***Steve Ernorsste post***

[Sal0525]

People have killed in the name of love, jealousy, hatred, the state and perceived justice before the concept of religion. It is the manipulation of religion by psychopaths that is the problem. Power is what this it is all about, never truly about religion...

[abelgd11]

JMHO...The media and groups such as this love and embrace all types of things and activities. They are fine with drinking alcohol and smokin' a little weed here and there. It's great for guys to wear their pants down around their thighs so that we all have to look at their nasty asses. It's seen as chic to have girls making out with each other in advertisements and prime time television (network and not cable). Homosexual rights is a huge agenda. Piercing your nipples, nose, lips, eye brows and gentalia are common place. Having tattoos with violent themes of demons, death, skulls, nude women on display for little children to view. Embracing and making provision for muslims in public places is now the norm. But, mention the God of Christians in a well thought out post and look out....it's open season on them/us.

Shame on you who do that! If hearing the word "God" offends you so bad, dude, just change the channel. Nobody is making you read and abusive comments or commentaries are not needed by anyone in any forum at any time. I've read a lot of dinar forums. I like to stay grounded and keep a level head concerning this investment. However, this is the most anit-Christian agenda site I've seen for people who are invested in dinars. People go out of their way on this site to trash good posts or to ***** and moan because they happened to see the word "God" or "prayer" as it relates to the God of Christians. I seriously doubt there would be any "outrage" by some of the most vocal respondents on this list if it were the god of any other organized religion mentioned in a post.

Edited June 4, 2011 by abelgd11

[MrRich]

For all those who love Ennorste....let the bashing begin..........at least I'll know what you believe in and know that your info is BS like his........Be Cool TQueezy.

No bashing from me, automag. Excellent crash course on Enorrste. I never knew what "enorrste" means but now I do. I have never encountered a more arrogant person in the world of the dinar. What gets me is the fact that his analysis is so often flawed and easily debunked. Once I read a post where he stated that Obama grew up in Chicago, Nixon was backed by the mafia, and that Nixon is today seen as one of the greatest presidents of the 20th century. In another post he stated that the demonstrations in Wisconsin were linked to the uprising in Arab nations like Libya, Egypt, Syria ... etc. But he didn't stop there. He then said that if you don't agree with him on that point you're blind and ignorant. And yet with both of these posts people were complimenting him on a great presentation of his views. I'll grant you he's a good writer. But there has to be more to good writing than writing skills. You also need to have a logical, factual argument in my opinion. And that's one thing he lacked in abundance. I appreciate your efforts to inform people about his background and ego. Keep up the good work.

[ZigsQuote]

OK, back online. Took the grandsons fishin this morning but temperature is over 100 now so back inside we come.

ATHIM....... The indoctrination you say I suffered was this: I was taught that God wanted the first 10% of my income, as a minumum under grace, and ALL of my self, not just 10%. You used the word soul, but I could never find anyone that could adequately define that word for me. It's related to spirit I guess, but once again I can not find any evidence anywhere that a spirit realm exists.

You say that "I have not yet been to church and have only been teased with half truths." WOW, that's pretty accusatory and condemning of mainline evangelical Christianity don't you think. I belonged to 2 Pentacostal churches, 1 Nazerenne church and 1 Southern Baptist church, in that order. I also spoke in all protestant churches as a member of The Gideons International.

Now I certainly understand the difference between the "local church" and THE church, the "called out ones, the bride of Christ." But if the 3 denominations I mentioned do not have the whole truth and you are insinuating that the "Orthodox" church, the subject of the book you recommended to me, does, then you just eliminated about 99.99% of Christendom that's counting on their understanding to get them to heaven of ever making it.

Well there's good news. There is no such place. Well good news at least since that means there's no such place as hell either. This is all we've got folks. Make the best of it.

MR RICH.......... I understand and appreciate your experiences. If you're comfortable with the liberal church, then fine. From where I am, they are all simply based in delusion. To go into detail on that would be impossible here and pointless besides.

By the way, I really don't begrudge anyone their religion. I do believe religion has contributed much good to society (despite all the bad). But all those good things are really just the componants of ethics and philosophy. And those things eminate from the human brain, not from a god.

