Free Will or Predestination?

[George Hayduke]

This question is one of the great debated mysteries of the Christian faith.  And, like two rails of a railroad track blending together on the horizon I doubt the differences in Free Will or Predestination will be fully understood until Jesus Christ returns.

 

This thread will be an opportunity for believers and nonbelievers alike to perhaps consider an element of the Christian faith previously unknown or misunderstood. 

 

The underlying topic within the 'Free Will or Predestination' question is 'Salvation'.  Many Christians do not consider why or how they are saved, they just know and believe that at one time they were a worthless sinner that needed a Savior and because of a personal commitment or recitation of the Sinners Prayer they are now 'Saved.'

• Why must a person be Saved?
• How is a person Saved?

The simple answers are that human beings are fallen creatures; lost sinners; depraved souls in need of redemption provided by the atoning power of the shed blood of Jesus Christ. 

 

In the most simplest terms, 'Free Will' refers to a Christian's belief that they have been given free will by God to choose whether to accept His gift of salvation or not, while Predestination refers to a Christian's belief that God alone pre-chose who could receive His gift of salvation.  Calvinists holding to Reformed theology believer the latter while most evangelicals believe in Free Will. 

 

Two modern theologians R.C. Sproul 'Chosen to be Free' and Norm Geisler 'Free to Choose' wrote insightful dueling books on this issue back in the nineties for those interested in really biting into the meat of the matter.

 

Since this is an introductory post, I'll stop here and let others jump in should they wish to add further clarification.

 

GH

 

 

[bigwave]

"provided by the atoning power of the shed blood of Jesus Christ." 

Thanks GH

[learning all i can]

Hello Hayduke, thankyou for opening this thread.  I was afraid I would be unable, but now that it's here, I'm anxious to learn and read what others may believe on this subject.

 

I want to start by saying that I am not a debater, I do not have any Bibical education and do not wish to try to sway ones beliefs on this subject.  I find the subject to be very delicate and has caused many to become disturbed as to why and how one of our loved ones could believe as they do.  Also, I have been to many of RC

Sprouls conferences but have never read anything on Norm Geisler.  Guess I will go to Lifeway on Wednesday after Bible study and see if I can pick up a copy.

I do not consider my self as a Cavinist but I know many do that believe in predestination. do consider myself some what "Reformed".   Yes, I'm one of those that believe that Jesus Christ did it all.  He alone saved me.  He didn't or doesn't need me to help Him out.  He did it all on the cross and for me to think that I had to help Him out by making the decision to follow Him just means that His work, His death and His resurrection was just not enough.

 

I look forward to reading and hearing from others.  You'll see me again.  I'll be peeking under the tent!

thankyou

barb

[George Hayduke]

You're welcome to Big Wave and Learning all I can.

 

Barb - this thread isn't intended to be a formal debate but rather illustrations of the concepts of Free Will or Predestination based on biblical understanding.  So please feel free to share why you believe what you do and, equally feel free to challenge the opposing premise.

 

Hopefully, we (those who are going to participate) will at least be able to agree on the definitions of Free Will and Predestination prior to the wrangling.

 

GH

[bamagirl]

Free Will... Many believe in predestination because the outcome has already been foretold where as I believe the outcome has been seen ahead and will come to fruition because of choices made not because it is mandated.. I don't believe it can be changed if we decide a different course because what John and other prophets were shown is the result of our ultimate choices..

I also believe Barb that Christ did it all for us but I believe it's up to us as to whether to accept it or not.

Gonna be a very interesting thread.. can't wait to read the responses!

[sportfisher]

Free will.

[Muleslayer]

The greatest gift anyone can receive.

According to oxford a gift is

1a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.

I am extremely grateful for this gift!

[tkeaton]

Before creation, God chose (election) those who, because of his exhaustive foreknowledge, he knew would choose him, and determined before they even existed that they will be with him forever (predestination). This is mysterious and deep but not incomprehensible.

 

God has exhaustive foreknowledge of the future (Matthew 6:8; Psalm 139:1-4) and also has total sovereign control over all things (Colossians 1:16-17; Daniel 4:35). But the Bible also says that we must choose God or be eternally separated from Him.There are numerous passages in scripture in which man is being urged, begged, commanded and warned to choose to follow God and accept his will (Jer. 24:15, John 1:12, and 2 Cor.5:20). “We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God” (2 Cor. 5:20b).

