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WHY are we still here?


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Hi Hame55,

I'm not trying to "push" the LOP/RD "agenda" at all. Obviously I would like nothing more than to see a $3.00 straight RV. I've merely been trying hard for the past 3 years to analyze all of the available data and come to a rational, defendable conclusion. The one I've "reached" is clearly not the one I "like." I've argued that the word "Lop" is inappropriate, and is used by the gurus and pumpers to make it sound like the RD is a bad thing. The truth is that overall it is a good thing, and is value-neutral. It results in no loss in value to the IQD, and makes their financial system far simpler and more practical. Further, it instantly brings the Dinar to near parity with the U.S. Dollar - approximately 86 Cents. It's not good for "us" but it's definitely good for Iraq.

I'm fairly certain that the Dinar held by the CBI is not used to pay off international debts. That's a function of the GOI and their specific budget constraints. There is no evidence that any of us have seen that the U.S. Government or any other holds large quantities of Dinars. It seems unlikely based on the published information we "have" seen, despite the repeated claims of the gurus and pumpers. Oil is still purchased in U.S. Dollars, and seems unlikely to change in the near future.

My statement that the Dinar hasn't RV'd in all these years despite thousands of erroneous posts to the contrary had nothing at all to do with whether it will or will not eventually RV. It was merely an indication of the reliability and truthfulness of the pumpers and gurus. My opinion as to the RD is based on readily available and easily analyzed published data of the CBI, GOI and the IMF. I sincerely believe that it is highly unlikely that these figures are fraudulent. The numbers clearly demonstrate that the monetary supply of Iraq has in fact "increased" every year, rather than decreased as many would like us to believe. The current figures show as much as 30 Trillion Dinars in circulation.

I believe that your percentage figures are inaccurate, but regardless of the math, the increases we're hoping for are unheard of in terms of historical RV's. What a government "needs" to operate has nothing to do with its ability to RV its currency. As I said before, if that were the case, the U.S. could simply RV the Dollar and eliminate our 14 Trillion Dollar deficit with the stroke of a pen, as would every country in the world. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. You need to go back and read the many posts made by myself, JMW, Dalite, Keep, and many others which explain the numbers in great detail. There are some really great, well-researched posts in the archives.

The hundreds of articles are what they are. Either they're accurate, or they're lies. Dalite addressed that issue thoroughly and eloquently in a post above. Translation is undoubtedly an issue, but regardless, what they state is by now fairly clear. You either believe them, or you don't. Personally, I find no reason to believe that they're lying. Only time will tell.

Finally, I know of no evidence demonstrating that the war in Iraq is to be repaid. If you have any, we'd all like to see it. Oil certainly isn't going to do it. They currently produce only 2.5 million bpd - 10% of what the U.S. produces. In 10 years, they "hope" to be producing 10 million bpd. That will never pay for a Trillion Dollar war, even if ALL of it were to go toward that effort, and that will never happen.

Hi Legolas

Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. You make very good points, some of which I have been worried about for months, concerning RD. If there are that many trillions in circulation, I cannot see an RV first. They would have to RD first. The question seems to be, are the numbers true? And would they not have RD'd already if it is value-neutral and would help them save inflation liabilities? Why all the fuss and years of wrangling with each other about an RD?

And the politics point toward and RV, given the elements in power, the bankers, IMF, Kuwait (I know, not "official RV" but it sure as hell went back up) as well as the sheer logic - all that wealth was lost, and the GOI has the power, once the pieces are in place (whatever those really are...) to bring back that wealth lost in war and sanctions.

Simple question: Why not a reinstatement after nine years? Why, exactly, is that out of the question? (Apologies to Jimi Hendrix)

Go RV!! :D

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My thoughts…

Do I honestly think my Dinar will magically turn into millions of US dollars, no, but it MIGHT be possible.