LEGOLAS.......... The book you recommended to Mr. Rich is an excellent one. I have met Dan Barker personally and got a grand tour of the organization he heads, The Freedom From Religion Foundation. He introduced me to his brother and father and I became good friends with his brother.

I had called that organization when I first began my quest for the whole truth and asked if they could recommend someone that I could talk with that had been where I was, a devout Christian, and who had gone through what I was going through. Viola! None other than their Director, Dan Barker.

I highly recommend his books. The one you recommended wasn't published yet at that time but his first book "Loosing Faith in Faith, From Preacher to Atheist" was, and it's the same story. I recommend them to anyone who is in that place.

And finally, ODOGTRIEVER......... If you have read all of my post in this thread and you don't think I understand that, you need to re-read them.

[bright]

IMO this is just the great GET team at work playing on religion kinda like one of our political parties............faith in god is easy to draw interest, most people will not bash faith(except Bill Mayer)..........the GET team has made predictions so many times so now they play the religious card to try to bring in some folks......dinar pumping is at a all time low.........I see a lot of new members that are their prey........

[zantac]

However, it also seems clear to me that the delay is ultimately in the hands of God

Well if God is at fault will some one please PM Frank26 to ring him & tell him to stop messing with folks dreams & emotions?

Get real MAN enrost has great words, great literature but so far from the truth the Titanic would have more chance of landing at the port before him

[Legolas]

MR RICH.......... I understand and appreciate your experiences. If you're comfortable with the liberal church, then fine. From where I am, they are all simply based in delusion. To go into detail on that would be impossible here and pointless besides.

By the way, I really don't begrudge anyone their religion. I do believe religion has contributed much good to society (despite all the bad). But all those good things are really just the componants of ethics and philosophy. And those things eminate from the human brain, not from a god.

LEGOLAS.......... The book you recommended to Mr. Rich is an excellent one. I have met Dan Barker [/color][/size][/b]personally and got a grand tour of the organization he heads, The Freedom From Religion Foundation. He introduced me to his brother and father and I became good friends with his brother.

I had called that organization when I first began my quest for the whole truth and asked if they could recommend someone that I could talk with that had been where I was, a devout Christian, and who had gone through what I was going through. Viola! None other than their Director, Dan Barker.

I highly recommend his books. The one you recommended wasn't published yet at that time but his first book "Loosing Faith in Faith, From Preacher to Atheist" was, and it's the same story. I recommend them to anyone who is in that place.

Great to hear, Zigs. Barker definitely gets around, and I've been told their foundation does some awesome work. I was fascinated by his story, believing that if someone so deeply involved and entrenched in religion as he was could do such an astounding about face, then there was undoubtedly more hope than I believed possible for the typical person of faith. The book was impressive. Keep up the good work.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Legolas

[ZigsQuote]

LEGOLAS........... Re: Dan Barker and The Freedom From Religion Foundation, I love his books because I can so strongly relate to his story but I don't really like what the mission of the foundation is and that's basically to remove God from public life. Their whole thing is the so called "separation of church and state" doctrine which I never believed as a Christian and still don't simply because the most important thing for me is TRUTH.

The establishment clause of the constitution was written to protect freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. That's the truth of that matter. I'm through with religion but most people aren't and I'm not about to pretend that my beliefs should trump theirs. I also believe the founding fathers were mostly religious men to one degree or another and that means that America does in fact have a religious heritage and foundation. I'm certainly not going to pretend that isn't true.

[THINK.....]

just once i am waiting for someone to say it wasn't God holding up this RV but it was really Satan all along holding it up.

Well, actually it is. Got it from Ozzie himself.

[Legolas]

LEGOLAS........... Re: Dan Barker and The Freedom From Religion Foundation, I love his books because I can so strongly relate to his story but I don't really like what the mission of the foundation is and that's basically to remove God from public life. Their whole thing is the so called "separation of church and state" doctrine which I never believed as a Christian and still don't simply because the most important thing for me is TRUTH.

