Spit in the DV Punch Bowl

[Rayzur]

Early this morning I posted a reply in another thread ... and after thinking about it, I really think it should stand on its own. DV is my home and I have as much responsibility as the next guy to keep it the kind of place I can be proud to call home. Lest my previous post be overcome with specifics to the post of the reply, I thought I would put it out here in the general world for your consideration:

 

Of late, DV threads seem to be increasingly infected with anger stunningly disproportionate to another's sentiments or thoughts...with all kinds of negatively stinging stuff projected onto that other person. Its rarely clear what triggers the wrath of these respondents, or if they inaccurately or inappropriately filter what someone says because they genuinely misunderstand what is being said, or they simply need a target for their anger. There is a clearly growing tendency to spin differing thoughts or beliefs into absurd, illogical extremes that have nothing what so ever to do with the intention of the poster. When there is no substantive information offered in reply, and only rage filled character assassination, (apart from wondering what drives the needs of the respondent), any hope of respectful exchange through thoughtful discussion is contaminated with meaningless emotional diatribe.

Sometimes I wonder how many other people notice the mounting death toll of creativity slaughtered by the stinging bullets of rage directed at those who believe different. My hide is as tough as the next guys' and probably tougher than the majority of those I meet here and in the world.... Be advised, that's not always such a great thing relative to what it takes to develop that, in keeping the world safe so you can sleep at night. There's no question I could verbally eviscerate to the point of genuine damage in the blink of an eye, leaving a crumbled carcass of dissent behind. But why would I??? Great, I'm tough, and surgically precise, but why should I have to prove that. Why would I want to strike and hammer down someone to the point of silence, because they don't share my view of something? I'm here to connect with others, and if anything have a responsibility for restraint. I come in here to chat with people I've come to know as friends, to learn about the world, figure out wtf is going with the dinar, and push the limits of my understanding. I'm not going to understand the world any better than my own limitations if there is no one left to give a different perspective, or idea or thought or belief. I wear body armor all day. Why should I have to expect it necessary to keep it on.... in order to come in here and connect with friends, and colleagues? Like I said, I'm as tough as the next guy, but if human connection, learning and respectful dissent continues down this path of pizzzy name calling and attacks, I'd just soon go back to work and get paid to watch it.

Some of our greatest moments of accomplishment as a civilization were borne out of disagreement as we cast off old paradigms in favour of new ways to look at the world. The burst of creative energy so uplifting... the excitement of each new world that could only come because of disagreement.

DV used to be such a great place to go to and enjoy the creative energy of thoughtful, respectful disagreement....I disagreed with you, I learned from you... and examining my own beliefs, I even learned a little bit more about myself.... Some of the very people I deeply disagreed with 3 years ago, are today the very same people I respect, go to with questions, and have come to consider friends.... I can name names of the people I wanted to punch out, ....that I would now defend with my life....Some of us even discovered that despite our differences....there were many things we shared...

DV used to be such a great place to go to and enjoy the creative energy of thoughtful, respectful disagreement. When did we start confusing spirited debate of substance, with angry mob attacks for expressing something different. any more it's like being trapped in a theatre and forced to watch What Ever Happened to Baby Jane in this endless loop that plays over and over again, no matter what seat you're in.. And just when you think its safe to share what's on your mind, someone chokes the living sheeeet out of your canary.

I don't understand the mob mentality showing up more frequently... My hats off to the guys who have apparent targets on their backs... predictably knocked down, with the gang jumping in and trading slams/kicks. It is not a respectful exchange of opinions in disagreement,.... in far too many threads, any hope of thoughtful exchange is slaughtered early on in any variety of ways, by any variety of people, who are then joined by other people, who have to get in one more kick/slam weighing in their thought about the other's thought..... and half the frickin time, they are dead wrong about the accuracy of what the person was saying!! Its like watching Brazil... It's like watching a bad version of the Roman Inquisition, or some B movie rendition of the Salem Witch Hunt. Its sad there are emerging threads where members are pleading with each other to be respectful, setting up a whole set of rules.... that would have never been necessary a year ago.

For what its worth, I really don't care to hear anyone's opinion about me or anyone else as a person, for any reason, least of which, because of what I/they believe. I find it annoying that people think they have that right, or I care, or am interested in their characterological autopsy of someone else. When did we start confusing an opinion about someone as a person .....because their beliefs/thoughts/feelings differed ..... with actual information about the actual issue from a different perspective, or different information, or points of discussion. How in the helllll does anyone benefit in learning, by watching one person call another person names...., How do I learn about an issue, or drill down on it... or subject my own beliefs to examination....midst a slander party... By what authority does anyone even assume they have that right. Let me help you with that, they don't. Speaking generally and not to any one or ones specifically or in particular...Not to put to fine a point on it: I don't like the way you think, I don't like your life, I don't like your life choices, I don't like your level of emotional development, I don't like your capacity for insight, I don't like your car, I don't even like where you live..... so how in the world could you possibly conclude I want to hear your opinion about someone else as a person, because their/ life beliefs are different from yours.

