***Steve Ernorsste post***

[ZigsQuote]

Have you tried reading, The Dancing Wu Lee Masters, a laymen's guide to understanding quantum physics?

What you find in the end would shock you.

Now as far as Angles and Demons, well science is a religion of its own and it would never attempt to prove such things as doing so would negate its own faith. Having said that the prof is inside you. Each day I ask God for the ability to see beyond the veil between this world and the spiritual world. I want to see my enemy coming at me. What I have noticed is that over time I didnt see the demons with my natural eye, but slowly I began to see people for what they truly are.

I have been told that I can read people so well that it almost seems to be psychic. Now we both know Im not a psychic, so what happened to me?

I believe that God has opened my inner eye and with the Holy Spirit he helps me to discern what I see. And that is the work of Angles and Demons.

I tell you this because God will give to all men liberally. If you want your faith to increase then seek the kingdom of heaven first. Then ask him to put in you the desires of his heart. He will show you his perfect will. Of course it will come only in his time, and that im sorry to say seems like forever to us mere mortals.

Thanks for an honest reply J.F. The book you recommended sure has a strange sounding title, but I am intrigued so I ordered a good used copy on Amazon for $1.41. How's that for a deal? I'm lovin their new huge network of book sellers and the great used prices.

Now then, I must argue with you. Science is NOT a religion of it's own. Religion is a belief system based on faith. The scientific method accepts nothing on faith. It presents a hypothesis and then proceeds to demonstrate the validity of that hypothesis through tests and experiments and only presents it as theory or fact after failing to be able to disprove it.

The proof is inside me? What is inside me (and you) is a brain. And everything we believe is the result of the workings of that brain. That includes your ability to "read" people. The human brain is an absolutely marvelous devise. I spent 40 years working in digital electronics. Believe it or not our brain is a digital electronic computer. Our very DNA is based on a digital system.

Everything we possess in the way of material wealth and material goods is the product of the human brain working since the dawn of civilization with the raw materials provided in the earth. Where that earth and it's raw materials came from is a mystery to us. But as such one of the human brains evolved tendencies is to try to explain that mystery. A creator god is one of it's hypotheses. But that is what it remains.

Here are two books for you to consider if your mind is still open.

"God: The Failed Hypothesis" by Victor Stenger

"The GOD Part of The Brain" by Matthew Alper

Wish you well friend.

Spence

[AoK]

Wow.

That might just be the most ignorant and ill informed thing I've read on here.

Can you do me a favor?

Can you point out the verse in the Koran where it actually says to kill all jews and christians?

The fact is, you didn't read it.

Someone told you that.

The Holy Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

1:190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors..

1:191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse thanslaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first)fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward ofthose who suppress faith.

9:123 "O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about..."

9:5 "...when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, andestablish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the wayfor them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

9:29 "...Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day... nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

22:19, 20, 21"... those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them."

47:4 "...when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bondfirmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded)"

8:60 "... Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know,but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shallbe repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly."

cf: http://www.pakquran....60&translator=1

I think you get the picture regarding this "religion of peace".

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." (Hosea 4:6 KJ)

[umbertino]

Quote

Angels and demons, God and Satin.

End Quote

"Nights in White Satin" ...Moody Blues. Great song.

This is still a Dinar site, right?

Good one. Thanks.

[umbertino]

Quote

It's now been over 9 months since I purchased my dinar off of a friendly invitation to this "event" and it has been reduced down to lower than toilet humor antics... really? God? God is the one who is causing the delay because we're all too anxious and desperate? Pathetic.

End Quote

Try to relax, buddy.....7 years here and waiting..Just stay cool. You'll last longer

[Kooper]

I still believe!!!

[umbertino]

Quote

I want the pumpers back!

End Quote

Really......I thought I'd never state something like that but...........I'll take hordes of Pumpers back any day should I have the chance to swap them with the Religious Fanatics (they are dangerous)

Kix,

In the middle east everything is fair game for a holy war!

Its what they do best...

Not all. Emirates seem to be super relaxed about it. Dubai, Abu Dhabi, ec.

Quote

People just don't think for themselves They let the world do their thinking for them. They are mentally lazy.

End Quote

I'd say you pretty much nailed it my Friend.

[skyview]

He's right on...God is ALWAYS the one in ultimate control...we just think we have control sometimes

[ATHIM]

ZigsQuote,

"Religion is a belief system based on faith."

