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Wealth Can't Disappear.......


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[Adam Montana] let me make ONE point. Wealth cannot simply "disappear", it can only change hands

[Adam Montana] Iraq was once a VERY wealthy country, with a currency valued at 3X the USD

[Adam Montana] now, you'll hear the l0psters talking about M2, they say you can't simply revalue the currency and gain money, etc etc.... the same goes for DEvaluing the currency. It does not matter how many 0's they have on their bills, it doesn't matter if there's 16 gazillion of these Dinars in circulation, because the notion that their wealth simply "disappeared" 8 years ago is a complete sham

Let's say a country has a stack of currency worth.....just as an example.......One Billion Dollars, and circulates those billion One Dollar notes for the purchase of goods in the local markets. THEN they decide to print ONE TRILLION MORE of those notes, and they distribute them in the same local markets. ON WHAT PLANET does that not DECREASE the value of the original currency? Is he serious? Is anyone truly so delusional as to believe that the printing of additional currency doesn't make wealth "disappear," by reducing the value of those original notes simply by increasing the quantity?

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Sadly true. I have been a little skeptical lately. Adam has a drive by a week ago where he says he has big news that will make lopsters eat crow then never addresses it. Also, he says he had big news but would not say anything until an official announcement, then comes by later and says he did not hear anything but it was regarding the hcl. Well, why say I can't tell you now only to say it later without any announcement? I won't sell because I bought so long ago and do not need the money but I have come to the conclusion that no entity is pushing them to get the RV done when they can't have an effective meeting to determine when they will have a meeting.

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[Adam Montana] let me make ONE point. Wealth cannot simply "disappear", it can only change hands

[Adam Montana] Iraq was once a VERY wealthy country, with a currency valued at 3X the USD

[Adam Montana] now, you'll hear the l0psters talking about M2, they say you can't simply revalue the currency and gain money, etc etc.... the same goes for DEvaluing the currency. It does not matter how many 0's they have on their bills, it doesn't matter if there's 16 gazillion of these Dinars in circulation, because the notion that their wealth simply "disappeared" 8 years ago is a complete sham

Let's say a country has a stack of currency worth.....just as an example.......One Billion Dollars, and circulates those billion One Dollar notes for the purchase of goods in the local markets. THEN they decide to print ONE TRILLION MORE of those notes, and they distribute them in the same local markets. ON WHAT PLANET does that not DECREASE the value of the original currency? Is he serious? Is anyone truly so delusional as to believe that the printing of additional currency doesn't make wealth "disappear," by reducing the value of those original notes simply by increasing the quantity?

So Legolas...have to ask...why do you like pissing in our Cheerios so much? I like living on hopium...its more fun this way!!

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[Adam Montana] let me make ONE point. Wealth cannot simply "disappear", it can only change hands

[Adam Montana] Iraq was once a VERY wealthy country, with a currency valued at 3X the USD

[Adam Montana] now, you'll hear the l0psters talking about M2, they say you can't simply revalue the currency and gain money, etc etc.... the same goes for DEvaluing the currency. It does not matter how many 0's they have on their bills, it doesn't matter if there's 16 gazillion of these Dinars in circulation, because the notion that their wealth simply "disappeared" 8 years ago is a complete sham

Let's say a country has a stack of currency worth.....just as an example.......One Billion Dollars, and circulates those billion One Dollar notes for the purchase of goods in the local markets. THEN they decide to print ONE TRILLION MORE of those notes, and they distribute them in the same local markets. ON WHAT PLANET does that not DECREASE the value of the original currency? Is he serious? Is anyone truly so delusional as to believe that the printing of additional currency doesn't make wealth "disappear," by reducing the value of those original notes simply by increasing the quantity?

Wealth Vs Value. What is Wealth? That is the question you must ask yourself. Money has no wealth and no value. It is given a value to be used as a base for which we can negotiate. This "value" is trying to level equivalents. How much of a Mc Donald's Big Mac is equal to 1 KWhr? Simple question difficult to answer with out some base rates. Now wealth is not currency. Wealth is what currency can BUY. Big difference. America is a VERY wealthy nation. We have acres of forest, tons of valuable minerals and entire states that can feed the world. We can supply a lot of wealth to the world. Money the paper bill you have in your hand has no wealth, it does nothing for society. It does not create Ideas, you could eat it but the five dollars would be more filling if you bought a value meal.

