Gun madness, solutions and people’s movements

[umbertino]

by: Len Yannielli

December 28 2012

NEWTOWN, Conn. - The bells seemed to toll exceeding slow. They instructed us to dwell on each loss, each human being. Hundreds huddled in the rain struggling to keep their candles lit as the bells peeled 26 times. It should have been 28 times.

I stood with a group of educators. Dawn Hochsprung was from my town, born and raised, and was a parent of five. As principal of Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, she tried to stop this latest mass killing spree.

In the United States, there are 87 gun deaths each day and 183 gun-related injuries each day according to the Center For Disease Control (CDC) and the University of Chicago. There were 17 mass shootings alone in 2012.

The insane proliferation of guns has to stop. The madness has to stop. The proposal of the National Rifle Association (NRA) to arm educators, nurses and librarians is a reflection of the madness. The descent people in the NRA need to replace this bellicose leadership or vacate the organization.

It is important to expose the economic roots of the madness. Why? Because therein lies the political base of the NRA leadership and the gun lobbies.

Fifty one thousand gun stores feed this madness. There are more gun stores than grocery stores or McDonald restaurants in the U.S. The gun manufacturer Smith & Wesson made $48.5 million dollars in the last quarter alone. Freedom Group, the gun manufacturer who makes the semi-automatic weapons including the one used in the Newtown school massacre, has made over $200 million dollars on such sales. Wall Street does the financing.

As we dig deeper into this issue, there is much more to discuss. Sports announcer Bob Costas raised the issue of gun proliferation after the gun shooting death of the partner of Jovan Belcher, the Kansas City Chiefs football player and Belcher's subsequent suicide. Costas was roundly criticized for his statement on guns and especially for doing it during a football game on national television. CNN polls on both issues are running 2:1 against Costas. Does the fact that both victims were African American account for some of this negative reaction? It happened before the tragic events in Newtown.

The Mayors Against Illegal Guns Campaign (www.DemandAPlan.org) offers some solutions. These include a criminal background check for every gun sold, a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines and making gun trafficking a federal crime. A ban on handguns must be added to this list. Why? Because when this was done, as evidenced by such countries as England, Germany and Australia, gun deaths dropped dramatically.

These steps would have the added effect of slowing the gun running into Mexico and the carnage in the border areas. The analysis and solutions put forward by the Connecticut Peace Council, especially the connection to the country's continual war footing, are a necessary addition.

We must never forget the students massacred at Ohio's Kent State University and Jackson State University in Mississippi, during the U.S. war in Vietnam. Our culture of violence has multiple roots. Profits are the taproot.

But the discussion and the actions can't stop here. An item that can be fought for in every state and town, and raised on the national level, is to make our parks gun free zones. This can be taken up with local park commissions and town councils. It is one way for mass participation and for deepening consciousness locally on the need to transition to a culture of peace.

Looking down the road, it is time for revolutionary boldness. Article I, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution states that, "The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each state, . . . " It does not say the Senate is to be a millionaires' playground. Too many representatives get support from the gun and military industrial complex lobbies. This has to end.

A Senate of Peoples' Movements, to replace the millionaires club, is a proposal that needs the light of day. Every two years primaries in each state nominate representatives of labor, peace, women, people of color, environment, LGBT and other social justice movements in some agreed upon ratio by a broad peoples' alliance of these organizations.

If such a Peoples' Senate were in place, would an event like the Newtown massacre have occurred? Would an assault weapon have been as readily available to the mentally unstable shooter?

Polls show 20% of our people are open to the ideas of socialism. How many would be open to a Peoples Senate proposal? I say many. It has the added benefit of showing the people of the USA that the left is striving for a culture of peace. Let's invite everyone to join the discussion and action.

Photo: Mothers and their children pay their respects at a memorial for shooting victims near Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., Dec. 15. (AP)

http://www.peoplesworld.org/gun-madness-solutions-and-people-s-movements/

[dog53]

by: Len Yannielli

December 28 2012

NEWTOWN, Conn. - The bells seemed to toll exceeding slow. They instructed us to dwell on each loss, each human being. Hundreds huddled in the rain struggling to keep their candles lit as the bells peeled 26 times. It should have been 28 times.

I stood with a group of educators. Dawn Hochsprung was from my town, born and raised, and was a parent of five. As principal of Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, she tried to stop this latest mass killing spree.

In the United States, there are 87 gun deaths each day and 183 gun-related injuries each day according to the Center For Disease Control (CDC) and the University of Chicago. There were 17 mass shootings alone in 2012.

The insane proliferation of guns has to stop. The madness has to stop. The proposal of the National Rifle Association (NRA) to arm educators, nurses and librarians is a reflection of the madness. The descent people in the NRA need to replace this bellicose leadership or vacate the organization.

It is important to expose the economic roots of the madness. Why? Because therein lies the political base of the NRA leadership and the gun lobbies.

