Legolas

Sorry, but if you INCREASE the quantity of ANYTHING in circulation, whether it be Dollars, Dinars, or Widgets, you reduce the value of the individual unit.... particularly when you are speaking in quantities of TRILLIONS of units. Way back when, when the Dinar held a higher value, the quantity in circulation was BILLIONS, not TRILLIONS. In this case, the wealth we are speaking about is the value of the IQD......it's the unit of wealth we are concerned with. Simple economics is in play here, and even the most naive person would have to understand the concept with even a limited amount of thought.

[Adam Montana] let me make ONE point. Wealth cannot simply "disappear", it can only change hands [Adam Montana] Iraq was once a VERY wealthy country, with a currency valued at 3X the USD [Adam Montana] now, you'll hear the l0psters talking about M2, they say you can't simply revalue the currency and gain money, etc etc.... the same goes for DEvaluing the currency. It does not matter how many 0's they have on their bills, it doesn't matter if there's 16 gazillion of these Dinars in circulation, because the notion that their wealth simply "disappeared" 8 years ago is a complete sham Let's say a country has a stack of currency worth.....just as an example.......One Billion Dollars, and circulates those billion One Dollar notes for the purchase of goods in the local markets. THEN they decide to print ONE TRILLION MORE of those notes, and they distribute them in the same local markets. ON WHAT PLANET does that not DECREASE the value of the original currency? Is he serious? Is anyone truly so delusional as to believe that the printing of additional currency doesn't make wealth "disappear," by reducing the value of those original notes simply by increasing the quantity?

Personally, I think dinarck is absolutely correct. Iraq has continued to print several trillion dinars each year as reserves have increased. I can see no reason for that to change after a redenomination. They have functioned without complaint of a currency shortage since the issuance of the new IQD and their law requires that all currency issued be backed by their reserves, which it has been. As their economy grows, reserves would logically increase, allowing for the printing of additional currency. Pretty simple. The quoted article is more than two years old, and hundreds of subsequent articles make very clear what their intentions are. Debating the meaning of THIS particular one seems an effort in futility, the only purpose of which appears to be to muddy the waters. Plans and interpretations change over a period of two years, and it's more sensible to discuss what's being said NOW. Things are confusing enough without digging up a single article from 25 months ago and declaring it to demonstrate their intent to RV.

Hey Keep. Welcome to the Lopster Penitentiary. I tried to help you out in your battle up in the opinions section by using up my allocation of +'s, but they won't let you get a sentence out up there without giving you a negative. I ran out before I could do you much good. I think I might have been outnumbered about 3,000:1 by the delusional zombies who blast you with negs without providing justification for their positions. I think a + paintball gun with an extended mag might help. Thanks JMW. The one you posted here today is one of the best articulated articles I've seen. It was brief and to the point, but definitely left no room for doubt. Anyone who can't understand the intent depicted in that one needs to get the prescription checked on their rose colored glasses. Of course we all know that those hundreds of articles are written with the sole intention of deterring speculators, and to make the dealers feel guilty as they sell their billions of Dinars at a 40% markup.

Yep. As stated in another thread, the articles are gradually becoming more clear in their meaning - not that there was really ever any doubt. The "RV tomorrow" crowd simply used the confusion created by translation issues to attempt to spin the articles in a positive slant. The truth is that they've always said the same thing. Now that the translations are more legible, the NEW line from the believers is that it's all lies - a plan created to chase away the speculators. That line is incredibly laughable, as Iraq continues to sell Dinars by the billions every week, and the dealers, pumpers, and site owners continue to grow more wealthy. You would THINK that these believers would be smart enough to realize that if Iraq was in fact attempting to deter speculators with these years of RD articles, that they would have FIRST stopped the never-ending supply of Dinars from reaching those speculators, or at the very least, attempted to. But in fact, the reverse is true. The supply and number of dealers has increased, rather than decreased. Unfortunately, it's much easier and more comforting to believe that they're lying, and the hilarious "smoke and mirrors" line aids in maintaining the delusion.

Yet another civil and informative thread with great participation. If only the people who really need to be reading it were actually engaged, instead of spending their time in the Rumor Fantasyland. Dinarck has an amazing and seemingly unending supply of patience and willingness to explain the same points over and over again, always providing proof for his positions. Those reading this should ask themselves how often you've seen a guru or pumper do the same things. The truly sad thing is that they rarely HAVE to because so many are willing to accept their BS, and so few are anxious to challenge it. It's gratifying to see new people joining the fray and engaging in intelligent discussion. It's unfortunate that it's confined to a section that most people either refuse or are hesitant to visit, but such is life. The old saying that "you can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink" is particularly applicable here. Keep up the great work gang. It appears that at least SOME people are beginning to understand both the simplicities, as well as the complexities of this adventure. Keeping it simple and easy to understand will benefit the largest number of people. Hopefully, readers will take with them at least SOME of what's contained here in the lop prison to other sections and even to other sites. Without a doubt, it's difficult to break through a barrier which has been reinforced by non-stop BS over a period of several years, but even the most ardent believer should eventually be able to be convinced by irrefutable evidence. All we can do is try.