In your example yes the individual value of the notes themselves decreases, but the wealth stayed the same. It is just a bigger number to represent the same wealth. Study economics before making statements to try and prove your points.

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[Adam Montana] let me make ONE point. Wealth cannot simply "disappear", it can only change hands

[Adam Montana] Iraq was once a VERY wealthy country, with a currency valued at 3X the USD

[Adam Montana] now, you'll hear the l0psters talking about M2, they say you can't simply revalue the currency and gain money, etc etc.... the same goes for DEvaluing the currency. It does not matter how many 0's they have on their bills, it doesn't matter if there's 16 gazillion of these Dinars in circulation, because the notion that their wealth simply "disappeared" 8 years ago is a complete sham

Let's say a country has a stack of currency worth.....just as an example.......One Billion Dollars, and circulates those billion One Dollar notes for the purchase of goods in the local markets. THEN they decide to print ONE TRILLION MORE of those notes, and they distribute them in the same local markets. ON WHAT PLANET does that not DECREASE the value of the original currency? Is he serious? Is anyone truly so delusional as to believe that the printing of additional currency doesn't make wealth "disappear," by reducing the value of those original notes simply by increasing the quantity?

He lost me a too with that. normally adam is spot on with his facts...maybe he didnt present his point properly???..

Because iraq can rd/lop, issue a new currency, say each new dinar is worth a dollar and its neutral....no wealth made or diappeared. d

and m2 does matter.. the cbi has to be able to cover the value of all dinars, not just currency in circulation........iraqs m2 is 60 trillion dinars. if every dinar in circulation was gone....the cbi still has to cover the remaining m2 leaving about 30 trillion dinar to cover.

thats why it really doesnt matter if every dinar on the streets is gone...theres only so much the cbi can rv at and the max is way less than a. dollar.

not that it matters the cbi can want to do anything.......but they dont have a unified goi or parliament to pave the way for any expressed results. politically their in a mess......there more interested in religious politics than doing anything for iraq.......its a power struggle and a democracy style government probably wont work

Edited by truthful1
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I think what Adam is saying is the wealth is still within Iraq, its just not recognized - or tied into the value of the IQD at this time. Within the US, we had a certain wealth that was originally represented by a certain amount of USD. If trillions more USD are printed, the overall wealth hasn't changed, its just that the value of the notes is reduced, because so many more bills represent that same original wealth. Is that what you are saying, Adam? :huh:

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So Legolas...have to ask...why do you like pissing in our Cheerios so much? I like living on hopium...its more fun this way!!

I agree Legola, please don't get banned! Anyway, if they lopped, wouldn't that bring some value back to the original notes? There is value there, it's just spread really thin right now.

You are very smart Legola, so use your brain, don't get all emotional. THINK!!!!!

Edited by WorkerBee
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I think what Adam is saying is the wealth is still within Iraq, its just not recognized - or tied into the value of the IQD at this time. Within the US, we had a certain wealth that was originally represented by a certain amount of USD. If trillions more USD are printed, the overall wealth hasn't changed, its just that the value of the notes is reduced, because so many more bills represent that same original wealth. Is that what you are saying, Adam? :huh:

You are right and that is why they can't RV the currency beyond what they are worth. They would have to significantly reduce the amount of currency to get the value that has been quoted as an RV. My hope is the cbi is lying about the amount of iqd, but that doesn't jive with the whole transparency thing the rest of the world wants from Iraq.

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[Adam Montana] let me make ONE point. Wealth cannot simply "disappear", it can only change hands

[Adam Montana] Iraq was once a VERY wealthy country, with a currency valued at 3X the USD

[Adam Montana] now, you'll hear the l0psters talking about M2, they say you can't simply revalue the currency and gain money, etc etc.... the same goes for DEvaluing the currency. It does not matter how many 0's they have on their bills, it doesn't matter if there's 16 gazillion of these Dinars in circulation, because the notion that their wealth simply "disappeared" 8 years ago is a complete sham

Let's say a country has a stack of currency worth.....just as an example.......One Billion Dollars, and circulates those billion One Dollar notes for the purchase of goods in the local markets. THEN they decide to print ONE TRILLION MORE of those notes, and they distribute them in the same local markets. ON WHAT PLANET does that not DECREASE the value of the original currency? Is he serious? Is anyone truly so delusional as to believe that the printing of additional currency doesn't make wealth "disappear," by reducing the value of those original notes simply by increasing the quantity?

