ENORRSTE

[SWFloridaGuy]

6-17-2012 Enorrste: You may recall that Abdul Hussein Anbuge was one of those interviewed in the now infamous LOP article that we took apart a few days ago.

This article falls in line with that article but is now limited to the one person only. He offers 10 reasons why, in his opinion, the "remove the three zeros" project should be indefinitely tabled. Unfortunately none of his reasons deals accurately with the situation.

His first "reason" is a simple matter of opinion: aren't there enough other things to worry about in Iraq that changing the currency? Of course since he doesn't understand the process, even though it has been adequately explained by the CBI, he goes on to provide other "reasons" why this is such a bad idea, all of which are based on a false premise. The simple fact is that the plan has been in place for over 5 years, and is a major element in the overall recovery plan for Iraq. So the answer to this question is an unqualified YES! This is important and does need to be addressed now, in spite of the fact that there are other issues in Iraq that also need to be addressed.

His second reason is also based on a false premise. By failing to understand that the project involves an RV instead of a LOP, he doesn't understand that the RV will CURE the inflationary pressures rather than exacerbate them. He also doesn't believe that the project will "contribute to the value of the dinar." Unfortunately, this statement runs directly in the face of the CBI's statements to the contrary. The CBI has stated clearly that the project will definitely contribute to the value of the dinar. Therefore, we see that Mr. Anbuge is just uninformed.

His third "reason" has been mentioned by others: the cost of the new currency is too high and the money could be better used elsewhere. The CBI has stated that the cost of printing a new currency is about $150 million, or less than the amount of dollars sold at auction on a SINGLE DAY by the CBI. In other words, the cost is not high at all. Furthermore, the new currency will eliminate counterfeiting and fraud, both of which have a signicant ONGOING cost at the present time in Iraq. Therefore, the overall affect of printing the new currency may well lead to a SAVINGS rather than an expenditure!

The fourth reason is almost laughable, namely that the Iraqi people will suffer psychologically when 3 zeros are LOPPED off their currency (as he sees it now). Once again he fails to see that the project involves and RV and not a LOP. Therefore, he doesn't understand that the people will benefit greatly from the RV. In short, there will be NO psychological impact on the people except a POSITIVE one as their wealth increases.

The fifth reason has also been expressed before, namely that the project will lead to corruption and money laundering. I find this one to be the most humorous, because there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this would occur. It is an argument made out of thin air and has no evidence to support it. In fact we read yesterday that 35 banks have now entered fully into the electronic banking that the CBI and IMF have been working on for some time now. The issuance of a new currency will in fact REMOVE any opportunity for money laundering or corruption, rather than create it.

The sixth reason is one that might have merit, were it not for the fact that the CBI has been managing this through seminars and symposiums to clarify the "process" so that the complexity of the project is minimized. Admittedly switching from one currency to another is complex, and even more so when performing an RV at the same time, but it is not as if this has never been done before! The CBI has numerous other country examples to look to for guidance during this process. So why should it be any more difficult in Iraq than it was in other countries? After all, they survived the process, right? In short, this is a spurious argument that has fear as its basis, rather than logic.

The seventh reason is once again based on a false premise (the LOP theory). He claims that people will "clam up" and stop spending due to "confusion". However, just the opposite will occur when the project involves and RV instead of a LOP. With more wealth spending will INCREASE, as will CONFIDENCE. There will be no confusion and certainly won't be any slowdown in the economy.

Reason number 8 is really weak. He claims that there will be no real difference in "accounting". For instance, he says, if something cost 12550 dinars before the project it would cost 12.550 dinars after the project (or in other words, the same amount of "numbers" but just a movement of the decimal point). My response to this argument is simple: SO WHAT? This is no reason not to go ahead with the project, and carries no weight at all when there are many other POSITIVE reasons for the project to proceed, as stated numerous times by economists, Saleh, and others.

