Is God Really Moral??

jonjon · June 22, 2012

Hey Neo...your argument is spot on...the Bible backs you up, but I can tell you from experience that those who "believe" have one thing in common---they ignore parts of Scripture that they cannot (or will not) understand. I find it so odd that people who believe in God (of the Bible) continually take up for Him and refuse to give Him credit for evil---yet, His very words in the Bible say He created everything. He also claims His love is "unconditional." Excuse me---if I choose to not love Him, I'm condemned for an eternity---how is that unconditional?

I could go on forever! My point is, Neo, I agree with most all you say but again, from experience, you cannot "reason" with those who blindly believe the Bible is true...

Klik,

I agree with the heart of your statement. I think that people whom concern themselves with who God condemns do more damage to his reputation than they do good. The scribes and Pharisees were scolded for their condemnations.

We can't see until we can see and we can't hear until we can hear.

I am grateful that it's not mans judgment that matters.

Markinsa · June 22, 2012

There is a time for all of those things. Who are we to question God's will? God is above everything including your definition of morality. We are only human and have not even a fraction of God's understanding and his grand plan. In the end nothing really matters anyway. This is only our earthly existence.

By the way, the bible was written by man. I'm sure God does not agree with most of it IMHO.

2 Timothy 3:15-17

New Living Translation (NLT)

¹⁵You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus. ¹⁶All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. ¹⁷God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

-

I have to admit that I am with Neo on this one. At least 85% of what I read (on this site as well as others) is about God's Wrath. Not his love, or forgiveness. I do not consider myself an Atheist, but I would prefer to take my chances, than to live in fear that one mistake on my part (no matter how minor) will condemn me to hell for eternity. God's love is COMPLETELY conditional, and I won't condone that by worshipping it.

You're going to the wrong websites! The only condition for salvation is belief in Jesus Christ and a repentence of sin. If you truly have a change of heart, and turn from your sinful ways, you will be saved. You no longer have to worry about that one mistake you mentioned. :twothumbs: Jesus's Blood is like the Lamb's Blood over the Doorposts at the first passover in Egypt when God took Egypt's first born. His Blood covers our sins, and we escape the judgement we deserve. This is a gift, there is nothing you can do to earn it.

-

NEODinar · June 22, 2012

Before I provide my input, I have to say I for one appreciate the effort and stance you are making. Not sure if you will have any great success but the intellectual stimulus that you are pushing the believers to impart with is noteworthy. Just be leery and don't let anger replace that intellectual prowess that you have. Most of these people are good people and enjoy a bit of honest probing. It’s when the closed minded ones show up and start spewing “my way or you will burn” dogma that this type of debate rapidly loses its intellectual appeal. With that said, I first would first like to embark on the bigger question, that is: Is man basically good or evil? I've come to the conclusion that man is basically lazy and self-promoting. He (not she mind you) will for the most part, take the easy way out and almost always ask the question (even if it is subconsciously): what’s in it for me?. Of course you do have the two tails of the bell shape curve, the sociopaths and the saints, but most of us, just go with the crowd and not clean up our dog’s poop when no one is looking. <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> Not sure if you know, but for 4 years to put myself thru college, I was a waitress at various “gentlemen clubs” in both the US and Canada. I normally worked the day shifts, so I got to meet the more refine Gents. And yes, lawyers, doctors, successful businessmen and elected officials often frequent these establishments. And to pass the time, and of course to potentially increase my tips, I would engage them in intellectual debates such as this. One question I’d ask, is there something that you have personally done that if it was known, it would land you in jail? My estimate is about 97% of the hundreds of customers asked, said, “absolutely”. Now again, these were not shady characters, these were so called pillars of the community (yes, I know they were at a stripclub but they were always well behaved and to my knowledge never solicited the dancers). So then I’d ask, what keeps you from doing whatever that was, all the time. And almost to a person, the answer was the chance at getting caught. Now saying that, I also have dated several “minorities” and in these “worlds” that white people are normally not aware of, the world revolves around the chance of getting caught. Risk and reward play heavily. So it seems to me, that society at large basically will stay in line IF they think that they will get caught. And religion, by its very nature is the ultimate Guy in the Sky watching you. I have of course, simplified and summarized this view because basically I’m lazy and to expand further isn’t worth my time. As in a split second, others will either find merit in my words or roll their eyes and think whatever. So I’ll stop here.

"Before I provide my input, I have to say I for one appreciate the effort and stance you are making. Not sure if you will have any great success but the intellectual stimulus that you are pushing the believers to impart with is noteworthy. Just be leery and don't let anger replace that intellectual prowess that you have. Most of these people are good people and enjoy a bit of honest probing. It’s when the closed minded ones show up and start spewing “my way or you will burn” dogma that this type of debate rapidly loses its intellectual appeal."

- Thanks, just throwing in a different perspective, agreed most here, believers and non believers seem to be good people, the ones that simply throw stones I don't take seriously I just try and keep it light and keep it moving.

"With that said, I first would first like to embark on the bigger question, that is: Is man basically good or evil?"

"I've come to the conclusion that man is basically lazy and self-promoting. He (not she mind you) will for the most part, take the easy way out and almost always ask the question (even if it is subconsciously): what’s in it for me?. Of course you do have the two tails of the bell shape curve, the sociopaths and the saints, but most of us, just go with the crowd and not clean up our dog’s poop when no one is looking."