 

Read John 1:12. To whom does God give the right to become the sons of God? Those who believe in him.

 

The Bible describes a sovereign deity who has exhaustive foreknowledge and comfortably coexists with the freely chosen acts of a mankind that he designed to have independent volition—a mankind that is free to choose him or reject him.

 

Ultimately, God will either have the simple satisfaction of being surrounded by those he elected and who are there because he decreed it would be so, or he’ll have the glory of being surrounded by individuals who chose freely to love him and for whom, he is their passion and obsession.  Which do you think is more glorifying to him?

[Nelg]

Here is my particular view and definition of terms: 

Foreknowledge:  That God has the ability to know everything from the beginning and to the end of all thing.  But foreknowledge does not mean that He removes free will or choice, only that He knows what we will do.

Predestination:  It is the predetermined plan to redeem mankind through the blood of Christ at the cross, and to make a new relationship with man, creating him in His image, when the individual come to Christ in faith and obedience. What it is not:  It is not the dictating every thing that happens.

Free will: Is the choice that God has given to us.  

 

Mankind’s sin was both internal and external.  The internal part of it was the originating and starting of a wrong inclination.  The external part was the exertion of a wrong volition prompted by the wrong inclination.  Adam first inclined to self instead of God.  He became an idolater, and “worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator” (Rm 1:25).  Then, in order to gratify this new inclination, he reached out his hand and ate of the forbidden fruit.  As one can see, and most acknowledge, the internal disposition was the defining element in man’s sin. 

 

God did not put this motive before the two created human beings.  God is not responsible for man’s sin, guilt, or punishment.  Mankind’s fall from grace was a free act of revolt or rebellion against God.  It was man’s choice. Such a choice of right and wrong, of obedience or disobedience, or the selection of opposites, was a necessary condition of the moral development and character of mankind.  Mankind was not robotic or “androidal” so as to live for the glory of God without any choice in the direction of life.  Man’s inclination was toward the Creator, but his conformation of his inclination came as a result of being tempted to do things his way and not God’s.  That choice came as a result of Satan’s temptation of man.

The remedy for mankind’s plight and punishment is revealed in the condemnation. 

 

By his foreknowledge God was fully aware that man could and would fall into sin even before the creation.  Therefore God formulated a plan of redemption before the foundation of the world.  The beginning revelation of the plan is found in Gen 3:15, though mankind would not come to understand that plan until the coming of God into the world through Jesus, the Christ.

 

The rest of the biblical revelation is the predetermined plan of God.  It is that plan formed before the foundation of the world that mankind had nothing to do with achieving or planning.  It was all from the Godhead.  It never entered into the heart of man what God had planned for mankind.  But once a person is called by the gospel through the reading of the Scripture or from the preaching of the word, that person will either reject or accept the gospel by his own free will. 

 

Predestination has to do the plan that God formed from the foundation of the world to redeem mankind.  That was accomplished in the coming of Jesus to die on the cross for mankind sin. This mystery we can understand by revelation (Ep 3:1-11), and it is this mystery that the church must proclaim to the world.  We cannot hold it back and conceal it from men.  It must be proclaimed for mankind to be saved.  It is God’s purpose that we preach and teach this message, the gospel!

 

This predetermined plan to redeem mankind was given before the beginning of time; that is, it was conceived by the divine mind (God) in eternity (1Co 2:6-10).  After Paul says that the wisdom of God, the mystery of God, is the preaching of Christ crucified; he then states the origin of this plan.  It was predestined before the ages; in eternity (1Co 2:7). It is the plan of “all that God has prepared for those who love Him” (1Co 2:9).

 

This mystery, the predetermined plan, is God’s will for mankind (Ep 1:3-14).  All spiritual blessings are to be “in Christ” (1:3).  The choosing of us was “before the foundation of the world” (1:4).  The point I am making is that God has not chosen us individually and forced us to become saved, but that those who believe would be saved “in Christ” and they are, after their decision, the chosen of God.

 

To the Thessalonians Paul writes that salvation is for those who are called through the gospel (1Th 2:13-14).  The “calling” of God is not by means other than what He has ordained.  Certainly those during the OT and NT periods were “called” directly by God, through angelic messengers, heavenly visions,” or by circumstances and events. Even then they had a choice of accepting the call; it was not forced upon them by God.  But the ordained “call” for saints today is the calling of the gospel of Christ.  The “calling” is by or through the gospel, which is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1Co 15:1-4).  This is the message of grace.  Paul, in telling Agrippa about his own calling, says that he was not “disobedient to the heavenly vision” (Acts 26:19), which was the grace proclaimed (Gal 1:15). 

