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The Eagle

DO WE NEED AN LLC OR TRUST ACCOUNT?

26 posts in this topic

First, I am not an accountant or an attorney. My thoughts are the conclusion of a discussion with my tax attorney.

I asked "why do I need a trust?" His answer was (in my case) that it would be a waste of $$ and lead to significant additional taxes. He pointed out to me that most trusts benefit the attorney setting them up and not the trustee. He stated that the current MAX long-term rate was 15%. So if I lived in a tax-free state I should deposit my Dinar money directly into my savings account and be done with it. If I decide to put some money onto a trust or LLC I will face an income tax from MY OWN MONEY as i withdrew it from the trust or LLC! His advice to me was to forget about LLC's and Trusts (other than a charitable remainder trust) and use my savings to buy land and hard assets. (Stay in the Dollar until RE and Gold bottoms, then jump into both)

I'd appreciate comments from those who feel trusts are necessary. To me, paying 15% off the top and NOTHING MORE - EVER is the way to go. If you want to leave $$ to children on a metered basis then a trust might make sense. For me, I will cash in as much as I can as the Dinars become long term (to me) and simply deposit the cash. Our taxes have never been more favorable towards capital gains as they are today. Next year, who knows???

Also, DO NOT GIVE CASH TO SIBLINGS. Rather, give them the Dinars to cash out on their own. Otherwise, you will pay the cash-out tax, then the gift tax, and then they will pay the taxes all over again as they cash out. By the time you give each child $1 million the government will have 55% or more of it. I have given Dinars to my children along with a dated bill of sale. This way none of us will pay double taxes. If 10% is good enuf for Jesus then 15% should be plenty for Uncle Sam.

GO RV by Thursday
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I think you may want to take a look at some of the posts from ExecConsult on this tax issue. A good starting point is here.

http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/85159-dinar-investing-does-not-trigger-irs-personal-use-rules/

Then you may want to revisit with your tax attorney. Some of the points I've been reading have been pointing towards this being taxed as regular income - which is what my CPA is telling me. This is kind of a new area - so I think the IRS isn't even sure on what they are going to do.

IMO - I plan on paying it as personal income - (paying my state taxes first so I can write thos off my Fed taxes) then hope that the IRS comes back and says it is Capital Gains, and I will file a 1040X to get overpayment back. Not an elegent answer - but definitley a legal one. *lol*
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Hey Eagle,

I Loved your last line!! 10% for Jesus and 15% for Uncle Sam. 'Sept we will probably give a little more to several "Jesus" causes.

We are gonna cash ours out, pay the tax then give our kdis $13K per year from each of us as allowed by the IRS with no additional taxes. They really do not need more than that with their jobs so we are in hopes they will save most of it.

Anyway that is our plan. Then we will spend a lot on them for family vacations, etc. Hope to spend it all eventually on them and the grands so they will not have problems at our death!
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[quote name='The Eagle' date='04 October 2011 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1317760511' post='694291']
First, I am not an accountant or an attorney. My thoughts are the conclusion of a discussion with my tax attorney.

I asked "why do I need a trust?" His answer was (in my case) that it would be a waste of $$ and lead to significant additional taxes. He pointed out to me that most trusts benefit the attorney setting them up and not the trustee. He stated that the current MAX long-term rate was 15%. So if I lived in a tax-free state I should deposit my Dinar money directly into my savings account and be done with it. If I decide to put some money onto a trust or LLC I will face an income tax from MY OWN MONEY as i withdrew it from the trust or LLC! His advice to me was to forget about LLC's and Trusts (other than a charitable remainder trust) and use my savings to buy land and hard assets. (Stay in the Dollar until RE and Gold bottoms, then jump into both)

I'd appreciate comments from those who feel trusts are necessary. To me, paying 15% off the top and NOTHING MORE - EVER is the way to go. If you want to leave $$ to children on a metered basis then a trust might make sense. For me, I will cash in as much as I can as the Dinars become long term (to me) and simply deposit the cash. Our taxes have never been more favorable towards capital gains as they are today. Next year, who knows???