- As cynical as that sounds, I have to agree except why the emphasis on "he" and not "she"? Are you implying women do not possess such traits? i personally think it's a mixed bag, and it seems that there are 3 types of people, sociopaths and those with extreme social disorders whose brains are simply wired incorrectly rendering them unable to view ethics and morality in a way the majority would. Then you have the "saints" Those that supersede what most of us wish to morally aspire to be. Think Mr. Rogers, Lol! Not that i knew him personally but if there's a heaven i think that man went first class. Then you have the rest of us that fall somewhere in between, neither psychos nor saints. We are social animals and just like our ape cousins we can be very deterministic and opportunistic. It's in our nature as primates to be self promoting, aggressive, petty, conniving, selfish, adherent, etc. Although these traits can be negative and for the most part are, exceptions excluded. I feel these traits extend to most human beings in a minor way. For instance it's not uncommon for people to as you said not pick up after their dog, or tell white lies, ask what's in it for me etc. But these are minor transgressions for the most part imo and don't necessarily equate to what most people would consider "evil", so I can't really use these common animalistic traits as support to claim that man is basically evil. The fact that for the most part human beings generally socially get along and respect each other globally is evidence imo that humans are innately good unless psychological factors and or external environmental factors interfere.

"And yes, lawyers, doctors, successful businessmen and elected officials often frequent these establishments. And to pass the time, and of course to potentially increase my tips, I would engage them in intellectual debates such as this." T

- lol, yeah gentleman's clubs always seem to transcend social class barriers don't they? Can't knock your hustle in the least Black Swan, question is, if you knew your tips wouldn't increase would you still engage in conversation? Or was your initial thought the "what's in it for me" thought?

"Now saying that, I also have dated several “minorities” and in these “worlds” that white people are normally not aware of, the world revolves around the chance of getting caught. Risk and reward play heavily."

- Perhaps it's a cultural difference but I am failing to understand what you're getting at here. What does dating a "minority" have to do with risk/reward and chance taking? Are interracial relationships risky in New Zealand or something of that nature?

"So it seems to me, that society at large basically will stay in line IF they think that they will get caught. And religion, by its very nature is the ultimate Guy in the Sky watching you."

- Well again, I have to disagree, the statistics simply don't support this theory my friend. Forgiveness and redemption give believers a loop hole to basically do as they wish without fear of punishment from god, most believers don't use this loop hole, but as the stats show certainly the majority of the worlds criminals must. On the other hand, faith can cause people to commit crimes so you have to factor in all the crimes committed in the name of religion. I think that religion could disappear tomorrow, and crime would either stay the same or drop. Of course Jmo, but this is also evidenced by the ratio of belief and crime rates amongst different countries. As I mentioned, new zealand has an incredibly high rate of non believers, yet their crime rate is drastically lower than the U.S. If faith was a crime deterrent wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that countries with the least faith would have the highest crime rates? The fact that the opposite is true certainly implies at least to me that the ultimate guy in the sky real has no dramatic effect on crime. Good talks Black Swan.

Quote wouldn't it simply make more sense for god to just destroy satan. If he is "all powerful", why not just eradicate satan and evil all together?? End Quote I have been wondering about that myslf a few times......I'm sure someone more expert than myself on the subject will come up with an answer.

There really is no logical answer to this one it seems. I'm stumped as well on this one my friend. Just seems like it would be so much easier for an all knowing god to simply create everything correctly in the first place. Makes no sense.

sad but true, every time you reject God, he confirms it for you and hardens your heart.

Well opinions vary my friend. take care

bamagirl · June 22, 2012

NEO you are always saying 'your God' like He is only certain people's God... well He is your God too and He loves you as much as He loves me or any other believer, you just choose not to accept His love... I pray one day you will seek Him and He will reveal Himself to you... with love my friend.

NEODinar · June 22, 2012

God does not promote, God did however set forth certain laws for the people to live by. Punishment for disobedience he did condone. It was for breaking the Law God set forth that punishment was to be carried out. If God set forth the Law then God could set forth the punishment. God did give us a great gift, the gift to choose for ourselves. With this gift he gave us the OLD TESTAMENT. We are to use this not to live by (NEW TESTAMENT NOW) but to study to not repeat the mistakes constantly repeated by Judah. God is very clear in how he would prefer for us to live and act, however choosing not does have consequences. Life in general has consequences. If you choose to steal if caught you face consequences. The good thing about God is that he offers forgiveness.

"God does not promote, God did however set forth certain laws for the people to live by."

- Just semantics on my part, excuse me, condone.

"Punishment for disobedience he did condone. It was for breaking the Law God set forth that punishment was to be carried out. If God set forth the Law then God could set forth the punishment."

- I hear you, so then do you think for instance the murders of all those innocent women during the with hunts were justified?

"We are to use this not to live by (NEW TESTAMENT NOW) but to study to not repeat the mistakes constantly repeated by Judah."

-Really? The seven deadly sins are in the first testament, do you not adhere to those? Many christians do. Even within the new test jesus condones slavery and in fact has specific instructions regarding the handling and payment of slaves. Do you then condone slavery yourself? I'm guessing not.

"The good thing about God is that he offers forgiveness."

- Except after you die right? The forgiveness option apparently has an expiration date huh? One can apparently be a terrible person their entire life, then on their death bed simply get forgiven and all is well. Meanwhile one could be a great person and not except jesus and not receive the option of forgiveness after death. Doesn't make sense that god would punish good people and bless horrible people who simply say "forgive me" at the last minute. Just seems pretty immoral imo.

Hey Neo...your argument is spot on...the Bible backs you up, but I can tell you from experience that those who "believe" have one thing in common---they ignore parts of Scripture that they cannot (or will not) understand. I find it so odd that people who believe in God (of the Bible) continually take up for Him and refuse to give Him credit for evil---yet, His very words in the Bible say He created everything. He also claims His love is "unconditional." Excuse me---if I choose to not love Him, I'm condemned for an eternity---how is that unconditional? I could go on forever! My point is, Neo, I agree with most all you say but again, from experience, you cannot "reason" with those who blindly believe the Bible is true...