Fifty one thousand gun stores feed this madness. There are more gun stores than grocery stores or McDonald restaurants in the U.S. The gun manufacturer Smith & Wesson made $48.5 million dollars in the last quarter alone. Freedom Group, the gun manufacturer who makes the semi-automatic weapons including the one used in the Newtown school massacre, has made over $200 million dollars on such sales. Wall Street does the financing.

As we dig deeper into this issue, there is much more to discuss. Sports announcer Bob Costas raised the issue of gun proliferation after the gun shooting death of the partner of Jovan Belcher, the Kansas City Chiefs football player and Belcher's subsequent suicide. Costas was roundly criticized for his statement on guns and especially for doing it during a football game on national television. CNN polls on both issues are running 2:1 against Costas. Does the fact that both victims were African American account for some of this negative reaction? It happened before the tragic events in Newtown.

The Mayors Against Illegal Guns Campaign (www.DemandAPlan.org) offers some solutions. These include a criminal background check for every gun sold, a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines and making gun trafficking a federal crime. A ban on handguns must be added to this list. Why? Because when this was done, as evidenced by such countries as England, Germany and Australia, gun deaths dropped dramatically.

These steps would have the added effect of slowing the gun running into Mexico and the carnage in the border areas. The analysis and solutions put forward by the Connecticut Peace Council, especially the connection to the country's continual war footing, are a necessary addition.

We must never forget the students massacred at Ohio's Kent State University and Jackson State University in Mississippi, during the U.S. war in Vietnam. Our culture of violence has multiple roots. Profits are the taproot.

But the discussion and the actions can't stop here. An item that can be fought for in every state and town, and raised on the national level, is to make our parks gun free zones. This can be taken up with local park commissions and town councils. It is one way for mass participation and for deepening consciousness locally on the need to transition to a culture of peace.

Looking down the road, it is time for revolutionary boldness. Article I, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution states that, "The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each state, . . . " It does not say the Senate is to be a millionaires' playground. Too many representatives get support from the gun and military industrial complex lobbies. This has to end.

A Senate of Peoples' Movements, to replace the millionaires club, is a proposal that needs the light of day. Every two years primaries in each state nominate representatives of labor, peace, women, people of color, environment, LGBT and other social justice movements in some agreed upon ratio by a broad peoples' alliance of these organizations.

If such a Peoples' Senate were in place, would an event like the Newtown massacre have occurred? Would an assault weapon have been as readily available to the mentally unstable shooter?

Polls show 20% of our people are open to the ideas of socialism. How many would be open to a Peoples Senate proposal? I say many. It has the added benefit of showing the people of the USA that the left is striving for a culture of peace. Let's invite everyone to join the discussion and action.

Photo: Mothers and their children pay their respects at a memorial for shooting victims near Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., Dec. 15. (AP)

http://www.peopleswo...le-s-movements/

That 20% can suck on the barrel of my AR

[bamagirl]

There is absolutely NO freakin gun madness, it's a people madness... What happened in Connecticut devastates me but I will in no way ever blame a gun for it... You can't blame the gun AND Adam Lanza and I choose to blame Adam for this travesty...

[chris600]

Mayors Against Illegal Guns Campaign (www.DemandAPlan.org) offers some solutions. These include a criminal background check for every gun sold, a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines and making gun trafficking a federal crime. A ban on handguns must be added to this list. Why? Because when this was done, as evidenced by such countries as England, Germany and Australia, gun deaths dropped dramatically.

I think you need to take a look at the history of those countries before you post these kind of statements. This statement is false, in fact crime went up dramatically when guns got banned in each of these countries.

[BobCoss]

Umbertino,

Did you read the entire post " the end of the gun control debate "? I doubt it but I wish you would go to Off Topic Post's & read it now! It addresses many of the issues your post proposes and explains exceedingly well why they are just insane. Please continue to bring the wonderful music to DV that you do but for one, I could really do without more anti gun posts from someone outside the US.

[bamagirl]

Shoot, I negged you BobCoss... please someone fix that.

[desimo]

If 20% is for socialism then 80% is against it. America has fought wars against socialism. My guns are mine and I plan to keep them. I would encourage ANYONE not to try and force socialism on Americans where they are thinking they will demand Americans to give up what they have worked hard to get to give to some lazy bum who is afraid of work.

[BobCoss]

desimo,

Our illustrious leader Obama is doing his best to force Socialism on us as we write these posts.

[Tripphood]

I don't say no, I say HELL NO, to socialism!!!!! And Umbertino, you don't live in the US and that means you have NO say as to what goes on here. If we wanted socialism we'd live where you do. No offense and no thanks! I LIKE MY FREEDOM AND WILL DO WHAT I HAVE TO TO DEFEND IT........can't do that without guns....oh, DAH, that is the very reason our government wants to strip us of our guns.