This got me thinking. As a Christian I must add that Religion is not just a belief system based on faith alone. Faith became tangible, physical and testable in the person of Jesus. He allowed us to touch, feel, experience and test the performance of faith through His words and actions. Not in the strict scientific method but in a way that people could understand, grow from and relate to in real physical terms. He said that he would be raised from the dead, an insane notion to unbelievers. He predicted the outcome of the action, the crucifixion, and His conclusion was accurate, faith in real terms disproved the “truth” of science in regards to death.

The battle for the soul is fought in the mind; this is perhaps why depictions of Christ display an illumination around His head, His mind was in both the physical and supernatural plain at the same time. The truth that you believe about God is a function of the grace given to you by God, the heresies you believe are the insertions of Satan and his demons whose purpose is to undo the glory of Gods creation. God has, does and will use the Dinar to purify the minds of His faithful. His concern is not our worldly riches but more the embrace He wants to give us when we inherit eternal life, achieved through the purifying struggles we endure.

For me Christ is the fulfillment of faith, the spirit become flesh. It is a matter of faith now for those did not see faith in the flesh to believe on Him. But the experience of our Church expresses without question the incarnation of faith as something real, seen, experienced tested and proven to be real.

“A creator god is one of it's hypotheses. But that is what it remains.” The physical brain cannot comprehend the infinate God but your statement also denies the incarnation.

You questioned another post from J.F., as extracted below;

J.F., - Angels and demons, God and Satin. we are but pawns in a universal spiritual battle, to deny this is to put your head in the sand.

ZigsQuote

“I challenge you to show me one shread of scientific evidence that supports your statement highlighted in red above. It's not there.”

In regards to the above statement by J.F. my understanding would be that we choose to become pawns for God as opposed to being subtly drawn in by Satan to become unknowing pawns in worldy persuits.

You asked him to provide you with the evidence to support his statement “Then I got radically "Saved." I spent the next 34 years as a bible carrying, teaching and preaching,” and look now where you have been lead, to the heart of a sceptic. You are the evidence of your own question.

Edited June 4, 2011 by ATHIM

[ZigsQuote]

ZigsQuote,

"Religion is a belief system based on faith."

This got me thinking. As a Christian I must add that Religion is not just a belief system based on faith alone. Faith became tangible, physical and testable in the person of Jesus. He allowed us to touch, feel, experience and test the performance of faith through His words and actions. Not in the strict scientific method but in a way that people could understand, grow from and relate to in real physical terms. He said that he would be raised from the dead, an insane notion to unbelievers. He predicted the outcome of the action, the crucifixion, and His conclusion was accurate, faith in real terms disproved the “truth” of science in regards to death.

The battle for the soul is fought in the mind; this is perhaps why depictions of Christ display an illumination around His head, His mind was in both the physical and supernatural plain at the same time. The truth that you believe about God is a function of the grace given to you by God, the heresies you believe are the insertions of Satan and his demons whose purpose is to undo the glory of Gods creation. God has, does and will use the Dinar to purify the minds of His faithful. His concern is not our worldly riches but more the embrace He wants to give us when we inherit eternal life, achieved through the purifying struggles we endure.

For me Christ is the fulfillment of faith, the spirit become flesh. It is a matter of faith now for those did not see faith in the flesh to believe on Him. But the experience of our Church expresses without question the incarnation of faith as something real, seen, experienced tested and proven to be real.

“A creator god is one of it's hypotheses. But that is what it remains.” The physical brain cannot comprehend the infinate God but your statement also denies the incarnation.

You questioned another post from J.F., as extracted below;

J.F., - Angels and demons, God and Satin. we are but pawns in a universal spiritual battle, to deny this is to put your head in the sand.

ZigsQuote

“I challenge you to show me one shread of scientific evidence that supports your statement highlighted in red above. It's not there.”

In regards to the above statement by J.F. my understanding would be that we choose to become pawns for God as opposed to being subtly drawn in by Satan to become unknowing pawns in worldy persuits.

You asked him to provide you with the evidence to support his statement “Then I got radically "Saved." I spent the next 34 years as a bible carrying, teaching and preaching,” and look now where you have been lead, to the heart of a sceptic. You are the evidence of your own question.