Agreed my friend, it completely boggles my mind, yet I find their beliefs and the reasons they lay out for them utterly fascinating.

There is a time for all of those things. Who are we to question God's will? God is above everything including your definition of morality. We are only human and have not even a fraction of God's understanding and his grand plan. In the end nothing really matters anyway. This is only our earthly existence. By the way, the bible was written by man. I'm sure God does not agree with most of it IMHO.

If in the end nothing matters, why have faith to begin with?

NEODinar · June 22, 2012

NEO you are always saying 'your God' like He is only certain people's God... well He is your God too and He loves you as much as He loves me or any other believer, you just choose not to accept His love... I pray one day you will seek Him and He will reveal Himself to you... with love my friend.

"NEO you are always saying 'your God' like He is only certain people's God.."

- Bama, I don't believe in god so it makes no sense for me to state he's my god. Think of this way, you are an atheist in regards to every other god except the christian god so would it be reasonable for a muslim to claim that Allah is your god simply because they believe Allah is the "one true god"? Of course not.

"well He is your God too and He loves you as much as He loves me or any other believer, you just choose not to accept His love…"

- If god's love is so potent, why is it conditional? If I may, do yo have children? If so, is your love for them conditional or unconditional?

"I pray one day you will seek Him and He will reveal Himself to you... with love my friend. "

- And I hope one day you will be able to free your mind my friend. Take care

ATHIM · June 22, 2012

NEODinar - Ever squashed a bug?

The God of the Old Testament was purifying a group of people, the Israelites for a Holy work. Murder as was not condoned, but sanctioned for specific purpose in the Old Testament. that being, to cleanse His chosen race of Godless people in the same way as a vine dresser prunes the unproductive branches of a vine for the coming harvest. Can the branch that is cut off rebuke the vinedresser for his work? People of faith have always been the extension of God and sometimes it involved a cleanup. It did though have to fall in line with the first directive. SALVATION and righteosness.

When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost it all changed, in that Jesus who was the fulfillment of the law, brought the law into each mans heart so that men could be accountable directly to God and not to written law. I pretty much remember the "Thou shall not kill" deal, but there were certain abominable sins and peoples that required that the cleansing be permanent. I.e. we are the bugs! How do you think the Father felt about His Son's murder on the cross? It makes Him equally unhappy when another of His children is put to death. God died willingly upon the cross to transform death into life, and out of extreme humility, show us what real love is and to what extent God will go to save His people.

Is a war moral and ethical?

Sometimes for the greater good, one has to carry out the unwanted. War is moral when society condones it as such. Sometimes the motives are righteous, sometimes they are not. With God though, His motives are always for a righteous purpose, i.e. our return to relationship with Him. God is the God of life and death and eternity is much longer than our life span and each of us will die at the appointed time not by our choice but by the vinedressers will. So to answer your question.................. by human measure it seems that God allowed immoral, unethical and godless atcs, but in the larger scheme of things, prior to the incarnation, it was as neccessary as building a road before you can drive on it, and the road that was built was the highway to heaven.

PS

I was joking about Elvis. AND, man it would be easier to have these discussions face to face....

Edited June 22, 2012 by ATHIM

Heavyduty053 · June 22, 2012

By reading some of these posts it is clear that most of you have a misunderstanding of the christian principles. God can't reveal himself to a non repentent heart that is hardened toward anything with God's name on it. Choosing what and how you believe is each persons priviledge. Some are afraid that they will have to give up the corrupt, bad things that they need in their lives to make them happy. Some believe there is no life after this one and they are correct because they live outside of God's wishes so this life is all they have but for christian believers we feel in our hearts what Jesus has promised his children. These feelings will never be understood, just misunderstood by an outsider to the christian faith. Some actually start a topic like this because they are closer than they think to realization of the truth and they are seeking answers to within themselves through others opinions of the subject. Most can't even fathom what a prayer is and why we talk to someone who is not present or why we say we have faith in a non existant person. Some label God is an immoral, killing, slavery permitting person who lived thousands of years ago, maybe. From the creation of adam and eve, man has become disobediant and harmful. This is sin and this term is another thing some doesn't understand. But the truth is there is a little thing inside some that hunger to know the unknown because it bothers them. Some are closer to learning the truth than they care to admit and until then we must pray for them. I will say this to all who confess the christian faith, JUST REMEMBER WHERE AND WHAT YOU WAS BEFORE YOU FOUND GOD. I will end with this.......it is man and always has been man that has tryed to put himself above god with his infinite self thinking and has driven the world to the point of colaspe. Now God very plainly said that after so many times of trying to get us to see the error of our ways he will leave us unto ourselves and he will back away and that is slowly what is happening this very moment. Everything that was right has become wrong and everything that was wrong will become right, well folks its here. LINK::look in the bible you will find there where it has been for some two thousand years.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Heavyduty053

bamagirl · June 22, 2012

@HeavyDuty... I never said God would just reveal Himself to someone that pushes Him away, I said I pray NEO will seek the Lord so that He will reveal Himself.... with love my friend.

bamagirl · June 22, 2012

@NEO... yes I have four children and yes I love them unconditionally, more than I ever thought possible to love another human... I have to teach them right from wrong and teach them there are consequences to all their actions, much like God does for us with the bible... If my children don't learn the right things there are consequences for them here on earth as well as the afterlife... No matter how much I love them if per say one day they took someones lifes they would probably get life or the death penalty, my love couldn't change the consequences of their actions no matter how I would wish different.... Same with God, He gives us our guidelines and if we choose wrong no matter how much He loves us we will suffer the consequences no matter how much He wants different.. He wants us with Him for eternity, it's up to us....

Heavyduty053 · June 22, 2012

@HeavyDuty... I never said God would just reveal Himself to someone that pushes Him away, I said I pray NEO will seek the Lord so that He will reveal Himself.... with love my friend.

