LET'S BREAK IT DOWN...........

[sonny1]

I

Yes, increase confidence by taking three zeros off the big notes. That would certainly make Iraqis feel better about their money - like I had a bunch of 100 dollar bills, they LOP two zeros and they are now worth a dollar. Yes, yes, RV after RD, but hardly replaces the original 100 bills, does it?

I think you nailed it, and I couldn't agree more.

[dinarck]

I

I think you nailed it, and I couldn't agree more.

So Iraqis will have more confidence in the dinar if it has a lot of zeros all over it? Humm... I am trying to picture how that works. Nope... nothing is coming to mind.

[HopefulTxn]

Yes, No Basis. The CBI can make press release, after press release telling the world its going to be 1000:1, but until they codify that into LAW, 1000:1 ain't happening. I'm not trying to be difficult or rude, just trying to get you to understand, there is no LEGAL BASIS in the CBI Law that supports the 1000:1 exchange rate.

You need to look at the intent of the CBI Law and Article 36, especially. We all have to admit that an RV or a LOP is an unusual circumstance, and the law wasn't written with these two circumstances in mind, but rather, a normal everyday transaction. With this in mind, you will have to agree equivalent means 1:1.

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It all depends on what you mean by 1:1... If you mean that the current CBI Law does not allow for anything within its text for anything other than a 1:1 dinar to dinar exchange, then no I do not agree with your definition of equivalent...

The term 'equivalent' refers to the value, so if 1000 old held the same as 1 new, then exchanging at that rate would be in equivalent amounts...

equivalent [ɪˈkwɪvələnt]

adj

1. equal or interchangeable in value, quantity, significance, etc.

2. having the same or a similar effect or meaning

3. (Mathematics) Maths

a. having a particular property in common; equal

b. (of two equations or inequalities) having the same set of solutions

c. (of two sets) having the same cardinal number

4. (Philosophy / Logic) Maths Logic (of two propositions) having an equivalence between them

When a company does a stock swap or central banks do a currency exchange, they do so in equivalent amounts... They don't exchange stock to stock or note to note, but rather value to value...

That is all that line in the CBI Law is stating is that in return for one note they will give you another of the same value (aka equivalent amount)...

If 1 new dinar holds the same value as 1000 old dinar, then by definition they would be equivalent amounts...

Edited March 20, 2012 by HopefulTxn

[Markinsa]

It all depends on what you mean by 1:1... If you mean that the current CBI Law does not allow for anything within its text for anything other than a 1:1 dinar to dinar exchange, then no I do not agree with your definition of equivalent...

The term 'equivalent' refers to the value, so if 1000 old held the same as 1 new, then exchanging at that rate would be in equivalent amounts...

equivalent [ɪˈkwɪvələnt]

adj

1. equal or interchangeable in value, quantity, significance, etc.

2. having the same or a similar effect or meaning

3. (Mathematics) Maths

a. having a particular property in common; equal

b. (of two equations or inequalities) having the same set of solutions

c. (of two sets) having the same cardinal number

4. (Philosophy / Logic) Maths Logic (of two propositions) having an equivalence between them

When a company does a stock swap or central banks do a currency exchange, they do so in equivalent amounts... They don't exchange stock to stock or note to note, but rather value to value...

That is all that line in the CBI Law is stating is that in return for one note they will give you another of the same value (aka equivalent amount)...

If 1 new dinar holds the same value as 1000 old dinar, then by definition they would be equivalent amounts...

Where in the CBI Law does it state what the equivalent amounts are? The currency unit is 1 Dinar. I ask you again, please show me in the CBI Law where it states 25 Dinar is equivalent to 25000 Dinar.

Or, how about you type something up, we'll mail it to Iraq and then they can make thousands of copies, and when the average Iraqi goes into the shops to buy something, they can pull out your letter give it to the shop keeper and the shop keeper will have to accept your word, that the 25 Dinar note in the customer's hand is worth the exact same amount as the 25000 Dinar note in the shop keeper's register. Yeah, that'll work...

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[HopefulTxn]

Where in the CBI Law does it state what the equivalent amounts are? The currency unit is 1 Dinar. I ask you again, please show me in the CBI Law where it states 25 Dinar is equivalent to 25000 Dinar.

Or, how about you type something up, we'll mail it to Iraq and then they can make thousands of copies, and when the average Iraqi goes into the shops to buy something, they can pull out your letter give it to the shop keeper and the shop keeper will have to accept your word, that the 25 Dinar note in the customer's hand is worth the exact same amount as the 25000 Dinar note in the shop keeper's register. Yeah, that'll work...

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You are either intentionally trying to not comprehend what that section of the CBI Law says or are incapable of understanding it... Good luck with that...

[dvforumuser]

that the 25 Dinar note in the customer's hand is worth the exact same amount as the 25000 Dinar note in the shop keeper's register. Yeah, that'll work...

It will work just fine as Iraqi's know all about different currencies. There is no problem with the 25000 dinar note being worth around $20 USD is there? Why not? As they are two different currencies. The new dinars will clearly be issued as a new currency, adding a 3rd one into the mix for a time. People that have managed to deal with Saddam's dinars, Swiss dinars, hyperinflation, and the 2003/2004 currency swap will have no problem with this. Did all the other redenominations have massive problems with the people not understanding things? No. Iraq won't be any different.

