Adam Wednesday Night Chat 4-27-11

[hurricanewayne]

Regardless of what they *can* back, they will make more money if they RV low. Why give all that money away?

Especially when they can do this:

1. RV at $0.10. When 80% of us cash in, they buy their own money for that low price.

2. Steadily increase the value. They sell the same bill back to us for $0.15

3. The value keeps increasing, so we sell it back at $0.20

4. Repeat, repeat, repeat all the way up to the final resting value of $2.00 or so.

(Who made money? We ALL did. Multiple times.)

Read more:

OK I can see you point of view, but if they go low at .10 cents wouldn't that make a lot more people who didn't get into this the first time go crazy and buy as much as they can won't they loss more in the long run by doing it that way

[drox]

I simply do not understand the people that think .10-.25 cents is low. Do you realize that a 10 cent RV is about a 1200% increase and a 25 cent RV is about a 3000% increase?

What is your current money market account giving you? Less than 3% right? What are most stock brokerages hoping to give you for a return...5%-12%??? Seriously, it seems you have lost reality here guys. The $3.22 rates were a different time and under much different circumstances. There have been way too many variables that have occured in the last 20+ years that have made this currency plummet. Saddam ran that currency into the ground. YOU CAN NOT just flip a light switch. There are responsibilities and obligations that must factor in. To the CBI, the GOI, the Iraqi citizens, the condition of Iraq herself, the investors, the IMF, the World Bank, the UN, the Arab states, and the world economy.

I will be ecstatic if that happens! Thanks Adam!

[speculatorsRIDE]

I guess I just don't see the big picture here. I thought I had a pretty good grasp of what was going on, but, after reading this thread, it appears I don't.

So if I have this right, Iraq intends to lop their currency. They have 24 trillion in circulation and after the lop they will have 24 billion in circulation. That 24 billion is going to come in at $.10 after RV. That will make the total of the countries currency worth 240 billion. At 240 billion, everyone does realize that 1 individual or corporation could conceivably say "You know what, I'll buy the whole thing. Would you like that in a check or can I use my smart card?"

I am all for staying grounded. I realize that no one knows what the rate or date will be. (including me) However, for the guru's to all of a sudden start pushing this whole $.10 RV theory, and for everyone to just nod their head and thank them for their opinion, to me, seems a little unnerving.

I was told the other day that Iraq has always been on a managed float and will always be. Really? I must have missed that news article. Could someone explain to me why an emerging country with the proven wealth that Iraq has would want to have a managed float? Why would they not want to come in at a rate that is low and buy and sell their own currency on the way up to make bank? Why they would give up the bank they would make on others buying and selling their currency on the rise? Is not Iraq going to compare with the United States in wealth?

I ask this question the other day and didn't get a response. Of course, I have to be honest, I never went back and checked to see if anyone ever did respond. Here is my question. When does Iraq's non-liquid assets get monetized? You know those little things like the 150 billion barrels (worth 15 trillion USD at $100 a barrel) of proven oil in the ground or the other 350 billion barrels (worth 35 trillion USD) That's a total of 50 trillion USD in the ground waiting to be monetized into asset. Keep in mind that they still have 42% of their land that has not been surveyed yet for oil. What about the proven natural gas they have which is the largest known amount in the world at this time? When do they get to count that? Non print precious metals, non liquid and unconvertible currencies, stocks, bonds, futures, etc? You all realize that all our items mentioned here are included in our assets? Why would Iraq not be able to count them? Do they need to be a part of the WTO first? Is it the IMF that decides when they count these assets?

Just putting these things out there for folks to ponder on. Don't listen to those that tell you that Iraq can't afford a pre-war rate. They most certainly can and then some once the rest of their assets are monetized. Go RV

[bluejay]

ok i know this is going to make a lot of people mad here and i really dont mean it to offened anyone but i really dont think adam is as smart or has as good of info as most in here belive im not saying that he is not smart because he seems to be very intellingent but his info is way off base i feel that he is ignoring the facts and that is truely all that matters here so sorry if i have made anyone mad i just dont think our guru knows as much as he leads on he simply just gives us an hypothisis(educated guess) its just the way i feel

Brave words from a newbie with 3-posts....I myself would forgive the naive statement. Let me just say if you do some research on what Adam thinks about the IQD investment you will find nothing more then solid sound advice, I don't know if maybe your reacting to the current post and don't like the reality that things could possibly go the opposite that we hope for, but please understand that a great leader has to be honest, and this current post is just that...Now that your here on DV go back to some of the threads and see for your self why people here respect what he says...I'm not bashing you either for your comment just want you to really understand were he's coming from...peace...