Bama i wasn't speaking out against any one individual, maybe is phrased something wrong what i was saying is some and i only mean some people never take the time to see if god is real or not therefore they can't grasp the meanings he has for them. With love to you to dear.

learning all i can · June 22, 2012

Heavy, I'm not trying to correct you but I disagree with some of the things you wrote!!! Please know that i am a reformed believer and all that I speak can be found in the KJV reformation Bible

By reading some of these posts it is clear that most of you have a misunderstanding of the christian principles. God can't reveal himself to a non repentent heart that is hardened toward anything with God's name on it. Choosing what and how you believe is each persons npriviledge. 1st of all, God is sovereign. God has chosen to reveal himself to us, otherwise, none would ever come to faith. None, naught, zero would ever "choose" God or come to believe in Christ if it were not for God revealing or for the "calling" of His Holy Spirit. We are the dead in our trespasses. How does a dead person choose anything without the quickening of the Holy Spirit? We are saved only by the act of God's mercy and grace, by His Spirits calling. Then and only then, can we make a choice or use the so-called "priveledge" of free will that you speak of. I didn't find God, he has never been lost! I was lost, dead but made alive by Christ and His sacrifice on the Cross. Some are afraid that they will have to give up the corrupt, bad things that they need in their lives to make them happy. Some believe there is no life after this one and they are correct because they live outside of God's wishes so this life is all they have but for christian believers we feel in our hearts what Jesus has promised his children. These feelings will never be understood, just misunderstood by an outsider to the christian faith. There is life for the believer as well as the non-believer after death. You youself have spoke of this many times in other post so I feel you may have just erred in your writing here, but for the sake of the readers, this needs to be correted. Heaven: Revelation 21:1-22:5...Heaven is protrayed as life for the believer or the righteous in Christ as "Perfect fellowship with God. Perfect protection and provision for eternity. HELL: is usually understood as the final abode for the unrighteous( unbelievers) dead andungodly that will suffer eternal punishment and absence of God. God word teaches this as literal not figurative....Isa:66:24, Matt. 25:40, Mark9:44-48 and Rev.14:11 Some actually start a topic like this because they are closer than they think to realization of the truth and they are seeking answers to within themselves through others opinions of the subject. Most can't even fathom what a prayer is and why we talk to someone who is not present or why we say we have faith in a non existant person. Some label God is an immoral, killing, slavery permitting person who lived thousands of years ago, maybe. From the creation of adam and eve, man has become disobediant and harmful. This is sin and this term is another thing some doesn't understand. But the truth is there is a little thing inside some that hunger to know the unknown because it bothers them. This little thing you speak of is the Spirit of God. His Holy Spirit bearing witness to our spirit . "Calling", "knocking", and even if I may use the term "Wooing" us to make the decision to follow Christ. Here again, without God's grace and mercy and CALLING, we would never make this decision, we would never have this "hunger" that you speak of as the Bible tells us we are dead, we are the walking dead. How can we make the decision to come to Christ without His 1st "calling us to Himself. Some are closer to learning the truth than they care to admit and until then we must pray for them. I will say this to all who confess the christian faith, JUST REMEMBER WHERE AND WHAT YOU WAS BEFORE YOU FOUND GOD. I will end with this.......it is man and always has been man that has tryed to put himself above god with his infinite self thinking and has driven the world to the point of colaspe. Now God very plainly said that after so many times of trying to get us to see the error of our ways he will leave us unto ourselves and he will back away and that is slowly what is happening this very moment. Everything that was right has become wrong and everything that was wrong will become right, well folks its here. LINK::look in the bible you will find there where it has been for some two thousand years.

thankyou for your time....barb

Sonnet · June 22, 2012

NEO . . . what in the world has happened to you to harden your heart toward God? You must have suffered great losses! It is very simple . . . God is a JUST God and His justice will come, one way or the other! It is either when we repent and the price has been paid by the Cross or His judgment will come! Simple!

Just because you do not choose Him, does not mean that you will not be judged by Him. You will! Right now, you are walking around with every sin that you have ever committed on your back! It is HEAVY!!! But those of us that have accepted Him . . . we are free! The words that you speak just find a rocky, hard spot in us and can not take root . . . they are not words of life and we do not take them on. You see, you bring them forth to stir up strive but it just brings all of us together . . . even to pray for you. Because you oppose yourself, I pray that "God will grant you repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, that you can recover yourself from the snare of the devil, who has taken you captive at his will." II Timothy 2:25, 26

God gets a bad rap so many times for things that He does not do! If a person allows all kinds of horrible things in their home and then horrible things result, such as abuse, mistreatment, murder, etc. how is that God's fault? " For me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15 You choose yourself and you reap yourself.

Be not deceived ; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap. Galations 6:7

At any rate, we have no animosity toward you . . . because you see, we pray that God will send us the captives, the brokenhearted, the sick . . . so here you are and we are here to reveal the Father to you!

bamagirl · June 22, 2012

NEO . . . what in the world has happened to you to harden your heart toward God? You must have suffered great losses! It is very simple . . . God is a JUST God and His justice will come, one way or the other! It is either when we repent and the price has been paid by the Cross or His judgment will come! Simple!

Just because you do not choose Him, does not mean that you will not be judged by Him. You will! Right now, you are walking around with every sin that you have ever committed on your back! It is HEAVY!!! But those of us that have accepted Him . . . we are free! The words that you speak just find a rocky, hard spot in us and can not take root . . . they are not words of life and we do not take them on. You see, you bring them forth to stir up strive but it just brings all of us together . . . even to pray for you. Because you oppose yourself, I pray that "God will grant you repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, that you can recover yourself from the snare of the devil, who has taken you captive at his will." II Timothy 2:25, 26

God gets a bad rap so many times for things that He does not do. If a person allows all kinds of horrible things in their home and then horrible things result, such as abuse, mistreatment, murder, etc. how is that God's fault? " For me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15 You choose yourself and you reap yourself.