If you think about it, the wealth is NOT disappearing. It is simply transferring hands to the newly printed notes. This is known as inflation. A government prints currency and puts it into circulation, therefore diluting the value of the already existing notes that are in circulation. However, this does not create or take away the already existing wealth. Again, it is a simple transfer of wealth. I thought you were smarter then this Legolas!

Edited by 20MillionDinar
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[Adam Montana] let me make ONE point. Wealth cannot simply "disappear", it can only change hands

[Adam Montana] Iraq was once a VERY wealthy country, with a currency valued at 3X the USD

[Adam Montana] now, you'll hear the l0psters talking about M2, they say you can't simply revalue the currency and gain money, etc etc.... the same goes for DEvaluing the currency. It does not matter how many 0's they have on their bills, it doesn't matter if there's 16 gazillion of these Dinars in circulation, because the notion that their wealth simply "disappeared" 8 years ago is a complete sham

Let's say a country has a stack of currency worth.....just as an example.......One Billion Dollars, and circulates those billion One Dollar notes for the purchase of goods in the local markets. THEN they decide to print ONE TRILLION MORE of those notes, and they distribute them in the same local markets. ON WHAT PLANET does that not DECREASE the value of the original currency? Is he serious? Is anyone truly so delusional as to believe that the printing of additional currency doesn't make wealth "disappear," by reducing the value of those original notes simply by increasing the quantity?

To be clear, in Legolas' example an individual that had a stack of $100 before the big printing indeed has his wealth eroded down to $0.10 or so, but the value of the entire money supply remains the same (which is why the individual pile of 100 $1s goes down to 0.10 ). So the total value of the money supply remains the same, but any specific pile of money prior to the big printing, drops drastically.

Adam seems to have this idea that the Dinar was devalued in 2003/2004 from $3 to $0.00086 (his blog at least used to say this as well) but this is of course simply not factually correct. It devalued over a decade or so as Saddam printed 10s of trillions of dinars and was down to about 3000 dinars per dollar (much worse than it is now) by 1995 (history page at CBI.iq). The value of the money supply stayed roughly the same (it went down as Saddam drove GDP into the ground of course) but was just spread out over thousands of times more currency units (dinars). Its very hard for me to believe that Adam does not understand this basic point that as the number of units goes up and the total value stays the same, then the value of each unit must go down. Perhaps there is some basic miscommunication that I am not seeing.

And since I have been banned before for pointing this out, among other things, (jg167 -> xyzzy -> engineer1138 -> dvforumuser), perhaps I'm not long for this forum, so we'll see.

If you think about it, the wealth is NOT disappearing. It is simply transferring hands to the newly printed notes. This is known as inflation. A government prints currency and puts it into circulation, therefore diluting the value of the already existing notes that are in circulation. However, this does not create or take away the already existing wealth. Again, it is a simple transfer of wealth. I thought you were smarter then this Legolas!

I think he meant that wealth disappears form individual accounts or piles of cash etc from before the massive printing, not from the money supply as whole. If you hold onto $1 through 1000x inflation, your dollar is now worth only $0.001 . If you buy a can of soup for $1 before 1000x inflation and hold onto it, then after 1000x inflation you can sell it for $1000 dollars and your "wealth" is maintained. Which is of course why in hyperinflation environments no one holds cash. When you get paid you run to the sotre and buy the mod tradable things you can get your hands on.

Edited by dvforumuser
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Iraq is only as wealthy as what they produce. 130 billion a year is weak. Iraq isnt wealthy. They dont even have working sewers or electricity. All this Iraq is one of the wealthiest countries in the world talk is nothing but hype.

Legolas makes a great point. Countries dont regain what was lost during hyperinflation by a massive RV.

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If you think about it, the wealth is NOT disappearing. It is simply transferring hands to the newly printed notes. This is known as inflation. A government prints currency and puts it into circulation, therefore diluting the value of the already existing notes that are in circulation. However, this does not create or take away the already existing wealth. Again, it is a simple transfer of wealth. I thought you were smarter then this Legolas!

Sorry, but if you INCREASE the quantity of ANYTHING in circulation, whether it be Dollars, Dinars, or Widgets, you reduce the value of the individual unit.... particularly when you are speaking in quantities of TRILLIONS of units. Way back when, when the Dinar held a higher value, the quantity in circulation was BILLIONS, not TRILLIONS. In this case, the wealth we are speaking about is the value of the IQD......it's the unit of wealth we are concerned with. Simple economics is in play here, and even the most naive person would have to understand the concept with even a limited amount of thought.