Hey webup. I think I can speak for all of the inmates here at Lopster Penitentiary when I say thanks, not only for visiting, but for attempting to bring reality to the Rumors Forum, difficult as that may be. It really is good to know that gradually at least, more people are beginning to understand basic economic principles and grasp what we're trying so hard to explain. None of us are economists, but this really IS simple Economics 101. I guess I have a difficult time understanding why more people don't get it when it's been repeatedly explained in such simple terms, but you presented the situation well. I've said it before, but it's nice to know that others see it as well. Most people only hear what they want to hear, and very easily block out what they don't want to comprehend.

You seem to be misunderstanding the entire concept of a revaluation. Iraq only needs to support the Dinars which have already been issued by backing them with their reserves. What you're not understanding is that "those" Dinars are currently valued at roughly 1/10 of a cent each. What the 100,000% RV does is "change" that value from a tenth of a penny each to $1.00 each - (or whatever the amount of the RV is) thus "increasing" the value by 1,000 times. That NEW value would suddenly increase the values of those Dinars in existence from the current $60 BILLION Dollars to $60 TRILLION Dollars, which according to their law, and simple common sense, has to be backed by their reserves. Once again, $60 TRILLION DOLLARS is many times the total value of ALL of the money which exists in the entire world. How does that happen? Answer: It can't - at least under any existing or known economic principles. Can the world monetary supply be increased by roughly 6 times overnight, and by a third world, war torn country with a GDP that stands at #62? If it can, nobody has demonstrated how.

Hey WorkerBee. You are correct. The redenomination is the plan of Shabibi and the CBI and has been submitted to the GOI. Until recently, it appeared that Maliki and perhaps the GOI might be opposed to it, but more recent articles seem to imply that the plan has been approved, and is now awaiting design and printing of new currency, distribution, etc. But until something finally happens, it's impossible to know for sure. All we know is what they've been "saying" and teaching for a long period of time, and that should be a strong indicator of intent. Is there logical reason to doubt it? Who knows. So instead of keeping quiet and saying "nothing" as would seem the more logical course of action, they lie their asses off for at least two years repeatedly detailing a classic redenomination, and then suddenly spring the RV, magically creating TRILLIONS of Dollars to add to the world monetary supply, and create major chaos? In what universe does that make any sense at all?

I don't follow you Sonny. What do you mean "how are people going to go to cbi and buy dinar?" We all know that we can still go to any number of dealers and buy as many BILLIONS of Dinars as we want. If the CBI is announcing a revaluation, common sense says that everyone in the world would be buying up those Dinars in huge numbers. Are you saying that can't happen? Why can't it? And what do you mean by "deleting the zeros are the small notes?" Deleting the zeros always refers to moving the decimal point to the left - in this case 3 places, so that a 25,000 note becomes 25, a 10,000 becomes 10, a 5,000 becomes 5, etc. Obviously new notes are needed after a redenomination OR a revaluation, and all evidence indicates that they have not yet been designed or printed. So what are you saying there? That statement was very cryptic. Splain it to me so that I can respond.

Saying that they could be lying is a very convenient way to deflect the overwhelming evidence, but that would mean that the two different independent auditing agencies, as well as the IMF and others would be lying as well, or at the very least, be unbelievably incompetent. For the M1 and M2 numbers to be a lie, their budget would also have to be a lie, as well as "income" figures, which are very easily confirmed by their daily oil production numbers, since that is essentially their only major source of income, and barely covers their operating expenses. Unlike many countries, Iraq's currency has to be backed 100% by reserves, and the numbers they have presented clearly document it. More importantly, why would they continue to lie to their own people, day after day for several years now? If they intend to RV, the only logical course of action would be to maintain absolute secrecy, saying nothing until the moment of the event. To do otherwise would be economic suicide. Given that the Dinar RV is probably the worst kept secret in history, isn't it more likely that they're telling the truth, and merely fumbling, as always, over how to get the process approved and initiated?

They sure do, and unlike the RD posts, the "GO RV" posts virtually never provide anything but complaints and criticism of the RD position.....NEVER evidence to support their argument.