[Adam Montana]

Well Adam, you sure mention the possibility of a lop, everytime you post now...

I just answered the questions that were asked, and I did so in the most honest and straight forward manner I can.

You don't have to agree with me, and of course not everyone will agree with me 100% of the time. If it wasn't for paying VIP members, you wouldn't be able to use this site in the first place - I deserve respect and so do the people who pay to keep this place running. I don't demand that you become a VIP member, but I do demand that you show respect... please watch the tone of your future posts.

Thanks.

Hooray for the condensed version! The long chats spin me right down to a little nub. The short chats are better for us with no attention span.

Glad you enjoyed it!

I ask this question the other day and didn't get a response. Of course, I have to be honest, I never went back and checked to see if anyone ever did respond.

That is one of the funnier quotes for the day, nice work!!!!

[sammiePJ]

This why .. i havent been logging on dinar vets.. i come and read everything and what i see and read mostly is bashing and a lot of BS.. though most of the information i agree with but other information i question. NO ONE knows what the rate will be NO ONE knows if there will or will not be a LOP.. only guessing... no one has insider information .. that will or would give any solid information period.. .10 to .25 ... .85 cents.... 25k equals 25.00 us ... 1.17 ... 2.00 plus .... 3.00 plus... every day its something different.. so i don't believe anyone when it comes to a rate.. the bottom line is a simple one... when it happens .. then we will know... NO IM NOT new at this... been vested for a years...

and no im not bashing adam or anyone else...but no one knows what will happen until it happens;.. and IF there is an lop ... then oh well ... it's still more then what i had.. but im not running out to buy more.. because of it... peace to you all.... and yes i was VIP... and yes there are good things with the VIP... but you dont need to be VIP .. to get notice of any RV.... educate yourselves... and you will know just as fast as everyone else.

[pleasantvalleySunday]

Well Adam, you sure mention the possibility of a lop, everytime you post now, and when I bought your e-book a year ago, you didn't give any credence to a lop. I'm just glad that I'm not paying for VIP membership, and really glad that I didn't open a Warka account. You've also gone way down on your rate prediction. You've been entertaining 10 cents, and if I'm not mistaken, in your book you stated that you felt it would be around $2.00 ( I may be wrong, so I'll read the book again ). When I made this investment it was only because Iraq's currency was way under valued. I do not believe anyone knows anything about what is going to happen to the dinar except for high ranking officials from Iraq, China, Russia, and the U.S. Everything today is, this might happen, or that might happen, if a one-legged chicken crosses the street on Wednesday the RV will happen on Thursday. I've come to the realization, that I know as much as anyone in regards to this investment, and that is the dinar is inexpensive and some day, maybe, it will increase in value. There certainly is no reason to be a VIP member or invest in Iraq, especially if they are going to "screw" the world and lop their currency. If they do lop their currency, then the U.S.A. needs to turn Iraq into glass.

muchodinaro ... if your nickname is at all indicative of your level of investment, then you must have enuff to be happy no matter what the rate ends up being. I would certainly not go around disparaging something when you obviously have no idea what you're talking about..... now you're paying zip zero nada to be able to say what you want.... (for now ).... but remember you ARE a guest in this house.

pvS

[DiNaR DoCtOr]

I guess I just don't see the big picture here. I thought I had a pretty good grasp of what was going on, but, after reading this thread, it appears I don't.

So if I have this right, Iraq intends to lop their currency. They have 24 trillion in circulation and after the lop they will have 24 billion in circulation. That 24 billion is going to come in at $.10 after RV. That will make the total of the countries currency worth 240 billion. At 240 billion, everyone does realize that 1 individual or corporation could conceivably say "You know what, I'll buy the whole thing. Would you like that in a check or can I use my smart card?"

I am all for staying grounded. I realize that no one knows what the rate or date will be. (including me) However, for the guru's to all of a sudden start pushing this whole $.10 RV theory, and for everyone to just nod their head and thank them for their opinion, to me, seems a little unnerving.