ATHIM, Thanks for a well thought out and civil response to my posts. You've made several points and I'm not going to try to respond to each of them here because it would take up to much space and make too many of the people who are already loosing patience with all the religion dialog even more upset, rightfully so or not.

Let me just say this. In my 34 years as an Evangelical Christian, I heard, saw and experienced everything that anyone on this site has heard, seen and experienced. I won't go into details. You'll just have to believe me... no pun intended.

I will tell you what exactly it was that made me begin to have serious doubts about my faith. Without bashing them, there is a group of believers in this country and growing around the world through their fervent evangelization, sending out their young men, two by two, door to door. These people are the finest people in the world. They are upstanding citizens, many wealthy, many highly educated, many holding public offices at all levels of government, including a run for the presidency. They are the finest example of family values in the country, except for some of their history and a fringe group or two. I trust you understand who I'm talking about.

Because I had become closely acquainted with a few of these people, I began to study their doctrinal beliefs. The more I read the more bizarre it got. I came to the place of asking myself how could these otherwise intelligent and admirable people believe this utter nonsense. The only conclusion I could come to was that the human mind is capable of incredible self delusion. What other answer is there?

And if that's true, and taking into consideration all of the other bizarre faiths, sects, cults and other world religions out there, maybe we're all deluded. Now I know before you jump on me here that the Christian faith is unique among all other religions, in that it is God reaching down to man as opposed to man trying to work his way up to God. And the bible is unique among all the holy books. I know that. I taught it and witnessed to it.

The gospel message is truly the greatest story ever told. For me however, it has become just that, a story. A story that changed my life. But that's not a unique experience. All of the other evangelical faiths, especially the cults create converts who become radically convinced that they have found the truth also. So yes it is all delusion in my opinion.

I can't tell you how free I feel after coming to that conclusion. Even freer (is that a word?) than I felt the night I "surrendered my life to Christ" in that lonely motel room on Tuesday of Thanksgiving week, 1973, and in the days and weeks following. It was a great ride. The only real regret I have is that the second sermon my wife and I heard as baby Christians was on tithing. We went home, decided it was something we needed to do and 34 years later I was astounded to estimate the total of what I had given to the various local churches and other ministries we supported.

Well ATHIM, there you have it. That's my story and I'm stickin to it. Hope you can find the answers to your challenges to me in this.

Thanks again for your response and I wish you well. Wish there was some easy way to continue these dialogs.

Spence

[ATHIM]

ZigsQuote

You are an intelligent rational person and I appreciate also your civil response to my post. I know the groups of which you speak. I have also have been dissapointed with their doctrine, methods and more importantly, the spirit with which they conduct themselves which to me, falls well short of what a believer would consider to be the true Spirit of God, a sprit which turns many away, I say this even though I still personally love many of them.

God does not want your money in tithes He wants us to tithe our souls. Unfortunately since the great schism in the Church that occurred over 1,000 years ago heretical beliefs have established thousands of offshoot denominations that bring mixed truth to the table so as to delude the elect of God and they shall answer for their distortions upon Christ’s return.

I am going to go way out on a limb here; as you may have gathered God holds the utmost significance in my life. God has a plan for each and it works in the most profound and other worldly way. God waits for us during this life to come to Him. I can see by what you shared that you have certainly put in the groundwork from which I would guess you deserve something better out of the deal than what you got, even on an earthly level of exchange.

God, as I have seen it, has used this platform to teach and share His presence through those that call themselves believers. If you have read posts on this site you will feel the mixed spirit that they bring to these forums, some spirits are correct and some are not. If we believe that God is infallible and that His Spirit is one, then “Christians” should come forward with different ideas but mainly rooted in the same Spirit and that is not what we see. With all the mixed and miss information we get on this site in regards to the Dinar, it is hard to discern the truth from lies, this is a microcosm of what the Church has experienced throughout its history. I would never have the opportunity to communicate with you in this way if it was not for the Dinar and maybe, just maybe, God knows at which point the Dinar will revalue and is using the time in between to reach those He will. Maybe you and I, and those just like us reaching a certain point will help God propagate His kingdom. On a personal note, all the tithes that you gave, while they may seem, to some extent wasted, may have been the evidence of faith that God needed to help you arrive at a better place today and on a financial level, the RV should give you back more than you tithed.