The establishment clause of the constitution was written to protect freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. That's the truth of that matter. I'm through with religion but most people aren't and I'm not about to pretend that my beliefs should trump theirs. I also believe the founding fathers were mostly religious men to one degree or another and that means that America does in fact have a religious heritage and foundation. I'm certainly not going to pretend that isn't true.

Zigs.......While I would agree with your basic premise regarding the constitutional meaning of "Freedom OF Religion," my personal opinion is that now, in the 21st century, 235 years after its original writing, Freedom FROM religion has become an important and worthwhile goal for our planet. Further, I believe that the most prominent of our founding fathers, Jefferson and Adams, made their feelings regarding religious belief fairly clear in their "personal" writings, as indicated in a few of their quotes below. The fact that they kept those feelings out of our constitution indicates only that they believed strongly in separation of Church and State, and are to be commended for that. I think the Freedom From Religion Foundation deserves more attention and support - worldwide.

“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.” Thomas Jefferson

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Thomas Jefferson.

“The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.” President John Adams

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?” President John Adams - Letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

“Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.” President Thomas Jefferson - Letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

“Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.” President Thomas Jefferson - Letter to James Smith, 1822.

“The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious…One only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites” President Thomas Jefferson

“Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution that he may endure for centuries before he expires.” President John Adams

“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! “ President John Adams

“The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.” President John Adams

“Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.” President John Adams

“This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it.” President John Adams

“My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built on the purest of all moral systems, for the purpose of deriving from it pence and power, revolts those who think for themselves, and who read in that system only what is really there.” President Thomas Jefferson

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.” President Thomas Jefferson

“Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.” President Thomas Jefferson

“Lighthouses are more useful than churches.” Benjamin Franklin, Scientist/Statesman/Diplomat

[ZigsQuote]

LEGOLAS............ Wow, you have taken me by surprise with all those quotes. I can only say right now that several of them are taken out of context and as such do not represent the true belief of the author. I will get back to you when I can. Rest assured that we are still one with respect to religion.

[Legolas]

LEGOLAS............ Wow, you have taken me by surprise with all those quotes. I can only say right now that several of them are taken out of context and as such do not represent the true belief of the author. I will get back to you when I can. Rest assured that we are still one with respect to religion.

I've researched dozens of them Zigs. Somewhat surprisingly, there are many more. He never claimed to be an atheist as far as I can determine, often stating that he believed in his "own" god and religion, even assembling and editing a "Jefferson Bible." But he appears to have been very much opposed to organized religion, and many of his quotes are easy to find, as are those of John Adams and others.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Legolas

[shiFT_yourworld]

Oh shut up poppy. Everyone knows your a moron.

[ROACH]

Well there's good news. There is no such place. Well good news at least since that means there's no such place as hell either. This is all we've got folks. Make the best of it

Read more:

My heart pains to read that, as it is so clearly obvious that you know your scriptures better than most, baptist preachers.

I want to do something here that I am a little concerned might cause me some issues, Nevertheless, something tells me that you might benefit from this. If so then Praise God, If not then please understand that what I have wrote I have done not only because of my love for Jesus Christ, but my love for humanity as a whole. Muslim, Jew, Christian, Atheist ... and the rest, I pray that God will use these words to his glory....

There is nothing that I can say that would change your mind, of this I am sure, so I am not making any attempt to do so. I simply want to tell you about my experience with Christ, what you do with that is up to you.

I was raised Lutheran, but at the age of 13 my sister had an affair with the preacher and his wife found out. So she decided to confront him with it on a Sunday morning. Thus ended my family going to church. It did not, however, end Gods dealing with me.

From the age of 13 to 18 I lived as secular a life as any teenager, and have suffered the consequences of that my entire life.

It was one Sunday while I was 18 that I felt like going to church, I went alone and do not remember why. Just did. I heard the gospel preached for the first time in my life and indeed was quite moved by it. At the end of the service the preacher told us that if we wanted to give our life to Jesus we could simply stand up and say this little prayer. I followed his prayer and thought myself to be saved, as they call it.

A few weeks later I joined the Marines and was stationed in Hawaii, KMCAS 3rd bat/ 3rd marines H co. I know what a rough duty station. We went on a west-pac and one fly-away to Okinawa. So as you can imagine it did not take me long to forget about the commitment I supposedly made with God.