I was told the other day that Iraq has always been on a managed float and will always be. Really? I must have missed that news article. Could someone explain to me why an emerging country with the proven wealth that Iraq has would want to have a managed float? Why would they not want to come in at a rate that is low and buy and sell their own currency on the way up to make bank? Why they would give up the bank they would make on others buying and selling their currency on the rise? Is not Iraq going to compare with the United States in wealth?

I ask this question the other day and didn't get a response. Of course, I have to be honest, I never went back and checked to see if anyone ever did respond. Here is my question. When does Iraq's non-liquid assets get monetized? You know those little things like the 150 billion barrels (worth 15 trillion USD at $100 a barrel) of proven oil in the ground or the other 350 billion barrels (worth 35 trillion USD) That's a total of 50 trillion USD in the ground waiting to be monetized into asset. Keep in mind that they still have 42% of their land that has not been surveyed yet for oil. What about the proven natural gas they have which is the largest known amount in the world at this time? When do they get to count that? Non print precious metals, non liquid and unconvertible currencies, stocks, bonds, futures, etc? You all realize that all our items mentioned here are included in our assets? Why would Iraq not be able to count them? Do they need to be a part of the WTO first? Is it the IMF that decides when they count these assets?

Just putting these things out there for folks to ponder on. Don't listen to those that tell you that Iraq can't afford a pre-war rate. They most certainly can and then some once the rest of their assets are monetized. Go RV

If it lopped to $24 billion and RV'd would it not be $2.4 billion (USD) of currency? I personally think a managed float is better than a free currency. It gives them additional control over their currency. I would imagine that if their currency is backed mostly by a commodity like oil they would be more susceptible to changes in the value of their currency. Oil is high now, so they would run surpluses. If oil fell, would their currency not fall as well if it supports their currency more than any other good or service produced. That is why it is not good to have gold backed currency. If another country decides to change from their gold backed currency to silver backed currency, the demand falls (price) and so does the value of currency backed by gold. Could be wrong tho!

[speculatorsRIDE]

If it lopped to $24 billion and RV'd would it not be $2.4 billion (USD) of currency? I personally think a managed float is better than a free currency. It gives them additional control over their currency. I would imagine that if their currency is backed mostly by a commodity like oil they would be more susceptible to changes in the value of their currency. Oil is high now, so they would run surpluses. If oil fell, would their currency not fall as well if it supports their currency more than any other good or service produced. That is why it is not good to have gold backed currency. If another country decides to change from their gold backed currency to silver backed currency, the demand falls (price) and so does the value of currency backed by gold. Could be wrong tho!

Absolutely right Doc. That just means that more of the whales would have a chance at buying the country. A whole lot more folks have 2.4 billion then the ones that have 240 billion laying around. This is just more fuel for there not being a lop in my opinion.

If oil fell? You mean if it fell to say $85.00 a barrel? So that 500 billion barrels would only be worth $42.5 trillion USD. Good point.

Edited April 28, 2011 by speculatorsRIDE

[Darin]

Absolutely right Doc. That just means that more of the whales would have a chance at buying the country. A whole lot more folks have 2.4 billion then the ones that have 240 billion laying around. This is just more fuel for there not being a lop in my opinion.

If oil fell? You mean if it fell to say $85.00 a barrel? So that 500 billion barrels would only be worth $42.5 trillion USD. Good point.

You did your math wrong...

Okay... So we assume 24 trillion in circulation. They state that 27 is the entire ciruclation but 3 trillion has been pulled in by the CBI. Not sure if the reports are entirely true, but for the time-being, lets assume 24 trillion is correct. We LOP 3 zeros off. Okay, simple, we go from 24 Trillion to 24 Billion.

Okay, 24 Billion in IQD. But that doesn't represent the USD value. We multiply by $0.85 for that. 24B x $0.86 = 20.64 Billion in USD value.

Now, as I know it currently sits. The CBI has roughly $50 Billion in cash reserves. Wow! That means they could eaisly double the value of their currency and have enough cash reserves to back it up.