It appears that you are an avid reader, a gift that unfortunately God has not given to me and if I might suggest a book that may change your life and eternity as I feel it may speak to you in a profound way. My brother, I pray you find the peace that God has intended for all of us. The link to the book is below seeing as though you like Amazon.

May God bless us all.

http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Orthodox-Peter-Gillquist/dp/1936270005

[Legolas]

I spent 30 years growing up, basically agnostic. Then I got radically "Saved." I spent the next 34 years as a bible carrying, teaching and preaching, "Born Again" Evangelical Christian. 4 years ago I began a de-conversion process that has been a struggle, but I am now a very happy "Born Again Skeptic."

I challenge you to show me one shread of scientific evidence that supports your statement highlighted in red above. It's not there.

Wow. This has been the best discussion on religion I've seen in 3 years on these forums. Welcome back to the world of rationale and reason ZigsQuote. VERY well done and excellent job of presenting your position. I never cease to be amazed by the astounding numbers of individuals who argue voraciously from a position of self-imposed ignorance, obviously never having read their bibles from cover to cover. Lonzworth's demand that it be demonstrated "where in the Koran it says that non-believers should be killed" was a classic example of people believing what they are told rather than doing their own research. In a matter of seconds, both you and AOK provided the needed proof that these bibles are replete with the evidence that most do not wish to believe exists. Keep up the good work. If only more people would take the time to educate themselves instead of assuming the role of sheep, the world would be a far better place. Iraq is a classic example.

[ZigsQuote]

Wow. This has been the best discussion on religion I've seen in 3 years on these forums. Welcome back to the world of rationale and reason ZigsQuote. VERY well done and excellent job of presenting your position. I never cease to be amazed by the astounding numbers of individuals who argue voraciously from a position of self-imposed ignorance, obviously never having read their bibles from cover to cover. Lonzworth's demand that it be demonstrated "where in the Koran it says that non-believers should be killed" was a classic example of people believing what they are told rather than doing their own research. In a matter of seconds, both you and AOK provided the needed proof that these bibles are replete with the evidence that most do not wish to believe exists. Keep up the good work. If only more people would take the time to educate themselves instead of assuming the role of sheep, the world would be a far better place. Iraq is a classic example.

Thanks for the kind words Legolas. It's wonderful to be back indeed.

[storehouse]

I thought this was a good post until I read "GOD"... Why is it that people always have to bring that up? Don't you think "GOD" Would want this for the People of Iraq? Starving and Armless? Imagine Their Obsession...

Almost got a +1... Almost. -1

Krem

Romans 13:1 - Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

[ZigsQuote]

ZigsQuote

You are an intelligent rational person and I appreciate also your civil response to my post. I know the groups of which you speak. I have also have been dissapointed with their doctrine, methods and more importantly, the spirit with which they conduct themselves which to me, falls well short of what a believer would consider to be the true Spirit of God, a sprit which turns many away, I say this even though I still personally love many of them.

God does not want your money in tithes He wants us to tithe our souls. Unfortunately since the great schism in the Church that occurred over 1,000 years ago heretical beliefs have established thousands of offshoot denominations that bring mixed truth to the table so as to delude the elect of God and they shall answer for their distortions upon Christ’s return.

I am going to go way out on a limb here; as you may have gathered God holds the utmost significance in my life. God has a plan for each and it works in the most profound and other worldly way. God waits for us during this life to come to Him. I can see by what you shared that you have certainly put in the groundwork from which I would guess you deserve something better out of the deal than what you got, even on an earthly level of exchange.

God, as I have seen it, has used this platform to teach and share His presence through those that call themselves believers. If you have read posts on this site you will feel the mixed spirit that they bring to these forums, some spirits are correct and some are not. If we believe that God is infallible and that His Spirit is one, then “Christians” should come forward with different ideas but mainly rooted in the same Spirit and that is not what we see. With all the mixed and miss information we get on this site in regards to the Dinar, it is hard to discern the truth from lies, this is a microcosm of what the Church has experienced throughout its history. I would never have the opportunity to communicate with you in this way if it was not for the Dinar and maybe, just maybe, God knows at which point the Dinar will revalue and is using the time in between to reach those He will. Maybe you and I, and those just like us reaching a certain point will help God propagate His kingdom. On a personal note, all the tithes that you gave, while they may seem, to some extent wasted, may have been the evidence of faith that God needed to help you arrive at a better place today and on a financial level, the RV should give you back more than you tithed.