Also, DO NOT GIVE CASH TO SIBLINGS. Rather, give them the Dinars to cash out on their own. Otherwise, you will pay the cash-out tax, then the gift tax, and then they will pay the taxes all over again as they cash out. By the time you give each child $1 million the government will have 55% or more of it. I have given Dinars to my children along with a dated bill of sale. This way none of us will pay double taxes. If 10% is good enuf for Jesus then 15% should be plenty for Uncle Sam.

GO RV by Thursday
[/quote]

Thanks for the post - refreshing change of pace and not bad advice. As Tankdude said there are a number of ways to set up protection and most likely each one will come under IRS scrutiny. My take is that as long as the Dinar remains tradeable there is no reason to go 'all in' and cash everthing in. I'll like the idea of buying bullion with the Dinar. Pay your taxes as you go, keep a low profile, become debt free and help others.

+1 for you.
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Neither an LLC nor a Trust will help with this investment.

Just for discussion, let's say your LLC owns Dinar.

We have to accept the fact that most likely we will not be given years to change our Dinars after a significant change in value - other countries have given an average of 90 days to turn in old notes when the currency changes.

So, your LLC owns Dinar. The value goes up, but the LLC is forced to cash it in. At the end of the year, the profits are distributed to you and you pay the taxes as if there was never an LLC in place anyway.

So, why waste your money on an LLC?

I don't recommend it. And I've researched this subject to the tune of thousands of dollars spent on attorneys and other professionals.

There is a DIFFERENT method that actually solves this issue, but that's a VIP only subject.

If you're paying an attorney for advice, you're going to get up to $50 pretty quickly - there is literally thousands of dollars of professional advice in the VIP section. I've taken much of what I've learned and paid for, put it in pinned topics, and left it there for you to read in the VIP section.

:twocents:
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Adam has some very good strategies - and I am VIP and am looking into them. I'm not as heavily invested as some - and may not need as much protecion as some...but I definitely believe that the info in the VIP sections is worth the money!
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No matter what you do...you'll be taxed twice. A trust or LLC can lower your tax base or defer it while protecting it. You will only be taxed on what you take out.
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trust is merely to avoid inheritance taxes by your kids when you die.....an LLC is going to force you to be in some sort of profiting business because it is a corporation....maybe that is your plan maybe not....i have an s corp already and would cash in most of the dinar personally and pay my 15 or 35 % (which ever the govt charges) then throw some after tax money in the S corp to capitalize it to do whatever in the business world i want to do....just make sure your account you put most of your money in is interest bearing....you will have interest income to pay taxes on at the end of the year as well that way....the main decision is what do you want to do post RV.....retire??? No LLC needed for that.....protect your kids (may want to look at a trust then)....or spend it yourself...money market savings and checking account is all you need in that case...
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[quote name='The Eagle' date='04 October 2011 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1317760511' post='694291']
First, I am not an accountant or an attorney. My thoughts are the conclusion of a discussion with my tax attorney.

I asked "why do I need a trust?" His answer was (in my case) that it would be a waste of $$ and lead to significant additional taxes. He pointed out to me that most trusts benefit the attorney setting them up and not the trustee. He stated that the current MAX long-term rate was 15%. So if I lived in a tax-free state I should deposit my Dinar money directly into my savings account and be done with it. If I decide to put some money onto a trust or LLC I will face an income tax from MY OWN MONEY as i withdrew it from the trust or LLC! His advice to me was to forget about LLC's and Trusts (other than a charitable remainder trust) and use my savings to buy land and hard assets. (Stay in the Dollar until RE and Gold bottoms, then jump into both)

I'd appreciate comments from those who feel trusts are necessary. To me, paying 15% off the top and NOTHING MORE - EVER is the way to go. If you want to leave $$ to children on a metered basis then a trust might make sense. For me, I will cash in as much as I can as the Dinars become long term (to me) and simply deposit the cash. Our taxes have never been more favorable towards capital gains as they are today. Next year, who knows???

Also, DO NOT GIVE CASH TO SIBLINGS. Rather, give them the Dinars to cash out on their own. Otherwise, you will pay the cash-out tax, then the gift tax, and then they will pay the taxes all over again as they cash out. By the time you give each child $1 million the government will have 55% or more of it. I have given Dinars to my children along with a dated bill of sale. This way none of us will pay double taxes. If 10% is good enuf for Jesus then 15% should be plenty for Uncle Sam.