 

Therefore, through this “mystery,” an essential relationship is established with and for the saints (Rm 8:28-30). This mystery was that all men coming to Jesus in faith, and yield to God’s work within them, will be conformed into the image of Jesus.

 

The relationship lost in the fall is reestablished by the death and resurrection of Jesus.  Our belief in Him as Savior, our trust in Him as Lord and God, and our obedient faith in Him make salvation possible.  Additionally, it was God’s plan to reshape individuals into the image of Christ, an image that He could count as His sons and daughters. 

 

The predetermined plan of God that all men become saved in Christ can and is rejected for the individual can be rejected and be condemned by God; or it can be accepted and upon death will be taken to heaven. 

 

 

So yes, there is predestination.

Yes, there is free will to either accept or reject Christ. 

[learning all i can]

Thru out the whole Bible, we are told of God's elect or predestined. So, I suppose I should start with the OT and Israel.

The doctrine of election is rooted in the particularity of the Judeo-Christian tradition, that is, theconviction that out of all the people on earth God has chosen to reveal Himself in a special, unique way to one particular people. This conviction resonates through every layer of the OT from the early awareness of Israel as"the people of Yahweh" through the Psalms (147:19-20a, "He declares His word to jacob, His statutes and juudgements to Isral. Now God has not done this for any other nation". We can identify 5 major motifs in the OT portrayal of God's election of Israel.

(1) Election is the result of the soverign initiative of God. At the very beginning of Israel's role in salvation histry is the call of Abraham to leave hishomeland for a new one that would be shown ubto him Gen.12:1-7. This directive came to Avraham fom God who also promised to bless his descendants and all oeoples on earth through them. While Abraham responed to this call in obedience and faith, his election was not the results of his own efforts, but solely of God's decision.

2. The central word in Israel's vocabulary for describing their special relationship with God was"covenant." This covenant was not a contract betweeen equal partners, but a bond established by God's unmerited favor and love. This is found in Deuteronomy. "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possesion out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the oeoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples" (Deut.7:6-7)

3. Within the covenanted community God selected certain individuals to fulfill specific functions. The following persons are said to be elected in this sense; Abraham (Neh.9:7), Moses (Ps.106:23) Aaron (Num.16:1-17:13) David (Ps.78:70) Solomon (1 Chron. 28:10) and Zerubbabel (Hag.2:23). Kings, priest, and prophets are all choen by God, though in different ways and for various purposes. Jeremiah believed that he had been elected and set apart as a prophet even before he was born (Jer.1:4-5)

4. Israel's election was never intended to be a pretext for pride but rather an opportunity for service. "I am the LORD, I have called you in righteouness,....as a light to the nations" (Isa.42:6). From time to time the children of Israel were temoted to presume upon God'S gracious favor, to assume for example, that because the Lord had placed His temple at Jerusalem, they were exempt from judgment. Again and again the prophets tried to disabuse them of this false notion of security by pointing out the true meaning of the covenant and their mission among the nations .

5. In the later OT writings, and especially during the intertestamental period, there is a tendency to identify the "elect ones" with the true, faithful "remnant" among the people of God. The birth of our Messiah is seen to mark the dawn of the age of salvation for the remnant.

Election/ predestination is God's plan to bring salvation to His people and His world. It refers to the purpose or the plan of God whereby He determines to effect His divine will. The word "election" itself is derived from the Greek word, eklegomai, which means literally,"to choose something for oneself." The Bible also uses other words such as "choose," "predestination," "foreordain," "determine," and "call" to indicate that God has enter into a special relationship with certain individuals and groups through whom He has decided to fullfill His purpose within the history of salvation.

[umbertino]

It's a great question indeed.

 

To me it goes beyond  the mere walls of Christian Faith.

Edited October 8, 2013 by umbertino

[Nelg]

The "election" or selection of Israel was for the purpose of keeping the seed promise made to Abraham continuous until "the seed" arrived.  That "seed" was Jesus, the Christ.  Israel's unfaithfulness produced a "cutting off" of the Jewish people unless they trusted in the Messiah, Jesus.  The promises remain intact, but now those "elect" are those who by faith have been grafted into those promises.  