It appears that you are an avid reader, a gift that unfortunately God has not given to me and if I might suggest a book that may change your life and eternity as I feel it may speak to you in a profound way. My brother, I pray you find the peace that God has intended for all of us. The link to the book is below seeing as though you like Amazon.

May God bless us all.

http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/1936270005

Thanks for the book link ATHIM. I read the reviews. Actually that was something I thought about from time to time as I dealt with some of the both lack of conviction and then excesses in the various churches I was part of. But that was then. This is now. No more church for me.

To set the record straight on tithing - The old testament clearly teaches that God DOES want 10% of your money. It supported the priesthood then, and of course it supports the churches now, in a pretty lavish way in most cases I might add. I had a pastor that taught that if 10% was good enough under the law, how much more so under grace? Made good sense to me at the time.

Well that's history. Later friend.

[ATHIM]

ZigsQuote

Respect. While the Old Testament teaches a tithe of 10% and this is beneficial, the tithe of the soul is what God first desires once the soul is tithed every earthly possession of the individual are available for God’s disposal. It is the spirit that God is pleased with not the law. Your comment though is indicative of the indoctrination you suffered.

“No more church for me.” You have not yet been to Church you have been teased with half truth.

[MrRich]

I spent 30 years growing up, basically agnostic. Then I got radically "Saved." I spent the next 34 years as a bible carrying, teaching and preaching, "Born Again" Evangelical Christian. 4 years ago I began a de-conversion process that has been a struggle, but I am now a very happy "Born Again Skeptic."

I challenge you to show me one shread of scientific evidence that supports your statement highlighted in red above. It's not there.

Interesting post, Zigs. I've had a similar experience myself. Although I was never an agnostic I have been through some conversions in my beliefs. I was raised Baptist and was baptized when I was 8. At 17 I met some kids from a Pentecostal church and became "Spirit-filled". I moved to Tulsa in 1982 to go to a charismatic bible school. After I graduated I got involved somewhat in ministry and began to notice some things. Many people who went to these charismatic megachurches were dirt poor and uneducated. They would drive their old dilapidated cars to church and throw their money at the ministers hoping to get their hundredfold return. I witnessed a lot of other nonsense that I won't go into and finally got fed up and started attending a Presbyterian church. There was no prosperity gospel preached there ... no gifts of the Spirit or laying on of hands or anything. And yet the people in that church were more prosperous than the people attending the prosperity teaching churches. That baffled me at first until I began to recognize that everybody there seemed to be a college graduate. Then a light came on. They just figured out how to use the brain that God gave them and didn't worry about any of the sensational supernatural stuff.

Whereas you returned to your skeptical agnostic views I made a transition to a more liberal view of scripture. I no longer feel the need to interpret the bible literally and now I rely more on my own intellect and reasoning than I do on "miracles". I have no problem now with the theory of evolution. I no longer believe in talking snakes. And when somebody tells me that God spoke to them I default to a position of skepticism or even cynicism. That's why I'm not on board with this George Robinson guy. If his prophecy is right then I'm in trouble because I will have to go back to the drawing board on my theology I guess, and at the age of 54 I really don't want to do that. But if he's wrong it will further solidify my views.

While I don't begrudge anybody their views or experiences I have accepted the fact that I am no longer an evangelical, fundamentalist, charismatic ... etc. I am a Christian who believes the bible is divinely inspired but written and interpreted by flawed human beings. It is a good book for matters of faith and morality but if used improperly it can really mess things up in practical day to day living. That's why I feel that people should leave religion out of this investment. I mean would somebody quote scripture and reveal what God said to them about buying into a mutual fund or real estate venture? Probably not, but because Iraq has a link to the biblical Babylon many feel that this is more than a speculative investment. It's a mission from God and fulfillment of prophecy. I often wonder if a lop happens what will happen to their faith? Nothing will happen to mine of course because it's totally separate from the dinar and every other investment I'm involved in.