Reason number 9 is about the same as number 8. It again assumes a LOP. However, when it is understood that an RV is in the mix, then the reason fails. A man who made 1 million dinars monthly prior to the RV would have a salary of 1000 dinars after the RV. In other words, his salary "value" would not change. The 1000 dinars would be "worth" what the million dinars had been worth prior to the RV. The "number of banknotes" will not change (he is correct on this point) but the MONEY SUPPLY will drop from 30 trillion dinars to 30 billion dinars after the three zero notes are removed. Therefore, his point is pointless, because he is counting bank notes instead of MONEY SUPPLY. Who cares how many bank notes there are? What matters is that the MONEY SUPPLY drops, which it will, causing the dinar to become one of the most powerful currencies on the planet.

The final tenth reason is spurious as well. He claims that there will be problems with the money supply because "good money forces out bad/old money". This is called Cretiam's Law, and the CBI is COUNTING ON THIS as a part of the removal of the large notes process! Rather than creating a problem it is actually solving one. The large notes (old/bad money) will disappear quickly after the new small denom notes are introduced in 2013. In addition the old/bad small notes will also disappear quickly. This is in complete agreement with the plan of the CBI. Therefore, reason 10 has no bearing in terms of being a negative.

Well, there you have it. Once again the "bad guys" are shown to have false premises, faulty understanding of the process, and possibly motivations that have nothing to do with the goals of the CBI (improving the overall economy of Iraq and its position in the world economy).

It makes you ask this question: Exactly what is the motivation for these naysayers?

[artg]

excellent post professer

[yota691]

Thanks for the post SWFG +1

[easyrider]

haha its funny umbertino is like the LOPSTERS little spy he posted the same thing but in the LOP section WOW lost respect for that guy/gal whatever and whoever they are something is fishy. It seems there is two divided groups that believe and dont believe if they don t believe then why are they here? to break even? haha give me a break ill be glad when i dont have to see their names any longer its just really getting old.

BTW thanks for the post SW.

Edited June 17, 2012 by easyrider

[umbertino]

Quote

haha its funny umbertino is like the LOPSTERS little spy

End Quote

Hmm.... Thanks easy... There are Members there who can't go out of LOP section and I happen ( am I allowed to?) to be interested in their opinions also....I mean, if that's not a federal charge yet... So, the spy argument is non-existent at least in my case....

Also easy... You wrote something in that other thread where I re-posted.. Somebody negged you so I felt like writing this ...

Self-quote

Easy.. Just for the record...I wasn't the one negging you... I don't neg anybody as a personal rule.....I wanted to even you out but ran out of pluses... Will do that when I 'm able....

End self-quote

Just so you know.

Edited June 18, 2012 by umbertino

[Rayzur]

One of the many indicators of intelligence is the ability to hold comfortably, two opposing thoughts at the same time in one's conceptualization / brain.....

Holding two opposing thoughts doesn't necessarily mean there is a desire for one concept over another... Doesn't mean there is hope for one agendda over another, or necessarily, that one will most certainly play out over the other.....

Somewhere, there has to be a safe place to intelligently discuss opposing thoughts / views, in a genuine attempt to sort out the ever changing variety of "facts", information. reports and commentaries......somewhere, intelligent people have to have the space to talk with each other, in in trying to figure this out as it unfolds..... I have no question there are those who are really grappling with what seems to be occurring, and if anything, want to present it, such that others can intelligently debate.... or offer opposing factors that would fly in the face of their initial position....

When it comes to this whole process.... it seems the amount of information available from news sources, can be contradictory in the same day, or over the same week from the same source. Who knows what behind that, though I suspect a variety of variables including that Iraqi news reporting seems to be more transparent in their journalistic loyalities to one position/party/agenda/etc than another......

how does one discuss their thoughts, realizations, conceptualizations, and findings in trying to sort things out, without being called an RV'r or LOPster??? How does one present the perhaps fears of what they are seeing, in hopes that others would offer opposing information that allies these concerns.... Calling solmeone an RV'r or LOPster without offering any solid info, research, logical premise, or analysis seems to me to be nothing more than playing the part of a Make Wrong Machine..... in making others wrong so they can be right....

I doubt there is one invested person who really wants a LOP..... There may be a few toads out there who want to be right about others being wrong... (see Make Wrong Machine above).... but that effort seems fairly transparent in how they present their information..... e.g., in reading the posts today there was one member who very logically explained how it is that the recent press seems to be saying LOP, yet at the same time, was very clear in his expression that is not what he wanted and offered a small tidbit of info that may contradict a lop.....

