Holidays ruined and tradition being lost..

[BrokeNoMore]

......have blood on our hands for those Americans in the past (Indian and Black Salves) that weren’t give equal rights that the Constitution now guarantees. I personally am trying to make amends for this by safe guarding minority rights from people that refuse to give up their preceived rights, because they think a majority rules. Sound familar?

I'm so impressed that it took you clear until post #49 to come up with this.

I am the last person who will ever say that what was done to the American Indian or American Slaves was right, regardless of the finer points of history. There is no way to make amends for that. They are ALL DEAD and it's a stupid point. No way to fix it.

"My gramma was treated bad and for that I'm going to kick and scream and demand a handout, or make somebody take down a traditional Christmas tree." How freaking liberal. Now I understand why Michael Savage equates liberalism with insanity. We have our very own Tiffany23 to make it clear. It is pure pure insanity to argue that current American have no rights because of how the original inhabitants of this land were treated.

I don't care if you're homosexual. I don't care if you're white. I don't care if you're liberal. I don't care if you're republican. I don't care how you kill my Thanksgiving turkey, and I don't care if you don't pray to my God. I do care when you start telling me that the Christmas tree that's been decorating the mall at Christmas time, where I've shopped since childhood offends somebody and so I can't have it anymore.

I'm going to have to stop posting for a while. I'm about to get out the F word, and Tiffany would enjoy that way too much. Trouble is, I don't think she actually believes her argument. I think she posts for entertainment value. She's far too intelligent to actually believe this bunk. She posts to rile things up, and fuels it to keep it going.

Tiff for as smart as you think are about history... I would seriously see if i could get a refund..

I agree...she obviously got one of those lovely expensive liberal university educations.

I wouldn't ask for a refund. I'd sue for damages. :lol:

[AZ Native]

Sorry, But I will NOT PAY FOR ANYTHING I DID NOT DO!

You may feel you owe a debt. I DO NOT!

I will not pay anyone for somthing I did not do.

You wan't the just due? Dig em up and demand it. I don't think you'll get a response, it's in the past. Bury it. It's over . Move on.

[skitealwedrop]

I want some perspective on my situation that occurred last night.. I work part time for a local charity that gives to a majority of immigrants and low income families... Here is what happened about a week ago we put up a Christmas tree in a big chain name store as we do every year and long with a giving tree for the elders and children.. Yesterday we get a call to came down and take the Christmas tree down because a single Muslim out of 200 plus employees felt offended.. This is the explanation we got.. As for the giving tree it was moved from the front of the store to a part of the mall that has no traffic..

I am from Minnesota with one of the highest Muslim population in the country if not second.. Half of your clientele are Muslims and come and use our facility to live or for groceries and also money for rent or bills that they fall behind on or vouchers for gas or work clothes to get started.. I know what i would do to make my point but, it's not possible.. It really left a sour taste in our staffs mouths and felt totally dismayed..

I truly had nothing to say that was positive or comforting to them.. I guess i just wanted to vent along with a possibility of thoughts or ideas... Thanks

I choose to not allow anyone to ruin my Christmas. The celebration is in the minds of myself and my family. We celebrate in our way and honor our Native American culture. That's how we roll.

[Tiffany23]

BrokeNoMore.....I'm sorry that I'm getting your blood pressure up. Really, that is not my intent. If you read over my postings, not once did I say that the Christmas tree should come down. In fact, I said that they should allow all beliefs to be celebrated. What I did ask is proof that this actually took part. That is ALL that I"m asking, because to me it seems that he is making up something that he knows will get people upset. Which, I think it has, right?

Renee, the point of bringing up the past is because the argument was made that our forefathers thought this way (Christianity) and since they were first, so that make it right. I showed that this isn't necessarily true. That is all that part was about.

Just for the record, I have voted Republican every year since I became eligible. I actually campaigned for John McCain, who my father personally knows and who I"ve meant several times when I was a Dept of Defense intern and often went up to the "Hill".