[Legolas]

Interesting post, Zigs. I've had a similar experience myself. Although I was never an agnostic I have been through some conversions in my beliefs. I was raised Baptist and was baptized when I was 8. At 17 I met some kids from a Pentecostal church and became "Spirit-filled". I moved to Tulsa in 1982 to go to a charismatic bible school. After I graduated I got involved somewhat in ministry and began to notice some things. Many people who went to these charismatic megachurches were dirt poor and uneducated. They would drive their old dilapidated cars to church and throw their money at the ministers hoping to get their hundredfold return. I witnessed a lot of other nonsense that I won't go into and finally got fed up and started attending a Presbyterian church. There was no prosperity gospel preached there ... no gifts of the Spirit or laying on of hands or anything. And yet the people in that church were more prosperous than the people attending the prosperity teaching churches. That baffled me at first until I began to recognize that everybody there seemed to be a college graduate. Then a light came on. They just figured out how to use the brain that God gave them and didn't worry about any of the sensational supernatural stuff.

Whereas you returned to your skeptical agnostic views I made a transition to a more liberal view of scripture. I no longer feel the need to interpret the bible literally and now I rely more on my own intellect and reasoning than I do on "miracles". I have no problem now with the theory of evolution. I no longer believe in talking snakes. And when somebody tells me that God spoke to them I default to a position of skepticism or even cynicism. That's why I'm not on board with this George Robinson guy. If his prophecy is right then I'm in trouble because I will have to go back to the drawing board on my theology I guess, and at the age of 54 I really don't want to do that. But if he's wrong it will further solidify my views.

While I don't begrudge anybody their views or experiences I have accepted the fact that I am no longer an evangelical, fundamentalist, charismatic ... etc. I am a Christian who believes the bible is divinely inspired but written and interpreted by flawed human beings. It is a good book for matters of faith and morality but if used improperly it can really mess things up in practical day to day living. That's why I feel that people should leave religion out of this investment. I mean would somebody quote scripture and reveal what God said to them about buying into a mutual fund or real estate venture? Probably not, but because Iraq has a link to the biblical Babylon many feel that this is more than a speculative investment. It's a mission from God and fulfillment of prophecy. I often wonder if a lop happens what will happen to their faith? Nothing will happen to mine of course because it's totally separate from the dinar and every other investment I'm involved in.

As always, I find the writings of Mr. Rich to come from a position of level-headed, analytical thinking. My personal view of religion, for the most part at least, is that the world would be a much better place were it to claim a spot in history where it belongs - alongside the likes of Greek and Roman Mythology. While the 226+ different religions and belief systems which have thus far survived extinction contain many beautiful stories, and a few worthwhile moral edicts, they also contain far more evil, brutality, sexism and outright nonsense and misinformation when one actually takes the time to conduct an extensive study of their various belief systems.

That being said, the position taken by Mr. Rich is one that even many atheists would find palatable, if only EVERY believer on the planet was sufficiently educated and equally rational. Unfortunately, this is not the case. I've read many dozens of well-written books on both sides of the religion arguments, and have written one of my own, but I recently read one by Dan Barker, titled: "Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists" which I found to be exceptionally interesting. Although for me, it was essentially preaching to the choir, I found the story of his life fascinating, and am EXTREMELY curious as to whether reading his book would have any effect on the belief systems of the average "believer."

Mr. Rich.....I would be most interested in your own opinion of this book, and whether it might move you any further in one direction or the other. It is available on Amazon, as well as at many public libraries. If nothing else, it would be nice if everyone would read the description and reviews at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Godless-Evangelical-Preacher-Americas-Atheists/dp/1569756775/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307198794&sr=1-2.

Too many valuable posts like those written in this particular topic get buried and remain unread by a vast majority of the people who would benefit from reading them.

[odogtriever]

I spent 30 years growing up, basically agnostic. Then I got radically "Saved." I spent the next 34 years as a bible carrying, teaching and preaching, "Born Again" Evangelical Christian. 4 years ago I began a de-conversion process that has been a struggle, but I am now a very happy "Born Again Skeptic."

I challenge you to show me one shread of scientific evidence that supports your statement highlighted in red above. It's not there.

Brother, I think you may have put too much faith in man. You are obviously ask still searching. Christianity was never about religion, man did that. Christianity is about a relationship with a living God. All our troubles ultimately lead us to God or away from him. My experience is that men will always fail us. That's why religion has failed. Christ wasn't about religion, he was about relationship.

[umbertino]

Quote

Because I had become closely acquainted with a few of these people, I began to study their doctrinal beliefs. The more I read the more bizarre it got. I came to the place of asking myself how could these otherwise intelligent and admirable people believe this utter nonsense. The only conclusion I could come to was that the human mind is capable of incredible self delusion. What other answer is there?

