Science Must Destroy Religion

[NEODinar]

By Sam Harris

Most people believe that the Creator of the universe wrote (or dictated) one of their books. Unfortunately, there are many books that pretend to divine authorship, and each makes incompatible claims about how we all must live. Despite the ecumenical efforts of many well-intentioned people, these irreconcilable religious commitments still inspire an appalling amount of human conflict.

In response to this situation, most sensible people advocate something called "religious tolerance." While religious tolerance is surely better than religious war, tolerance is not without its liabilities. Our fear of provoking religious hatred has rendered us incapable of criticizing ideas that are now patently absurd and increasingly maladaptive. It has also obliged us to lie to ourselves — repeatedly and at the highest levels — about the compatibility between religious faith and scientific rationality.

The conflict between religion and science is inherent and (very nearly) zero-sum. The success of science often comes at the expense of religious dogma; the maintenance of religious dogma always comes at the expense of science. It is time we conceded a basic fact of human discourse: either a person has good reasons for what he believes, or he does not. When a person has good reasons, his beliefs contribute to our growing understanding of the world. We need not distinguish between "hard" and "soft" science here, or between science and other evidence-based disciplines like history. There happen to be very good reasons to believe that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941. Consequently, the idea that the Egyptians actually did it lacks credibility. Every sane human being recognizes that to rely merely upon "faith" to decide specific questions of historical fact would be both idiotic and grotesque — that is, until the conversation turns to the origin of books like the bible and the Koran, to the resurrection of Jesus, to Muhammad's conversation with the angel Gabriel, or to any of the other hallowed travesties that still crowd the altar of human ignorance.

Science, in the broadest sense, includes all reasonable claims to knowledge about ourselves and the world. If there were good reasons to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, or that Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse, these beliefs would necessarily form part of our rational description of the universe. Faith is nothing more than the license that religious people give one another to believe such propositions when reasons fail. The difference between science and religion is the difference between a willingness to dispassionately consider new evidence and new arguments, and a passionate unwillingness to do so. The distinction could not be more obvious, or more consequential, and yet it is everywhere elided, even in the ivory tower.

Religion is fast growing incompatible with the emergence of a global, civil society. Religious faith — faith that there is a God who cares what name he is called, that one of our books is infallible, that Jesus is coming back to earth to judge the living and the dead, that Muslim martyrs go straight to Paradise, etc. — is on the wrong side of an escalating war of ideas. The difference between science and religion is the difference between a genuine openness to fruits of human inquiry in the 21st century, and a premature closure to such inquiry as a matter of principle. I believe that the antagonism between reason and faith will only grow more pervasive and intractable in the coming years. Iron Age beliefs — about God, the soul, sin, free will, etc. — continue to impede medical research and distort public policy. The possibility that we could elect a U.S. President who takes biblical prophesy seriously is real and terrifying; the likelihood that we will one day confront Islamists armed with nuclear or biological weapons is also terrifying, and it is increasing by the day. We are doing very little, at the level of our intellectual discourse, to prevent such possibilities. 

In the spirit of religious tolerance, most scientists are keeping silent when they should be blasting the hideous fantasies of a prior age with all the facts at their disposal.

To win this war of ideas, scientists and other rational people will need to find new ways of talking about ethics and spiritual experience. The distinction between science and religion is not a matter of excluding our ethical intuitions and non-ordinary states of consciousness from our conversation about the world; it is a matter of our being rigorous about what is reasonable to conclude on their basis. We must find ways of meeting our emotional needs that do not require the abject embrace of the preposterous. We must learn to invoke the power of ritual and to mark those transitions in every human life that demand profundity — birth, marriage, death, etc. — without lying to ourselves about the nature of reality.

I am hopeful that the necessary transformation in our thinking will come about as our scientific understanding of ourselves matures. When we find reliable ways to make human beings more loving, less fearful, and genuinely enraptured by the fact of our appearance in the cosmos, we will have no need for divisive religious myths. Only then will the practice of raising our children to believe that they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu be broadly recognized as the ludicrous obscenity that it is. And only then will we stand a chance of healing the deepest and most dangerous fractures in our world.