Be not deceived ; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap. Galations 6:7

At any rate, we have no animosity toward you . . . because you see, we pray that God will send us the captives, the brokenhearted, the sick . . . so here you are and we are here to reveal the Father to you!

Awesome Sonnet!

learning all i can · June 22, 2012

Sonnet, you have planted God's seed in a beautiful manner. Your passion and love for the non-believers certainly shines. I pray, as I grow in the love of Christ, that I may also have this patience and passion for others that our LORD has blessed you with.....I would wish that you would allow me to also claim your words and hope that you have given neo and all non-believers, as I know this is pleasing in His eyes.

God bless....barb

Sonnet · June 22, 2012

Bless you, Learning All I Can . . . and also, BamaGirl . . . it is encouraging! We are mighty soldiers in the Kingdom of our God!

Markinsa · June 22, 2012

Time on Earth = x

Eternity = ---->

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Heavyduty053 · June 22, 2012

Heavy, I'm not trying to correct you but I disagree with some of the things you wrote!!! Please know that i am a reformed believer and all that I speak can be found in the KJV reformation Bible

barb, its ok to question one another and i take no offense at all. From what you wrote you kinda paralled what i said. Man with a hardened heart cannot find God or should say will not find him until he himself does a little changing, not so much in habits but in spirit. Thats not to say he will never find him. We were all sinners absent from the spirit of god before we found him. But as i think back something or someone made something click either by what they said or something they done that made the inside of me to want to see what the other side was like. Remember how pharoah was toward moses, his heart was so hardened he never seen or wanted to see what moses was talking about even after the plaques. There is no one in this country that does not know what a church is and what is taught inside. Example: if i am going down the road and pass by this church it is my choice to stop, go in and learn or pass it on by. Now the holy spirit does try to woo us but free will of choice is stronger sometimes which we control ourselves. Again not signaling anyone out for any reason just relaying my thoughts to all......By the way, i haven't heard from you in a long time, good to see your still kicking.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Heavyduty053

NEODinar · June 22, 2012

NEODinar - Ever squashed a bug? The God of the Old Testament was purifying a group of people, the Israelites for a Holy work. Murder as was not condoned, but sanctioned for specific purpose in the Old Testament. that being, to cleanse His chosen race of Godless people in the same way as a vine dresser prunes the unproductive branches of a vine for the coming harvest. Can the branch that is cut off rebuke the vinedresser for his work? People of faith have always been the extension of God and sometimes it involved a cleanup. It did though have to fall in line with the first directive. SALVATION and righteosness. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost it all changed, in that Jesus who was the fulfillment of the law, brought the law into each mans heart so that men could be accountable directly to God and not to written law. I pretty much remember the "Thou shall not kill" deal, but there were certain abominable sins and peoples that required that the cleansing be permanent. I.e. we are the bugs! How do you think the Father felt about His Son's murder on the cross? It makes Him equally unhappy when another of His children is put to death. God died willingly upon the cross to transform death into life, and out of extreme humility, show us what real love is and to what extent God will go to save His people. Is a war moral and ethical? Sometimes for the greater good, one has to carry out the unwanted. War is moral when society condones it as such. Sometimes the motives are righteous, sometimes they are not. With God though, His motives are always for a righteous purpose, i.e. our return to relationship with Him. God is the God of life and death and eternity is much longer than our life span and each of us will die at the appointed time not by our choice but by the vinedressers will. So to answer your question.................. by human measure it seems that God allowed immoral, unethical and godless atcs, but in the larger scheme of things, prior to the incarnation, it was as neccessary as building a road before you can drive on it, and the road that was built was the highway to heaven. PS I was joking about Elvis. AND, man it would be easier to have these discussions face to face....

So your god was just "purifying the godless" ? well Let me then ask you my friend what do you consider to be " godless"? Branching further, what was it about the people that god executed that made them "godless"? There was another man who believed in ethnic cleansing as well. His name was hitler.. Now I'm sure you, like most logical thinking decent human beings would consider hitler monstrous and completely immoral. With all respect to you my friend, what is the difference between hitler and your god when it comes to "cleansing"? What is righteous about burning innocent women and children alive, enslaving your fellow man, genocide and ethnic cleansing and rape, what could possibly be "righteous" about any of this ATHIM?

"Is a war moral and ethical?"

- Imo, sometimes, but it's completley dependent on the circumstances.

"Sometimes for the greater good, one has to carry out the unwanted."

- Agreed

"War is moral when society condones it as such."

- Well simply because a society condones war, doesn't necessarily mean it's a moral war. Look at the war on Iraq, imo, that was an immoral war, however it was backed by our society. Well at least our politicians lol!

"Sometimes the motives are righteous, sometimes they are not."

- Agreed

"With God though, His motives are always for a righteous purpose, i.e. our return to relationship with Him."

- I disagree. There is nothing righteous imo, about condoning evil acts.

"by human measure it seems that God allowed immoral, unethical and godless atcs, but in the larger scheme of things, prior to the incarnation, it was as neccessary as building a road before you can drive on it, and the road that was built was the highway to heaven."

- The nazi's made similar excuses for their evil acts as well. To them the extermination or "cleansing" of the jews was necessary for what they believed was the greater good. God does the same but you are unable to apply the same logic you would to a human dictator to your celestial dictator.

"PS I was joking about Elvis."

- I got ya, how can anyone not like Elvis right?

"man it would be easier to have these discussions face to face"

- If this thing ever RV's, beers are on me, would love to chop it up face to face.