GO RV by Thursday
[/quote]
Hi Eagle,

My name is Mark. I am an attorney (estate planning attorney) and though I am not a CPA, I was at least once qualified to sit the exam and I work with taxation issues fairly regularly. (Please see my profile for an abbreviated professional disclaimer.) I am not telling you my qualifications for any other reason than to say that what I know about trusts, LLCs, and taxation might be worth thinking about.

I don't know your situation and would not tell you that your attorney is incorrect in regards to your situation, however, I'd strongly disagree with the statement, "most trusts benefit the attorney setting them up and not the trustee." (Trustee actually should be "beneficiary" in that sentence.) When I first started practice, I was told that I should find every little old lady I could and give her a free will. Why would I do that? Because then when the lady dies and my name is on the copy of the will, the children come to me to get the original and I get the probate case. I know of attorneys who regularly charge $50 to $80 for a will and then charge 7% on the probate case. If your house is worth $100,000, you are already at a $7,000 bill. Probate money is easy and plentiful. Attorneys who do trust work usually take a higher road. We help people stay out of probate. I also can not think of ANY typical scenario where haveing a trust would cause you to pay more in taxes. Typically if they effect taxes they are used to make the tax burden lighter.

As far as LLCs are concerned, either you misunderstood your attorney or he was just way off base. While what Adam says above is generally true (that LLCs and trusts will not save money on dinar investment income), they certainly should not cost you more in taxes either. Typically an LLC is taxed as though it was an interest bearing bank account. When you earn income in your bank account you pay taxes on it. No one cares if you take it out or not and now one will tax you differently based on whether or not you take the money out. You simply pay a tax on all the income. That is typically how an LLC is set up to be taxed as well. The only way to change that is to go to the IRS and ask to be taxed differently. The reasons for doing that are few and far between.

Your attorney said that 15% is the maximum you would have to pay. I said that too until I researched it to prove another attorney wrong. I had to eat humble pie. Any attorney or CPA is trained to see appreciated assets as a capital gains item. Only those who understand that currency exchanges work under different rules will challenge that notion. Most attorneys and CPAs who have studied this area that I have communicated with agree that you should expect to pay 35% ordinary income instead.

You said
[quote]
I'd appreciate comments from those who feel trusts are necessary
[/quote]
While I believe that any good estate plan starts with a Revocable Living Trust, Pour-over will, and powers of attorney, I don't think that any type of trust by itself is tthe best planning tool for a dinar investor. I think it would be good to set up two LLCs in Nevada or Wyoming and have a portion of each LLC owned by a Nevada Domestic Asset Protection Trust. I won't go into the structure now. Anyway, there are lots of different kinds of trusts and each is infinitely customizable to support certain goals. Beyond your basic estate planning with a revocable living trust (which I think anyone who can affort id should have) there are many uses for trusts. Whether or not you should have one or more depens on you, what you are doing, and waht you wish to accomplish.

you had another statement:
[quote]
you will pay the cash-out tax, then the gift tax, and then they will pay the taxes all over again as they cash out
[/quote]
This statement is off base. There are many ways to avoid the gift taxes and only one person will be charged income taxes and nay given income from a foreign currency exchange. I won't take the time to go into how it all works now, but I'd be happy to answer questions about it if anyone has any.

I hope that this has been helpful for someone. I'm sure it bring up some questions for some of you out there. I'd be happy to answer those questions as time permits.

Best of Blessings,
Mark
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[quote post='694291']

you will pay the cash-out tax, then the gift tax, and then they will pay the taxes all over again as they cash out.
[/quote]

[quote name='ExecConsult' date='07 October 2011 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1318015725' post='697432']
This statement is off base. There are many ways to avoid the gift taxes and only one person will be charged income taxes and nay given income from a foreign currency exchange. I won't take the time to go into how it all works now, but I'd be happy to answer questions about it if anyone has any.

I hope that this has been helpful for someone. I'm sure it bring up some questions for some of you out there. I'd be happy to answer those questions as time permits.

Best of Blessings,
Mark
[/quote]
[color="#2F4F4F"][size="3"][font="Verdana"]
This has inspired a few questions for me…

I plan on giving each of my nieces and nephews a cash gift after the dust settles and I've paid my taxes after the RV. The reason for the delay is due to not knowing the rate which will affect how much I am able to give.