[eaglefan]

man's wisdom is foolishness in God's eyes

[bamagirl]

man's wisdom is foolishness in God's eyes

[Unitedrich]

man's wisdom is foolishness in God's eyes

Well said, I would rather err on the side of caution, and my beliefs have helped me when I was down, and not only that, but I have found that for me, daily prayer keeps me grounded and in touch with my spiritual awareness, and as a Christian, I realize that I can't do it alone. When the tidal waves of life are thrust at me, prayer not only gets me through the tough times, but the satisfaction of knowing that there is a greater power watching over me and comforting me is all that I need. I hope others can have the satisfaction that I have found. Rich

[ATHIM]

NEODinar, you are an antagonist, just because God has not chosen to reveal Himself to you. If science about creation is correct BY DEFINITION there should be life on not some, BUT EVERY PLANET. It might not be like the life on earth but it should be life none the less as random factors would have propogated life on ALL planets not just the earth. Science regarding a Godless creation is a lie of the devil your father.

[patb1]

I am A Christian.

I am A sinner, I have fallen short of the worthiness of God on many occiasons.

You have your belief

I have mine and "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord".

[sportfisher]

Just adressing you post title;

"Religion" is a very broad term, even your atheism is your religion, and believe it or not in that you serve satan.

If you meant to state that "science must destroy creation", it can't because creation has already taken place.

If you meant to state that "science must destroy the Creator"..........................good luck with that. LOL

I am A Christian.

I am A sinner, I have fallen short of the worthiness of God on many occiasons.

You have your belief

I have mine and "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord".

If you are a saved born again christian, then you were a sinner. You are no longer a sinner, but a saint that chooses to sin.

there is a big difference.

[learning all i can]

I too, am a sinner...I have but 1 hope

Psalm 51:1-2

Have mercy upon me, O God,

According to the multitude of your tender mercies,

Blot out my transgressions.

Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,

and cleanse me from my sin.

[tandy]

NEODINAR...a well worded post however there remains many holes to fill in human evolvement that will remain theory...spirituality is a far cry from organized religion...of course most people will remain faithful to whatever their parents or environment dictated while maturing.. there seems to be a couple of questions in your post that would be beneficial to those of us that believe in a Creator if they could be answered as casually as you seem to think...just exactly what is our purpose here, what happens at the moment of death (as we understand it...which we don't), and what about the scientific minds that preach other dimensions...did the universe just happen,,,where did GOD come from...Is there GOD...and if not how did something come out of nothing...are we alone in the universe...are there really intelligent alien species amonst us...and on and on goes the mythical merry go round...kinda like the dinar situation, many are in it because they believe in something...unfortunately from a pure scientific theory...there remains as many questions as answers as does the religious concepts you posted about...when we get right down to the nuts and bolts, we all our a little ignorant about a lot of things we don't really understand and what do we really understand about that which we can only theorize and use our limited imagination????

you made a very controversial but interesting post...now maybe we can get some intelligent thoughts on this without emotional stress being the driving force...cheers to you...and blessings from an Intelligence somewhere that we have trouble comprehending so we call the Intelligence, Spirit, Creator....GOD...respect intended to the Creator, you and all folks of religious beliefs even though there seems to be no way in Hell everybody can be "right"......what a stoopid post but I did it anyway and I believe what I believe and feel is reality...we are spiritual beings having a human experience and kinda screwing it up!!!

[divemaster5734]

Neo,

the whole problem with that post is the writer makes the fatal and flawed connection of religion and Christian Spirituality.

Jesus never told anyone to be anything but a follower of Him and His teachings.

Religions were not even invented until hundreds of years after HE had ascended.

Roman Catholicism was created around 290 AD, and Islam was around 650 AD.

Except for Judaism the rest started somewhere between 1200 AD to just last week.

Christian means "follower of Christ".

Not Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, or any thing else.

Religions were created by men to control other men.

Christianity is a personal spiritual relationship between humans and God.

As a Christian, I do not promote racism, bigotry, elitism, or pretense in any way.

I fully understand that every human is of equal importance before God.

I find it ironic, the writer offhandedly judges every single Christian on earth while complaining that they are being unfairly judged.

can you see the hypocrisy?

Edited June 17, 2012 by divemaster5734

[patb1]

Just adressing you post title;

"Religion" is a very broad term, even your atheism is your religion, and believe it or not in that you serve satan.

If you meant to state that "science must destroy creation", it can't because creation has already taken place.

If you meant to state that "science must destroy the Creator"..........................good luck with that. LOL

If you are a saved born again christian, then you were a sinner. You are no longer a sinner, but a saint that chooses to sin.

there is a big difference.

Sin is in our nature,

Chirst Died for all our sins.