Sure I can put the offenders on ignore, and I can make that list as long as I like or need to.... Unfortunately the killing fields they leave in their wake, are starting to consume the threads to the point it becomes difficult, energy draining /consumptive trying to find meaningful discussion that hasn't been whizzed on killing the vibrancy / any hint of an uplifting tone. Maybe I spend too much time in Off Topics.... though it used to be full of fields ripe with opportunity for discovery, creativity, sharing and information exchange about some amazing and interesting stuff....

I take the time to say this... with the hope that together, as DV members, we make a commitment to stop this virus before it infects whatever remains of respectful, thoughtful discussion. If I didnt care, if I didn't want to be part of keeping it the exceptional place it is and so many of us call home... I wouldn't take the time to say any of this....I can't say enough good about how much I've learned from so many of you, how amazing the dedication to bring good research in for consideration, or inspiring the amount of time and energy spent pondering in reply. It's so uplifting to know when I have a real question or issue to solve, there are so many intelligent, heart felt people so willing to help. So much of themselves and time they are willing to freely share. I'm so grateful for the variety of information, stuff I would have never known about, yet is so much a part of our lives. I miss people who used to bring in the most off the wall... yet absolutely fascinating mind blowing information that would blow up the boxes of assumptions.... Tesla's work v Einstein.... that kind of stuff...

This is not just about one person or one thread... its about our community as a whole... Actually, its really about the oppression of creativity, the drudgery of thinking we have to hammer everyone into the box we find comfortable, and its about encouraging the freedom of expression without having to fear that you will be hammered as a person, for having done so. It takes way too much energy, thought and time in the exchange of information and thoughts, to have to walk on egg shells with hopes of avoiding the wrath, ire, or attacks from the angry miserable ninjas.... Smash my ideas into pieces, giving me the opportunity to refine.... but don't think it is anymore okay to smash me as a person because you're too lazy to find countering ideas/reasoning/information or perspectives. Disagree with my ideas, or thoughts, ...but don't assume you have the right to tell me who I am as a person for having them... Your arrogance will far outshine any point you were hoping to make. Far too many people are becoming way too comfortable thinking its okay to make a person wrong, in order to serve furthering some point they are needing to make. Make the point, and leave the person out of it. And if you can't, then step away until you can.

Okay, that's what I've been thinking...

 

Blessings one and all ~~

 

 

[jomans]

Hey Rayzer,

 

Thanks for your input. However, I do think the Mods do a great job of monitoring and policing the forum(s). In practicing freedom of speech on this site, there is a lot of leeway to express opinions, as it should be. I trust the Mods judgement(s). 

[umbertino]

Quote

Sometimes I wonder how many other people notice the mounting death toll of creativity slaughtered by the stinging bullets of rage directed at those who believe different.

End Quote

Agreed in principle ( of course)...But  that's the story of this world ( Planet Earth) and we are children of this world and its thousands and thousands of years living this way.

[zzztop]

I think you need to get a thicker skin.  It is the internet afterall.  Don't take things too personally.  JMO of course.

[WorkerBee]

Wow that was really thoughtful.  But when all is said and done, they paying members have more weight than non paying members.  The smart non paying  ones learn how to be diplomatic, or, "poof be gone".  Seen them come and seen them go, and that is just how it is.  Diplomacy is a learned skill.  I enjoy a good heated debate, I just wish some could take the hits without being cry babies about it.  

 

No one on this site can deny we've lost a lot of intelligent people because of it.  

 

I do have to say, this site is one of the best because they do allow some anti-RV views (as long as they are presented courteously).   I ain't even doing spell check on this, lol.

[dog53]

If one of them  might be me girl. i apologize Its a generation thing. I have always called a spade a spade

Dont mean to sound to gruff. Mostly just growling and posturing. Guy thing Ya know.  

But with that being said Razur theres alot going on. People in the know.

Know whats going on in this country

We have a rouge GOVT running the country

Shats never been this F- up

Sorry kiddo Im gonna call a dumba$$ a Dumba$$ 

 

 

Chew tobaco

Chew tobaco

Chew tobaco 

 

Spit 

Edited September 12, 2013 by dog53

[Maggie123]

docneedles

docneedles

Senior Member

• 
• Members
• 172 posts

Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:51 PM

 

my opinion. I loved the days when Yota brought a news article over, Strker interpreted it, healthy debate ensued and we all went to work feeling like we have read something intelligent before going to work.

You would read Sonny, Bravo, Mailman, Med. people who knew something. 

 

I certainly don't know anything. I have no contacts. Again, I know nothing. 

 

What I don't like is what is happening to this site, yes, I know I am going to be negged, and it is o.k. because I have decided not to renew my V.I. P..

 

There is now a clique. People with a diatribe of political agenda that we hear over and over again. We hear the same opinions crammed down our throat, without any possibility of a healthy debate as before. Most of the time I agree with what is being said (I am conservative) but certainly not with the delivery. It seems like certain people need to take a class on negotiation and flex on always being right. remember, that ol win, win philosophy, so everyone feels like they have been heard.

 

So here is my stupidity. I like hearing Kaperoni and Randy Koonce. Yes, I know they are wrong. Yes I know that. Why do I like them? I like their delivery (most of the time, not all)

 

What do I not like and skip the thread,  if people are so polite to put their name in the title? I don't like Terry K, Okie, blue wolf, Poppy (fingernails on a chalkboard).