[Rayzur]

I know I have said this before and I am going to keep saying it... in hopes it will eventually direct the conversation to where is needs to be in order to prevent human directed violence of all kinds.... Personally I want to win this one and in doing so, one has to play the game of the opponent in order to prevail in identifying the issue and what needs to be done to solve it. It has very little to do with guns in and of themselves. Very very little. Yet we keep arguing it as if it has merit... You will not be able to cajole your opponent over into playing in your field. You have to go to his field and play by the rules of his fear, if you are to truly prevail in your rational discussion of truth, while at the same time, solving the real source of his problem....

Do youreally want to solve the debate about gun ownership, and give people a solutionto their bottom line which is fear. Logical discussions will not calm this histrionicirrational response of fear directed at the assumed source of that fear.

Of course first of all you have to decide if the goal is to really solve humandirected violence with a gun…. OR, if the goal is to use these incidents toprovoke fear to the degree that restricting gun ownership will be theconsequence of this provoked fear (c.f., JonJon’s post

http://dinarvets.com...ost__p__1083439

So,

Do people… legislators, Senators, and Congressman genuinely want to solve human directed violence by 75% ifnot greater? The answer is very simple. Dr. Bandura proved this beyond a shadowof doubt 60 years ago. There has never been a research studyt o disputethis finding nor a result in anything different. Add to that studies like theZimbardo study or Milgram… and it’s literally a no brainer how simple this isto solve:

Ban the manufacture of ALL video games in which human directed violence is thefoundation of the game. ALL games in which winning means the killing of otherhumans or human like characters. Ban the production of ALL games involving thetactical manipulation of weapons against human or human like subjects. Ban ALLgames that involve human destruction, harm, or grave bodily injury as anyaspect of the game, and by which points or other rewards are gained. Stop thelive internet inter-action wherein real humans play a game with other realhumans with the goal of killing humans represented in the game, in order to winthe game.

The issue is we are hard wiring kids exposed to this day in and day out.... duringthe development of their brain, (which continues up to age 25).... and absentthe development of neurophysiological structures (until age 25 generally) tomediate filter, or in younger teen ages, understand / apprehend fully theconsequences of their behavior, past that modeled. Take that hard wiring,exposure, and add to it the Zimbardo study,.... Stanford elite college agesocial science majors,..... friends brutalized their friends, classmates, andcolleagues, so severely it had to be called off and has never again beenrepeated. Throw in Millgram and you have the Trifecta....

I’ll bet ya year’s salary that most legislators, and the majority of the people freakingout about these tragic events have never seem much less played or understand, or apprehendthe sophistication of these games. Shame on them, for their ignorance as to themajor and significant driver of increasing human directed violence.

I advocate the banning the manufacture completely as opposed to ban the sale tominors, simply because these games will always end up in minors hands, by some means. Again the vastmajority of parents have no idea games of this sophistication, accuracy andpristine graphics even exist. Nor do they understand that banning the physicalownership of the games does not prohibit internet playing of some of them.Indeed I would love to meet the parent who prohibited the playing of thesegames by their teen son, and whose teen son didn’t end up playing it somewherebe it his friends house or the arcade the internet etc etc. Ban the manufactureof ALL these games.

And yes,I love playing these games as much as the next person, and am good at playingthem. I could play for hours… And when I really look at what I am doing…it isvery clear. I am simulating in very graphic accurate repetitive realistic form,the shooting of other human beings in order to win a game…….

It's true, as a military officer, my brain was clearly wired to do this by way ofinduction into the US military.... It was critical to do so in ensuring mysurvival in real war, against real people, and to maximize the winning of thisengagement. HOWEVER, be very clear the critical difference. First, mostentering the military are of an age wherein their brains have completed atleast 80 -90% of its neurophysiological development, including capacity forjudgment and inhibition. Second critical distinction: the military has a veryprecise and prescribed program of induction that has rules, regulations,structure, command and authority to which you must submit, obey, and withoutquestion follow, no matter what. This structure is beat into your brain longahead of anyone handing you the means to kill another human being. Why do yousuppose the military does not put a weapon in your hand the first day you showup for boot camp? Because there must first be an induction process, structure,chain of command and authority you learn to respect and obey and it has to be ahard-wired response…. And it must happen before instilling a skill set by whichyou kill other human beings.

Surely our legislators can wrap their brains around this. The first day of your trainingto kill other humans, you are issued uniform clothing and a drill sergeant. Noone but no one actually learning the art of warfare killing is issued a gun ontheir first day in the military. Absolutely no one sits in a killing simulatortheir first day in the military and starts to practice simulated killing ofrealistic humans. Ask the legislator to check how much they approved spendingon the US military for simulators, and why…. Why? Because they work very verywell in training young men and women (who have first been inducted andindoctrinated… in military command structure), the art of war in using weaponsand strategy to kill.

Think about it and ask you legislators to think about it.