But wait, only a % of IQD would ever be cashed in upon a re-denomination/LOP, right? Surely the MAJORITY of the currency would reside within the country. So lets just assume 35% is outside the country (being held by Foreign Govts., banks, currency dealers, and individual speculators) This would mean they would only need roughly $7.224 B to cash out to those foreign investors. In other words, they could basically LOP than RV at roughly 7 times the value and should have enough cash reserves to back up the exchanges. Now, not everyone will cash out right away, and some will also buy in after this happens with the expectations of a re-value after the LOP. The cash reserves would likely be kept stabilized as some cash out and others buy in. Foreign govts may hold onto their holdings as assets, cash reserves, or simply other reason(s).

They could RV at a PENNY and basically support the value... And still have massive amounts of room to improve the value over time & make profit.

FYI basically to us if they were to RV at a penny.. We for the most part 10 times our $$.

But here is the next issue at a penny. Who would be willing to sell? Who would be willing to buy? Many would still hold onto their holdings while others jump in & buy up.. So the introductory rate of a penny probably sits to low. Obviously $3 would be to high as nobody would buy and everyone would sell. They need to find that market value where they have the same value of sellers vs. buyers.

[DiNaR DoCtOr]

You did your math wrong...

Okay... So we assume 24 trillion in circulation. They state that 27 is the entire ciruclation but 3 trillion has been pulled in by the CBI. Not sure if the reports are entirely true, but for the time-being, lets assume 24 trillion is correct. We LOP 3 zeros off. Okay, simple, we go from 24 Trillion to 24 Billion.

Okay, 24 Billion in IQD. But that doesn't represent the USD value. We multiply by $0.85 for that. 24B x $0.86 = 20.64 Billion in USD value.

Now, as I know it currently sits. The CBI has roughly $50 Billion in cash reserves. Wow! That means they could eaisly double the value of their currency and have enough cash reserves to back it up.

But wait, only a % of IQD would ever be cashed in upon a re-denomination/LOP, right? Surely the MAJORITY of the currency would reside within the country. So lets just assume 35% is outside the country (being held by Foreign Govts., banks, currency dealers, and individual speculators) This would mean they would only need roughly $7.224 B to cash out to those foreign investors. In other words, they could basically LOP than RV at roughly 7 times the value and should have enough cash reserves to back up the exchanges. Now, not everyone will cash out right away, and some will also buy in after this happens with the expectations of a re-value after the LOP. The cash reserves would likely be kept stabilized as some cash out and others buy in. Foreign govts may hold onto their holdings as assets, cash reserves, or simply other reason(s).

They could RV at a PENNY and basically support the value... And still have massive amounts of room to improve the value over time & make profit.

FYI basically to us if they were to RV at a penny.. We for the most part 10 times our $$.

But here is the next issue at a penny. Who would be willing to sell? Who would be willing to buy? Many would still hold onto their holdings while others jump in & buy up.. So the introductory rate of a penny probably sits to low. Obviously $3 would be to high as nobody would buy and everyone would sell. They need to find that market value where they have the same value of sellers vs. buyers.

You are right on the math! I just did a basic one for one exchange with USD for simplicity reasons. And I thought international finance classes were worthless.

[bright]

This why .. i havent been logging on dinar vets.. i come and read everything and what i see and read mostly is bashing and a lot of BS.. though most of the information i agree with but other information i question. NO ONE knows what the rate will be NO ONE knows if there will or will not be a LOP.. only guessing... no one has insider information .. that will or would give any solid information period.. .10 to .25 ... .85 cents.... 25k equals 25.00 us ... 1.17 ... 2.00 plus .... 3.00 plus... every day its something different.. so i don't believe anyone when it comes to a rate.. the bottom line is a simple one... when it happens .. then we will know... NO IM NOT new at this... been vested for a years...

and no im not bashing adam or anyone else...but no one knows what will happen until it happens;.. and IF there is an lop ... then oh well ... it's still more then what i had.. but im not running out to buy more.. because of it... peace to you all.... and yes i was VIP... and yes there are good things with the VIP... but you dont need to be VIP .. to get notice of any RV.... educate yourselves... and you will know just as fast as everyone else.

I also will not be buying anymore and I bet the trade companies are at a all time low in sales.....ofcourse they have made a fortune on us the past few years..........although I and all the so called gurus don't have a clue what is going to happen with the hopeful RV there are people of importance that do know the outcome.......wish it could get leaked to us all........