 

So, when i bow out at the end of this month, you will know my opinion. Not that it matters.

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/160333-kaperoni-confirmation-the-notes-we-hold-will-retain-the-printed-value/page-3#ixzz2edMGnne3

 

I read your post Doc and I wanted to respond... I have always enjoyed your positive posts and I don't want you to go.

 

Yes I miss the old days and all the great members we've lost too. Things were a lot different during those days.

 

Mostly good conversations and a friendly feeling here, almost like a DV family. Not so much anymore.

 

Your opinion matters to me... just so you know.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Maggie123

[SgtFuryUSCZ]

If one of them  might be me girl. i apologize Its a generation thing. I have always called a spade a spade

Dont mean to sound to gruff. Mostly just growling and posturing. Guy thing Ya know.  

But with that being said Razur theres alot going on. People in the know.

Know whats going on in this country

We have a rouge GOVT running the country

Shats never been this F- up

Sorry kiddo Im gonna call a dumba$$ a Dumba$$ 

 

 

Chew tobaco

Chew tobaco

Chew tobaco 

 

Spit 

 

[Rayzur]

If one of them  might be me girl. i apologize Its a generation thing. I have always called a spade a spade

Dont mean to sound to gruff. Mostly just growling and posturing. Guy thing Ya know.  

But with that being said Razur theres alot going on. People in the know.

Know whats going on in this country

We have a rouge GOVT running the country

Shats never been this F- up

Sorry kiddo Im gonna call a dumba$$ a Dumba$$ 

 

 

Chew tobaco

Chew tobaco

Chew tobaco 

 

Spit 

 

No idea what others have said and yours is the first reply I landed on....

Not even remotely.... you have very strong ideas.... so do I so do a lot of people.... and you put them out there.... lots of us throw out strong thoughts and ideas....thank God.... how do we learn. And its even possible you've called my idea, or my thought stupid, or moronic, or whatever.... and maybe it was.....but you never directed that at me as a person for having those ideas....  I don't ever recall you using character assassination of anyone one person in here / a DV member as a means of disagreeing with them....

 

Actually what I have noticed is you coming in and trying to lighten things up, and keep us on track ... or at least take some of the energy out of attacks some times....Actually when I think of you in the most recent days... this comes to mind (your entry comes at about the 15 second mark)

 

I for one appreciate it greatly....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V8OpGgSyWg

Edited September 12, 2013 by Rayzur

[SnowGlobe7]

I know sometime this thing gets tough...on all of us. I have stepped away for a while myself.

 

Myself, I was quite offended the other day so Yes I totally see what you are saying.

 

What is that saying it always gets worse before it get better.,,,,maybe this is the sign that this thing is going to pop.

 

If not....I hear dog has cookies...maybe you can make him share

[Rayzur]

Hey Rayzer,

 

Thanks for your input. However, I do think the Mods do a great job of monitoring and policing the forum(s). In practicing freedom of speech on this site, there is a lot of leeway to express opinions, as it should be. I trust the Mods judgement(s). 

 

Good point, I took out a piece (trying to be brief) saying the mods do an excellent job and I can't say enough good. That nonetheless does not obviate my responsibility as a family member to encourage that which we are all so proud of as representing us as a community. .... I don't like it when we can't keep our own stuff together such that we have to call on a mod to come in and take on the parent role.... Their value is far greater than that....   And to be sure, there is no question as to their judgement... and I hope no one would read any of this as calling it into question... That stands completely apart from my responsibility to participate in keeping this the best site out there.

 

Thanks for helping to make that clear..

 

docneedles

docneedles

Senior Member

• 
• Members
• 172 posts

Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:51 PM

 

my opinion. I loved the days when Yota brought a news article over, Strker interpreted it, healthy debate ensued and we all went to work feeling like we have read something intelligent before going to work.

You would read Sonny, Bravo, Mailman, Med. people who knew something. 

 

I certainly don't know anything. I have no contacts. Again, I know nothing. 

 

What I don't like is what is happening to this site, yes, I know I am going to be negged, and it is o.k. because I have decided not to renew my V.I. P..

 

There is now a clique. People with a diatribe of political agenda that we hear over and over again. We hear the same opinions crammed down our throat, without any possibility of a healthy debate as before. Most of the time I agree with what is being said (I am conservative) but certainly not with the delivery. It seems like certain people need to take a class on negotiation and flex on always being right. remember, that ol win, win philosophy, so everyone feels like they have been heard.

 

So here is my stupidity. I like hearing Kaperoni and Randy Koonce. Yes, I know they are wrong. Yes I know that. Why do I like them? I like their delivery (most of the time, not all)

 

What do I not like and skip the thread,  if people are so polite to put their name in the title? I don't like Terry K, Okie, blue wolf, Poppy (fingernails on a chalkboard).

 

So, when i bow out at the end of this month, you will know my opinion. Not that it matters.

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/160333-kaperoni-confirmation-the-notes-we-hold-will-retain-the-printed-value/page-3#ixzz2edMGnne3

 

I read your post Doc and I wanted to respond... I have always enjoyed your positive posts and I don't want you to go.