Furthermore, I'm a strong believer in the First Amendment. While the second Amendment I'm pro for owning firearms, but I'd prefer to lock them down like the Canadians do when not in use, so that they can't be used for crimes or against women. Renee (Bama) and I have politely agreed to disagree on this. Right now when it comes to immigration, I like what I'm hearing from Newt, that if people have been here for 25 yrs and have jobs and families, they should be able to remain. I'm pro choice and pro death penalty. I believe in a strong defense, the chance of attending a good school and affordable healthcare. I do not believe in social security as a retirement plan..it should be insurance for those that lose a breadwinner. Individuals should rely on savings and matching programs of their employers for their retirements. I hate social programs like welfare. If people can't find a job then we should put them to work picking up trash, or helping be caregivers for our elderly. Anyway, the point is, I certainly don't see myself as a liberal, I see myself as an American that cares about other Americans.

And I am the world's worst speller.

[armondtoth]

I want some perspective on my situation that occurred last night.. I work part time for a local charity that gives to a majority of immigrants and low income families... Here is what happened about a week ago we put up a Christmas tree in a big chain name store as we do every year and long with a giving tree for the elders and children.. Yesterday we get a call to came down and take the Christmas tree down because a single Muslim out of 200 plus employees felt offended.. This is the explanation we got.. As for the giving tree it was moved from the front of the store to a part of the mall that has no traffic..

I am from Minnesota with one of the highest Muslim population in the country if not second.. Half of your clientele are Muslims and come and use our facility to live or for groceries and also money for rent or bills that they fall behind on or vouchers for gas or work clothes to get started.. I know what i would do to make my point but, it's not possible.. It really left a sour taste in our staffs mouths and felt totally dismayed..

I truly had nothing to say that was positive or comforting to them.. I guess i just wanted to vent along with a possibility of thoughts or ideas... Thanks

Welcome to America, where we help pay your bills cause you don't have enough money to pay for it. Oh and by the way the Baby Backs are in Isle 9

[Unitedrich]

Talk about a melting pot,

With my blond hair (at least it was until I was in my mid 40's) and blue eyes, I am so proud of my great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather (believe me I did the ancestry and math who was 100% Iroquois, and who helped the colonists obtain independence as a nation fighting alongside those who where seeking independence from imperialism as it was known at the time. This is the greatest country in the world bar-none, and unfortunately, there are those elements that live outside our culture that seek to undermine it, so it is prudent that we salvage and replicate the efforts of our forefathers so that their efforts for us and our children are not in vain

[trooper]

Just for the record, I have voted Republican every year since I became eligible. I actually campaigned for John McCain, who my father personally knows and who I"ve meant several times when I was a Dept of Defense intern and often went up to the "Hill".

Do you have a link to your life... Life experiences don't come with links.. How asinine does that sound to you.. It was something that happened to me that i have no control of because i am not a member of the Board... Like i said i do this part time with no pay only volunteer during Holidays and Donation drives and drop offs or decorations or where ever they want me...

My point was it's pretty disgusting to have someone to criticize the things we do when we are the people who you ask for when you need help.. The expression don't bite the hand that feeds you comes to mind...

[skitealwedrop]

Talk about a melting pot,

With my blond hair (at least it was until I was in my mid 40's) and blue eyes, I am so proud of my great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather (believe me I did the ancestry and math who was 100% Iroquois, and who helped the colonists obtain independence as a nation fighting alongside those who where seeking independence from imperialism as it was known at the time. This is the greatest country in the world bar-none, and unfortunately, there are those elements that live outside our culture that seek to undermine it, so it is prudent that we salvage and replicate the efforts of our forefathers so that their efforts for us and our children are not in vain

Thanks for your post. I'm a native though I do not appear to be. My hair is brown and my eyes are blue. My DNA has evolved over time. I'm grateful for my origin each day. I wish to bring Native Americans to the forefront in our society in a kind way.

Ski

[Photochic]

Unfortunately, (in my view) you have just experienced the shortcomings of the 21st century with all its political correctness in tow. How pathetic!

No traditions or family values seem to be acceptable. (Well, that depends, on which side of the fence you’re on and it seems to me that I’m on the wrong side of the fence according to them)

This Land of the Free and home of the Brave seems to have been tossed in the back of the closet. Never, if they have their way, to be seen in the light of day again.

Everyone needs to wake up before it’s all gone, or the values and traditions of so many will be just stories handed down in families.