How many people have missed that the US Military uses sims in order to teach militaryfolk the best and appropriate response. How many people miss that we use simsto teach real life response patterns.... Here is one tiny blurb (withreference) of many thousands of articles about the military using sims:

Simulators

EverySoldier whodeploys uses some type of simulation to train critical Warfighting skills. Simulations help our Soldiershone their skills, rehearse their missions and return to their families safelywhen their missions are complete. PEO STRI responds quickly to critical,emerging requirements with innovative acquisition and technology solutions andputs the power of simulation into the hands of America's War fighters!

http://www.peostri.army.mil/

How manypeople have missed that these video games are sims??!!!??? ... My God,the arguments about guns are beyond inept in the face of thousands of kidsengaged in thousands of sims, in which the goal is to shoot humans in order towin...

And thenwe wonder why some of these kids go out and shoot human beings???!!!!??.....

The isolated kids, those with developmentally delayed social skills, those withcommunication problems… and on and on mental challenges to some of theseyoungsters…. Oh and news brief for those who don’t read… The incident ofautistic spectrum disorders is increasing! What does that one celebritystate, something like 1 in 100…. Lets add even more gas to that fire…

Can anyone explain to me why we are ignoring that the most effective training aidfor killing is being handed to young kids, absent any structure, command orinduction as to actual appreciation, or understanding of their actions, and without regulation as to when or where to apply it.

And please don’t jump here with the better parenting argument. My parents werephenomenal interactive people and they could no more sit down with me and giveme an appreciation of my responsibility in warfare as I was practicing in thesim, than could the tooth fairy. I am “wired” to them as parents, not a commandauthority, presence, and structure trained in the discharge of warfare. Not tomention, as non-military, they wouldn’t have a clue as to how to go about it.

You who are military/vets know exactly what I am talking about. There is somealmost bizarre invisible thread that connects all of us (for whom service meantsomething). And the second you know that person in front of you is a vet, thereis a different internal response and relationship to them. Its like you fallinto this rhythm with each other, not having to have another spoken word.Surely some of our legislators are former military and understand to their coreabout bringing our team together before handing them a gun.

These video games have only the hard wiring effect on the undeveloped brain withabsolutely no built in safety mechanism regarding judgment, reality testing,consequences, or the full capacity for abstraction. There is nothing in placeto turn this off for kids. .... there is No structure, No authority...No testof responsibility, no training, Noother person in command of when to play and not play... Indeed I wonder howmany of these kids playing, even took or passed a Hunter Safety Course…or weretaken out hunting by their parent and that is for hunting game…..

So why is it a mystery, that we hand kids an entire well equipped military team,with the weapons and goal to kill other humans, and these kids with undevelopedbrain structures sufficient to mitigate an understanding or judgment as to whatthey are doing….are playing these games day in and out, hard wiring theirbrains, in repetitive instinctual patterns of response… in which the goal forwinning is to kill the human figures in front of you….. and then some of themgo out and actually use a gun to kill people who happen not to be realisticsimilar looking figures in a game. Where is the question as to what is theresponsible agent. It isn’t a gun.

Can anyone explain why in the name of God are we acting like this is rocketscience???

Why are we being stupid to the point of talking about controlling guns, when we areignoring the fact that we are hard wiring our kids to kill human beings inorder to win…. Unless of course the game the big people are playing is someagenda to make a gun grab, versus actually ending violence toward other humans.

If people really want to do something productive in ending this kind ofviolence.... they will ban the manufacture of human killing games.... andbefore you launch off on a point missing tangent, .... this is not a statementabout ending video games that have violent action.... Chasing a mushroom arounda cloud to evaporate it, or turtles around a sewer to have a sword fight, doesnot imitate a realistically lookingand acting human using a gun to pursue and then kill a another realisticallylooking and acting human… in order to win.

I'm blown away with the degree of ignorance displayed by many of ourelected officials, prevailing in these kinds of discussions.... Any one whowants to ban guns and ignore that we hard wire the brains of thousands of kidsduring their prime developmental years to "win" by way of killingother human beings, is... in my humble opinion, nothing short of a completemoron.... And frankly I believe that any legislator who does not take this intoconsideration should at least take responsibility for choosing to remain amoron and part of the problem.

People are struggling with how to end gun violence. I don't think a conversation aboutcontrolling guns makes any sense, when we are hard wiring kids, with developingbrains, to integrate a response pattern wherein killing humans means we win. Weare consistently, repetitively, and more graphically modeling violence againstother humans a means to win agame... Its not even in the context of war anymore. You can hack up into bloodypieces, the woman in the swimsuit on the beach in front of you.... in order towin And the target has become simply that human in front of you. These imagesare being hard wired (by way of incorporation into the developingneurophysiology) of our children playing these games. Why are we talking aboutcontrolling guns when we won't discuss what we are literally training ourchildren by one of the more effective means possible, that they are winners ifthey kill another human being.

Its truly a wonder we don’t have even more violent events involving young men andguns…. We certainly provide plenty of role modeling as to what one does withguns when they are in possession of one.