 

Yes I miss the old days and all the great members we've lost too. Things were a lot different during those days.

 

Mostly good conversations and a friendly feeling here, almost like a DV family. Not so much anymore.

 

Your opinion matters to me... just so you know.

 

 

Maggie, thanks for bringing that up..... and I too hope DocNeedles will reconsider... I likewise  enjoyed and benefited from  the thoughtful contributions he brought into our lives. And interesting you bring this in here.... when I read his post, it was the straw that led to my posting something on my mind for a long time... I don't want to see any more valuable contributing people leave this site...... And SnowGlobe, I am really really glad you decided to take a break instead of simply going away.... I honestly don't recall how much you and I agree or disagree or even if that's put out there .... But I do know you are one of the people I respect, are a familiar face, an opinion I trust as genuine and  part of the DV fabric.... rest if you must... but please don't take too long before you come back and join us

[Nelg]

Have a friend of mine, 86 yr old, fought in the Pacific during WWII, who has a saying I like.  He can say it and get away with it.  I don't think I could.  He says, "No one is smart enough to hurt my feelings."  I've never seen him upset at anything.  

 

There are some writers on the blogs who do not know how to express their disagreements with what others post.  They are more intent on getting a laugh than posting anything substantial.  Poking fun is the only thing they know.  Disagreement are settled by "destroying" the other person.  That can't literally "poke" someone, so they write the barbs and character assignation. 

 

Hopefully this will "wake people up" to be courteous when they write.   

[Thaiexpat]

Present company excluded, right?

[DiveDeepSix]

Great post Rayzur,

 

I might come off sometimes as a real @$$, well most of the times just a smart @$$, and I do defend my opinions to the end usually, but those who know me also know that it's nothing personal, at least I hope they know that.

 

I rib Hame, Mags, Rights, Lostenso (aka Tiff, aka Black Swan) and company all the time and I expect it back just as much, that's what makes it so much fun to debate and discuss things here on DV, but I wish none of them anything less then the best life has to offer, after all we are all still human and I realize we all have feelings, emotions, stories, loved ones, etc. even though our opinions may be very different.  So here is to y'all!!    Well except for Shabs (aka Jason Bourne) j/k I love ribbing you the most!!!

 

I'm hoping we get to finish this ride soon and actually continue some of these conversations face to face at a big post RV party somewhere, and I will be the first to buy y'all a drink no matter your DV reputation.

 

Like Dog says though and I agree totally, I call a spade a spade though as well.  Our country is in the hurt bag and it's because of lousy attitudes in certain parties, the venom spewed is only increased by the lack of willingness to even try and understand what's really going on by the opposite party.  This country has never been more divided then it has been these last few years, it's really very sad, we need to come together as a nation before it's to late and turn this thing around for all OUR future generations.  God Bless America!!!

 

Now back to the debates and the bashings I love so much here on DV just remember it's nothing personal, life is way to short to take anything to seriously!!     

[Rayzur]

Great post Rayzur,

 

I might come off sometimes as a real @$$, well most of the times just a smart @$$, and I do defend my opinions to the end usually, but those who know me also know that it's nothing personal, at least I hope they know that.

 

I rib Hame, Mags, Rights, Lostenso (aka Tiff, aka Black Swan) and company all the time and I expect it back just as much, that's what makes it so much fun to debate and discuss things here on DV, but I wish none of them anything less then the best life has to offer, after all we are all still human and I realize we all have feelings, emotions, stories, loved ones, etc. even though our opinions may be very different.  So here is to y'all!!    Well except for Shabs (aka Jason Bourne) j/k I love ribbing you the most!!!

 

I'm hoping we get to finish this ride soon and actually continue some of these conversations face to face at a big post RV party somewhere, and I will be the first to buy y'all a drink no matter your DV reputation.

 

Like Dog says though and I agree totally, I call a spade a spade though as well.  Our country is in the hurt bag and it's because of lousy attitudes in certain parties, the venom spewed is only increased by the lack of willingness to even try and understand what's really going on by the opposite party.  This country has never been more divided then it has been these last few years, it's really very sad, we need to come together as a nation before it's to late and turn this thing around for all OUR future generations.  God Bless America!!!

 

Now back to the debates and the bashings I love so much here on DV just remember it's nothing personal, life is way to short to take anything to seriously!!     

 

Exactly DM, ...

I was posting on another members page, recalling a very intense interchange that I think gets at where I'm tying to go....

 

There's a Commander (Colonel) I'll call Mac who works for me, and we've been in and out of each others lives for years. As a concentric manager (versus top down) I give full permission, in fact I expect... you will tell me what I don't know, debate it, tear it apart, gnash your teeth give it your best shot. I'd rather know my blind side before I walk out the door.