In spite of all that I hope you had a good Thanksgiving and will have a Merry Christmas.

Sorry if I said something somebody doesn’t like, BUT I’m not political correct. I’m an AMERICAN citizen.

AND DON'T EVER CHANGE! I'M THERE WITH YOU.

[Francie26]

Ok, let's see if I get this straight. I'm accused of stirring the pot. Hmmm…a person puts up a post which borders on a hate crime*(see below)...stereotyping and repeating items that he KNOWS will get this Conservative Christian Crowd up in arms against Muslims...and when I simply ask for evidence...it is I that gets accused of string the pot? Hmmm...I'm sure there is some logic in there but unfortunately my "sheltered' mind can't quiet grasp it. By the way, I've been accurse of some things in my day, but sheltered isn't one of them.

Next, I get the if you don't love America, then leave it. Ok, I think you mean, if I don't agree with the majority, then leave it. Seems there was once a man that made a speech and in that speech he said the Truth shall set us free. Truth is not what the majority agrees that it is. If that WAS the way of America, then we would still have black people doing our house chores.

Then there is the speech about the forefathers of America spoke English and were Christians...so you should be too. Well, that's not true. America was settled by the Native American hundreds of years before the English settlers arrived. Believe me, they didn’t speak English and their “Great Spirit” was much different than Christ. He loved his people, but he also loved the land. The real first American were force to give up their languages and force to live on reservations by guess who? Come on...it's an easy answer...the MAJORITY...and that majority just happen to be White Christians.

And OBTW those same English settlers LEFT England due to Religious prosecution.

Then we have the good ole melting pot, which..I agree there is some validity to that…that the more we get to know each other, the more we understand and can relate. But, keep in mind, all theose nationalities that were listed like Irish, Polish, Chinese…it usually took them 2 generations to fully integrate with the American lifestyle. In all the major cities, and many of the smaller towns, you had the different ethic areas such as little Italy, China town etc. The point is, it takes a while for these different nationality to learn to accept their new ways.

As far as Missouri, got me there….you win on that one!

*in crime and law, hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group, usually defined by racial group, religion, sexual orientation, disability, class, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, social status or political affiliation.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime

You personally target those of us who are white by claiming that we are doing damage to others or that our ancestors have done so. You could point to any human being and say truthfully that his/her ancestors probably did something bad to another person, or that his/her ancestors were treated badly by others back when they were alive. And in both instances, you would probably be right. However, I am frankly very tired of the old "You are evil because of what your ancestors did 16-18 generations or so ago." Most of us do the best we can to live an honorable life, and speaking for myself, I feel absolutely no guilt or trauma for what someone else ever did in the past, does currently, or will ever do in the future. If I chose to do it, I could instantly load up on all the guilt I could carry for a lifetime based solely on the things my mother blamed me for during my childhood. haha But probably any of us could do that. My point is that it is kinder and gentler to attempt to lift guilt from others instead of rightously attempting to dump more on them, especially when it is useless guilt, achieving nothing. But if you want to try, give it you best shot, Tiffany. I see where you disclaim that you are trying to get someone's blood pressure up, but that is exactly what you have attempted to do. And it serves no purpose but to allow you to take over what was a concerned conversation with one of us who had endured an anti-Christmas, anti-Christian onslaught of another offended Muslim in our country.

You also personally target those of us who are Christian, by claiming that one of our most important religious figures, one we believe is Holy, was nothing more than a confused teenager who tried to lie her way out of an unwed pregnancy by claiming that a spirit had gotten her pregnant. And you did that in the most repugnant language you could find. If you could only find something as beautiful and from such antiquity to believe, perhaps you would understand how offensive your words were to us. But when all you can claim to believe is nothing, nada, zilch, zero, the "Big Aught," then it must be difficult for you to grasp the holiness, beauty, innocence, and power that we see in the Virgin Mary. I have to agree, much damage has been done in the name of religion through the centuries, but that was less-than-perfect man's fault, not those of us who are believers, and it does not take away from the power and majesty, and sheer goodness of Mary, Jesus, and God, Himself. Those figures were always perfection and goodness itself, no matter what Man did to them throughout time, and no matter what Tiffany tried to do to one of them today.