[Markinsa]

You are either intentionally trying to not comprehend what that section of the CBI Law says or are incapable of understanding it... Good luck with that...

I'll take your response as that you couldn't find the answer to my question. Law is not your strong point? Tell ya what, I'll make a little note here, that when they do pass that law, I'll point it out to you, that this is what I was talking about.

It will work just fine as Iraqi's know all about different currencies. There is no problem with the 25000 dinar note being worth around $20 USD is there? Why not? As they are two different currencies. The new dinars will clearly be issued as a new currency, adding a 3rd one into the mix for a time. People that have managed to deal with Saddam's dinars, Swiss dinars, hyperinflation, and the 2003/2004 currency swap will have no problem with this. Did all the other redenominations have massive problems with the people not understanding things? No. Iraq won't be any different.

:lol: I've wasted my time.

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[dvforumuser]

:lol: I've wasted my time.

The level of compelling support for some point of view that you offer us here is, alas, far too common on these forums.

[sandyf]

The acid test of a redenomination is dual pricing. You go to the butchers and a kilo of beef is either 15 thousand dinar or 15 dinar.

I went through Istanbul a few years back and bought a glass of beer. The barman said 20 million or 20 new ones. Not having either I paid by credit card, I think it came to about 6 pounds($10), didn't realise I had to pay for the glass.

It will work just fine as Iraqi's know all about different currencies. There is no problem with the 25000 dinar note being worth around $20 USD is there? Why not? As they are two different currencies. The new dinars will clearly be issued as a new currency, adding a 3rd one into the mix for a time. People that have managed to deal with Saddam's dinars, Swiss dinars, hyperinflation, and the 2003/2004 currency swap will have no problem with this. Did all the other redenominations have massive problems with the people not understanding things? No. Iraq won't be any different.

No = Wrong answer.

[Legolas]

Where in the CBI Law does it state what the equivalent amounts are? The currency unit is 1 Dinar. I ask you again, please show me in the CBI Law where it states 25 Dinar is equivalent to 25000 Dinar.

Or, how about you type something up, we'll mail it to Iraq and then they can make thousands of copies, and when the average Iraqi goes into the shops to buy something, they can pull out your letter give it to the shop keeper and the shop keeper will have to accept your word, that the 25 Dinar note in the customer's hand is worth the exact same amount as the 25000 Dinar note in the shop keeper's register. Yeah, that'll work...

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I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is regarding the laws. Changing or writing a new law takes only a lawyer to write it and the legislature to pass it. IF the G.O.I. decides to RD, they are going to have to change some laws. The same would be true if they were to RV. Why are we debating something so simple which occurs nearly every week? Legislatures are CONSTANTLY changing and re-writing laws. That's the "least" of our worries. Right now we have to hope that the government doesn't approve the CBI's plan to RD. The laws are irrelevant to the scenario. Whatever they decide to do, the laws will comply.

[Markinsa]

The level of compelling support for some point of view that you offer us here is, alas, far too common on these forums.

My support is the CBI Law. I've tried to explain to you that it will not support a redeeming value of 1000:1 without a change or new regulation stating as such. A second grader can tell you that one $20 Bill is not equavalent to one $100 Bill. I've asked HopefulTxn to show me in the CBI Law where it states that 25000 Dinar is equivalent to 25 Dinar, and of course he was unable to do so; now, I ask you to provide me with the same information.

Let's see who is not providing the compelling support.

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I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is regarding the laws. Changing or writing a new law takes only a lawyer to write it and the legislature to pass it. IF the G.O.I. decides to RD, they are going to have to change some laws. The same would be true if they were to RV. Why are we debating something so simple which occurs nearly every week? Legislatures are CONSTANTLY changing and re-writing laws. That's the "least" of our worries. Right now we have to hope that the government doesn't approve the CBI's plan to RD. The laws are irrelevant to the scenario. Whatever they decide to do, the laws will comply.

I dunno, I guess I went to far in trying to explain a simple legal concept, that they couldn't grasp. But laws are relevant to the scenario, because without a new Law/Regulation there will not be a 25,000 to 25 Dinar exchange.

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[caz1104]

The level of compelling support for some point of view that you offer us here is, alas, far too common on these forums.

As is your arragant one sided view,far too common in the basement (lop section)

[Legolas]

My support is the CBI Law. I've tried to explain to you that it will not support a redeeming value of 1000:1 without a change or new regulation stating as such. A second grader can tell you that one $20 Bill is not equavalent to one $100 Bill. I've asked HopefulTxn to show me in the CBI Law where it states that 25000 Dinar is equivalent to 25 Dinar, and of course he was unable to do so; now, I ask you to provide me with the same information.

Let's see who is not providing the compelling support.

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I dunno, I guess I went to far in trying to explain a simple legal concept, that they couldn't grasp. But laws are relevant to the scenario, because without a new Law/Regulation there will not be a 25,000 to 25 Dinar exchange.