I am not a saint, in stating that I am a sinner(I was professing that I am not perfect and was not trying to be pious ).I am a sinner , howerver I am also forgiven.

I am not trying to start a dialouge, I am simply stating my beliefs. If you choose to belive different then that is your choice.

[pattyangel]

Proverbs: 18:2

"The fool takes no delight in understanding, but rather in displaying what he thinks."

Proverbs: 18:7

"The fool's mouth is his ruin; his lips are a snare to his life"

Proverbs; 18:17

"The man who pleads his case first seems to be in the right; then his opponents comes and puts him to the rest"

NEODinar you have want the desire to let God into your life.

God will win against all evil. Who's side do you want to be on.

[tandy]

even Satan believes in GOD....... and I heard an old fellow say he knew Satan existed cause he was married to his sister for 40 years...

[Black Swan]

man's wisdom is foolishness in God's eyes

May I provide a counter quote written 1200 years ago from a Indian monk:

Some foolish men declare that Creator made the world.

The doctrine that the world was created is ill-advised, and should be rejected. If god created the world, where was he before creation?

If you say he was transcendent then, and needed no support, where is he now?

No single being had the skill to make the world - for how can an immaterial god create that which is material? How could god have made the world without any raw material?

If you say he made this first, and then the world, you are face with an endless regression.

If you declare that the raw material arose naturally you fall into another fallacy, for the whole universe might thus have been its own creator, and have risen equally naturally. If god created the world by an act of will, without any raw material, then it is just his will made nothing else and who will believe this silly stuff?

If he is ever perfect, and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him?

If, on the other hand, he is not perfect, he could no more create the universe than a potter could. If he is formless, actionless, and all-embracing, how could he have created the world?

Such a soul, devoid of all modality, would have no desire to create anything. If you say that he created to no purpose, because it was his nature to do so then god is pointless. If he created in some kind of sport, it was the sport of a foolish child, leading to trouble. If he created out of love for living things and need of them he made the world; why did he not make creation wholly blissful, free from misfortune?

Thus the doctrine that the world was created by god makes no sense at all.

Neo...I admire the fact that you had the short and curlies to post this, and with only a -4 (as of my posting) you may consider youself lucky at going relatively unscathed. Most likely because you didn't provide any commentary after your post.

I for one do not think mankind is yet ready to unshackle itself from religion, what would take it's place? The fear of the rod (hell) or at least being absent of God's love for enernity does seem to hold many believers in check.

[thatoneguy]

NEODinar, you are an antagonist, just because God has not chosen to reveal Himself to you. If science about creation is correct BY DEFINITION there should be life on not some, BUT EVERY PLANET. It might not be like the life on earth but it should be life none the less as random factors would have propogated life on ALL planets not just the earth. Science regarding a Godless creation is a lie of the devil your father.

Funny how things have to be in "absolutes" with some folks.

The bible says the earth is about 14,000 years old. We know that's false.

The earth WAS the center of all things. We now know that's false.

We thought that our galaxy was the only one. Ahem. Do your homework.

I don't lean on anyone to change their beliefs, but you can't deny PHYSICAL proof that contradicts "the word" just cos it suits you.

Which galaxy is YOUR god from?

Mine is from all of them and he/she/it resides in my heart, gives me strength to make the world a better place, and doesn't damn me to hell just cos I don't believe in a book or his/her word.

[ATHIM]

Funny how things have to be in "absolutes" with some folks.

The bible says the earth is about 14,000 years old. We know that's false.

The earth WAS the center of all things. We now know that's false.

We thought that our galaxy was the only one. Ahem. Do your homework.

I don't lean on anyone to change their beliefs, but you can't deny PHYSICAL proof that contradicts "the word" just cos it suits you.

Which galaxy is YOUR god from?

Mine is from all of them and he/she/it resides in my heart, gives me strength to make the world a better place, and doesn't damn me to hell just cos I don't believe in a book or his/her word.

God is beyond time and He made the world, just as a master craftsman makes his first work. You can’t date what is created by the eternal One. Sorry.

No matter if the earth is the center of the earth or not, the cross of Christ covers the created universe. Your heart is the center of the universe get to know who made it feel the accountability and guilt for your sins.

God has done enough with the earth don’t you think, billions of people are enough to keep to account, we can even keep ourselves in order.

My God is the Father of galaxies and of every soul given breath to see its glory with physical eyes as you were.