The "election" and "chosen" are those "in Christ." The way God determines the "chosen" from all nations is through their obedience and trust in Jesus.  It is the only way a person, whether Jew or Gentile, can be included into the promises to the "elect." 

The Jewish people are not saved because they are of Israel.  The predestined plan is for all to come in faith (free will) to Jesus Christ.  That means that all people have access to the promises.  

God by His foreknowledge knew the ways of mankind, He predetermined the plan (Christ), and gave everyone the free will to chose.

What He in His sovereignty does not do is determine each moment of the individuals life.  In His sovereignty He leaves those choices up to us.   God does not predestine the person that I marry, the profession I have, the school I attend, or the car that I buy.  Those choices are mine because He has given them to me (us) to make.  As a person with such freedom I cannot blame God for the circumstances I find myself in when I go against His divine will, His word.  

[Heavyduty053]

Nelg i agree with you, let me offer my opinion:

 

Jesus signed off on the gentiles free will of choice at the cross. Yes God know our every move, every though, every thing we will do in the future on top of what we do now. Does he intervene, yes and no and mostly if we want that, i mean sincerely want that, it can't just be talk or a spur of the moment thing, he knows the difference. Our destiny's is determined somewhat through this free will of choice and that's not to say he don't know at some point we will chance course or will stay the same until death. Free will of choice is one of his gifts to us to deside if we want his saving grace or the alterative.

 

You would be surprised at how many people has given no thought to the after life because death is death, that's it it finished. They can't seem to realize that there is a life after death either in torment or heaven. People speak of Global Warming they haven't seen nothing yet.

 

I will finish with this...the original question was Free will or predestination. Each one of us while in our bodies has a chance to change our utilmate destinations with free will of choice. Jesus will not push himself on no one who doesn't not want him in their lives, but accountability comes with that. At the end when you draw your last breath what ever choice you made at that moment will be your destination. He wants every one created to be with him in glory but many will not because of the deceiver. Your choice of your destination is yours while you breath then it becomes God's. It's simple destiny in glory or destiny in torment. JEsus said i am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the father except by me.

[George Hayduke]

THEN AND NOW

By Jim Anderberg

 

There once was a time I wondered

How in a vice I was found

 

Squeezed up to another octave

Unable to make a sound

 

Traffic snarled around me

Pedestrian lights flashed go

 

My feet were stuck in concrete

My body and mind said no

 

No to any more struggling

No to any more pain

 

The choices were all futile

There’d be no further gain

 

There’d be no more new options

Life’s door had finally shut

 

There’d be no point in moving forward

It was time to quit and rust

 

But as the dust began to settle

Upon my stubborn head

 

I found my heart sighing deeply

When did it all begin?

 

This knitting of a promise

That never quite became

 

A tapestry of my own design

As I played life’s little games

 

It was a thing I tried to hold onto

Yet it unraveled before my eyes

 

Helpless to stop the fraying

I quickly turned to lies

 

Some I embraced with eager arms

And others I gallantly told

 

I kept my friends in disbelief

I never would grow old

 

But wisdom has a way of showing

What wrinkles cannot resist

 

That time will stand for no one

And it was time to get some rest

 

Maybe for a moment

Just a second, one or two

 

It was time to stop my struggling

It was time to step on through

 

Everyone must face it

No one gets a pass

 

That moment was for me alone

My choice would always last

 

A greater love had been revealed

In that desperate time

 

When an endless ocean ripple free

Appeared within my mind

 

I saw the One who’s walking

Upon that perfect sea

 

His eyes blazed like diamonds

And he was coming just for me

 

There was no need to try and fix

Anything I’d broken

 

His Grace had covered all my sins

I accepted…. He said I’m chosen.

 

© Jaa 2006

[colt32]

Only now.... because of what Jesus did. Died on the cross and rose again defeating death do we have the power of choice over sin. The Veil is torn in half. There remains no more need for sacrafice. Jesus is now our mediator to the Father. We have the ability to choose what is right by the Holy Spirit in us.

 

Knowledge of what that future is does not mean we don't have free will. It's tough to come up with an example but maybe this will come close: It's like a football game that you have taped and it has been over for hours and you know the outcome. On one play the quarterback drops back and gets sacked and breaks his leg. You know the outcome of the play before it starts.... it doesn't take away the quarterbacks free will to still chose that play and what the outcome is...........