What is MORE likely, if you read what the CBI (Central Bank of Iraq) actually say in their news releases is that they will delete three zeros, issue new currency for the new denomination, set the revalue rate, then increase the value over time. They also say they plan to do this before the end of two years, so could be next week, could be next year. Why do people think it will revalue before Jan 1? This starts Iraq’s fiscal year and they have to have all laws and such in place before then in order to revalue the currency. I personally think that there is far too much to overcome and far too many reasons to wait until next year to revalue the currency, especially when considering the fact that many people that own Dinars have owned them for many years waiting for this magical million dollar payday.

If the CBI does what they say they will do, the way they say they will do it, then here’s what it would mean to us….

Say you invested $1200 for $1,000,000 Dinar.

Then the delete three zeros, you now have $1,000 Dinars AND now must trade in what you had to claim the new denominations.

Then they revalue.

Say they revalue at $1.20 per Dinar, well, then you break even, but anything less and you lose money, anything more, you gain money.

Either way, millions are not in your future.

Say they decided to set the miracle valuation of $10 per Dinar, great, your 1,000 Dinar is now worth $10,000, you made $8,800 profit, still no millions.

Given that there are some 50 billion plus Dinars floating world-wide, IF they were to simply revalue at $1 per Dinar without deleting the three zeros and issuing the resulting new currency, then there would suddenly be 50 TRILLION dollars’ worth of Dinars in the world, more than ALL the world’s currency combined. Seems unlikely. So…Deleting the zeros is a MUST first to reduce the likely balloon effect, then the revalue to stabilize the currency, THEN perhaps increase the value of a few years. Still no millions. The ONLY way millions is even remotely likely is if they decide to stay with the current currency and revalue at a MUCH lower rate, say 10 cents, then you may have a shot at something, but still the issue of 50 billion Dinar suddenly becoming 500 billion dollars, plausible, possible, but I’m not so sure. This all amounts to a wait-and-see attitude with hope that the miracle will happen, but know that profit is likely, eventually. Still want to buy Dinar? I hold some Dinar, I hold hope that miracles do happen, but am grounded in reality and expect that I could fall somewhere between losing some money (if they revalue at, say, 80 cents) and gaining a small profit (if they reinstate to pre-war rate of $3) – assuming my reading of all this is correct. I may be totally wrong, who knows, but IF I am, then I’ll be looking forward to my millions, since my reading of this IS the down side!

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WOW Perfectly stated. I am not sure if I trust the figures on the amounts which are still in circulation but we can not be sure of anything definitively with this. We have to march on.

Yet, the GURU's and BSers and FALSE INTEL... I just wrote asking Adam to please let us know if there is a way to list those who pump etc. I just want to protect those who dont know better. The people who are more educated from time etc, should have a way to protect the newbie.

I applaud your post. Very well written and I am 99% agreement.

PEACE and a + for you too....

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WOW Perfectly stated. I am not sure if I trust the figures on the amounts which are still in circulation but we can not be sure of anything definitively with this. We have to march on.

Yet, the GURU's and BSers and FALSE INTEL... I just wrote asking Adam to please let us know if there is a way to list those who pump etc. I just want to protect those who dont know better. The people who are more educated from time etc, should have a way to protect the newbie.

I applaud your post. Very well written and I am 99% agreement.

PEACE and a + for you too....

I applaud your efforts, imgesing. I think the problem with what you propose is that there is no real way to tell if someone is pumping or not. If I told you that I HEARD that the rate would come out at ohhhhhh I dunno, a rediculous rate such as 8.47, as long as it is placed in the rumors section, that's all it is. Am I pumping or did I actually hear this, and believe it myself? Hard to say.

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Hi Legolas

Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. You make very good points, some of which I have been worried about for months, concerning RD. If there are that many trillions in circulation, I cannot see an RV first. They would have to RD first. The question seems to be, are the numbers true? And would they not have RD'd already if it is value-neutral and would help them save inflation liabilities? Why all the fuss and years of wrangling with each other about an RD?

And the politics point toward and RV, given the elements in power, the bankers, IMF, Kuwait (I know, not "official RV" but it sure as hell went back up) as well as the sheer logic - all that wealth was lost, and the GOI has the power, once the pieces are in place (whatever those really are...) to bring back that wealth lost in war and sanctions.