[Darin]

I also will not be buying anymore and I bet the trade companies are at a all time low in sales.....ofcourse they have made a fortune on us the past few years..........although I and all the so called gurus don't have a clue what is going to happen with the hopeful RV there are people of importance that do know the outcome.......wish it could get leaked to us all........

Many do believe that the dealers are having their supply run dry.

Also, the continous Lop, RD, removal of 3 zeros, lifting of 3 zeros, delete of 3 zeros, and so forth likely have scared many speculative investors from investing more or making an initial purchase. (In some regards, some may feel that with the frequency of these articles, some may have already sold back).

But, if we sell to a bank or DT - its not like they're going to run to the CBI and cash out right away, they'll like hold the bills as well. So I can't see how much of an impact it'll have on CBI sales.

Auctions have reduced, so we will need to continue following that and see what happens. Claims of a tax has scared away purchasers, but we will see in the coming days what may happen.

[speculatorsRIDE]

I guess I just don't see the big picture here. I thought I had a pretty good grasp of what was going on, but, after reading this thread, it appears I don't.

So if I have this right, Iraq intends to lop their currency. They have 24 trillion in circulation and after the lop they will have 24 billion in circulation. That 24 billion is going to come in at $.10 after RV. That will make the total of the countries currency worth 2.4 billion. At 2.4 billion, everyone does realize that 1 individual or corporation could conceivably say "You know what, I'll buy the whole thing. Would you like that in a check or can I use my smart card?"

I am all for staying grounded. I realize that no one knows what the rate or date will be. (including me) However, for the guru's to all of a sudden start pushing this whole $.10 RV theory, and for everyone to just nod their head and thank them for their opinion, to me, seems a little unnerving.

I was told the other day that Iraq has always been on a managed float and will always be. Really? I must have missed that news article. Could someone explain to me why an emerging country with the proven wealth that Iraq has would want to have a managed float? Why would they not want to come in at a rate that is low and buy and sell their own currency on the way up to make bank? Why they would give up the bank they would make on others buying and selling their currency on the rise? Is not Iraq going to compare with the United States in wealth?

I ask this question the other day and didn't get a response. Of course, I have to be honest, I never went back and checked to see if anyone ever did respond. Here is my question. When does Iraq's non-liquid assets get monetized? You know those little things like the 150 billion barrels (worth 15 trillion USD at $100 a barrel) of proven oil in the ground or the other 350 billion barrels (worth 35 trillion USD) That's a total of 50 trillion USD in the ground waiting to be monetized into asset. Keep in mind that they still have 42% of their land that has not been surveyed yet for oil. What about the proven natural gas they have which is the largest known amount in the world at this time? When do they get to count that? Non print precious metals, non liquid and unconvertible currencies, stocks, bonds, futures, etc? You all realize that all our items mentioned here are included in our assets? Why would Iraq not be able to count them? Do they need to be a part of the WTO first? Is it the IMF that decides when they count these assets?

Just putting these things out there for folks to ponder on. Don't listen to those that tell you that Iraq can't afford a pre-war rate. They most certainly can and then some once the rest of their assets are monetized. Go RV

Perhaps the post is to long. Start where I say "I ask this question the other day and didn't get a response. Of course, I have to be honest, I never went back and checked..."

Anyone know when these assets get monetized?

[k98nights]

Sorry I missed the chat, but things were a bit hairy here in Alabama last night...

[Bumper64]

Sorry I missed the chat, but things were a bit hairy here in Alabama last night...

Glad you are doing ok buddy!!!!

[hookerwife]

scooter..bumper what is your take on all this news...would love to hear your opinions

[speculatorsRIDE]

I didn't get an answer to my question so I went searching and found out when they monetize assets. This is important info you should read:

Just what we have been talkin' about, as to what could not happen under Article XIV IMF, listed in the Exclusions of 'Non Liquid Assets' in Addendum ii of the Stand BY Agreements from Sept 18 2010 and the SBA March 3, 2011.

This move should satisfy the remaining requirements of IMF Article XIV, and put them right on track to transition into Article VIII, which will change that.

There is not just oil, on that list of 'Exclusions' from the Reserves, that the value of the money is based on, either.

See : Iraq: Second Review Under the Stand-By Arrangement, Requests for Waiver of Applicability, Extension of the Arrangement, and Rephasing of Access—Staff Report; Press Release on the Executive Board Discussion; and Statement by the Executive Director for Iraq.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=24727.0

Once you load the pdf.... then look at page 43....