How is it one can openly discuss their most recent findings, information, which in turn does not support that which we all want, and do so in a way that actually solicits useful feedback, information, or replies that offer contradictory info with the same respect with which the initial information was offered....

I'm not responding to any one person or post in particualr, it just seems that of recent, people's fear of anything other than an RV has reduced them to simplistic categorization, absent meaningful reply debating the facts as they are wriiten in a specific post.... (and if its been ocvered before. then just put in the link of past discussions perhaps instead of assuming that the question has an agenda other than the desire for real information.....

Okay, just my thought for the minute..... its all good....

[powerpager]

good post !!!

[tandy]

Rayzur...you sound like a debate instructor...compliment on your post...there are times when a few have personal agendas on controversial posts but I agree with you and think that respectful debate can contribute to a learning experience...except in my case...I just like to stir up things once in a while to see how passionate folks are about their own opinions...amazing how emotional we become when debating the lop no lop, religion and politics....it would be a boring world if we were all identical thinkers...and possibly dangerous...of course possibly safer...there is that opposing opinion again...lol...cheers

[genx4me]

One of the many indicators of intelligence is the ability to hold comfortably, two opposing thoughts at the same time in one's conceptualization / brain.....

Holding two opposing thoughts doesn't necessarily mean there is a desire for one concept over another... Doesn't mean there is hope for one agendda over another, or necessarily, that one will most certainly play out over the other.....

Somewhere, there has to be a safe place to intelligently discuss opposing thoughts / views, in a genuine attempt to sort out the ever changing variety of "facts", information. reports and commentaries......somewhere, intelligent people have to have the space to talk with each other, in in trying to figure this out as it unfolds..... I have no question there are those who are really grappling with what seems to be occurring, and if anything, want to present it, such that others can intelligently debate.... or offer opposing factors that would fly in the face of their initial position....

When it comes to this whole process.... it seems the amount of information available from news sources, can be contradictory in the same day, or over the same week from the same source. Who knows what behind that, though I suspect a variety of variables including that Iraqi news reporting seems to be more transparent in their journalistic loyalities to one position/party/agenda/etc than another......

how does one discuss their thoughts, realizations, conceptualizations, and findings in trying to sort things out, without being called an RV'r or LOPster??? How does one present the perhaps fears of what they are seeing, in hopes that others would offer opposing information that allies these concerns.... Calling solmeone an RV'r or LOPster without offering any solid info, research, logical premise, or analysis seems to me to be nothing more than playing the part of a Make Wrong Machine..... in making others wrong so they can be right....

I doubt there is one invested person who really wants a LOP..... There may be a few toads out there who want to be right about others being wrong... (see Make Wrong Machine above).... but that effort seems fairly transparent in how they present their information..... e.g., in reading the posts today there was one member who very logically explained how it is that the recent press seems to be saying LOP, yet at the same time, was very clear in his expression that is not what he wanted and offered a small tidbit of info that may contradict a lop.....

How is it one can openly discuss their most recent findings, information, which in turn does not support that which we all want, and do so in a way that actually solicits useful feedback, information, or replies that offer contradictory info with the same respect with which the initial information was offered....

I'm not responding to any one person or post in particualr, it just seems that of recent, people's fear of anything other than an RV has reduced them to simplistic categorization, absent meaningful reply debating the facts as they are wriiten in a specific post.... (and if its been ocvered before. then just put in the link of past discussions perhaps instead of assuming that the question has an agenda other than the desire for real information.....

Okay, just my thought for the minute..... its all good....

Excellent post! Very well stated.

[ayrnay22]

One of the many indicators of intelligence is the ability to hold comfortably, two opposing thoughts at the same time in one's conceptualization / brain.....

Holding two opposing thoughts doesn't necessarily mean there is a desire for one concept over another... Doesn't mean there is hope for one agendda over another, or necessarily, that one will most certainly play out over the other.....

Somewhere, there has to be a safe place to intelligently discuss opposing thoughts / views, in a genuine attempt to sort out the ever changing variety of "facts", information. reports and commentaries......somewhere, intelligent people have to have the space to talk with each other, in in trying to figure this out as it unfolds..... I have no question there are those who are really grappling with what seems to be occurring, and if anything, want to present it, such that others can intelligently debate.... or offer opposing factors that would fly in the face of their initial position....