And Iknow I am going to hear from the gamers. I am one of them. And no I dont want togive up the games... And some would ask if I would give them up if it wouldbring about an end violence? I guess I would have to put my answer this way....I would much rather shoot an armed intruder going after my kids, than throw avideo game at him in hopes it will stop him.... So if I had a choice as to whatI would give up.... with all evidence pointing at games being far moreresponsible and conducive to violence than a gun..... If I had to choose selfdefense by shooting over throwing a game at someone..... I would have to say...I will give up the games....

[Rayzur]

Not sure how the tiny elves got into the last paragraphs... here is the rest in big people print...

I’ll bet ya year’s salary that most legislators, and the majority of the people freakingout about these tragic events have never seem much less played or understand, or apprehendthe sophistication of these games. Shame on them, for their ignorance as to themajor and significant driver of increasing human directed violence.

I advocate the banning the manufacture completely as opposed to ban the sale tominors, simply because these games will always end up in minors hands, by some means. Again the vastmajority of parents have no idea games of this sophistication, accuracy andpristine graphics even exist. Nor do they understand that banning the physicalownership of the games does not prohibit internet playing of some of them.Indeed I would love to meet the parent who prohibited the playing of thesegames by their teen son, and whose teen son didn’t end up playing it somewherebe it his friends house or the arcade the internet etc etc. Ban the manufactureof ALL these games.

And yes,I love playing these games as much as the next person, and am good at playing them. I could play for hours… And when I really look at what I am doing…it is very clear. I am simulating in very graphic accurate repetitive realistic form,the shooting of other human beings in order to win a game…….

It's true, as a military officer, my brain was clearly wired to do this by way ofinduction into the US military.... It was critical to do so in ensuring mysurvival in real war, against real people, and to maximize the winning of thisengagement. HOWEVER, be very clear the critical difference. First, mostentering the military are of an age wherein their brains have completed atleast 80 -90% of its neurophysiological development, including capacity forjudgment and inhibition. Second critical distinction: the military has a veryprecise and prescribed program of induction that has rules, regulations,structure, command and authority to which you must submit, obey, and withoutquestion follow, no matter what. This structure is beat into your brain longahead of anyone handing you the means to kill another human being. Why do yousuppose the military does not put a weapon in your hand the first day you showup for boot camp? Because there must first be an induction process, structure,chain of command and authority you learn to respect and obey and it has to be ahard-wired response…. And it must happen before instilling a skill set by whichyou kill other human beings.

Surely our legislators can wrap their brains around this. The first day of your trainingto kill other humans, you are issued uniform clothing and a drill sergeant. Noone but no one actually learning the art of warfare killing is issued a gun ontheir first day in the military. Absolutely no one sits in a killing simulatortheir first day in the military and starts to practice simulated killing ofrealistic humans. Ask the legislator to check how much they approved spendingon the US military for simulators, and why…. Why? Because they work very verywell in training young men and women (who have first been inducted andindoctrinated… in military command structure), the art of war in using weaponsand strategy to kill.

Think about it and ask you legislators to think about it.

How many people have missed that the US Military uses sims in order to teach militaryfolk the best and appropriate response. How many people miss that we use simsto teach real life response patterns.... Here is one tiny blurb (withreference) of many thousands of articles about the military using sims:

Simulators

EverySoldier whodeploys uses some type of simulation to train critical Warfighting skills. Simulations help our Soldiershone their skills, rehearse their missions and return to their families safelywhen their missions are complete. PEO STRI responds quickly to critical,emerging requirements with innovative acquisition and technology solutions andputs the power of simulation into the hands of America's War fighters!

http://www.peostri.army.mil/

How manypeople have missed that these video games are sims??!!!??? ... My God, the arguments about guns are beyond inept in the face of thousands of kidsengaged in thousands of sims, in which the goal is to shoot humans in order towin...

And thenwe wonder why some of these kids go out and shoot human beings???!!!!??.....

The isolated kids, those with developmentally delayed social skills, those withcommunication problems… and on and on mental challenges to some of theseyoungsters…. Oh and news brief for those who don’t read… The incident ofautistic spectrum disorders is increasing! What does that one celebritystate, something like 1 in 100…. Lets add even more gas to that fire…

Can anyone explain to me why we are ignoring that the most effective training aidfor killing is being handed to young kids, absent any structure, command orinduction as to actual appreciation, or understanding of their actions, and without regulation as to when or where to apply it.

And please don’t jump here with the better parenting argument. My parents werephenomenal interactive people and they could no more sit down with me and giveme an appreciation of my responsibility in warfare as I was practicing in thesim, than could the tooth fairy. I am “wired” to them as parents, not a commandauthority, presence, and structure trained in the discharge of warfare. Not tomention, as non-military, they wouldn’t have a clue as to how to go about it.