End Quote

Agreed . Appreciated all of your post . Interesting indeed and food for thought. Thank you.

Quote

Wow. This has been the best discussion on religion I've seen in 3 years on these forums.

End Quote

My thoughts exactly.

[keepmwlknfny]

I am also a Christian. But why is it that so often god when I hear god mentioned over and over, there is a multi level marketing scheme behind it?

Cause they are the easiest to swindle based on something that sounds good but having to put forward "blind faith" Isent that something they preach as well? About blind faith? Its sad really......And they will get a preacher or something to pump whatever it is and of course a man of god wont lie now will he??

[umbertino]

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Many people who went to these charismatic megachurches were dirt poor and uneducated. They would drive their old dilapidated cars to church and throw their money at the ministers hoping to get their hundredfold return. I witnessed a lot of other nonsense that I won't go into

End Quote

Mr.Rich...Exact same ( to a T) experience I had in that year I spent in the US, (1980/81 Bloomington, Indiana) where someone wanted me to attend his Pentecostal Church/Congregation at all costs. I kept telling him thanks but no thanks very politely .....But after much insisting on his part ( you know what I'm talking about) I finally gave in and went along with him a couple of times....I felt that same sensation you so well described. There would be a lot more to say about it but I'll stop here.

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Then a light came on. They just figured out how to use the brain that God gave them and didn't worry about any of the sensational supernatural stuff.

End Quote

YES.Thank you.

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I am a Christian who believes the bible is divinely inspired but written and interpreted by flawed human beings. It is a good book for matters of faith and morality but if used improperly it can really mess things up in practical day to day living.

End Quote

Agreed.

Edited June 4, 2011 by umbertino

[Hamels]

Cause they are the easiest to swindle based on something that sounds good but having to put forward "blind faith" Isent that something they preach as well? About blind faith? Its sad really......And they will get a preacher or something to pump whatever it is and of course a man of god wont lie now will he??

Blind Faith, wasn't that a band in the 60's with Eric Clapton???

[Sal0525]

Sheep... Wow, those tha believe that Muslims are meant to kill Christians, are commanded by God to kill Christians, that it isn't the same God as the one you worship other than small differences in man's interpretations. They are the sheep. All three religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam comes from Abraham. One believes, tha Jesus was nothing or didnt really exist and that Mohammed wasn't a prophet, the other believing that Mohammed wasn't a prophet and the other killed their savior, and one who believes that Jesus wasn't a God bu a prophet and Mohammed is one.

Then you have all of them hat share the same ignorant people who hold down their women, call the other evil, rape their children, marry multiple wives, call for holy wars and basically do acts of evil justifying it with parts of their religion that is takn out of context. An eye for an eye, Christian verse. Kill every man, woman, child, animal? Told to Joshua when he destroyed Jericho...

Evil is evil, no matter what anyone uses to justify it. All three religions, believe it or not and I challenge anyone to get a Quran, believe overall in goodness. If that wasn't so, then the Albanians, who are Muslim, never should have sheltered the Jews from the Christian Nazi forces.

Sheep..., wow... Repeating what you heard from the far right without seeing for yourself is a clear example of that.

Negative away, I am not a sheep...

[umbertino]

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While the 226+ different religions and belief systems which have thus far survived extinction contain many beautiful stories, and a few worthwhile moral edicts, they also contain far more evil, brutality, sexism and outright nonsense and misinformation when one actually takes the time to conduct an extensive study of their various belief systems.

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Agreed ..... Which leads me to thinking that what a man said more than 100 years ago maybe was not entirely wrong.

He said "Religion is the Opium of Peoples".....I'd tend to concur but that is my personal opinion, of course.

Having said that ........ I do reiterate that I do respect all Religions and I do acknowledge the right of every Individual to practice the Religion of their choice.

Blind Faith, wasn't that a band in the 60's with Eric Clapton???

Yessir. That is correct.

Quote

Evil is evil, no matter what anyone uses to justify it. All three religions, believe it or not and I challenge anyone to get a Quran, believe overall in goodness.

End Quote

But People have always killed throughout History in the name of Religion....Including Christians...What a contradiction of epic proportion.