Thank God I win on the Missouri thing, but of course, I knew that.

I'm sure someone once said, "The truth shall set you free," but the constitution also sets all Americans free. That means, Tiffiny, that we have the right of free speech, of assembly, of religion, etc., and if all you have in your back pocket is to whine about being offended by our civil liberties, then you are on dangerous ground. For if ours are torn apart and cast asunder so easily, then who's to say yours aren't next. True liberty, Tiffany, is a sacred, but precarious thing, always subject to destruction by those who think they have a better idea. True liberty isn't won or kept by denying others of their liberty, but rather, by supporting the liberties of all people until you make choices that would deprive others of theirs. You can't build a path to further freedom by shoving other people off into the briars. And that's what you, people like you, and the ACLU try to do. Make people feel collective guilt for what other people did several gnerations and centuries ago. Make people feel guilty because they worship something, and you don't. Make people give up what they hold most dear, faith, family, community, and love for neighbors, and give in to the screaming of people who have little or no fatih or whose faith demands that they destroy the faith of others. . . . Among others. Indeed, there is a whole list of things that are being held up as being far more right than a simple belief in a God who loves all of us. We who are Christians have been taught to turn the other cheek, and we have done that to the point where it has become obscene. But God never told us to give in to evil. So it's time for us to take a stance and fight back.

I think we are about ready to do this, so I suggest you stand back, Tiffany. Stop dangerously stepping into our path because we are on the march now, and our turn has come.

[kliklok00]

At no time in history (as far as I know) have two or more people lived together without at least one of them getting offended at some point. If 200 people want a tree and one person doesn't, the easy fix is to offend the one and not offend the 200. Get over it. It is only a tree...and the thrust of the program was to HELP THE NEEDY and actually had nothing to do with a tree. Sheesh! Majority rules...and let us pray the majority is a fair, just ruler who has a compassionate heart.

[tandy]

I would replace the Christmas tree, place the star of David above the store and buy a pig and tie it to the front door.

Actually the pig was already there, that was the one that used their "authority" to move the tree...If they had any substance to their character they would have told the 1 that the majority ruled and if they didn't like it they could haul their butt somewhere they would get their throat cut for disagreeing with their culture, belief or religion...Stand up people, let us not go down like a bunch of sidewalk sissies saying...oh my goodness, we must not offend others ...BS!!!!!

[trooper]

I'm sorry I am on the I phone and accidentally give you a negative.. Can some one even her out.. Thank you for your post and everyone else who posted... TrIals and tribulation is what what made this country great..

I'm sorry I am on the I phone and accidentally give you a negative.. Can some one even her out.. Thank you for your post and everyone else who posted... TrIals and tribulation is what what made this country great..

[Tiffany23]

"You personally target those of us who are white by claiming that we are doing damage to others or that our ancestors have done so. You could point to any human being and say truthfully that his/her ancestors probably did something bad to another person, or that his/her ancestors were treated badly by others back when they were alive. And in both instances, you would probably be right."

OK, so far you say I'm right. No discussion needed.

However, I am frankly very tired of the old "You are evil because of what your ancestors did 16-18 generations or so ago."

Technically according to this website, a generation is about 25 years, so 16 generations would be 400 years ago. I'd say half that for slavery, and the 1880s are I think when most the wrongs were done against Native Americans, so that would be about say 5 generations. And to the time that Blacks had pretty much equal status the 1960s, that would be about 2 generations. But continue..

Most of us do the best we can to live an honorable life, and speaking for myself, I feel absolutely no guilt or trauma for what someone else ever did in the past, does currently, or will ever do in the future. If I chose to do it, I could instantly load up on all the guilt I could carry for a lifetime based solely on the things my mother blamed me for during my childhood. haha But probably any of us could do that. My point is that it is kinder and gentler to attempt to lift guilt from others instead of rightously attempting to dump more on them, especially when it is useless guilt, achieving nothing. But if you want to try, give it you best shot, Tiffany. I see where you disclaim that you are trying to get someone's blood pressure up, but that is exactly what you have attempted to do. And it serves no purpose but to allow you to take over what was a concerned conversation with one of us who had endured an anti-Christmas, anti-Christian onslaught of another offended Muslim in our country.