I don't feel comfortable handing over a check since they are very young adults and was thinking of setting up trusts for each of them.

What might prevent me from doing this is the possibility of a double tax: I pay my taxes from my investment, and then pay again when I fund each trust.

Also, I would not want to be the trustee of the accounts preferring to have their parents in that role.

Would a Trust for gift purposes be a good fit for me?

I've been reading your post for quite a while and appreciate all that you have contributed.

Manhattan
[/font][/size][/color]
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[quote name='Manhattan' date='12 November 2011 - 09:26 AM' timestamp='1321111614' post='738000']
[color="#2F4F4F"][size="3"][font="Verdana"]
This has inspired a few questions for me…

I plan on giving each of my nieces and nephews a cash gift after the dust settles and I've paid my taxes after the RV. The reason for the delay is due to not knowing the rate which will affect how much I am able to give.

I don't feel comfortable handing over a check since they are very young adults and was thinking of setting up trusts for each of them.

What might prevent me from doing this is the possibility of a double tax: I pay my taxes from my investment, and then pay again when I fund each trust.

Also, I would not want to be the trustee of the accounts preferring to have their parents in that role.

Would a Trust for gift purposes be a good fit for me?

I've been reading your post for quite a while and appreciate all that you have contributed.

Manhattan
[/font][/size][/color]
[/quote]

How much cash are you thinking?

Also, what do you want them to do with that cash?

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[quote name='MrDinarman' date='12 November 2011 - 07:33 AM' timestamp='1321112012' post='738006']
[b]I WILL NOT pay any taxes on my Dinar, EVER! [/b][size="5"][/size]
[/quote]

then you will go to federal prison.
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[quote name='easyrider' date='12 November 2011 - 09:38 AM' timestamp='1321112293' post='738009']
then you will go to federal prison.
[/quote]

Fed prison would be a vacation Edited by MrDinarman
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[quote name='MrDinarman' date='12 November 2011 - 07:59 AM' timestamp='1321113572' post='738028']
Fed prison would be a vacation
[/quote]


yea right hahaha
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[quote name='Adam Montana' date='12 November 2011 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1321111875' post='738003']
How much cash are you thinking?

Also, what do you want them to do with that cash?
[/quote]
[color="#2F4F4F"][size="3"][font="Verdana"]
Thanks for the response.

The amount given each person would depend on the infamous cash-in rate of the Iraqi Dinar. And not knowing that, I don't have a number.

As far as what they do with the cash… I would prefer it be for anything that adds to building a foundation in their life - education, business ideals, real estate, etc. Their parents would be more than happy to police that for them, if necessary. ;)
[/font][/size][/color]
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[quote name='Manhattan' date='12 November 2011 - 09:26 AM' timestamp='1321111614' post='738000']
[color="#2F4F4F"][size="3"][font="Verdana"]
This has inspired a few questions for me…

I plan on giving each of my nieces and nephews a cash gift after the dust settles and I've paid my taxes after the RV. The reason for the delay is due to not knowing the rate which will affect how much I am able to give.

I don't feel comfortable handing over a check since they are very young adults and was thinking of setting up trusts for each of them.

What might prevent me from doing this is the possibility of a double tax: I pay my taxes from my investment, and then pay again when I fund each trust.

Also, I would not want to be the trustee of the accounts preferring to have their parents in that role.

Would a Trust for gift purposes be a good fit for me?

I've been reading your post for quite a while and appreciate all that you have contributed.

Manhattan
[/font][/size][/color]
[/quote]
Running on only 3 hours of sleep last night so apologies if this is not as clear as I would like.

There are two separate issues that need to be addressed here - 1) is the tax issue and 2) is protecting the assets from the potential immaturity of the people want to give it to (or benefit)

As far as the taxes are concerned, a lot of people are giving pre-RV because they can avoid any potential gift tax consequences. However, your reasons for waiting are valid and there are several ways to give what you want to nephews and nieces post-RV without ever having to pay any further taxes. What will work best for you will depend on your circumstances and the circumstances of each nephew and niece at the time. However, that is a completely different issue from the trust. The tax situation typically will be the same whether you give directly to an individual or give in trust for the individual's benefit.