We're not asking that you eat crow. The food is bad enough here in lop prison that we'd be happy if you would just slide an occasional pizza under the bars for our enjoyment. I guess we find that the visitors to Lopster Penitentiary are so few that we feel the need to present a more convincing argument than that presented by the gurus. To have any hope of success, our appellate briefs have to be of sufficient length to sway the thousands of judges who hold the keys to our freedom. Unlike the "RV tomorrow" gurus, we have to say a little more than "it will not lop" in order to have any chance to overcome the effective yells of the many cheerleaders who are so readily believed without providing any evidence to support their enthusiasm. But thanks once again, for at least calling our input "intelligent."

No, mrmcwhipit........"Negative" is when a person says that it's impossible to make a profit of 15% on a financial investment in today's market. "Realistic" is when they say you can't make a 100,000% profit, and that $60 BILLION DOLLARS can't magically turn into $60 TRILLION DOLLARS overnight with a poke from Harry Potter's wand. There's a big difference. And for a million dollars, I'd be happy to eat all the crow you can serve. What are you "RV tomorrow" people going to eat when yet another 6 months, and hundreds of additional promises of "tomorrow" and "soon" go by with no increase in our bank accounts, and $millions MORE go into the hands of the pumpers and gurus?

You're right, RRSport. And the sad thing is, that much of the hype is due to the unjustified enthusiasm of many in the "RV tomorrow" crowd, acting like Junior High School cheerleaders, who, having absolutely no knowledge of the game, know that all they have to do is wave their pom poms and scream their support for the team in order to keep the crowd happy. That unfounded excitement leads others, who might ordinarily be more questioning, to believe that since SO MANY OTHERS believe, they must be right. Facts and figures no longer matter. If tens of thousands are screaming "Go RV" then it has to be the few so-called "negative" people who must be crazy. This makes the job of the pumpers and gurus MUCH easier. All they have to do is keep the non-thinking "cheerleaders" happy and the rest will follow happily along. They come back over and over again with the same unsupported BS, usually waiting until the excitement begins to subside, and a few of the more rational people start asking questions. At that point, alll it takes is a few sentences of "I heard something really exciting, but I can't tell you what it is," and logic goes out the window again. People will wait forever for the promise of instantaneous wealth, however illogical it might be.

Exactly.

It's easy to see where the confusion comes in, and I suspect that as always, translation issues are responsible. The most important sentence is: "Detected by a source in the Iraqi Central Bank are four companies currently competing to win a print project which will generate new Iraqi dinar after deleting three zeros graceful, with the Central Bank will raise the value of the dinar against the dollar gradually towards the day to begin replacement where the value will be in the absence of a wiggle one equivalent of IQD one US dollar." It doesn't say that it will reach the value of the Dollar BEFORE the day they begin replacement - only that it will reach the value of the Dollar "by the day" that they begin replacement. They HAVE in fact already increased the value by a few pips, and could conceivably continue to do that gradually until the new Dinar is ready for release. Those few pips make no substantial difference to us as investors, unless they do the entire increase at one time, and there is a way to exchange back to U.S. Dollars prior to the issuance of the new IQD. That's the only scenario I can see which would make sense. They certainly can't increase the value by 1,000 times, and THEN redenominate. That would completely eliminate the advantage of the RD, and cost them $60 Trillion Dollars. Unless, like you said, "we're missing something." As Darin said, there's no way they're going to announce an RV prior to its happening. That would be economically devastating, to put it mildly. Doesn't hurt to hope tho, does it?

That goes double for me Umbertino. Those desperate to believe are going to neg you for stating the obvious when it goes against their dreams. Anytime the news is bad for a week or two, (in this case all the RD articles) site traffic and Dinar sales drop off, and people start thinking more negatively. Something has to be done to restore interest, and that usually means "top secret intel" which just can't be revealed "quite yet," but it should be here "soon." That brings the cheerleaders back to life for a while. As much as I'd love to believe that there's even a remote possibility that we'll see a straight RV to .10 cents, the evidence indicates that it's virtually impossible. Even a "measly" $6 TRILLION RV would instantly add an additional 2/3 to the TOTAL world money supply. That simply can't happen without wrecking the world economy overnight, and it's already on life support. Most people that I've talked to believe the lowball figure to be nothing more than a clever marketing technique to sell even MORE Dinars. Those providing the intel are merely manipulating the market. People feel confident that if it comes out at $1.00 they have enough to be comfortable, but at .10 cents, they better buy more, just in case. So, as always, we wait and see. Nice to see you making the effort to keep it real. As always, I think Dinarck and JMW are right on the money in their thinking.

Yeah, I agree. I just think it makes more sense to RD & RV simultaneously, for the purpose of avoiding confusion. If the NEW IQD comes out already valued at or near $1 USD, it seems to me it would be viewed with more acceptance, and more excitement. I would think that the fewer adjustments made, the better. But who knows?