He/she/it. You can’t do enough homework to find God thatbigoneguy. You just don’t know Him. The god in your heart, don’t quite know who that is, its not the real One, its the god you fashioned in your own image the image of fallen human nature as man did from the beginning. Having knowledge of God but turning in the wickedness of their heart to the creation rather than the creator.

You will be judged by your conscience and your heart and they will sell you short because you are a sinner.

[Black Swan]

Funny how things have to be in "absolutes" with some folks.

The bible says the earth is about 14,000 years old. We know that's false.

The earth WAS the center of all things. We now know that's false.

We thought that our galaxy was the only one. Ahem. Do your homework.

I don't lean on anyone to change their beliefs, but you can't deny PHYSICAL proof that contradicts "the word" just cos it suits you.

Which galaxy is YOUR god from?

Mine is from all of them and he/she/it resides in my heart, gives me strength to make the world a better place, and doesn't damn me to hell just cos I don't believe in a book or his/her word.

One guy...where are you getting 14K from? My research shows the bible points to 6K? Really...I want to research your reference. :t

I was recently talking to a Ph'd biologist on staff at my agency...and he said that when it comes to evolution, that as a freethinker I should not have to play the believers game that is...fill in all the gaps in how the different creatures evolved. Instead, I should make them play my game, that is, the bible points to the Earth being only 6,000 years old. And it is presumed that all of the current creatures living now were put in the garden of Eden as they are today. So all we as freethinkers have to prove is that there is evidence of prehistoric beings prior to 6,000 years ago. He said he could do that in about the time it takes to boil water for tea.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Black Swan

[thatoneguy]

One guy...where are you getting 14K from? My research shows the bible points to 6K? Really...I want to research your reference. :t

I was recently talking to a Ph'd biologist on staff at my agency...and he said that when it comes to evolution, that as a freethinker I should not have to play the believers game that is...fill in all the gaps in how the different creatures evolved. Instead, I should make them play my game, that is, the bible points to the Earth being only 6,000 years old. And it is presumed that all of the current creatures living now were put in the garden of Eden as they are today. So all we as freethinkers have to prove is that there is evidence of prehistoric beings prior to 6,000 years ago. He said he could do that in about the time it takes to boil water for tea.

I gotcha, Swan. I've heard 10, 12, and now your 6000 years. I figured I wouldn't be a total D**K and give folks the benefit of the doubt. After all, that's what believing in an invisible man is, right?

And ATHIM, I applaud you for sticking up for what you believe in, but think for a moment, all of the fine folks of the world that practice outside of christianity are just shite outta luck when it comes to your heaven, huh?

Peace and love come in many "forms", for lack of a better term. Peace is negotiable in my world, cos there are fanatical idiots everywhere that might need their jaw jacked. But love, my friend, doesn't have to come from a book, or the king of kings (that there isn't a shred of evidence that he walked the earth), or even your wildest imagination.

If it feels good, do it! And extend a little common courtesy and love where its deserved, then on your deathbed, you'll have total consciousness with jesus, or in my case, without.

[NEODinar]

<br />man's wisdom is foolishness in God's eyes<br />

<br /><br /><br />

And man's foolishness is his belief in god.

<br /><font size="4">NEODinar, you are an antagonist, just because God has not chosen to reveal Himself to you. If science about creation is correct BY DEFINITION there should be life on not some, <u><b>BUT EVERY PLANET</b></u>. It might not be like the life on earth but it should be life none the less as random factors would have propogated life on <b>ALL</b><u></u> planets not just the earth. Science regarding a Godless creation is a lie of the devil your father.</font><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Hmm, really? I'm an antagonist because god hasn't chosen to reveal himself to me?? I thought it was our jobs to find god, not the other way around. Get your religious stories straight please.

"If science about creation is correct BY DEFINITION there should be life on not some, BUT EVERY PLANET. It might not be like the life on earth but it should be life none the less as random factors would have propogated life on ALL planets not just the earth."

- How in the world did you come to this conclusion, for that to happen, every planet would have to be suitable for life, and that CLEARLY isn't the case. Lol! "the devil your father", Thats too hilarious. Do you douse your computer with holy water after reading such "blasphemy?