Simple question: Why not a reinstatement after nine years? Why, exactly, is that out of the question? (Apologies to Jimi Hendrix)

Go RV!! :D

Hi Hame. You pretty much answered the question yourself. It's all about the numbers. IF in fact there are still 25-30 TRILLION Dinars in circulation, and they RV at $1.00, those Dinars ultimately become $25-30 TRILLION DOLLARS - obviously impossible. If they RD first, those same Dinars become 25 BILLION - a much more realistic number, and comparable to many other countries. They could then conceivably RV to nearly any amount they desire.

As far as the politics go, Shabibi "appears" to favor the RD scenario, and Maliki appears to be opposed to ANY change. At any rate, the CBI has the authority to RV or RD the currency independently, BUT their Parliament has to approve the printing of a new currency. Hence, an apparent stalemate is possible. In view of the fact that the GOI does NOTHING quickly, it's difficult to know with any degree of certainty when, or if they will ever make a decision and act upon it. So we wait and wonder. :unsure:

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As per a response to the Original Posting of this Blog.....(WHY are we still here? A detailed explanation which may satisfy some....or maybe not)

Some are here for their 2nd RV...the 1st one being the returns that they've already had from being in this long term...as in dinars being held long term, Warka Accounts with high interest, and ISX holdings that have went up dramatically....some will sell out, some will keep buying, but for the long termers...they'll just keep holding and waiting for the icing on the cake...hopefully a bigger movement than the double to quadruple gains that have been made for up to appx. the last 8 years...cause this party aint over yet...and if it keeps profiting like it already has until the grand finale'...what's the worries?...If it has done this good while it was bad over there, what's it gonna do as it get's good?...We will surely see wont we?...lol....

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WOW Perfectly stated. I am not sure if I trust the figures on the amounts which are still in circulation but we can not be sure of anything definitively with this. We have to march on.

Yet, the GURU's and BSers and FALSE INTEL... I just wrote asking Adam to please let us know if there is a way to list those who pump etc. I just want to protect those who dont know better. The people who are more educated from time etc, should have a way to protect the newbie.

I applaud your post. Very well written and I am 99% agreement.

PEACE and a + for you too....

Thanks, Imgesing. "Guessing" is pretty much all we can do at this point, but looking at the totality of the available evidence, I feel pretty comfortable with my current position, and have yet to see a rational opposing opinion supported by any verifiable evidence. If it exists, I, as much or more than anyone would very much like to have my opinion changed, as would most. Our site members seem to do a pretty good job of calling out the pumpers in virtually every post. It'd be nice to see a list of the "worst" offenders posted, but let's be honest.....the rumors are responsible for driving site traffic on nearly every Dinar site, and as with the Dinar, it's all about the numbers. ;)

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Yeah Hang in there Okie and his men or intel crew are filled with all kinds of special things for us everyday. they must get a kick out of fooling themselves. :rolleyes: To be honest i can't wait till an RV because then we won't have to be slammed with all of garbage they post.

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I hate to hear the pumpers or the dumpers...spew their trash...but I'm not selling out...no matter how much negativity is put out, from whoever has lied, from whoever has pumped, or whoever has dumped or played the dumper role as well...as the dumper guru's that have recently emerged, IMO, are just as crafty now at getting people to sell, as the pumpers were at getting us to buy...and if they can clip you going both ways..by your buying it and then selling it back...they mopped up...as the spread either way is massive...It does seem that much of the pumping has been reversed though here lately....I have to admit, these jokers have caught me off guard a few times myself....the pumpers and dumpers...but I keep focusing on the long term of this thing...THAT IS THE FACTS...that no one can rob me of, or that neither of these types of guru's can distort my thinking on...so if some of us have done well in the past wih this, while Iraq was being torn apart....and now it is stabilizing and trillions have been spent stabilizing it and developments are being put in place like never before on the planet....why worry about the future...and it aint over yet...so, with what some of us have done while it was bad, and not seen what could happen as it get's good...what's the hooplah of what might not happen...no one that I know of has lost anything yet anyway..unless they bought and sold back some dinars too soon...It's like some are getting the cart before the horse...and if people are so worried about me and the others investments..show us something better...and let's all get on over to it and start studying it...of course no one has offered me anything yet to even look at...I guess those that have those great type investments are not on here, they are studying them instead of this....lol....