You who are military/vets know exactly what I am talking about. There is somealmost bizarre invisible thread that connects all of us (for whom service meantsomething). And the second you know that person in front of you is a vet, thereis a different internal response and relationship to them. Its like you fallinto this rhythm with each other, not having to have another spoken word.Surely some of our legislators are former military and understand to their core about bringing our team together before handing them a gun.

These video games have only the hard wiring effect on the undeveloped brain withabsolutely no built in safety mechanism regarding judgment, reality testing,consequences, or the full capacity for abstraction. There is nothing in placeto turn this off for kids. .... there is No structure, No authority...No testof responsibility, no training, Noother person in command of when to play and not play... Indeed I wonder howmany of these kids playing, even took or passed a Hunter Safety Course…or weretaken out hunting by their parent and that is for hunting game…..

So why is it a mystery, that we hand kids an entire well equipped military team,with the weapons and goal to kill other humans, and these kids with undevelopedbrain structures sufficient to mitigate an understanding or judgment as to whatthey are doing….are playing these games day in and out, hard wiring theirbrains, in repetitive instinctual patterns of response… in which the goal forwinning is to kill the human figures in front of you….. and then some of themgo out and actually use a gun to kill people who happen not to be realisticsimilar looking figures in a game. Where is the question as to what is theresponsible agent. It isn’t a gun.

Can anyone explain why in the name of God are we acting like this is rocket science???

Why are we being stupid to the point of talking about controlling guns, when we areignoring the fact that we are hard wiring our kids to kill human beings inorder to win…. Unless of course the game the big people are playing is someagenda to make a gun grab, versus actually ending violence toward other humans.

If people really want to do something productive in ending this kind ofviolence.... they will ban the manufacture of human killing games.... andbefore you launch off on a point missing tangent, .... this is not a statementabout ending video games that have violent action.... Chasing a mushroom arounda cloud to evaporate it, or turtles around a sewer to have a sword fight, doesnot imitate a realistically lookingand acting human using a gun to pursue and then kill a another realisticallylooking and acting human… in order to win.

I'm blown away with the degree of ignorance displayed by many of ourelected officials, prevailing in these kinds of discussions.... Any one whowants to ban guns and ignore that we hard wire the brains of thousands of kidsduring their prime developmental years to "win" by way of killingother human beings, is... in my humble opinion, nothing short of a completemoron.... And frankly I believe that any legislator who does not take this intoconsideration should at least take responsibility for choosing to remain amoron and part of the problem.

People are struggling with how to end gun violence. I don't think a conversation aboutcontrolling guns makes any sense, when we are hard wiring kids, with developingbrains, to integrate a response pattern wherein killing humans means we win. Weare consistently, repetitively, and more graphically modeling violence againstother humans a means to win agame... Its not even in the context of war anymore. You can hack up into bloodypieces, the woman in the swimsuit on the beach in front of you.... in order towin And the target has become simply that human in front of you. These imagesare being hard wired (by way of incorporation into the developingneurophysiology) of our children playing these games. Why are we talking aboutcontrolling guns when we won't discuss what we are literally training our children by one of the more effective means possible, that they are winners ifthey kill another human being.

Its truly a wonder we don’t have even more violent events involving young men andguns…. We certainly provide plenty of role modeling as to what one does withguns when they are in possession of one.

And Iknow I am going to hear from the gamers. I am one of them. And no I dont want togive up the games... And some would ask if I would give them up if it wouldbring about an end violence? I guess I would have to put my answer this way....I would much rather shoot an armed intruder going after my kids, than throw avideo game at him in hopes it will stop him.... So if I had a choice as to whatI would give up.... with all evidence pointing at games being far moreresponsible and conducive to violence than a gun..... If I had to choose selfdefense by shooting over throwing a game at someone..... I would have to say...I will give up the games....

[DaveH]

Shoot, I negged you BobCoss... please someone fix that.

I fixed it for you, typical, Louisiana fixin Bama stuff

You wont believe this but am rooting for Bama cuz my favorite team is the one playing notre dame, go SEC

As far as the guns are concerned, we need to look at several things, Chicago, guns are illegal, period, 500 murders in 2012.

History, Hitler, Stalin and Mao banned guns and weapons in their respective countries, the result was dictatorships where millions were murdered by the govt of there respective countries because they had no way to defend themselves.

Recently someone(and i cant remember if it was michael moore, piers morgan or some other ill informed dumbas)said that the united states citizens dont need guns, why would we? We have never been invaded. No kidding. We have never been invaded because we have guns. The Japanese did not invade after Pearl because they thought every american was armed.

Ronald Reagan said "The greatest invitation to war, is a sign of weakness".

Why does everyone want to take our guns? To make us safe? Is Chicago safe? Guns are illegal. 500 murders does not sound safe.

If you choose to not have a gun, that is your choice and i will stand up for your choice.

I choose a different path. I choose to be able to defend myself and my family. I hope I never have to.