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Sorry, but if you INCREASE the quantity of ANYTHING in circulation, whether it be Dollars, Dinars, or Widgets, you reduce the value of the individual unit.... particularly when you are speaking in quantities of TRILLIONS of units. Way back when, when the Dinar held a higher value, the quantity in circulation was BILLIONS, not TRILLIONS. In this case, the wealth we are speaking about is the value of the IQD......it's the unit of wealth we are concerned with. Simple economics is in play here, and even the most naive person would have to understand the concept with even a limited amount of thought.

Right, if you are only talking about individual currency units. However, if you are talking about overall wealth, well then, my point still stands. It is simply a transfer of wealth from the already existing notes to the newly printed notes. Same total wealth, however, each individual currency is worth less.

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Oh, Legolas. How silly of you....

You tell anyone that will listen that you've been "banned" from DV, even though you know you were not banned - we both know you responded to me about this exact issue, but it's obvious you care more about ATTENTION than FACTS.

And even though you're supposedly "banned" from DV, you somehow hacked into the site (no, I'm kidding... you're a lopster, not a hacker. Right? ....)

I'm going to give you one opportunity to respond, then I'm locking the thread so no more responses will come through.

This is fair because everyone gets to weigh their own decisions based on the merits of what they read.... and I'm giving you a platform to speak on.

Cheers bud. Make it good. And then once you've made your point... please go away. Start your own site, or go protest, or just do ANYTHING other than bug us here at DV. Thanks. :)

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I think he meant that wealth disappears form individual accounts or piles of cash etc from before the massive printing, not from the money supply as whole. If you hold onto $1 through 1000x inflation, your dollar is now worth only $0.001 . If you buy a can of soup for $1 before 1000x inflation and hold onto it, then after 1000x inflation you can sell it for $1000 dollars and your "wealth" is maintained. Which is of course why in hyperinflation environments no one holds cash. When you get paid you run to the sotre and buy the mod tradable things you can get your hands on.

I just read through his post again, I think you're right. Legolas was referring to the value of individual currency units, not wealth like his thread title stated.

Value of currency and wealth are completely different.

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[Adam Montana] let me make ONE point. Wealth cannot simply "disappear", it can only change hands

[Adam Montana] Iraq was once a VERY wealthy country, with a currency valued at 3X the USD

[Adam Montana] now, you'll hear the l0psters talking about M2, they say you can't simply revalue the currency and gain money, etc etc.... the same goes for DEvaluing the currency. It does not matter how many 0's they have on their bills, it doesn't matter if there's 16 gazillion of these Dinars in circulation, because the notion that their wealth simply "disappeared" 8 years ago is a complete sham

Let's say a country has a stack of currency worth.....just as an example.......One Billion Dollars, and circulates those billion One Dollar notes for the purchase of goods in the local markets. THEN they decide to print ONE TRILLION MORE of those notes, and they distribute them in the same local markets. ON WHAT PLANET does that not DECREASE the value of the original currency? Is he serious? Is anyone truly so delusional as to believe that the printing of additional currency doesn't make wealth "disappear," by reducing the value of those original notes simply by increasing the quantity?

The Biggest Part Of Ur Hypothetical Which Is Missing Is The Fact That Iraq Took A 'Haircut' On The Value Of Their Currancy When They Issued The New Notes ! wink.gif

cool.gifcool.gifcool.gif

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Adam, I think you are confusing Legalos' and my posts. And why lock the thread? Its already in the LOP section.

Legolas constantly claims on other sites that he was banned from DV, and that's not true. regardless, I have allowed him to continue to post on this site in respect for fairness.... however, I don't think he is being fair anymore. See the next post, and my response:

I just read through his post again, I think you're right. Legolas was referring to the value of individual currency units, not wealth like his thread title stated.

Value of currency and wealth are completely different.

That's exactly my point: "Not like his thread title stated".

I think Legolas is here for attention, and unfortunately he has a bone to pick with me... if Legolas needs attention, I think he should get it elsewhere.

Adam loved your response. Can't wait to have a beer with ya someday :D

Same here bud! And again, I hope it's soon. I'm getting thirsty! :D

no, it only changed hands :)

EXACTLY. :tiphat:

On that note, I'm closing this thread. I promise to post Legolas's response in it's entirety, but he will need to email it to me.

Legolas, you know my email.

Thread closed.

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