Again pls point to any place during this debate when I said take down the Christmas tree or scene? You can't because I didn't and you wished I would have because then you could paint me as Anti-Christian. Instead, I said ALL holidays should be honored. So pls don't have me do the time unless I do the crime. Personally, if truth be know, I think Islam is even more backwoods than Christianity. But personally, I don't care if you believe in the flying spaghetti monster and his meatball son. What I do care about is that you respect other beliefs by giving them equal time. The original poster is inciting a riot...I don't think what he said happen happened. He could shut me up by giving proof, but he declines to do it.

You also personally target those of us who are Christian, by claiming that one of our most important religious figures, one we believe is Holy, was nothing more than a confused teenager who tried to lie her way out of an unwed pregnancy by claiming that a spirit had gotten her pregnant. And you did that in the most repugnant language you could find. If you could only find something as beautiful and from such antiquity to believe, perhaps you would understand how offensive your words were to us.

Oh brother, I mean really, you can't seriously believe I meant to insult the immaculate conception, I said it was creative writing...and that I stoled it from somewhere. and I made it so far fetched that you would have to be a zealous to think I meant it.

But when all you can claim to believe is nothing, nada, zilch, zero, the "Big Aught," then it must be difficult for you to grasp the holiness, beauty, innocence, and power that we see in the Virgin Mary. I have to agree, much damage has been done in the name of religion through the centuries, but that was less-than-perfect man's fault, not those of us who are believers, and it does not take away from the power and majesty, and sheer goodness of Mary, Jesus, and God, Himself. Those figures were always perfection and goodness itself, no matter what Man did to them throughout time, and no matter what Tiffany tried to do to one of them today.

Thank God I win on the Missouri thing, but of course, I knew that.

Yes, you won that one fair and square, and please forgive me for any insult I may have construed on the Great State that gave us Harry Truman that quoted:

There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know.

And my personal favorite that I think fits this scenario perfectly:

I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell.

I'm sure someone once said, "The truth shall set you free," but the constitution also sets all Americans free. That means, Tiffiny, that we have the right of free speech, of assembly, of religion, etc., and if all you have in your back pocket is to whine about being offended by our civil liberties, then you are on dangerous ground. For if ours are torn apart and cast asunder so easily, then who's to say yours aren't next. True liberty, Tiffany, is a sacred, but precarious thing, always subject to destruction by those who think they have a better idea.

I take this as some kind of threat? That if the majority, who I'm thinking we both agree is the White Christian and male, falls from grace then we are all doomed. Well according to this website, by 2042, Whites will no longer be a majority. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/15/population.race

That's 30 years way. And here I thought the world was suppose to end in 2012.

True liberty isn't won or kept by denying others of their liberty, but rather, by supporting the liberties of all people until you make choices that would deprive others of theirs.

OMG....this is so full of hypocrisy that I'm surprised you aren't struck by lighten. It is you madam that is denying others from their liberties...if you can't see that, then pls God pls, make 2042 come tomorrow.

You can't build a path to further freedom by shoving other people off into the briars. And that's what you, people like you, and the ACLU try to do. Make people feel collective guilt for what other people did several gnerations and centuries ago. Make people feel guilty because they worship something, and you don't. Make people give up what they hold most dear, faith, family, community, and love for neighbors, and give in to the screaming of people who have little or no fatih or whose faith demands that they destroy the faith of others. . . . Among others. Indeed, there is a whole list of things that are being held up as being far more right than a simple belief in a God who loves all of us. We who are Christians have been taught to turn the other cheek, and we have done that to the point where it has become obscene. But God never told us to give in to evil. So it's time for us to take a stance and fight back.

I think we are about ready to do this, so I suggest you stand back, Tiffany. Stop dangerously stepping into our path because we are on the march now, and our turn has come.

Now that I've answer just about every paragraph, because Lord knows last time I didn't you claimed I didn't have facts to back it up, let me ask you a very simple question. If Jesus was here today. Who's side would he pick? Yours or mine. Would he want others to have the same rights that you had (i.e. Muslims) or would he take your side and say, nope it is my way or nothing. I think the Prince of Peace would be "Man" enough to try and work things out. That's the whole concept of Christianity. To love one another and to accept one another. Am I right or am I right?