 

God speed

[tankdude]

Here is my take on this - and maybe this is influenced by my previous job as a computer programmer.

 

I see God as melding our freedom to choose AND predestination. How many of you are familiar with flow charts?  I just have  a gut feeling that God has a HUGE flow char for each of us.  As we reach a decision point, there are many options that branch off. I also believe God knows our heart and our mind - and knows what decision we will make, but loves us enough to offer us the choice.

 

Maybe a bit simplified - but for the most part I consider myself a simple man. God has blessed me with some gifts and skills  - but the one skill I'm working on is trying to listen to Him. I still need that spiritual hammer alongside the head from time to time to remind me.

[George Hayduke]

Free Will... Many believe in predestination because the outcome has already been foretold where as I believe the outcome has been seen ahead and will come to fruition because of choices made not because it is mandated.. I don't believe it can be changed if we decide a different course because what John and other prophets were shown is the result of our ultimate choices..

I also believe Barb that Christ did it all for us but I believe it's up to us as to whether to accept it or not.

Gonna be a very interesting thread.. can't wait to read the responses!

 

 

Before creation, God chose (election) those who, because of his exhaustive foreknowledge, he knew would choose him, and determined before they even existed that they will be with him forever (predestination). This is mysterious and deep but not incomprehensible.

 

God has exhaustive foreknowledge of the future (Matthew 6:8; Psalm 139:1-4) and also has total sovereign control over all things (Colossians 1:16-17; Daniel 4:35). But the Bible also says that we must choose God or be eternally separated from Him.There are numerous passages in scripture in which man is being urged, begged, commanded and warned to choose to follow God and accept his will (Jer. 24:15, John 1:12, and 2 Cor.5:20). “We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God” (2 Cor. 5:20b).

 

Read John 1:12. To whom does God give the right to become the sons of God? Those who believe in him.

 

The Bible describes a sovereign deity who has exhaustive foreknowledge and comfortably coexists with the freely chosen acts of a mankind that he designed to have independent volition—a mankind that is free to choose him or reject him.

 

Ultimately, God will either have the simple satisfaction of being surrounded by those he elected and who are there because he decreed it would be so, or he’ll have the glory of being surrounded by individuals who chose freely to love him and for whom, he is their passion and obsession.  Which do you think is more glorifying to him?

 

 

 

God by His foreknowledge knew the ways of mankind, He predetermined the plan (Christ), and gave everyone the free will to chose.

What He in His sovereignty does not do is determine each moment of the individuals life.  In His sovereignty He leaves those choices up to us.   God does not predestine the person that I marry, the profession I have, the school I attend, or the car that I buy.  Those choices are mine because He has given them to me (us) to make.  As a person with such freedom I cannot blame God for the circumstances I find myself in when I go against His divine will, His word.  

 

All good examples of Free Will.  

 

1TImothy 4:10, "For this we labor and strive, that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."  

 

While Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men (provides salvation for all) his death, resurrection and ascension procurs salvation for those who believe.  

 

It is true that there is nothing within fallen man that merits God's love or Grace and, it is equally true that there is nothing fallen man can do to influence God's nature or assist with the Atonement.  God's just nature demands sin be condemned but because of His infinite love He has provided salvation for fallen man.

 

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

 

Salvation is a gift offered to all mankind that is only realised by those who choose to believe and receive.

[Nelg]

All good examples of Free Will.  

 

1TImothy 4:10, "For this we labor and strive, that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."  

 

While Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men (provides salvation for all) his death, resurrection and ascension procurs salvation for those who believe.  

 

It is true that there is nothing within fallen man that merits God's love or Grace and, it is equally true that there is nothing fallen man can do to influence God's nature or assist with the Atonement.  God's just nature demands sin be condemned but because of His infinite love He has provided salvation for fallen man.

 

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

 

Salvation is a gift offered to all mankind that is only realised by those who choose to believe and receive.

Great point and true.  You said something that triggered a thought concerning the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ. God demands that sin be condemned.  But many do not know how sins were condemned in Jesus.  The cross is the work of man in the whole crucifixion process (Acts 2:23: Mt 16:21).  But divine wrath took place when Jesus went into Hades (Acts 2:31) to be punished for our sin (Acts 3:18; Heb 2:9-10). Thus, not only has sin been removed by the blood, but so has the wrath of God (Rm 5:9) been administered to Jesus so that we will not need to suffer God wrath if we believe/trust in what He did.  