<br />Just adressing you post title;<br /><br />"Religion" is a very broad term, even your atheism is your religion, and believe it or not in that you serve satan.<br /><br />If you meant to state that "science must destroy creation",  it can't because creation has already taken place.<br /><br />If you meant to state that "science must destroy the Creator"..........................good luck with that.  LOL<br /><br /><br />If you are a saved born again christian, then you <b>were</b> a sinner. You are no longer a sinner, but a saint that chooses to sin.<br />there is a big difference.  <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

I have to disagree SF. Atheism isn't a religion. Is not believing in the easter bunny a religion too?

[sportfisher]

Sin is in our nature,

Chirst Died for all our sins.

I am not a saint, in stating that I am a sinner(I was professing that I am not perfect and was not trying to be pious ).I am a sinner , howerver I am also forgiven.

I am not trying to start a dialouge, I am simply stating my beliefs. If you choose to belive different then that is your choice.

hey, sorry for the encouragement

should I assume then that you are an un-saved Christian?

[NEODinar]

<br />NEODINAR...a well worded post however there remains many holes to fill in human evolvement that will remain theory...spirituality is a far cry from organized religion...of course most people will remain faithful to whatever their parents or environment dictated while maturing.. there seems to be a couple of questions in your post that would be beneficial to those of us that believe in a Creator if they could be answered as casually as you seem to think...just exactly what is our purpose here, what happens at the moment of death (as we understand it...which we don't), and what about the scientific minds that preach other dimensions...did the universe just happen,,,where did GOD come from...Is there GOD...and if not how did something come out of nothing...are we alone in the universe...are there really intelligent alien species amonst us...and on and on goes the mythical merry go round...kinda like the dinar situation, many are in it because they believe in something...unfortunately from a pure scientific theory...there remains as many questions as answers as does the religious concepts you posted about...when we get right down to the nuts and bolts, we all our a little ignorant about a lot of things we don't really understand and what do we really understand about that which we can only theorize and use our limited imagination????<br /><br />you made a very controversial but interesting post...now maybe we can get some intelligent thoughts on this without emotional stress being the driving force...cheers to you...and blessings from an Intelligence somewhere that we have trouble comprehending so we call the Intelligence, Spirit, Creator....GOD...respect intended to the Creator, you and all folks of religious beliefs even though there seems to be no way in Hell everybody can be "right"......what a stoopid post but I did it anyway and I believe what I believe and feel is reality...we are spiritual beings having a human experience and kinda screwing it up!!! <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Ecellent post my friend… I'll address each question one by one he best I can.

"just exactly what is our purpose here"?

- There is no definitive answer for this, but I think it's simply to be happy.

"what happens at the moment of death"

- Unknown, never been dead so I'm afraid I have no experience there.

"what about the scientific minds that preach other dimensions"

- What about them?

"did the universe just happen?

- Unknown

"where did GOD come from"?

- If god exists, it's unknown what created god, and what created god's creator and so forth.

"Is there GOD"?

- Although there's no evidence to suggest there is, it's possible. Although imo the idea of a theistic intervening god is obviously a man made idea.

"How did something come out of nothing"?

- It's unknown if something can actual come from nothing, however you must also ask yourself how could god come from nothing and so forth?

"are we alone in the universe"?

- Unknown, although mathematics and probability would certainly suggest we are not alone by any means. Check out the drake equation for further info into this theory.

"are there really intelligent alien species amonst us"

- Unknown with no evidence to suggest so.

"we all our a little ignorant about a lot of things we don't really understand and what do we really understand about that which we can only theorize and use our limited imagination????"

- Completely agree and this is all the more reason it's irrational to place absolutes on such things like claiming for certain that there is a god, simply because we don't understand other things such as the idea of spontaneous creation. These are what are called arguments from ignorance and believers use them all the time. A typical apologist example would be " well I can't explain how something can come from nothing, so therefore there must be a god".

"we all our a little ignorant about a lot of things we don't really understand and what do we really understand about that which we can only theorize and use our limited imagination????

- Believers post religious threads constantly, so I suppose this could be considered controversial considering it's an opposing view point and for some strange reason believers tend to take any different pov as a attack, or put down as evidenced by the negs I will get. Ironically believers aren't the most tolerable bunch. Who'd a thunk it?

Great post my friend and of course you're free to believe as you please. Hopefully one day you will be able to feel the same happiness without having to believe in and fear a supernatural entity. Speaking from experience nothing is more freeing than that. Take care

[jonjon]

God does not call the qualified he qualifies the called. If you haven’t been called don’t worry about you might not ever be.