We have a constitution that has worked for us for many years. Who has the right to say that some of the constitution no longer suits them?

The constitution is still fully relevant, every last word of it.

If you dont like guns, dont buy one. If you dont like the United States, the NRA or our constitution, move.

God Bless and best wishes for a Happy and prosperous New Year to all DV members.

[sxsess]

That 20% can suck on the barrel of my AR

Losers, freeloaders, welfare recipients, etc love socialism because these people exist off the backs of others. Nothing but pathetic parasites that have zero dignity or self respect like some on this board. I don't need to name names because we all know who I'm referring to. Dog I'm right with you. I own many weapons including an assortment of assault rifles. I didn't purchase them because there beautiful. We far outnumber these worthless liberals so I laugh at the talk of gun control. To me and many of my friends and family it's a joke. Fight the good fight brother.

[bamagirl]

Awww Dave, SEC Rocks!! Roll Tide Roll... I can hardly wait!!! Totally agree 110% with the rest of your post..

[markb57]

sxsess... A THOUSAND +'S FOR YOU!

[DaveH]

Losers, freeloaders, welfare recipients, etc love socialism because these people exist off the backs of others. Nothing but pathetic parasites that have zero dignity or self respect like some on this board. I don't need to name names because we all know who I'm referring to. Dog I'm right with you. I own many weapons including an assortment of assault rifles. I didn't purchase them because there beautiful. We far outnumber these worthless liberals so I laugh at the talk of gun control. To me and many of my friends and family it's a joke. Fight the good fight brother.

Name calling is not part of "fighting the good fight" as you put it.

Being polite, respectful and providing an intelligent argument, that is fighting the good fight, until words are no longer relevant. Until then, no name calling, even if the name calling is not directed at any particular individual for the moment.

Thank you

[duty.rec]

Gun's do not Kill.

It is people who kill.

Go RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

[kliklok00]

Dr. Bandura didn't prove anything...he postulated the "social learning theory" and I would like to emphasize the word "theory." I don't claim to understand everything he wrote, but it is my understanding that in his theory observational learning occurred in relation to three models; live model, verbal instruction, symbolic. Your argument seems to concern itself with the symbolic. While his test subjects did indeed exhibit aggressive behavior after watching others act out aggressively, a later study (in 1965) showed that aggressive behavior diminished when the aggressors were punished for their behavior...in other words, disciplining the children (test subjects) stopped the aggressive behavior.

My point...in my opinion, violent video games, sims, etc. surely influence youngsters to exhibit aggressive behavior, but it is the LACK OF DISCIPLINE (in school, within the family itself, etc.) that allows the aggressive behavior to go unchecked. Our society has allowed it's moral code of conduct to become so diluted, it (society) has difficulty defining "good" and "bad." This lack of definition is the root cause for the lack of discipline. The sad thing is our problem is like a snowball rolling down hill...and your call for banning all the things you want banned sort of prove my point---instead of holding PEOPLE (including and especially children) accountable for their actions (in this case, violent behavior), the answer is to ban things. Someone uses a gun to shoot people---ban guns. The shooter? He spends time...years and years and years of time...in court, in jail, in hospitals. The news media turn the shooters into celebrities (look at OJ Simpson as an example). Do we lay blame on the shooter? Nope...we excuse their behavior to a certain degree by blaming their actions on violent video games. I call BS on that.

The army officer who shot and killed all those people on base in Texas...hasn't even started his trial yet...why? He doesn't want to shave his beard. 11 people dead, 30+ wounded, and instead of holding him accountable, our young children see this guy twiddling his fingers. He should have been shot and killed immediately.

It is late and I'm beginning to ramble a little (I'm tired). I'm just trying to argue against your idea that Bandura proved anything beyond a shadow of a doubt with his Social Learning Theory. His theory has great merit...but if you want to use his theory as the model for solving our violent behavior in society, you cannot toss out subsequent studies that show punishment diminishes learned violent behavior.

Good night!

[Rayzur]

Kliklok00.. thanks much for showing me the weaknesses in the post. Helps me to refine it and hone it to something that will provide focus on the real target of concern, not derail folks into sidebar discussions or debate, and get closer to a surgical strike at the heart of it all.

I didn't want to turn this into a reference paper and cite the volumes of research (complete with foot notes). I chose Bandura and I see I may have either inadvertently over stated in taking shortcuts to what I knew would be a long post.... or was sloppy in the way I said it.... And maybe Bandura was not the best rep of the concept... though he is probably the most well known of the group...