[bamagirl]

Tiff, when all is said and done it is gonna be His way or none... right now you can still choose but one day it will be too late. The bible tells us to love our enemies but we don't have to accept their ways, we are suppose to turn from what we know to be wrong.

[trooper]

I would quote what you have said but it's really redundant...Get over yourself ... So far we have had Iroquois and an anonymous native American and yet you need to point our inaccuracy in the Constitution and religion... We have Black, white , Native, Polish. Jewish, Armenians,German, French, Spanish, Asian, Russian, you name it and you as the person you are hating America.. Life ,Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.. who really are the Hate Monger...

A little back ground of myself, A German decent who grew up speaking German as a kid along with my family.. We had 2 choices speaka English when you needed help or went t o the store or go home empty handed.. All about chasing the American dream..

I see your still on the kick of slavery and inequality.. Let me remind you that there is still slavery in the other countries till this day... The gold and diamonds you wear come from African slaves mining the jewelry you wear...

The Native Americans i know would definitely tell u where to go.. Their are the most proud full, ambitious go getters i know and are not mopping around the past..

Really I'm getting tired of your narrow minded 3rd grade history lessons and your third rate Atheist lessons along 1800 century philosophies... On every rebuttal is the same if not some regurgitated one liner from some liberal...

Thanks

Edited November 26, 2011 by trooper

[BradyBear]

Ok little girl, since you want to use this:

"*in crime and law, hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group, usually defined by racial group, religion, sexual orientation, disability, class, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, social status or political affiliation.[1]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Hate_crime

Read more:

Look in the mirror, because you are the kettle calling the pot black!

[trooper]

Ok little girl, since you want to use this:

"*in crime and law, hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group, usually defined by racial group, religion, sexual orientation, disability, class, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, social status or political affiliation.[1]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Hate_crime

Read more:

Look in the mirror, because you are the kettle calling the pot black!

Plus one to you but I have ran out...

[Francie26]

"You personally target those of us who are white by claiming that we are doing damage to others or that our ancestors have done so. You could point to any human being and say truthfully that his/her ancestors probably did something bad to another person, or that his/her ancestors were treated badly by others back when they were alive. And in both instances, you would probably be right."

OK, so far you say I'm right. No discussion needed.

However, I am frankly very tired of the old "You are evil because of what your ancestors did 16-18 generations or so ago."

Technically according to this website, a generation is about 25 years, so 16 generations would be 400 years ago. I'd say half that for slavery, and the 1880s are I think when most the wrongs were done against Native Americans, so that would be about say 5 generations. And to the time that Blacks had pretty much equal status the 1960s, that would be about 2 generations. But continue..

Most of us do the best we can to live an honorable life, and speaking for myself, I feel absolutely no guilt or trauma for what someone else ever did in the past, does currently, or will ever do in the future. If I chose to do it, I could instantly load up on all the guilt I could carry for a lifetime based solely on the things my mother blamed me for during my childhood. haha But probably any of us could do that. My point is that it is kinder and gentler to attempt to lift guilt from others instead of rightously attempting to dump more on them, especially when it is useless guilt, achieving nothing. But if you want to try, give it you best shot, Tiffany. I see where you disclaim that you are trying to get someone's blood pressure up, but that is exactly what you have attempted to do. And it serves no purpose but to allow you to take over what was a concerned conversation with one of us who had endured an anti-Christmas, anti-Christian onslaught of another offended Muslim in our country.

Again pls point to any place during this debate when I said take down the Christmas tree or scene? You can't because I didn't and you wished I would have because then you could paint me as Anti-Christian. Instead, I said ALL holidays should be honored. So pls don't have me do the time unless I do the crime. Personally, if truth be know, I think Islam is even more backwoods than Christianity. But personally, I don't care if you believe in the flying spaghetti monster and his meatball son. What I do care about is that you respect other beliefs by giving them equal time. The original poster is inciting a riot...I don't think what he said happen happened. He could shut me up by giving proof, but he declines to do it.

You also personally target those of us who are Christian, by claiming that one of our most important religious figures, one we believe is Holy, was nothing more than a confused teenager who tried to lie her way out of an unwed pregnancy by claiming that a spirit had gotten her pregnant. And you did that in the most repugnant language you could find. If you could only find something as beautiful and from such antiquity to believe, perhaps you would understand how offensive your words were to us.