[automag]

TQueezy..................Ennorste is one of the worst pumpers of all time. He is the E of the get team morons...........He used to be here as well as many other forums but because he is a supreme ego maniac he always gets booted from a forum because he has always tried to take control of any forum he was involved with...............thus he and the other morons Gankans and TerryK got there own forum so that wouldn't happen anymore........besides they couldn't hustle newbies without their own forum because everybody else booted them and usually found them to be the over-inflated ego maniacs I eluded to.

Gankans used to be or seemingly was a normal Dinarian but he was seduced by Lord Vaderennorste to the dark side. I was not on Gankans too much until his post the US government was gonna fall and in his post about it he laid it all out as the truth and nothing but the truth so help him Gankans...............Last straw for me on him......Check the chat logs archives it's in there....I won't waste my time though. But my point is that these guys are just un-real and they have given pumpers a shining example of how to pump....and Pump,Pump,Pump they do indeed........

Ennorste,(that's Latin for Steve), has claimed he has a degree in Theology. He might very well have one but if Theology is the study of God and religion he obviously didn't get the point of all that study as IMO God don't hustle newbies. I don't like ennorste and I have butted heads with him on other forums and believe me he don't like me either. That is the only thing I have ever approved by him....See if the likes of scum like that guy liked me then I would have to be like him and I am not..........

TQueezy........this investement IMO is going to pay off. I used to post a lot here on DV but got tired of bad attitudes and just kinda quit posting as I wasn't intereested in arguing anybody's point of view...So I lurk and stay quiet. drox, LGrahm, Doc31 and many others of us are researchers and we have all kinda gone quiet but I betcha money they too are still positive about all of this and not speaking for them and only for myself I believe we are much closer than we were.............Why? Skip rumor and BS and follow the legal stuff..........Chap 7, DFI, WTO and stick to it. Learn the truth about all of the legal stuff and don't listen to anyone else. Do your own research about all the boring and dry, dull and exhaustive rules and regs put out by all these organizations and you will see it much clearer.....BTW that is only a few of the organizatons to study as there are many more organizations to read upon.

TQueezy................If you can't get a handle on the info then you'll be subjected to the pumpers.......not guru's because there are not any guru's out here...........Guru's are usually right and that's why they are called gurus.........Seen any guru's that were right lately? Me neither.

Stay in this investment...........it will payoff one day . My last prediction was October 2009......See I admitted it. I was wrong......and if this doesn't happen by 06/30/11 then I don't have a clue......we will have to go back to the drawing board..............No more predictions from me though.............Predictions are for peeps who want attentions.......that ain't me. If it doesn't happen by the 30th then for the moment my only true direction will be dictated by Chapter 7 or article 8 from the UN. That is real. Ennorrste and the pumpers are BS

I suggest that you read and consider these people..........SCooTER !!!! He's real good..........Medic Med....................He may be an ego maniac but he is a voracious reader and even if you don't like him he is trying to be straight up about it.......He isn't always right but then who is........most don't like him because they got booted from his sight for reasons they don't agree with......Adam Montana........even he made predictions that were wrong but he is straight up about his info............Most people that think he is a pumper are just flat wrong............he seems to be more about the after RV period and his VIP group are dedicated to that effort but he is not a pumper in that he is making a profit from getting you to buy dinar. Listen to Adam as a base for information to augment your own research............Frank from KTF Missions............I have caught him being wrong many times and he too is accused of being a pumper........He is even going to operate one of Ali's cash in centers in Ohio.............but I believe he and his sight are by far more of a positive than negative.....Oh I am sure there are those who will chastise me for recommending him but I don't care because I never let his information overide my own. Breitling is good to read and even another site's chats are good for reading...One lady I'd like to hear from is Groovegal......but I haven't seen her for awhile........but when she was posting she was very much someone to listen too and consider......She has some real live contacts and I was always intrigued by her information. Bondlady seems to be a credible researcher and she does some good analogies of the news she reports on........

Having made these recommedations you still need to do your own research and get a handle on it and not blindly follow anybody as nobody can effect your thinking on this investment more than you. Your ownself. Otherwise you will be led astray and become as frustrated as your post in this thread suggests............I am sure there are others worthy of reading out here in Dinar World.................But never allow their information to overide your own research and you'll be fine......................But Ennorste?..................Never believe that guy....Mostly because he will enjoy the adulation and want to post more often. Proffessor my A**.

For all those who love Ennorste....let the bashing begin..........at least I'll know what you believe in and know that your info is BS like his........Be Cool TQueezy.