So, given the platform and history of respectful dissent, he and I would fight to the bone... reaching points of yelling was fairly common and we'd take turns self modulating to keep it productive, stepping back to ratchet it down,....(sometimes one of us would look at the other mid scream stop.... and say something like,  when did you last eat, you look hungry, I've got kippered snacks in my office)... ... Our problem solving style was  knock down drag out take no prisoners fighting. (mind you, no where else in our lives do we fight, its just how we processed at work). It literally scared people around us... scared them (we were told) that we were always so intense., die hard to the bone. And so this last time, when I was asked to take special assignment, he was the first and only one I called to sit as second. There is not one other person I respect more in doing what we do, or love more as friend ...

 

So, one day, we're at a meeting with 20 some junior ranking staff, who were sitting around us,  with he and I the only ones at this table, across from each other, considering the information before us, solving this problem... We go back and forth, and  start to disagree... voices started to raise, we slip into intense mode, banter a bit more.  I'm in the moment with Mac, I don't notice the staff are starting to freak  with some afraid we're actually gonna kill each other... he is clenching his teeth trying to modulate... he said something, and I said something back and he could hold it no more, .......half coming across the table at me he yelled  " I'm going to stab you in the heart with a knife".... my immediate ... immediate response was to get his attention,  directing it to the kid /project officer to my left, who gasping in horror, looked like he  was going to have a heart attack....  Mac, feeling somewhat defensive at that moment, pointed at me saying: well she said she was going to throw me out of my own car and run me over with it this morning on our way to work".

 

My point in this walk down memory lane.... you can disagree/debate to the bone in drop dead debate WHEN you know there is respect for you as a person and the debate is about the issue. You can create the most intricate of structures out of intense polar disagreement, WHEN you target the opposing idea and not the character of the person. And you will kill any hope of meaningful productivity, the nano second you go after the person and not the thought.

The point for me is not ever about the fight, the debate, the disagreement.... its not even about how many different ways you want to kill me (both examples above barely scratch the surface of the many creative ways we came up with to physically kill each other)... But when you confuse the focus and target my character, with kill shots, ... you destroy any opportunity toward  saying anything of value. If there is no mutual respect given... if the focus is to kill the person... (character assassination) how could you possibility think that anything you do after that is of value. All you have done is killed someone. You didn't do a frickin thing to the thought, or idea... and certainly contributed nothing to learning.... the greater good, or uplifting the human condition... unless of course the goal... the triumphant is in killing the person....It that, which stands as the substance of the point.

I don't know, maybe it's The Art of War kind of thing.. a perspective and a distinction that is not all that important. Of course, it becomes all that not meaningful in the process. And maybe that is what I want.. the restoration of meaningful, respectful discussion about that which we will certainly disagree, such that we can subject our assumptions to the fire of scrutiny and come out the other side as better people for having done so.

 

Blessings ~~

[hame55]

Great post Rayzur,

I might come off sometimes as a real @$$, well most of the times just a smart @$$, and I do defend my opinions to the end usually, but those who know me also know that it's nothing personal, at least I hope they know that.

I rib Hame, Mags, Rights, Lostenso (aka Tiff, aka Black Swan) and company all the time and I expect it back just as much, that's what makes it so much fun to debate and discuss things here on DV, but I wish none of them anything less then the best life has to offer, after all we are all still human and I realize we all have feelings, emotions, stories, loved ones, etc. even though our opinions may be very different. So here is to y'all!! Well except for Shabs (aka Jason Bourne) j/k I love ribbing you the most!!!

I'm hoping we get to finish this ride soon and actually continue some of these conversations face to face at a big post RV party somewhere, and I will be the first to buy y'all a drink no matter your DV reputation.

Like Dog says though and I agree totally, I call a spade a spade though as well. Our country is in the hurt bag and it's because of lousy attitudes in certain parties, the venom spewed is only increased by the lack of willingness to even try and understand what's really going on by the opposite party. This country has never been more divided then it has been these last few years, it's really very sad, we need to come together as a nation before it's to late and turn this thing around for all OUR future generations. God Bless America!!!

Now back to the debates and the bashings I love so much here on DV just remember it's nothing personal, life is way to short to take anything to seriously!!

Dive, you and me, and some others here have definitely hit each other hard, but I think we've kept it (mostly LOL) on the upper decks...and boy I like a good debate. Especially when I'm right...he he

And you're right, the country is circling the drain, and what I often bring up is this: we are in this lifeboat together. We need to stop fighting, left and right, and look back at the stern and see who's steering. And I don't mean Bush or Obama. I mean who's really has their hands on the tiller. They are the ones who use the media to keep us at each other's throats.

This is a good site, full of honest, intelligent posters who seem to care about each other. I really like it, even tho I am a single liberal dust speck in a conservative whirlwind...LOL. I still stick up for what I believe in, and believe me I have studied global politics for many years.

DV benefits from people like you Rayzur, for putting out your heart as you have today. Thank you.

As for posters who have such hatred for Obama. I think he is a liar and and a hypocrite. But every Pres is these days. Think about where that anger comes from. Think about the difference between faith and religion. Many still have faith but are not Christian. Think about who is behind the Pres and Senate, the money people. They are the trouble. They bribe both parties. Think about how all of us love our home and hate to see it going down.

So let's be creative together and figure this out. Maybe that's what we might use our new-found wealth for.

Edited September 12, 2013 by hame55

[millionaire in training]

Rayzur,  

I understand what you're saying.    