Agreed. There would be no action of any kind. Things would remain status quo.

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[dvforumuser]

My support is the CBI Law.

Except that the post of mine to which you responded "I have wasted my time" had nothing to do with the CBI law but was only about whether or not the Iraqi's will understand this process.

I've tried to explain to you that it will not support a redeeming value of 1000:1 without a change or new regulation stating as such. A second grader can tell you that one $20 Bill is not equavalent to one $100 Bill.

Of course trading a USD 20 for a USD 100 would be silly. Why is that? Because they are in the same currency, not different currencies. You keep dropping this key fact.

I've asked HopefulTxn to show me in the CBI Law where it states that 25000 Dinar is equivalent to 25 Dinar, and of course he was unable to do so; now, I ask you to provide me with the same information.

I'd say the phrase "equivalent amounts" does allow it, but why does it matter so much? As I said to you once before, "so what?" The parliament IS considering a bill on this issue, so maybe that does whatever is needed. Or maybe that is only to get "buy-in" and the CBI law stays the same. The key to the CBI law is also what it says in its (presumably) original Arabic not the english translations we have been using (where did those come from?).

The acid test of a redenomination is dual pricing. You go to the butchers and a kilo of beef is either 15 thousand dinar or 15 dinar.

I went through Istanbul a few years back and bought a glass of beer. The barman said 20 million or 20 new ones. Not having either I paid by credit card, I think it came to about 6 pounds($10), didn't realise I had to pay for the glass.

No = Wrong answer.

Please expand. Just saying "wrong answer" doesn't help much.

[jmw]

My support is the CBI Law. I've tried to explain to you that it will not support a redeeming value of 1000:1 without a change or new regulation stating as such. A second grader can tell you that one $20 Bill is not equavalent to one $100 Bill. I've asked HopefulTxn to show me in the CBI Law where it states that 25000 Dinar is equivalent to 25 Dinar, and of course he was unable to do so; now, I ask you to provide me with the same information.

Let's see who is not providing the compelling support.

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I dunno, I guess I went to far in trying to explain a simple legal concept, that they couldn't grasp. But laws are relevant to the scenario, because without a new Law/Regulation there will not be a 25,000 to 25 Dinar exchange.

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Perhaps you have seen this article that was posted today....it clearly outlines a redenomination and addresses your concern with a law allowing them tto print new currency...apperently it is okay as long as they can approve the way it looks.

Sources: Central Bank began printing Iraqi currency after deletion of zeros

• Tuesday, March 20, 2012 08:18

The sources indicated in comments summarized by / Baghdadiya News / "The central bank introduced a draft law to delete the zeros to the Chairman of the House of Representatives Osama Najafi, and ensure that everything about this great project which will start work by the process of offering the new currency for circulation early next year, and will continue to drive the replacement of three years.

"The House of Representatives has no objections to the project except the subject of graphics that will come within the designs, adding there are those favored by nature and one favored by Islamic history, stressing that the initial indications stating that everyone agreed on the historic monuments in Iraq.

http://translate.goo...J-AkAZHJAE.html

[Markinsa]

Except that the post of mine to which you responded "I have wasted my time" had nothing to do with the CBI law but was only about whether or not the Iraqi's will understand this process.

The CBI Law has been the central theme in every post I have made in this thread. Where have you been?

Of course trading a USD 20 for a USD 100 would be silly. Why is that? Because they are in the same currency, not different currencies. You keep dropping this key fact.

Ok let me rephrase what I said earlier, any 2nd grader can tell you that a 25 Dinar and a 25000 Dinar note are not equivalent amounts.

I'd say the phrase "equivalent amounts" does allow it, but why does it matter so much? As I said to you once before, "so what?" The parliament IS considering a bill on this issue, so maybe that does whatever is needed. Or maybe that is only to get "buy-in" and the CBI law stays the same. The key to the CBI law is also what it says in its (presumably) original Arabic not the english translations we have been using (where did those come from?).

Ding Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!!! That's what I have been trying to say this WHOLE thread! The CBI has to pass a law/regulation stating the terms of the redenomination, and what the redemption process is for the currency they are retiring and what the denominations are for the currency to be released.

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[HopefulTxn]

I'll take your response as that you couldn't find the answer to my question. Law is not your strong point? Tell ya what, I'll make a little note here, that when they do pass that law, I'll point it out to you, that this is what I was talking about.

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I have already answered your question a few times... The term equivalent amount allows for an exchange of varying amount, but same value... You seem to be stuck on the term having to mean 1:1, which is does in value but doesn't have to mean that in volume... It doesn't have the limitation of being 1:1 of face value like you seem to be assuming...

Since the CBI Law already allows for equivalent amounts to be exchanged, they would simply have to issue a regulation detailing the process to the public. But a regulation is not having to pass a new law to amend the current CBI Law.

If they perform an RD, there will be a law that will need to be passed through Parliament however... The CBI has authority of the banking industry in the country, but an RD would effect far mar areas and that would require Parliament's passage of a law to stipulate the procedure. It would effect the ISX, all written contracts, accounting and reporting practices, etc... These are areas outside the authority of the CBI and will require a law from Parliament to lay it out for the public...