So in direct response to some of your observations, in research social science you never really "prove" anything. You reject the null hypothesis. That is as close to proving something as you will ever get in real social science research. Bandura indeed postulated... as he rejected the null hypothesis. No one in any of the sciences has or will ever prove anything in the true sense of the word prove and definitely never beyond a shadow of a doubt. Research in its attempts to understand the world around us on any level lives an existence in the theoretical... Chaos Physics is theory, Quantum theory uses many different mathematical approaches in its discussion of the nature of energy levels in microscopic systems... quantum mechanics is theory. Models of economic theory have taken us DV'ers in many directions, as there are several major theories of economy that can be applied (right or wrong) in helping to understanding the process we call an RV. And on and on.... (we can discuss the practical application of sciences if you want, but that is volumes I am trying to avoid herein)

I will have to work on this part of the discussion so thanks for pointing that out. Probably a good time to get those ducks in a row and work that out. In the meantime, it also occurs to me that because you've never seen my vitae or don't know my background, why should you trust that I have the expertise to postulate this opinion. I'm not sure how to resolve that one. I really don't know what I could say that would give you the confidence in knowing that I would very easily be able to hold my own in front of the senate testifying as an expert on this very opinion. I don't think I will be able to remedy that disparity.

Your presumption on discipline assumes that these kids showed behavior that should have been disciplined. While I would have to respectfully disagree on the entire platform of your position in this regard, I understand why it is tempting to make this point. In reply, often times people make the observation that all these kids who have committed these violent crimes have many things in common. They state this as if its some kind of intellectual euphony. What these Einsteins fail to point out, is that 500 thousand other kids who did not commit violent mass murder also show these common behaviors. It would be like saying all of these violent mass homicidal kids eat white bread. So do half a million other kids. What about these kids eating white bread makes them different. Guess what? No one knows yet. They have only hypotheses... postulation, and a bit of profiling.... however, none of the latter is even enough to be mutually inclusive or exclusive. This is not to say your arguments about holding people accountable for their behavior is invalid... but it is to say that discipline is not a solution to this particular problem. And in the opinion of my expertise, holding kids 10 years and under accountable as adults is like holding a paraplegic accountable to preform the same as his able bodied buddies (and yes there are always exceptions to generalities).

I'll have to further review my post in determining what it was I said that led you to believe I was excusing anyone's behavior, to any degree by blaming video games. I don't really care about excusing or blaming, I'm interested in preventing, as are thousands of other people around the country. However, unlike many of them, I am not settling on the knee jerk reaction to guns as the source of the problem, and instead, am targeting a far more salient source of the problem. If you are countering by saying, discipline is the remedy to either one of these, then again, I would have to respectfully disagree on so many different levels. If you could tell me what about my post led you to think I was providing excuse by way of blame, it would help me clean it up more.

Your example of the army officer who killed many people in Texas might tempt someone to negate the statements made about military induction. While no system is perfect and given the numbers of people inducted, this is a tiny fraction of those who do not respond.... it is more noteworthy to point out this officer was a medical officer and therein did not go through military training. He instead went to a 2 week salute and uniform school (maybe its a few weeks longer now), for medical personal who are army officers. They are not combat trained nor would they assume command of combat or military warfare operations. Their responsibility would be to treat wounded military, and not have command function of any activity other than that. In that sense he is Army with Officer rank, but is not an Army Officer in the sense of a military officer trained in warfare.

Thanks for the time you took in giving feedback, it helps me to drill down.. and I know I have to edit out some of the redundancy before final.... thanks

[sportfisher]

Umb...........are you really a California liberal/socialist/commie pretending to be a foreigner?

[Farwould]

wow sportfisher why say such things all he did was bring a story in for folks to read.

I also noticed that you are from california as well.

doesnt everyone have a right to free speech? bash folks because they dont think like you?

I hate guns period.So bash me too? wow man switch to decaf.

I am glad umbertino let me be his friend.Why do folks say the things that they do about this man?

Love and Peace sportfisher Love and Peace.

God Bless you

[umbertino]

Umb...........are you really a California liberal/socialist/commie pretending to be a foreigner?

No.. not from California....

I am, as you put it, "a Foreigner" ( if by that you mean non-US)

wow sportfisher why say such things all he did was bring a story in for folks to read.

I also noticed that you are from california as well.

doesnt everyone have a right to free speech? bash folks because they dont think like you?

I hate guns period.So bash me too? wow man switch to decaf.

I am glad umbertino let me be his friend.Why do folks say the things that they do about this man?

Love and Peace sportfisher Love and Peace.

God Bless you

Thanks.

Edited December 30, 2012 by umbertino

[tommy17]

Umbertino, your communist ass can suck on the business end of any one of my firearms, even my little single shot 410.

well said , you won't find alot of people disagreeing with you.

[Farwould]

are you ?

So does this mean you would turn in your guns?

[Rayzur]

are you ?

Why are you using such sophomoric jacked up antics to divert the direction of such an important and critical discussion? I have no idea if you are pro or con gun ownership, and fortunately there aren't many like you who try to take the focus off what is truly important in this matter. I'm not sure if it's your typical approach to employ a strategy of name calling to conceal that you are at a loss for words? If so, please allow me to be the first to suggest that this is not the caliber of interaction we need in standing together as a united people in confronting the mounting threat to our constitutional freedom and liberty.