Now how beautiful is that.  For the Christian, there will be no judgment for sin (it has been removed), and no suffering to atone for sins committed (Jesus has done that), so we stand justified before the throne.  No sin! No suffering!  Only the sweet and everlasting communion with God!  WOW!  

[waterman13]

• Romans 8:29 NKJV
  For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
   
• Romans 8:30 NKJV
  Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
   
• Ephesians 1:5 NKJV
  having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
   
• Ephesians 1:11 NKJV
  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Wm13

Great point and true.  You said something that triggered a thought concerning the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ. God demands that sin be condemned.  But many do not know how sins were condemned in Jesus.  The cross is the work of man in the whole crucifixion process (Acts 2:23: Mt 16:21).  But divine wrath took place when Jesus went into Hades (Acts 2:31) to be punished for our sin (Acts 3:18; Heb 2:9-10). Thus, not only has sin been removed by the blood, but so has the wrath of God (Rm 5:9) been administered to Jesus so that we will not need to suffer God wrath if we believe/trust in what He did.  

Now how beautiful is that.  For the Christian, there will be no judgment for sin (it has been removed), and no suffering to atone for sins committed (Jesus has done that), so we stand justified before the throne.  No sin! No suffering!  Only the sweet and everlasting communion with God!  WOW!  

Well said, In Him there IS NO SIN! I am in Christ! He is in me.

1 John 3:

1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Wm13

Edited October 8, 2013 by waterman13

[George Hayduke]

Now how beautiful is that.  For the Christian, there will be no judgment for sin (it has been removed), and no suffering to atone for sins committed (Jesus has done that), so we stand justified before the throne.  No sin! No suffering!  Only the sweet and everlasting communion with God!  WOW!  

 

Preach it brother!  

 

Wonderful, glorious communion with God without inclination to sin but still with free will to choose infinite goodness for ever and ever.

 

On the other hand, the reality of hell where fallen angels and the reprobate will suffer the eternal unmitigated wrath of God is too horrible, too terrible to consider for any length of time other than to be humbled to pray for the living lost amongst us.

[willy1der]

I like to do what Watchman Nee suggested in one of his books (can't remember which book). To find the error in a doctrine take it out 1000 miles like a train track and see how far off it is. Let's look at no free will. If I don't have free will to choose then if I were to commit a horrendous crime would it be my fault? After all, we don't have a free will, can you see the error in this logic? God knows the end from the beginning (Is. 46:10). God predestined that Jesus would die for us, would take away the sins of the world and reconcile all of mankind to himself through His son. Sin isn't inputted to mankind, (2 Corinthian 5:19). Now when we get the revelation of what Jesus did for us and receive what He has done then we are saved and walk in power. Power for what? Kingdom of heaven power in our midst on earth (Ephesian 3:19-20). Thanks for your explanation Nelg, you hammered it!

[waterman13]

Good book to read, Stephen Jones has lots of good books:

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/creations-jubilee/

Wm13

[pattyangel]

You guys are refreshing and uplifting in your beliefs.  Thanks all for sharing.  Oh I agree with all.  We are given the great gift of choice, free will.  And God knows all. 

[learning all i can]

Good evening all, lots of great post by all of you. I've learned from each and everone of them. Thank you.

Before I go very deep in to my belief of "election/predestination" I thought I would bring the most common definition of "free will" as I shared the definitin of election/predestination in my last post.

Free will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality without absolutely no bias. Sounds pretty good, huh? This means there is no coercion, either internal or external to be found in it.

Now, here's the problem for me.

If we make choices strickly from a neutral posture, with no prior inclination then we make choices for no reason.. if there is no reason or our choices are spontaneous, then our choices have no moral sinificance. If a choice just happens eith no rhyme or reason for it-then it cannot be judged good or bad. When God evaluates our choices is is concerned about our motives and what lies eithin our hearts.

The 2nd problem this view or definition of frre will faces is not so much moral as it is rational. If there is no inclination, desire, no prior motivation or reason for a choice, how can a choice even be made. If the will is totally neutral, why would it choose left or right? Or anything at all? I guess what I'm saying is there must be motive or there could be no choice. Therefore if we are all thinking alike, we would have to reject the neutral-will theory not only because it is irrational but because it is radically unbibical.