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On another note, why has the dinar been stuck at 1170 to 1 since the begginning of the real progress starting in Iraq in appx. 2008, and on up until now...almost 3 years of progress with the country, but no more progress with the currency...so the currency actually rose from appx. 2003 to 2008 while it was bad in Iraq....but now with progress...nothing!...are they hiding something?...And many are fretting over what can't happen...lol....

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I think dhardage answered the question about as well as it can be, and I suspect that his astute reply applies to nearly all of the members of virtually every Dinar website. Those of us who jumped in several years ago did so at a time when there wasn't nearly as much "legitimate" and well documented information available as there is today. Most of us acted quickly, convinced by people whom we trusted that the Dinar revaluation was "imminent" - a word we've learned to hate. We were afraid that there wasn't sufficient time to do the research that logic should have dictated was prudent. Personally, I was fairly certain that the prospect of turning $1,000 into $3 MILLION Dollars overnight was a long shot far exceeding the odds of winning the lottery. But the people I was listening to were intelligent, experienced investors, and I figured that THEY must have done some extensive research before getting involved, and time to make a decision "appeared" to be very limited. As it turns out, their information was coming from the Dinar Websites - the gurus and pumpers who have successfully assisted in selling hundreds of billions, if not trillions of Dinars over the past 5+ years. Lesson learned.

Needless to say, the RV never happened as we were promised more than 3 years ago. Nor has it happened virtually every month, week, and day since, despite thousands of posts from the same and new gurus and pumpers who have appeared on the scene. For the record, to those who are convinced that those of us who no longer believe in the prospect of becoming overnight millionaires are here with ulterior motives, I personally hold nearly 30 MILLION DINARS, all purchased within a very short period of time, when I became reasonably certain that I might be able to help a fairly large number of people whom I cared about were this long shot to come in. I knew it was very likely way too good to be true, but the risk vs. reward thought process won out. I was cinfident that I could afford to lose 40% of the investment if it came to that, and "I had a dream" - like most of us. I told absolutely no one about the investment. I figured that anyone who needed to know would benefit if and when it happened, and if it didn't, no one was going to think I was a complete idiot, or be mad at me for costing them 40% or more of their invested money. As it turns out, it appears that was a wise decision. I've told you the amount I invested only to demonstrate my sincerity in believing what I now do, and to refute the endless bashing of those who insist that we have no "skin" in this game. I would strongly recommend that you tell NO ONE of your investment, let alone the amount.

A year or so after investing, it became very apparent that the gurus and pumpers were lying thru their teeth, to put it mildly. As I did more and more of my own research, it quickly became clear that the numbers weren't adding up to the possibility of a significant revaluation of the IQD. Unlike virtually every other country with a currency value closer to being on par with the U.S. Dollar, Iraq had at least 25-30 TRILLION Dinars in circulation when all others were in the BILLIONS. It was obvious that Iraq HAD to reduce those numbers from Trillions to Billions before a revaluation was possible. A $1 RV would immediately turn those 30 Trillion Dinars into $30 TRILLION DOLLARS - more money than likely currently exists in circulation worldwide. THEN the RD articles started appearing, and it became instantly clear how they could accomplish that feat. Simply remove three zeros from the currency, and the 25 TRILLION in circulation instantly becomes 25 BILLION, and they're back on a level playing field, with the ability to increase in value to the equivalent of $1 U.S. Dollar or even above if they desired. It made perfect sense - to everyone EXCEPT those who are so desperate to believe the pumpers and gurus........convinced that they will become multi-millionaires in return for their tiny $1,000 investment. Worse yet, many believe that $1 Million isn't enough.....they want $3 Million, or more. That from a war-torn third world country with very little electricity, water, education, or a functioning, legitimate government. Go RV! It will fix EVERYTHING.......Except it won't. There's no need to go into greater detail regarding the RD here - it's been "extremely" and repeatedly well explained by many here on this forum.