ATTACHMENT III. IRAQ: TECHNICAL MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING

March 3, 2011

Then scroll to "Definitions" and look for "Net International Reserves" (Item 7.)

7. Net international reserves (NIR) are defined as gross usable reserves minus reserverelated

liabilities of the CBI. Gross usable reserves of the CBI are claims of the CBI on nonresidents

that are controlled by the CBI, denominated in foreign convertible currencies, and

are immediately and unconditionally available to the CBI for meeting balance of payments

needs or for intervention in foreign exchange markets, and are not earmarked by the CBI for

meeting specific payments. They include CBI holdings of monetary gold, SDRs, Iraq’s

reserve position in the IMF, foreign currency cash, and deposits abroad, except for the

resources of the DFI but including the CBI DFI sub-account. Excluded from reserve assets are any assets that are pledged, collateralized, or otherwise encumbered; claims on residents; precious metals other than monetary gold; assets in non-convertible currencies; illiquid assets; and claims on foreign exchange arising from derivatives in foreign currencies vis-à-vis

domestic currency (such as futures, forwards, swaps, and options). Reserve-related liabilities shall be defined as foreign currency denominated liabilities of the CBI to non-residents with original maturity of one year or less, and all liabilities to the Fund, but excluding the liabilities

represented by SDR allocations. They include: foreign currency reserves of commercial banks

held at the CBI; commitments to sell foreign currency arising from derivatives (such as

futures, forwards, swaps, and options); and all arrears on principal or interest payments to

commercial banks, suppliers, or official export credit agencies. As of December 31, 2009,

(net) international reserves amounted to US$44.34 billion, all comprising of reserve assets.

The program floors on the net international reserves of the CBI are reported in Table 1.

Note.... that the Reserves amount is already outdated..... as it is now about $52 Billion based on recent increases, once in Dec. to $50 Billion, and again, in April, by and additional $2 Billion.

Also.... you may want to research further, and you will find, that these 'Exclusions' listed above, are part of IMF Article XIV provisions and once they go to Article VIII compliance, (As is required by the IMF and also required by the WTO for final accession, consistent with the 1994 GATT Treaty),

Those 'Exclusions' go away and those listed as 'Non Liquid Assets' are then 'Monetized' into 'Liquidity' and become part of the 'Basis' of the Real Equitable Exchange Rate (REER) and the 'Program Rate' (Nominal), becomes non existent.

Just how much are those 'Non Liquid Assets' worth? $$$ Trillions????

>>Hey.... I heard Donald Trump today on Michael Savage, speaking about Iraq.

>>>He said, "The 'Proven' oil reserves alone, are worth about $15 Trillion Dollars." ~Donald Trump April 12, 2011 on Michael Savage National Broadcast.

Now.... that only accounts for the 150 Billion Barrels of 'Proven Reserves' and does not include other non liquid assets, like the other 350 Billion Barrels under the sand, natural gas, non mint precious metals, futures, etc. etc. etc.

I do not know, how long it really takes to remove all the Dinar from the market.... but it is irrelevant. What they remove, will be digitized and they can easily cover $30 Trillion IQD, projected in that same report, to be in circulation in form of Currency, Foreign Reserves and Digital, by 2012.

The point I am making here, is this..... even IF they have $30 Trillion still in circulation.... they can easily value at a Dollar or more.... so the question IS NOT how fast can they remove large bills from circulation, but it is "How quickly can they monetize those assets and for how much?"

[Austin-Powers-for-PM]

I just answered the questions that were asked, and I did so in the most honest and straight forward manner I can.

You don't have to agree with me, and of course not everyone will agree with me 100% of the time. If it wasn't for paying VIP members, you wouldn't be able to use this site in the first place - I deserve respect and so do the people who pay to keep this place running. I don't demand that you become a VIP member, but I do demand that you show respect... please watch the tone of your future posts.

Thanks.

Wow, what a snotty answer to an honest question. Adam, I've never seen you so disrespectful to any of us like that. I would hope you, sir, would watch the tone of YOUR future posts.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Austin-Powers-for-PM

[Bumper64]

WOW!!! On that note I think I will close this thread!! Things that make you go hmmmmmmm!!!!