Hope we can agree on that!

Christian thinkers have given us 2 important defintioñs of frr will.

The 1st definition to consider is offered by Jonathan Edwards in his work, "On the Freedom of Will." Edwards defines the will as "the mind choosing" Before ee can ever make a moral choice ee must 1st have some idea of what we are choosing. Our mind selection is then based upon our mind approves or rejects. Our understanding of values has a crucial role to play in our decision making. My inclination and motives as well as my actual choice are shaped by my mind.

A 2nd definition of free will is the ability to choose what we want. To be able to coose according to our desies. Here we find that desire plays a vital role of providing motivation or a reason for making a choice.

Now, here's the tricky part. Accordingto J. Edwads a human is not only free to choose what he desires but he must choose what he desires to be able to choose at all. The will always chooses according to its strongest inclination at the moment. This must mean that every choice is free and every choice is determined. In other words our choices are determined by our desires. They remain our choices because they are motivated by our own desires. This is what is called self-determination, which is the essence of freedom.

The Bible makes clear that we choose out of our desires. A eicked or evil desire produces wicked or evil choices and wicked action. Godly desires produce godly deed.

Edwards made another distinction that is helpful in understanding the biblical concept of free will. He distiinguished between natural ability and moral ability. Natural ability has to do wth the powers ee receive as a natural human being. As a human I have the ability to think, walk, talk, see hear and above all to make choices. The will is a natural abiloty given to us by God. We all have the faculties necessary to make choices. Yep we all have this ability to choose what we desire. Right?

Then what is our problem? Ehy doesn't everyone come to follow Christ?

Accoding to the Bible the location of our problem is very clear. It is the nature of our desires. This is the focal point of our fallenness. Scripture declares that the heart of fallen man continually harbors desires that are only wicked (Gen.6:5)

Edwards declares that man's problem with sin lies with his moral ability, or lack there of. Before a person can make a choice that is pleasing to God, he must 1st have a desire to please God. Before he can find God, we must have a desire to seek Him. Before we can choose the good we must 1st have a desire for the good. And before we can choose Christ, we must 1st have a desire for Christ.

The sum and substance of this thread on free will and predestination/election rest squarely at this point!

Does fallen man, in and oh himself have a natural desire for our Lord Jesus Christ?

Of course Edwards ansers this question with an emphatic "NO".

He insist that in the fall, that man lost his original desire for God. When he lost that desire, something happened to his freedom. H e lost his moral abikity to choose Christ. In order to choose Christ the sinner must 1st have that desire to choose Christ. Either he has that desire already within him or he must receive that desire from God.

Edwards and allwho embrace the reformed view of free will/predestination agree that if God does not plant that desire in the human heart, that nobody, left to themselves, will ever freely choose Jesus. They will always reject the gospel because as a natural man ee do not desire the gospel. Our desire is for darkness instead of the light.

Please know that I do not base my belief in Jonathan Edwards or any other theologian. And I realize I have brought with me no Scipture to bring home my point or what our Lord tells us in His Devine word. Just felt this may be a good starting point for me.

I feel the subject of free will/predestion is a very weighty subject. It involves so much more than our minds can comprehend. Otherwords we may consider in our discussion are rebirth, born again and regeration to name a few.

All that we read, study and believe must be based on God's word. I will bring scriptue tomorroe as time doesnot permit tonight

[Nelg]

I like to do what Watchman Nee suggested in one of his books (can't remember which book). To find the error in a doctrine take it out 1000 miles like a train track and see how far off it is. Let's look at no free will. If I don't have free will to choose then if I were to commit a horrendous crime would it be my fault? After all, we don't have a free will, can you see the error in this logic? God knows the end from the beginning (Is. 46:10). God predestined that Jesus would die for us, would take away the sins of the world and reconcile all of mankind to himself through His son. Sin isn't inputted to mankind, (2 Corinthian 5:19). Now when we get the revelation of what Jesus did for us and receive what He has done then we are saved and walk in power. Power for what? Kingdom of heaven power in our midst on earth (Ephesian 3:19-20). Thanks for your explanation Nelg, you hammered it!

Good evening willy1der.   Thanks for the complement.  I was just 1dering    if you ever got through the notes on the Spirit?