What's your thinking there, DCK? I'm not sure I understand. Wouldn't it be easier, and cheaper to increase the value to, or above, $1 U.S. Dollar "after" re-denominating, rather than before? What do they gain by doing it before? Maybe I'm missing something important.

It seems that almost every day now, the articles are becoming more clear in their description of the pending redenomination, implying that it has been approved, or is about to be, and that contracts are being issued for the design and printing of the new currency with as many as four different countries, to begin early next year. They are describing new 1 ,2, 5, 10, 25 ,50, 100 and 200 Dinar notes, as well as 50 and 250 fil coins. It's impossible to deduce an exact value from those numbers, but somewhere around $1 U.S. Dollar would seem logical, given the existence of the 200 Dinar note. Contract with four international companies for the printing of new currency Friday, March 23 / March 2012 09:47 MP / Kurdistan Alliance bloc / Mahma Khalil, all contracted the Iraqi Central Bank with (4) known international companies for the printing of new currency for the printing of the new national currency after you delete the zeros of which, describing the project to delete the three zeroes from the currency as "successful" and the time is ideal for replacing them. Khalil said (of the Agency news) on Sunday: The project to delete three zeros from the local currency is one of the important projects and at all levels, whether for economic or security to the country, pointing out that the topic of the program by the central bank and a good time to replace the ideal currency, which will be early next year. He pointed out: that the central bank has contracted with (4) well-known international companies, and solid in the field of international currency printing, without giving their names or nationalities, saying: that it is too early to announce the nationalities of those companies. Khalil added: The new currency will be a high specification and have the properties of security is very high is not as easy to be forged, in addition to the federal government has (25) organ The allergic and high distinguishes new currency counterfeit of good as well as import (25) another ATM by the central bank to detect counterfeit currency, calling for attribution and support this project because it will reform the Iraqi currency by reducing the money supply raised in the local markets. The Attorney-Khalil: The new currency will consist of the categories (1, 2, 5, 10, 25 and 50, 100, 200) dinars, as well as small metal groups (50 and 250) fils. As revealed deputy governor of the Central Bank of the appearance of Mohammed in favor of the existence of safety properties of high-tech and scientifically advanced in the new Iraqi currency after deletion of zeros of the three of them. Saleh said in an earlier statement that the Central Bank of Iraq has reached advanced stages of preparations for the mission logistics project to delete the three zeroes from the Iraqi currency, and after obtaining approval from the federal government to implement it will be working on a larger scale because it is a legitimate strategic interest to the general of the Iraqi people. http://hammdann.net/...37-36&Itemid=73

Sonny......honestly, I'm confused. THAT article is probably the MOST clear RD statement which has been made so far. It CLEARLY states in the very FIRST sentence...... "AFTER deleting three zeros from it, as Samay central bank to raise the value of the dinar against the dollar gradually down to the day to start replacement where the value will be in the absence of a fluctuation of Iraqi dinars and one equivalent of U.S. $ one. HOW can you possibly see that as anything other than a redenomination? Please enlighten me. I really want to understand why you can't see what they're saying when it's so clearly spelled out.

I guess I would have to agree that removing "two" zeros would be OK,......EXCEPT that there has been absolutely no discussion about removing 2 - every article and media statement has been about removing 3 zeros. Without a doubt, it would be better for us if they removed NO zeros, and increased the value gradually. Unfortunately, given current conditions, if allowed to "float," the value could also decrease. As far as accuracy of the numbers go, every country in the world does their audits the same way. Obviously no country goes into individual homes to count currency, and yet they STILL know what their financials are. The same is true of Iraq. They could be off "slightly," but not by "trillions." At this point, based on the available evidence, we have to assume that they will RD, and "hope" for a substantial simultaneous RV. OR, hope that the GOI ultimately rejects the proposed RD, and that at some point in the future, they increase the value in small increments, as is normally the case with any other currency. They tend to fluctuate, up AND down with the markets.

Yep, I agree. The human brain is an amazing organ, and inputted data can have the same euphoric effects as a drug. I'm not sure how long it takes to design, print and distribute a new currency set, let alone for the slow-moving G.O.I. to implement the laws required to make it happen, but the September date mentioned in a bunch of the articles doesn't seem unreasonable. I sure HOPE we know by then, but I won't be a bit surprised if it takes longer. 42 months of this insanity is WAY too much. I can't even imagine how Umbertino and some of the others who have been waiting 6-8 YEARS are feeling by now. What a ride! At any rate, the speculators have paid the costs of design, printing and distribution many times over, so it's time they do SOMETHING, one way or the other.