It was in Hawaii that I met a young man through a collage program who introduced me to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As you probably can perceive I did not grow up in a stable family environment, so, the " Mormons " family unity was extremely appealing to me.

I was Baptized and became a Mormon. It was at this time that I began to study the bible and the book of Mormon with more intent than a seminary student. I feel confident that my knowledge of the word of God, while it can always get better, is far better than most preachers. And I love it when I meet someone with more understanding than myself, as I thrive on learning.

After three years I became an Elder in the church and have even done some temple work. It was at this time in my life that I began to have a serious problem with the doctrine I was being taught.

You see I not only need absolute honesty, I demand it. I will not accept anything less, especially where my God is concerned. I have always thought, If God is real, and this is true then I darn sure do not want to get it wrong. Mormons believe that, as God is we shall become. Ok that sounds plausible given the concept of eternity. But it does not stop there, as we are God once was. Now hold the presses, you probably could convince me that given eternity I could be able to create universes, however, I simply can not accept that my God, any god for that matter, could ever have been as stupid as I.

After some time I lost faith in this and all religion, and set out to live my life as you so eloquently put it, " this is all we have..."

It was some 10yrs latter that my second wife insisted I go with her to a Baptist church. I told her that I would give it a chance but after she had to stop nagging me about it. You know I never had any intentions of accepting what was said.

Nevertheless, for the first time in my life I heard the word of God preached with power and could not dismiss this. Shortly thereafter I was again baptized and set out to live my life as a,"good Christian". It was not until after witnessing Christians doing some of the most despicable things to other Christians, and another very nasty divorce that I once again lost all faith in religion. But not God this time. I became one of those people who believed I did not need to go to Church to follow God. I would tell others about Jesus whenever I could and indeed led some to the Lord.

In the grand scheme of things I found myself back in Mississippi with a Christian friend and we started having church in my house. We led some more young adults to the Lord and for a time I thought myself to be a good Christian. But as people always do there own self interest crept in and began to quench my faith once more.

It was a friend of mine that began to ask me to go with his family to a, " revival ". He just would not stop, kept telling me how much it would help my faith grow. Of course I reminded him how that the scriptures tell us, " in the last days they will heap to them preachers, having itchy ears". In my believe only God could give a revival, and that would be more like the day of Pentecost than what we now call revival.

Once again I submitted to go only one time if that would shut him up.

A couple of years prior to this event I bought a King James 1611 study bible and one of the first verses that I underlined in red was Mathew 7:21-23 ," Not everyone that saith unto me Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven....22 many will say to me that day, Lord Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? 23. And I will tell them, I never knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity."

I put a red question mark above it because I could not understand how God could say such a thing to people who had done so much for him.

Well this, revival, preacher got up and like all baptist preachers started making a few jokes. I looked at my friend and scratched my ear, he new what I meant, but only smiled. Finally the preacher told us to open our bibles to Mathew 7: 21-23. The second my eyes looked at the red question mark I had made so many years before I seemed to have lost my hearing. That is to say I could not here another word the preacher spoke. That is because God himself started to speak to me.

I AM GOING TO SAY THOSE WORDS TO YOU.

YOU KNOW ALL ABOUT ME, INDEED YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT ME THAN THE PREACHER IN FRONT OF YOU NOW.

BUT YOU DON'T KNOW ME.

ALL YOU HAVE IS BOOK SMARTS,

ALL I WANT IS A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP.

IF YOU DON'T COME AT ME LIKE A CHILD TO HIS DADDY AND DEVELOP A RELATIONSHIP WITH ME THEN YOU LIE TO YOURSELF.

YOU WILL GO TO HELL.

I would love to tell you that I went down and got saved rite then, but that did not happen. Even after hearing the voice of God himself I just could not grasp that after 3 baptisms I was not saved.

After Church I went to my friends home for dinner. I relayed to him the experience that I had, seeking his advice. I conveyed to him that I just could not accept that I was not saved. All my friend would say to me is, do you want to go to the evening service early to talk with the preacher? I agreed to and what happened there is something that very few people here would admit to. But as I have stated before, I must have total honesty when it comes to my God, and that means here also.