@NEO... yes I have four children and yes I love them unconditionally, more than I ever thought possible to love another human... I have to teach them right from wrong and teach them there are consequences to all their actions, much like God does for us with the bible... If my children don't learn the right things there are consequences for them here on earth as well as the afterlife... No matter how much I love them if per say one day they took someones lifes they would probably get life or the death penalty, my love couldn't change the consequences of their actions no matter how I would wish different.... Same with God, He gives us our guidelines and if we choose wrong no matter how much He loves us we will suffer the consequences no matter how much He wants different.. He wants us with Him for eternity, it's up to us....

"No matter how much I love them if per say one day they took someones lifes they would probably get life or the death penalty, my love couldn't change the consequences of their actions no matter how I would wish different."

Ok, so now hypothetically, if your children killed someone, would you personally be able to kill your children for that crime. You mention prison and the DP, but could you personally carry out the sentencing? Now I ask if you love your children unconditionally and yet you had the power to burn them forever, would you burn your children if they chose not to believe in your god? I know that your god would, but I am asking you as an unconditionally loving parent. Would you burn your own kids for simply not having faith, even though they could be the greatest children on earth? They didn't commit any crimes against humanity they simply exercised their "free will" and used their logic. could you personally condemn them for this?

NEODinar · June 22, 2012

NEO . . . what in the world has happened to you to harden your heart toward God? You must have suffered great losses! It is very simple . . . God is a JUST God and His justice will come, one way or the other! It is either when we repent and the price has been paid by the Cross or His judgment will come! Simple! Just because you do not choose Him, does not mean that you will not be judged by Him. You will! Right now, you are walking around with every sin that you have ever committed on your back! It is HEAVY!!! But those of us that have accepted Him . . . we are free! The words that you speak just find a rocky, hard spot in us and can not take root . . . they are not words of life and we do not take them on. You see, you bring them forth to stir up strive but it just brings all of us together . . . even to pray for you. Because you oppose yourself, I pray that "God will grant you repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, that you can recover yourself from the snare of the devil, who has taken you captive at his will." II Timothy 2:25, 26 God gets a bad rap so many times for things that He does not do! If a person allows all kinds of horrible things in their home and then horrible things result, such as abuse, mistreatment, murder, etc. how is that God's fault? " For me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15 You choose yourself and you reap yourself. Be not deceived ; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap. Galations 6:7 At any rate, we have no animosity toward you . . . because you see, we pray that God will send us the captives, the brokenhearted, the sick . . . so here you are and we are here to reveal the Father to you!

"NEO . . . what in the world has happened to you to harden your heart toward God? You must have suffered great losses!"

- Sonnet, buddy, what has happened to your softened brain? You must have a mental illness or suffer from delusion. Of course I don't really mean this Sonnet, but I said these things to give you an example of how claiming non believers are somehow damaged is insulting and simply not true, and one could easily say the same for believers. In fact the FACT that the vast majority of violent criminals are believers is just evidence that those who have faith are more likely to have "hardened hearts" or be sociopathic. Stats rarely lie my friend.

"It is very simple . . . God is a JUST God and His justice will come, one way or the other! It is either when we repent and the price has been paid by the Cross or His judgment will come! Simple!"

- Well apparently it's not that simple to all the non christians who don;t believe this. Just saying.

"Just because you do not choose Him, does not mean that you will not be judged by Him."

- Agreed, however unlikely it is, it's possible I could be getting judged right now, but just because you choose to believe this, doesn't make it true. It's also possible you an I are both being judged by Allah so technically we're in the same boat.

"you are walking around with every sin that you have ever committed on your back! It is HEAVY!!! But those of us that have accepted Him . . . we are free!"

- Well i don't believe in the biblical sense of "sin" and the supernatural punishment that follows so I feel no weight. One could just as easily say you are walking around a slave to a mythical tyrant who keeps you inline through fear and manipulation. Atheists don't have this, so not only do they not have the burden of "sin" since we don't believe in it, but we also don't have the burden of the fear of god. Nothing could be more freeing than that my friend

"The words that you speak just find a rocky, hard spot in us and can not take root ."

- I agree somewhat, people are set in their ways my friend. Not everyone will be able to unshackle themselves from this mythology, but some are mentally strong enough to see that there is no rational in their faith. This is evidenced by the ever growing numbers of non believers. Non belief is growing much faster than christianity my friend, so apparently the word is taking root. The country will be nearly 50% atheist by 2040, if the growth rate stays the same. That is HUGE!!.

"you see, you bring them forth to stir up strive but it just brings all of us together . . . even to pray for you."

- The only ones that seem to be flustered and angered by all this are believers, if you guys are so comfortable in your faith, why join the discussion at all? Just sit back and turn the other cheek right?

"God gets a bad rap so many times for things that He does not do!"

- Not for the things he does, for the things he condones, orders, in his books etc. god doesn't actually do anything because he's non existent imo.

"Be not deceived ; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap. Galations 6:7"

possibly, but I'm not afraid to take that gamble, it's just one the added freeing benefits of not fearing a vengeful entity.

"At any rate, we have no animosity toward you . . . because you see, we pray that God will send us the captives, the brokenhearted, the sick . . . so here you are and we are here to reveal the Father to you! "

- Nor I towards you, hopefully logic and reason will reach you one day, because it's not too late for the broken minded and mentally ill to be saved from their delusions. Many people are finally waking up and seeing the light, hopefully you will too one day, so here you are and we are here to reveal logic and reason to you. Take care

Black Swan · June 22, 2012

Neo...can't answer all of your comments, as I'm on my iphone, also don't have access to all of my research notes, so I'll have to adlib it...but I think you may be putting the horse before the cart when you try to correlate low crime rates and atheism. Let me explain:

Why do people believe/pray to a deity? When you boil it down, basically 2 reason float to the top: 1. So that good things happen to you, or atleast no bad things. 2. To obtain an afterlife in the presence of the Deity and friends/family. Agree?