When it comes to this whole process.... it seems the amount of information available from news sources, can be contradictory in the same day, or over the same week from the same source. Who knows what behind that, though I suspect a variety of variables including that Iraqi news reporting seems to be more transparent in their journalistic loyalities to one position/party/agenda/etc than another......

how does one discuss their thoughts, realizations, conceptualizations, and findings in trying to sort things out, without being called an RV'r or LOPster??? How does one present the perhaps fears of what they are seeing, in hopes that others would offer opposing information that allies these concerns.... Calling solmeone an RV'r or LOPster without offering any solid info, research, logical premise, or analysis seems to me to be nothing more than playing the part of a Make Wrong Machine..... in making others wrong so they can be right....

I doubt there is one invested person who really wants a LOP..... There may be a few toads out there who want to be right about others being wrong... (see Make Wrong Machine above).... but that effort seems fairly transparent in how they present their information..... e.g., in reading the posts today there was one member who very logically explained how it is that the recent press seems to be saying LOP, yet at the same time, was very clear in his expression that is not what he wanted and offered a small tidbit of info that may contradict a lop.....

How is it one can openly discuss their most recent findings, information, which in turn does not support that which we all want, and do so in a way that actually solicits useful feedback, information, or replies that offer contradictory info with the same respect with which the initial information was offered....

I'm not responding to any one person or post in particualr, it just seems that of recent, people's fear of anything other than an RV has reduced them to simplistic categorization, absent meaningful reply debating the facts as they are wriiten in a specific post.... (and if its been ocvered before. then just put in the link of past discussions perhaps instead of assuming that the question has an agenda other than the desire for real information.....

Okay, just my thought for the minute..... its all good....

I agree even in off topic forum it seems that members are sometimes here to push there agenda and bash or discredit any opposition a lot of members also just like to argue without taking the time to keep an open mind and take

More of an objective view on what's being posted

[SWFloridaGuy]

Great post Rayzur.

[20MillionDinar]

haha its funny umbertino is like the LOPSTERS little spy he posted the same thing but in the LOP section WOW lost respect for that guy/gal whatever and whoever they are something is fishy. It seems there is two divided groups that believe and dont believe if they don t believe then why are they here? to break even? haha give me a break ill be glad when i dont have to see their names any longer its just really getting old.

BTW thanks for the post SW.

Debate: A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

**Without opposing arguments, this forum wouldn't allow for debate now would it? It would be more like a dictatorship!

Edited June 18, 2012 by 20MillionDinar

[caz1104]

Debate: A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

**Without opposing arguments, this forum wouldn't allow for debate now would it? It would be more like a dictatorship!

There is a debate section here on DV for those who want to debate the unknown such as RV or RD/LOP. My point is why do WE get all worked up over something we really don't know or can control?IMO just kick back and wait for whatever to happen.

Great post Rayzur.

Overall yes a very good post.

[sandstorm]

haha its funny umbertino is like the LOPSTERS little spy he posted the same thing but in the LOP section WOW lost respect for that guy/gal whatever and whoever they are something is fishy. It seems there is two divided groups that believe and dont believe if they don t believe then why are they here? to break even? haha give me a break ill be glad when i dont have to see their names any longer its just really getting old.

BTW thanks for the post SW.

It doesnt matter what we believe. you can lose respect for differing opinions if thats your cup of tea. bottom line, lop talk is full circle coming oit of the iraqi media. you can get upset with dv members all you like, but its the message coming out of iraq, that should have your attention. we all have the same dream, theres just different comprehension and opinions, just like there always has been.

[caz1104]

It doesnt matter what we believe. you can lose respect for differing opinions if thats your cup of tea. bottom line, lop talk is full circle coming oit of the iraqi media. you can get upset with dv members all you like, but its the message coming out of iraq, that should have your attention. we all have the same dream, theres just different comprehension and opinions, just like there always has been.

+1 I agree as the argument can be said for both sides. Trust what is DONE not what is SAID,imo. Time will tell and I hope its soon for everyones sanity.

[KamelKeeper]

Touche' Rayzur, touche'.