It just seems to me that people are so frustrated and tiered that its easy for their darker side to emerge.

I've only been here sense Jan of 2013 but a lot of you have been here for so many years dancing around in the same circle. And I can see how that would make you crazy after a while.

Personally I dont know how you have all been able to do it this long.  

From where Im standing DV seems to be a great community thanks to all you wonderful people.      

[Shabibilicious]

Rayzur,

 

Ma'am, you are a blessed soul, and have my utmost respect.  I read every word you typed, which is not a common practice of mine.  My attention span generally doesn't allow me to focus long enough to get through the entire presented text.  Also, as I was reading that, I was thinking to myself......I wonder if she knows what it's like to be one of those posters being pushed into the "majority" box on a daily basis?  It has rendered me ineffective and brought out one of my best and worst traits....sarcasm.  I am guilty as charged.  I will not resort to name calling....even though I have found through sarcasm, I can achieve the same result.  I slide in when provoked....put my thing down and slither back into the shadows.  I am essentially, DV's version of a "photo bomb".    

 

GO RV, then BV

[R2D2]

Early this morning I posted a reply in another thread ... and after thinking about it, I really think it should stand on its own. DV is my home and I have as much responsibility as the next guy to keep it the kind of place I can be proud to call home. Lest my previous post be overcome with specifics to the post of the reply, I thought I would put it out here in the general world for your consideration:

 

 

Of late, DV threads seem to be increasingly infected with anger stunningly disproportionate to another's sentiments or thoughts...with all kinds of negatively stinging stuff projected onto that other person. Its rarely clear what triggers the wrath of these respondents, or if they inaccurately or inappropriately filter what someone says because they genuinely misunderstand what is being said, or they simply need a target for their anger. There is a clearly growing tendency to spin differing thoughts or beliefs into absurd, illogical extremes that have nothing what so ever to do with the intention of the poster. When there is no substantive information offered in reply, and only rage filled character assassination, (apart from wondering what drives the needs of the respondent), any hope of respectful exchange through thoughtful discussion is contaminated with meaningless emotional diatribe.

Sometimes I wonder how many other people notice the mounting death toll of creativity slaughtered by the stinging bullets of rage directed at those who believe different. My hide is as tough as the next guys' and probably tougher than the majority of those I meet here and in the world.... Be advised, that's not always such a great thing relative to what it takes to develop that, in keeping the world safe so you can sleep at night. There's no question I could verbally eviscerate to the point of genuine damage in the blink of an eye, leaving a crumbled carcass of dissent behind. But why would I??? Great, I'm tough, and surgically precise, but why should I have to prove that. Why would I want to strike and hammer down someone to the point of silence, because they don't share my view of something? I'm here to connect with others, and if anything have a responsibility for restraint. I come in here to chat with people I've come to know as friends, to learn about the world, figure out wtf is going with the dinar, and push the limits of my understanding. I'm not going to understand the world any better than my own limitations if there is no one left to give a different perspective, or idea or thought or belief. I wear body armor all day. Why should I have to expect it necessary to keep it on.... in order to come in here and connect with friends, and colleagues? Like I said, I'm as tough as the next guy, but if human connection, learning and respectful dissent continues down this path of pizzzy name calling and attacks, I'd just soon go back to work and get paid to watch it.

Some of our greatest moments of accomplishment as a civilization were borne out of disagreement as we cast off old paradigms in favour of new ways to look at the world. The burst of creative energy so uplifting... the excitement of each new world that could only come because of disagreement.

DV used to be such a great place to go to and enjoy the creative energy of thoughtful, respectful disagreement....I disagreed with you, I learned from you... and examining my own beliefs, I even learned a little bit more about myself.... Some of the very people I deeply disagreed with 3 years ago, are today the very same people I respect, go to with questions, and have come to consider friends.... I can name names of the people I wanted to punch out, ....that I would now defend with my life....Some of us even discovered that despite our differences....there were many things we shared...

DV used to be such a great place to go to and enjoy the creative energy of thoughtful, respectful disagreement. When did we start confusing spirited debate of substance, with angry mob attacks for expressing something different. any more it's like being trapped in a theatre and forced to watch What Ever Happened to Baby Jane in this endless loop that plays over and over again, no matter what seat you're in.. And just when you think its safe to share what's on your mind, someone chokes the living sheeeet out of your canary.

I don't understand the mob mentality showing up more frequently... My hats off to the guys who have apparent targets on their backs... predictably knocked down, with the gang jumping in and trading slams/kicks. It is not a respectful exchange of opinions in disagreement,.... in far too many threads, any hope of thoughtful exchange is slaughtered early on in any variety of ways, by any variety of people, who are then joined by other people, who have to get in one more kick/slam weighing in their thought about the other's thought..... and half the frickin time, they are dead wrong about the accuracy of what the person was saying!! Its like watching Brazil... It's like watching a bad version of the Roman Inquisition, or some B movie rendition of the Salem Witch Hunt. Its sad there are emerging threads where members are pleading with each other to be respectful, setting up a whole set of rules.... that would have never been necessary a year ago.