Yea there are other sub bennies but these are the two biggies. Now, looking around, which countries are the happiest in the world? As I've demonstrated numerous times, it's the scandinavian countries (i.e norway, sweden, finland, netherlands). What do they all have in common? Yes, they ARE basically atheist...but I get ahead of myself. What else do these countries share? They all have very strong social nets/safeguard set up. At the risk of getting pelted with negatives, they are all SOCIALIST. Funny isn't it, that one word is so hated by Americans, and especially here on this site, but...its a proven fact, socialist are happier than capitalist.

Why is that? Well, they no longer have to worry about keeping up with the Jones, they all share an excellent standard of living. They don't have to worry about health, state medical services are provided. They don't have to worry about being able to send their kids off to a good school..again because it is paid for. They get a min of 6 weeks of vacations a year, and numerous holidays, like 15ish. They only work 32-35 hrs a week and have endless sick leave. And yes, of course they pay higher taxes, but that is OK...because everyone is HAPPY. Guess what happens when everone is happy, crime goes down. Why steal, you don't need to, as you have everything you need for a good life.

Now here you sit, happy, well educated, in good health,low crime area...and if something bad happens, you know society will step in to help you out. So, in this case, what would you pray for? There isn't a need for Mr. Skyman to take care of you, because you take care of your neighbors and they take care of you. And of course now that you are highly educated, you know about how evolution works, and how Christianity is really a spin off of many pagan religions...oh and that Emperor Constantinoble basically used it as a social cohesive device to united the Roman Empire. Had his mother, a camp follower not "taken up" with some Roman soliders, Christianity would have been just another footnote in world religons. But I digress and may be approaching overload for those folks that aren't open minded.

So why yes, you are correct, atheist societies DO have lower crime rates, but I think if you match their form of government up, you'd see that there is a high correlation between socialism, low crime rates and atheism. I rest my case.

I'll resume my enlightenment after my weekend is over. Again, love this debate!! :twothumbs:

umbertino · June 22, 2012

Very interesting debate.... Thanks.

NEODinar · June 23, 2012

Neo...can't answer all of your comments, as I'm on my iphone, also don't have access to all of my research notes, so I'll have to adlib it...but I think you may be putting the horse before the cart when you try to correlate low crime rates and atheism. Let me explain: Why do people believe/pray to a deity? When you boil it down, basically 2 reason float to the top: 1. So that good things happen to you, or atleast no bad things. 2. To obtain an afterlife in the presence of the Deity and friends/family. Agree? Yea there are other sub bennies but these are the two biggies. Now, looking around, which countries are the happiest in the world? As I've demonstrated numerous times, it's the scandinavian countries (i.e norway, sweden, finland, netherlands). What do they all have in common? Yes, they ARE basically atheist...but I get ahead of myself. What else do these countries share? They all have very strong social nets/safeguard set up. At the risk of getting pelted with negatives, they are all SOCIALIST. Funny isn't it, that one word is so hated by Americans, and especially here on this site, but...its a proven fact, socialist are happier than capitalist. <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> Why is that? Well, they no longer have to worry about keeping up with the Jones, they all share an excellent standard of living. They don't have to worry about health, state medical services are provided. They don't have to worry about being able to send their kids off to a good school..again because it is paid for. They get a min of 6 weeks of vacations a year, and numerous holidays, like 15ish. They only work 32-35 hrs a week and have endless sick leave. And yes, of course they pay higher taxes, but that is OK...because everyone is HAPPY. Guess what happens when everone is happy, crime goes down. Why steal, you don't need to, as you have everything you need for a good life. <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> Now here you sit, happy, well educated, in good health,low crime area...and if something bad happens, you know society will step in to help you out. So, in this case, what would you pray for? There isn't a need for Mr. Skyman to take care of you, because you take care of your neighbors and they take care of you. And of course now that you are highly educated, you know about how evolution works, and how Christianity is really a spin off of many pagan religions...oh and that Emperor Constantinoble basically used it as a social cohesive device to united the Roman Empire. Had his mother, a camp follower not "taken up" with some Roman soliders, Christianity would have been just another footnote in world religons. But I digress and may be approaching overload for those folks that aren't open minded. So why yes, you are correct, atheist societies DO have lower crime rates, but I think if you match their form of government up, you'd see that there is a high correlation between socialism, low crime rates and atheism. I rest my case. <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> I'll resume my enlightenment after my weekend is over. Again, love this debate!! <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/th_smiley_two_thumbs_up.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

"Why do people believe/pray to a deity? When you boil it down, basically 2 reason float to the top: 1. So that good things happen to you, or atleast no bad things. 2. To obtain an afterlife in the presence of the Deity and friends/family. Agree?"

- Agreed, except I would add that people pray for others as well, not just themselves.

"Funny isn't it, that one word is so hated by Americans, and especially here on this site, but...its a proven fact, socialist are happier than capitalist."

- Lol! completely agree. Somehow the idea of working for the greater good and happiness of all a countries citizens is somehow a negative, go figure.

"Why is that? Well, they no longer have to worry about keeping up with the Jones, they all share an excellent standard of living. They don't have to worry about health, state medical services are provided. They don't have to worry about being able to send their kids off to a good school..again because it is paid for. They get a min of 6 weeks of vacations a year, and numerous holidays, like 15ish. They only work 32-35 hrs a week and have endless sick leave. And yes, of course they pay higher taxes, but that is OK...because everyone is HAPPY. Guess what happens when everone is happy, crime goes down. Why steal, you don't need to, as you have everything you need for a good life. "

- Makes perfect sense and is backed up by the stats.