I made up my mind, I was going to go over every sin that I knew I had committed and some that could only be a portability. I asked this preacher,

Can a Christian commit adultery? He said, Yes.

Can a Christian commit murder? Again, Yes [let me clarify here, if you get a woman pregnant and she gets an abortion, in my opinion you are guilty of murder.]

Can a Christian lie? Yes

Can a Christian steal? Yes

Can a Christian manipulate others with evil intent? Yes

I then stopped, thinking to myself two things. What other sins have I done that I do not know? And second I was thinking, wheew this morning must have been some kind of fluke.

It was then that this preacher sorta cocked his head in amazement and said to me, " but Scotty, a Christian who did those things would be so overwrought with guilt that they nearly could not live with their self. Then it happened, POWER the such as I have never felt before or since in my life hit me. Without control I began wailing, crying with such a guilt that I just wanted to die. Indeed if I would have had a gun at that moment I probably would have.

Then he asked me if I wanted to pray the prayer of deliverance with him? With tears streaming down my face, bawling like a 2year old I said NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT! this is between me and my God alone, then I cried out to God, " please save me Jesus, please save me from myself. I can not do this anymore, I don't know how to. Oh God I need you, I need you to make this real for me.

PLEASE SAVE ME FROM MYSELF "

Later that week I was baptized in the name of Jesus for the only time that mattered. I wish I could tell you that we have lived happily ever after, but that would be a lie.

What I can tell you is this, I am a rebel, a Bad Boy for Christ, if you will. And believe me if your truly saved by the grace of God, when you sin, you will feel GUILT! The Holy Spirit will eat you alive until you either repent or push him away.

But God has a plan and he ALWAYS gets what he wants. I have spent every day since June 18th 1998 at 6:30pm seeking the kingdom of heaven. Drawing nearer to God, and he is faithful. What will he do with me? Lets just say, What can God do with a person 100% committed to him? I pray I find out, but know I am not worthy. Let everything I do be in the name of Christ, for his glory. Because when your saved God never gives up.

We need to remember that He is in control at all times and that we can only ask what we can do for Him from this day forward.

I too have made mistakes and know the feeling of guilt now, but I also know the felling of helping your fellow man to follow our God.

Praise be to God.

[ZigsQuote]

J.F. ...........

Wow that's quite a testimony. That by the way is what Christians are biblically called to do by Christ - testify, give witness to what they have seen and experienced and that's it, to leave it there. The job of convicting and convincing belongs to the "holy spirit." Most Christians of course don't have the courage to do even that, if they even have a bonafied testimony. Most of the rest of them that do have a bonafied testimony based on a true "relationship" with Christ can't stop there. They think the "holy spirit" needs their help to get the prospect "saved" and into the "kingdom." A wild and crazy evangelist and former satanist high priest I met one time used to say, "If you write Jesus on the end of your finger and force it down peoples throat you're get get puked on.

OK, two quick points -

One - J.F. Your experience with the Mormon church sure jumped out at me. If you didn't catch it, in Post # 62 in this thread I made reference to the relationship I had with a few of those fine folks, and I mean that sincerely. But my understanding of their truly bizarre doctrine in light of who they are otherwise and how they can believe it was the straw that broke the camels back for me. It's what made me believe that if they can be that deluded, why can't we? My further study has convinced me that we can and are.

Two - And maybe this will be my last post on this thread unless someone attacks me and forces me to defend myself. By the way, I'll be the first to acknowledge that this thread should have probably been moved to OFF TOPIC Posts a long time ago.

Here's my parting words, in the immortal words of good old Willy Shakespeare, "To Thine Own Self Be True." GREAT ADVICE, IMHO.

If religion appeals to you and you feel you benefit from it, then by all means be true to that belief.

On the other hand, if unbelief, agnosticism, atheism, humanism, free thought, whatever makes much more sense to you, then be true to that as well.

Yes I know... "but it's a matter of life and death" for many of you. I was one of you. I no longer am.

"A man convinced against his will is a man unconvinced still."