[NEODinar]

<br />Neo, <br />the whole problem with that post is the writer makes the fatal and flawed connection of religion and Christian Spirituality.<br /><br />Jesus never told anyone to be anything but a follower of Him and His teachings.<br /><br />Religions were not even invented until hundreds of years after HE had ascended.<br /><br />Roman Catholicism was created around 290 AD, and Islam was around 650 AD.<br /><br />Except for Judaism   the rest started somewhere between 1200 AD to just last week.<br /><br />Christian means "follower of Christ".<br /><br />Not Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, or any thing else.<br /><br />Religions were created by men to control other men.<br /><br />Christianity is a personal spiritual relationship between humans and God.<br /><br />As a Christian, I do not promote racism, bigotry, elitism, or pretense in any way.<br /><br />I fully understand that every human is of equal importance before God.<br /><br />I find it ironic, the writer offhandedly judges every single Christian on earth while complaining that they are being unfairly judged.<br /><br />can you see the hypocrisy?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

"Jesus never told anyone to be anything but a follower of Him and His teachings."

- Ok, and in what way does this conflict with the essay?

"Religions were not even invented until hundreds of years after HE had ascended"

If by he you mean jesus, I can't agree with that, there were religions prior to christianity. Where do you think the jesus story came from? It's Just another copy of one of the numerous savior stories that predated the story of the christian jesus.

"Roman Catholicism was created around 290 AD, and Islam was around 650 AD."

- Ok interesting

"Except for Judaism the rest started somewhere between 1200 AD to just last week."

- ok again interesting

"Christian means "follower of Christ"."

- Agreed

"Not Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, or any thing else."

- Well they all subscribe to the same mentality of following christ so they're not exactly exclusive.

"Religions were created by men to control other men."

- I completely agree but I'll just add that religion as a method of control would be useless without the belief in god, so logically speaking, god was also created by man in order to form a religion based on that belief in order to control and manipulate.

"Christianity is a personal spiritual relationship between humans and God."

- Agreed, so in other words an imaginary friend.

"As a Christian, I do not promote racism, bigotry, elitism, or pretense in any way."

- That's good, but the bible promotes it, so are you truly a christian if you aren't following what the word of god according to the bible? If this is what god promotes according to the bible and you don't agree with it then why label yourself a christian, why not just be a good human being that follows the golden rule?

"I fully understand that every human is of equal importance before God."

- Except the one's he burns for mundane reasons though right?

Take care

<br />Proverbs: 18:2<br />"The fool takes no delight in understanding, but rather in displaying what he thinks."<br /><br />Proverbs: 18:7<br />"The fool's mouth is his ruin; his lips are a snare to his life"<br /><br />Proverbs; 18:17<br />"The man who pleads his case first seems to be in the right; then his opponents comes and puts him to the rest"<br /><br />NEODinar you have<b> want the desire </b>to let God into your life.    <br /><br />God will win against all evil. Who's side do you want to be on.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

"NEODinar you have want the desire to let God into your life".

- I'm afraid I simply don't have such a desire though, common sense won't let me believe in such things. Sorry PA

"God will win against all evil. Who's side do you want to be on".

I don't know who's shirts and who's skins lol!

[cris]

One guy...where are you getting 14K from? My research shows the bible points to 6K? Really...I want to research your reference. :t

I was recently talking to a Ph'd biologist on staff at my agency...and he said that when it comes to evolution, that as a freethinker I should not have to play the believers game that is...fill in all the gaps in how the different creatures evolved. Instead, I should make them play my game, that is, the bible points to the Earth being only 6,000 years old. And it is presumed that all of the current creatures living now were put in the garden of Eden as they are today. So all we as freethinkers have to prove is that there is evidence of prehistoric beings prior to 6,000 years ago. He said he could do that in about the time it takes to boil water for tea.

Hehe....could God be so perfect, that part of his perfection would

be that he would eventually decide to create....And in his perfection,

decide to create everything, including the fossils that are dug up,

and in digging them up, cause people to ask questions, having free will,

and not have faith in Him?

Just askin

[thatoneguy]

Hehe....could God be so perfect, that part of his perfection would

be that he would eventually decide to create....And in his perfection,

decide to create everything, including the fossils that are dug up,

and in digging them up, cause people to ask questions, having free will,

and not have faith in Him?

Just askin

Not since our biblical earth is only X 1000's (6-12,000) years old. And said fossils can be millions of years.

Can't have your cake and eat it too. At least not in god's eyes.

Edited June 17, 2012 by thatoneguy