"Now here you sit, happy, well educated, in good health,low crime area...and if something bad happens, you know society will step in to help you out. So, in this case, what would you pray for? There isn't a need for Mr. Skyman to take care of you, because you take care of your neighbors and they take care of you."

- People pray for all types of reasons, I don't think being socially content necessarily means people won't pray. Content or not, believers will always have something to pray on. For instance, they might pray to stay socially content, or they might pray for others who aren't, or as I have been told numerous times over the course of this thread they will pray for the faithless etc. Believers pray because they have faith, and faith is a crutch for most people. They rely on it to get them through tough times, they rely on it for security, comfort, reasoning, etc. Thats why for instance you ironically find many blacks who are strong believers as there is a link between oppression and religion. ironically they hold on to the crutch that very people who enslaved them forced upon them. This is how powerful a crutch it can be. So in these countries that have high rates of happiness, it seems one could claim that in certain instances being content can deter one from needing the comfort crutch of faith. So essentially I'm saying what you are stating but just boiling it down a bit further past just prayer to belief itself.

" And of course now that you are highly educated, you know about how evolution works, and how Christianity is really a spin off of many pagan religions...oh and that Emperor Constantinoble basically used it as a social cohesive device to united the Roman Empire. Had his mother, a camp follower not "taken up" with some Roman soliders, Christianity would have been just another footnote in world religons. But I digress and may be approaching overload for those folks that aren't open minded."

- yeah I would tread carefully, you might just be asking for the wrath lol! Agreed, to most open minded individuals such as you and I, it's obvious that religion was constructed as a scare tactic used to keep social order. I mean take the story of jesus, there have been so many other nearly exact savior tales that came well before the christian savior story ever occurred. I mean it's so clear that these are simply a combination of rehashed tales from older religions. To us and other non believers it's clearly man made.

"So why yes, you are correct, atheist societies DO have lower crime rates, but I think if you match their form of government up, you'd see that there is a high correlation between socialism, low crime rates and atheism. I rest my case."

- New Zealand, Hong Kong, Japan, Czech Republic, Belgium, France, Russia, Slovenia, Germany, South Korea, UK, Hungary, Bulgaria are all non socialist countries with the highest rates of atheism and either very low rates of crime or simply lower crime rates than the U.S. So I agree that socialism can be a crime deterrent, however the stats clearly show that a case could be made for atheism as well. Sounds like the ultimate combination for a peaceful happy country would be a mixture of socialism and atheism lol! One can dream.

Good talks Black Swan. Have a great weekend.

learning all i can · June 23, 2012

barb, its ok to question one another and i take no offense at all. From what you wrote you kinda paralled what i said. Man with a hardened heart cannot find God or should say will not find him until he himself does a little changing, not so much in habits but in spirit. Thats not to say he will never find him. We were all sinners absent from the spirit of god before we found him. But as i think back something or someone made something click either by what they said or something they done that made the inside of me to want to see what the other side was like. Remember how pharoah was toward moses, his heart was so hardened he never seen or wanted to see what moses was talking about even after the plaques. There is no one in this country that does not know what a church is and what is taught inside. Example: if i am going down the road and pass by this church it is my choice to stop, go in and learn or pass it on by. Now the holy spirit does try to woo us but free will of choice is stronger sometimes which we control ourselves. Again not signaling anyone out for any reason just relaying my thoughts to all......By the way, i haven't heard from you in a long time, good to see your still kicking.

Hi Heavy, good to see you again also but I still must disagree with your above post.

When I read what you have written, I actually see you giving "self" more credit for our salvation than you are the work of Christ and God's mercy and grace. I don't mean to sound so harsh but apparently you and I do not understand "free will" and choice in the same way. Please bare with me as I express my belief and understanding of God's word.

If I could choose God all by my self, with my free will, then Jesus died on the cross in vain. Our hearts are not only hardened and sinful but we are truely a depraved people. You speak of changing ourselves in spirit. How can we change if we are not 1st approached? without God revealing himselve to us? Without God softening our hearts, without His calling and without His Spirit bearing witness with our spirit?

Yes, Pharoah's heart was hardened but God raised him up for that very purpose. God could have softened Pharoah's heart just as easy. My point being.....We cannot change ourselves by ouselves. We are dependant on God for all things and we must give the credit for our salvation to Jesus, for only He is worthy for such praise.

This is what you said..quote: "Now the holy spirit does try to woo us but free will of choice is stronger sometimes which we control ourselves." end quote.

Heavy, the Holy Spirit doesn't "try". He either does or He doesn't. Our LORD is soveriegn=He possesses all power and is the ruler of all things. His rule and work is according to His eternal purpose. For us to even think that our "free will" is stronger or plays a bigger role in our salvation is....well Heavy, it is just wrong. The way we present things to others about our salvation is so important.

Self/ego/pride or our own works have no right to claim any part of our salvation, and when we claim free will over the Holy Spirits calling, then we are claiming glory for ourselves instead of giving ALL Glory and Praise to Jesus.

I hope you can see what I am trying to express here.

We are "called" 1st..if we weren't then we would never use our "free will" to choose God. He must and does do a work in our heart 1st before we are capable of choosing...I personally give all the credit and glory to our Saviour for my salvation.

Hope I have given a better understand and/or explanation this go around and my words don't sound harsh and unloving..It is good to see and hear from you too, Heavy...God bless.....barb

Orthophonic · June 23, 2012

Quote

wouldn't it simply make more sense for god to just destroy satan. If he is "all powerful", why not just eradicate satan and evil all together??

End Quote

I have been wondering about that myslf a few times......I'm sure someone more expert than myself on the subject will come up with an answer.

He said He will, and He will.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Orthophonic

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