For what its worth, I really don't care to hear anyone's opinion about me or anyone else as a person, for any reason, least of which, because of what I/they believe. I find it annoying that people think they have that right, or I care, or am interested in their characterological autopsy of someone else. When did we start confusing an opinion about someone as a person .....because their beliefs/thoughts/feelings differed ..... with actual information about the actual issue from a different perspective, or different information, or points of discussion. How in the helllll does anyone benefit in learning, by watching one person call another person names...., How do I learn about an issue, or drill down on it... or subject my own beliefs to examination....midst a slander party... By what authority does anyone even assume they have that right. Let me help you with that, they don't. Speaking generally and not to any one or ones specifically or in particular...Not to put to fine a point on it: I don't like the way you think, I don't like your life, I don't like your life choices, I don't like your level of emotional development, I don't like your capacity for insight, I don't like your car, I don't even like where you live..... so how in the world could you possibly conclude I want to hear your opinion about someone else as a person, because their/ life beliefs are different from yours.

Sure I can put the offenders on ignore, and I can make that list as long as I like or need to.... Unfortunately the killing fields they leave in their wake, are starting to consume the threads to the point it becomes difficult, energy draining /consumptive trying to find meaningful discussion that hasn't been whizzed on killing the vibrancy / any hint of an uplifting tone. Maybe I spend too much time in Off Topics.... though it used to be full of fields ripe with opportunity for discovery, creativity, sharing and information exchange about some amazing and interesting stuff....

I take the time to say this... with the hope that together, as DV members, we make a commitment to stop this virus before it infects whatever remains of respectful, thoughtful discussion. If I didnt care, if I didn't want to be part of keeping it the exceptional place it is and so many of us call home... I wouldn't take the time to say any of this....I can't say enough good about how much I've learned from so many of you, how amazing the dedication to bring good research in for consideration, or inspiring the amount of time and energy spent pondering in reply. It's so uplifting to know when I have a real question or issue to solve, there are so many intelligent, heart felt people so willing to help. So much of themselves and time they are willing to freely share. I'm so grateful for the variety of information, stuff I would have never known about, yet is so much a part of our lives. I miss people who used to bring in the most off the wall... yet absolutely fascinating mind blowing information that would blow up the boxes of assumptions.... Tesla's work v Einstein.... that kind of stuff...

This is not just about one person or one thread... its about our community as a whole... Actually, its really about the oppression of creativity, the drudgery of thinking we have to hammer everyone into the box we find comfortable, and its about encouraging the freedom of expression without having to fear that you will be hammered as a person, for having done so. It takes way too much energy, thought and time in the exchange of information and thoughts, to have to walk on egg shells with hopes of avoiding the wrath, ire, or attacks from the angry miserable ninjas.... Smash my ideas into pieces, giving me the opportunity to refine.... but don't think it is anymore okay to smash me as a person because you're too lazy to find countering ideas/reasoning/information or perspectives. Disagree with my ideas, or thoughts, ...but don't assume you have the right to tell me who I am as a person for having them... Your arrogance will far outshine any point you were hoping to make. Far too many people are becoming way too comfortable thinking its okay to make a person wrong, in order to serve furthering some point they are needing to make. Make the point, and leave the person out of it. And if you can't, then step away until you can.

Okay, that's what I've been thinking...

 

Blessings one and all ~~

Me, (+) for Rayzur. My REPLY, Calm. Thanks Rayzur. Always a uplifting logic.

[PrettyKitty]

Thanks Rayzur, cause this PrettyKitty understands....Go RV

[pattyangel]

Rayzur, thank you for bringing this over to the board.  Something that has been in need of saying for a long time.

 

Nobody knows all the answers.  But a  good listener will always learn more than the ones who talks to much.  It really isn't necessary to point out the mistakes of others.  Even if we know better. 

 

I do no harm by keeping silent and listening to opinions which do not agree with mine.  So at times I hold my tongue for the sake of peace.  But never stay silence in contrary to my teachings.  We must never be hurtful to thy neighbors.

 

We must humble ourselves... not to love our own opinions to much, but seek advice when needed. 

[dog53]

Dive, you and me, and some others here have definitely hit each other hard, but I think we've kept it (mostly LOL) on the upper decks...and boy I like a good debate. Especially when I'm right...he he

And you're right, the country is circling the drain, and what I often bring up is this: we are in this lifeboat together. We need to stop fighting, left and right, and look back at the stern and see who's steering. And I don't mean Bush or Obama. I mean who's really has their hands on the tiller. They are the ones who use the media to keep us at each other's throats.

This is a good site, full of honest, intelligent posters who seem to care about each other. I really like it, even tho I am a single liberal dust speck in a conservative whirlwind...LOL. I still stick up for what I believe in, and believe me I have studied global politics for many years.

DV benefits from people like you Rayzur, for putting out your heart as you have today. Thank you.

As for posters who have such hatred for Obama. I think he is a liar and and a hypocrite. But every Pres is these days. Think about where that anger comes from. Think about the difference between faith and religion. Many still have faith but are not Christian. Think about who is behind the Pres and Senate, the money people. They are the trouble. They bribe both parties. Think about how all of us love our home and hate to see it going down.