[zigmeister]

Very good post Rayzur.

[webup]

Debate: A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

**Without opposing arguments, this forum wouldn't allow for debate now would it? It would be more like a dictatorship!

Agreed 100%

Some folks are so pro RV it makes me wonder if they have a vested interest in maintaining the RV hype

Edited June 18, 2012 by webup

[RRSport]

The fourth reason is almost laughable, namely that the Iraqi people will suffer psychologically when 3 zeros are LOPPED off their currency (as he sees it now). Once again he fails to see that the project involves and RV and not a LOP. Therefore, he doesn't understand that the people will benefit greatly from the RV. In short, there will be NO psychological impact on the people except a POSITIVE one as their wealth increases.

Yeah all those nice Iraqis who spend a 25k IQD note on bread the night before it RVs are going to be real happy when it RVs overnight and they realise they just paid 25,000USD for a loaf of bread.

Pitchforks and firetorches?

[jackster]

Yeah all those nice Iraqis who spend a 25k IQD note on bread the night before it RVs are going to be real happy when it RVs overnight and they realise they just paid 25,000USD for a loaf of bread.

Pitchforks and firetorches?

Yep. They could've held onto that 25K note one more day and bought 1000 loaves of bread.

If the IQD RVs overnight like the gurus claim, these Iraqis are going to be wealthier than 99% of Americans.

[caz1104]

Yep. They could've held onto that 25K note one more day and bought 1000 loaves of bread.

If the IQD RVs overnight like the gurus claim, these Iraqis are going to be wealthier than 99% of Americans.

Prosperity ya gotta love it.

[Realdinar]

Yep. They could've held onto that 25K note one more day and bought 1000 loaves of bread.

If the IQD RVs overnight like the gurus claim, these Iraqis are going to be wealthier than 99% of Americans.

I wonder if there will be share the wealth riots and protests over there like here on wall street.

[jackster]

I wonder if there will be share the wealth riots and protests over there like here on wall street.

What would happen in the streets of Baghdad if the IQD did RV 1:1 overnight? We're not talking about doubling or tripling their wealth. What would the people of Iraq do?

Right now the US dollar equals $1.02 Canadian. What would happen if the US dollar RVed just like we're hoping the IQD will RV? 1 USD would equal $1,000 Canadian.

What would the average American do if their money suddenly had 1 thousand times the buying power in Canada? Can we say road trip to Montreal or Vancouver?

What would happen in Mexico if the peso RVed 1 thousands times stronger against the US dollar? I think the immigrants and illegal drugs would stop crossing the border.

I just had a thought. DeValue the dollar against all other currencies. All nations could pay their debts to the US quicker and the drug cartels would stop selling their drugs in the US because the dollar would have little buying power.

An IQD RV or a USD DV would accomplish the same thing with our IQD investments.

[doctor robbins]

Well, there you have it. Once again the "bad guys" are shown to have false premises, faulty understanding of the process, and possibly motivations that have nothing to do with the goals of the CBI (improving the overall economy of Iraq and its position in the world economy).

For once we agree, although I put Enorrste in that category.

[Realdinar]

What would happen in the streets of Baghdad if the IQD did RV 1:1 overnight? We're not talking about doubling or tripling their wealth. What would the people of Iraq do?

Right now the US dollar equals $1.02 Canadian. What would happen if the US dollar RVed just like we're hoping the IQD will RV? 1 USD would equal $1,000 Canadian.

What would the average American do if their money suddenly had 1 thousand times the buying power in Canada? Can we say road trip to Montreal or Vancouver?

What would happen in Mexico if the peso RVed 1 thousands times stronger against the US dollar? I think the immigrants and illegal drugs would stop crossing the border.

I just had a thought. DeValue the dollar against all other currencies. All nations could pay their debts to the US quicker and the drug cartels would stop selling their drugs in the US because the dollar would have little buying power.

An IQD RV or a USD DV would accomplish the same thing with our IQD investments.

Well I think the market goes up and down according to the value of the currency. So I think items in the marketplace would adjust in iraq. A good example to find out what the people of iraq would do is to look at kuwait. Their money is worth more than the dollar, I believe. Mmmmm....time for some goat stew. Cmon rv I need some more goats!!!