Oh brother, I mean really, you can't seriously believe I meant to insult the immaculate conception, I said it was creative writing...and that I stoled it from somewhere. and I made it so far fetched that you would have to be a zealous to think I meant it.

But when all you can claim to believe is nothing, nada, zilch, zero, the "Big Aught," then it must be difficult for you to grasp the holiness, beauty, innocence, and power that we see in the Virgin Mary. I have to agree, much damage has been done in the name of religion through the centuries, but that was less-than-perfect man's fault, not those of us who are believers, and it does not take away from the power and majesty, and sheer goodness of Mary, Jesus, and God, Himself. Those figures were always perfection and goodness itself, no matter what Man did to them throughout time, and no matter what Tiffany tried to do to one of them today.

Thank God I win on the Missouri thing, but of course, I knew that.

Yes, you won that one fair and square, and please forgive me for any insult I may have construed on the Great State that gave us Harry Truman that quoted:

There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know.

And my personal favorite that I think fits this scenario perfectly:

I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell.

I'm sure someone once said, "The truth shall set you free," but the constitution also sets all Americans free. That means, Tiffiny, that we have the right of free speech, of assembly, of religion, etc., and if all you have in your back pocket is to whine about being offended by our civil liberties, then you are on dangerous ground. For if ours are torn apart and cast asunder so easily, then who's to say yours aren't next. True liberty, Tiffany, is a sacred, but precarious thing, always subject to destruction by those who think they have a better idea.

I take this as some kind of threat? That if the majority, who I'm thinking we both agree is the White Christian and male, falls from grace then we are all doomed. Well according to this website, by 2042, Whites will no longer be a majority. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/15/population.race

That's 30 years way. And here I thought the world was suppose to end in 2012.

True liberty isn't won or kept by denying others of their liberty, but rather, by supporting the liberties of all people until you make choices that would deprive others of theirs.

OMG....this is so full of hypocrisy that I'm surprised you aren't struck by lighten. It is you madam that is denying others from their liberties...if you can't see that, then pls God pls, make 2042 come tomorrow.

You can't build a path to further freedom by shoving other people off into the briars. And that's what you, people like you, and the ACLU try to do. Make people feel collective guilt for what other people did several gnerations and centuries ago. Make people feel guilty because they worship something, and you don't. Make people give up what they hold most dear, faith, family, community, and love for neighbors, and give in to the screaming of people who have little or no fatih or whose faith demands that they destroy the faith of others. . . . Among others. Indeed, there is a whole list of things that are being held up as being far more right than a simple belief in a God who loves all of us. We who are Christians have been taught to turn the other cheek, and we have done that to the point where it has become obscene. But God never told us to give in to evil. So it's time for us to take a stance and fight back.

I think we are about ready to do this, so I suggest you stand back, Tiffany. Stop dangerously stepping into our path because we are on the march now, and our turn has come.

Now that I've answer just about every paragraph, because Lord knows last time I didn't you claimed I didn't have facts to back it up, let me ask you a very simple question. If Jesus was here today. Who's side would he pick? Yours or mine. Would he want others to have the same rights that you had (i.e. Muslims) or would he take your side and say, nope it is my way or nothing. I think the Prince of Peace would be "Man" enough to try and work things out. That's the whole concept of Christianity. To love one another and to accept one another. Am I right or am I right?

haha If Jesus were here today, the last thing He would do is to spend time negotiating with you to work out a way that Christians could be denied their rights to worship Him. Negotiating away our rights would not be on His agenda. What would be on His agenda would be to stop your foolishness while you still had time to save your soul.

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Where in any of Tiff's responses on this thread did she say she was denying how you, as a Christian, worship? If you read, truly read what she wrote, she is saying that ALL beliefs should be honored. You continue to want to paint her as Anti-Christian, but there is no bullet in that gun.

And having read a bit of the Good Book myself, I'm sure Jesus would smother others will love and affection, that is HIS way.

I propose we just drop this discussion here. On another thread, she offered the olive branch, I suggest that it be accepted.