So let's be creative together and figure this out. Maybe that's what we might use our new-found wealth for.

 

You got new found wealth? 

Hmmm You holding out on us professor 

You one of those tier 1 guys? 

[cooked]

Agree with you. This seems to be a cyclical thing. For a while things are lovey dovey. Then some new people come along and start name calling and bashing people that they don't agree with. Rather than agreeing to disagree, they prefer to bash and call them stupid and demean them as much as possible. Then things calm down, maybe the offenders take a break or they go tear up another site, who knows. Disagreement is what makes this world go around. If it were not for disagreement, we would all be the same, there would be no capitalism, no leaders, no anything. Being different is good. Being humane and treating others as equals and as humans, not treating them as lesser people because you think they are stupid, is the right thing to do. You don't have to be Christian or any other religion to be nice to one another. 

 

Lets get along, forget the name calling. Agree to disagree. Lets just get along.

[tankdude]

I'm going to follow on with Rayzur's comments - with her permission of course. *lol* (That whole military thing)

 

I too have noticed how many of the users have fallen into taking what I call "the easy way."  Name calling, mean spirited jabs and downright hateful comments, rather than a thoughtful and logically supported rebuttal.  Now, I'm not saying that name calling or general "Smart-assery" is always wrong. Sometimes they can be a great tool - if used properly and to help defuse a situation in most cases.

 

What I think is a contributing factor is the actual physical nature of this forum. First, it is basically anonymous. Assumed names, most of the users don't have their own picturs on their profile, you don't have to give where you actually live, etc. This tacitly gives a person permission to allow their "darker side" to come out because the actual physical repercussions are fairly benign in the overall scheme of things.

 

Second, this is the written word, as opposed to verbal. This has positives and negatives. While it takes longer to type a sentence, and it can cause a person to more carefully formulate what they are saying, it can also create a sense of urgency that can feed into a person's anger because it is taking to long to get their emotions vented. Written words don't convey emotion the way that the voice can. It can be hard to tell when a person is trying to be funny as opposed to serious. Passionate as opposed to angry. Flippant as opposed to disrespectful (I know, fine line on that one.).  The point is the very medium we are using has some inherent issues. It takes practice to really write in a manner that can convey the emotions. I'm an English major. I took classes in speech, rhetoric, technical and expository writing. I STILL have issues getting my point across in writing.

 

I love a good debate, philosphical discussion, heated exchange of ideas - what ever you want to call it. I have been in yelling matches with others where finally the only thing we could do was agree to disagree - and go have a beer together.  That was becasue there was an inherent respect between us. There should always be that grounded respect when going into something of that nature.

 

Unfortunatley, anger tends to blind most people to that. There appears to be a lot more angry people on here. Anger is a very powerful emotion, and can be used as a tool. But like all tools, it must be managed to be effective. It can give one passion and energy. It can help you to focus. It can be a motivator. But it has be controlled.  If you don't, and let it overtake you, you will probably make the greates speech you will ever regret. To quote Sun Tzu - "Use anger to throw them into disarray". You lose control of your anger - you lose the battle. Maybe it is that Art of War thing - but I try hard to remember James 1:19 "Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger."

 

 

Maybe we all just need to remember the "ground rules" that our mom's gave us.  "No name calling. Would you want them to do that to you? "  "Play nice." (Bump remembers that one.) "Don't throw your toys at them." "Stop hitting your sister." (Had to throw that one in.)  How many of us out there got the wooden spoon for calling someone names? I know I did. Makes sense to me. 

 

I definitely don't agree with everyone on here. Heaven knows that I don't have all the answers. I like have people call me on things. It makes me look at myself, re-evaluate what I believe. Look at my priorities. Am I being consistent in my beliefs.  Anything that makes me look at myself makes me stronger person in my opinion. I try to stay open, and I have learned a lot from other's that I have had exchanges with here. I will also say that I do try to pick my battles. I know that there are times I have thought about posting, but knew I was just going to run into a brick wall with no helmet. I'll admit - I'm human and I like to win. *lol*  Yet at the same time I have jumped into no win battles because I felt it was "the right thing to do." I'm still learning to do the "hard right." I encourage everyone to do the same.

 

Guess that's about all I've got to say about that.

[LAWRENCEOFDINARIA]

Razur, thank you for your contributions to DV. You are such an intelligent lady and bring good vibes in.

 

Along time before I joined DV, I was reading discussions here as to what it will be worth, when it will happen, political discussions, news items... There have been some terribly heated verbal battles through the years that no one really has an answer to. Personally I don't think even ONE of those was ever worth ruining a friendship over. I think It's great to have points of view and express and support them, but there is a limit and everyone here is different. So even when the kettle is being called black it's still only right to be respectful.

 

Seems like whenever there is some new and encouraging news from Iraq, everyone is best friends. Then when nothing happens significantly members tend to get bored and pick on each other more.

 

I save my seriousness for my own work and family and take a lot of what I read here with just a grain of salt.

 

Spit in the DV Punch Bowl? It could be worse!

 

And... It could be better! ..It's just a Baby Ruth  

You nailed it Tankdude! +1000 

Edited September 12, 2013 by LAWRENCEOFDINARIA