Despite overwhelming financial statistics from the CBI, IMF and other sources, as well as hundreds of articles stating Iraq's intention to RD.....even specifically comparing the event to other countries who have done the same thing, the pumpers, gurus and diehard RV believers constantly bash those of us who have come to the conclusion that the RD of the IQD is the most likely scenario. Despite numerous requests from myself and others, those bashers and LOPster coining individuals virtually NEVER provide ANY legitimate evidence to support their insistence that the IQD will RV prior to re-denominating. They simply insist that it WILL. Nothing like pure faith to justify attacking logic and reason, right? Obviously, I more than most have reason to hope that I'm wrong. Even a revaluation to 10 CENTS would be incredible. I just can't find any real evidence to support that possibility. A small RV "might" be within the realm of possibility, but I sure wish SOMEBODY would present reputable evidence to demonstrate how and why it would happen. Somehow that evidence never comes.

Those of us who no longer drink the pumper Kool Aid are still hopeful that they will simultaneously increase the value to at least the equivalent of $1 U.S. Dollar, and perhaps more. If it goes to $2-$3, some of us might even make a small profit. THAT is the reason we're still here.....to follow the news and watch for any signs of improvement within Iraq or clues to the timeframe from the CBI. Given what the dealers have charged over and above the current value of the IQD, (at least 20% to now as much as 40%) the increase would have to be fairly significant. But we can hope.

But alas, little has happened so far to give us real hope that we are close to a final conclusion of this endless ride. Still no completed government; still no HCL; Still no Strategic Council (in fact Allawi may now have bailed); Still under Chapter 7 Sanctions; Still no settlement of the Kuwait files; and Still bombs exploding in the streets. Of course, we COULD ignore the real news and listen to Oakie and his dozens of Merry Men & Women, delusional and certain that the RV will occur tomorrow.

By profession I'm an investigator. I can tell you with certainty that a large majority, if not all of the gurus and pumpers haven't been working tirelessly over the past 5 years out of the goodness of their hearts to bring us this "extremely valuable and top secret, highly reliable INTEL." There is always a motive, and nearly always some type of personal benefit - usually money. Someone bashed me a couple of days ago for "slandering" Oakie in another thread. That person clearly had no knowledge of the law. First of all, these pumpers are anonymous, (for obvious reasons) and as such have no standing under the law for protection of any kind. Second, these individuals "by choice" have become very public internet figures, and therefor, even if known, would have no expectation of protection. Third, "truth" is an absolute defense to charges of slander, and these websites are virtually overflowing with evidence that these people have lied repeatedly and often for a very lengthy period of time. A person can be wrong once or twice and have a reasonable expectation that people would believe it to be coincidence, but after dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of times, it's abundantly clear that they're well aware of their record of reliability. Fourth, after hundreds, and even thousands of lies, and/or errors, costing many people thousands of dollars, and in some cases much more, slander should be the LEAST of their worries. And finally, the written word would come under the definition of Libel, not Slander. Before bashing someone for stating the truth and attempting to protect innocent people from the likes of these internet predators, SOME of these people who repeatedly criticize those of us who have given a great deal of time and effort in an attempt to keep this long ride REAL should do some research before they shoot from the hip, lest their intelligence AND motives be questioned. I hope this has provided some perspective to those who question the WHY of the many of us who have unfortunately been forced to change our original opinions. Yet we continue to hope and read. With Iraq, it's very difficult to be absolutely certain of anything. :unsure:

Finally someone to expose what these sites are all about. People making money off the hopeful masses. Just maybe the light will shine on all those who are ripping people off.

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