As far as setting up a trust to place the money in to have some control over it so the nephew doesn't use the money to by the first Ferrari he can find; Great Plan!!! For the purpose of having some control over what the money is used for, how your beneficiaries get it, when they get it, and what stipulations you would like put in place to control it there are a few different options. Using an irrevocable gifting trust would certainly be the most common and is very effective. The simple fact of using a trust does NOT in and of itself cause any extra taxes.

Hope that was helpful.

Best of Blessings,
Mark
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Good thread, informative. thanks[img]http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]
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I plan on tithing plus to church. I was planning on just giving the dinar post RV, and assumed that because of where it is going that taxes would not be an issue, and let the church cash them in. Is there a better way to do this, and will there be tax issues? Thanks any guidance appreciated
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[quote name='ExecConsult' date='12 November 2011 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1321159425' post='738533']
Running on only 3 hours of sleep last night so apologies if this is not as clear as I would like.

There are two separate issues that need to be addressed here - 1) is the tax issue and 2) is protecting the assets from the potential immaturity of the people want to give it to (or benefit)

As far as the taxes are concerned, a lot of people are giving pre-RV because they can avoid any potential gift tax consequences. However, your reasons for waiting are valid and there are several ways to give what you want to nephews and nieces post-RV without ever having to pay any further taxes. What will work best for you will depend on your circumstances and the circumstances of each nephew and niece at the time. However, that is a completely different issue from the trust. The tax situation typically will be the same whether you give directly to an individual or give in trust for the individual's benefit.

As far as setting up a trust to place the money in to have some control over it so the nephew doesn't use the money to by the first Ferrari he can find; Great Plan!!! For the purpose of having some control over what the money is used for, how your beneficiaries get it, when they get it, and what stipulations you would like put in place to control it there are a few different options. Using an irrevocable gifting trust would certainly be the most common and is very effective. The simple fact of using a trust does NOT in and of itself cause any extra taxes.

Hope that was helpful.

Best of Blessings,
Mark
[/quote]
[color="#2F4F4F"][size="3"][font="Verdana"]
Thank you Mark, that was very helpful and much appreciated.
You are a true asset to the board.

All the best,
Manhattan[/font][/size][/color]
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[quote name='Manhattan' date='12 November 2011 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1321122559' post='738092']
[color="#2F4F4F"][size="3"][font="Verdana"]
Thanks for the response.

The amount given each person would depend on the infamous cash-in rate of the Iraqi Dinar. And not knowing that, I don't have a number.

As far as what they do with the cash… I would prefer it be for anything that adds to building a foundation in their life - education, business ideals, real estate, etc. Their parents would be more than happy to police that for them, if necessary. ;)
[/font][/size][/color]
[/quote]

Mark gave some good advice up above.

If you're simply looking to help them out, there are a few things that will be very beneficial to them - for example, an ESA (Education Savings Account) or 529. This type of fund allows you to put money into an investment account, the gains grow tax free, and can be spent on education needs with no further tax penalty. (More info here: [url="http://www.moneycrashers.com/the-difference-between-an-esa-and-a-529-college-savings-plan/"]http://www.moneycrashers.com/the-difference-between-an-esa-and-a-529-college-savings-plan/[/url])

Another thing you can consider is a life insurance policy with a cash value - the types of policy I am thinking of come with a smaller death benefit, but the gains grow (again) tax free. Then, you can "borrow" against the cash value at a future date with no tax penalty. (If you're able to stick 50k in some of these, you'll be able to pull out over 200k during retirement with no tax obligation, for example. If you can put in 200k, the cash value after 50 years can be STUNNING.)

There are quite a few things you can do, but one thing you should DEFINITELY do is speak to an attorney, a financial planner, and a CPA prior to making these moves. Don't let any one of them talk you into ANYTHING until you have discussed it with the other two! I've made some "mistakes" at the advice of my attorney that my CPA later explained to me why I should have done it the opposite way, and visa versa with the financial planner and the CPA.

If you want to start preparing now, we have some great resources in the VIP section. Most of them are at no additional charge, even! If you're interested in setting up a Trust, LLC, or even better - an IBC - we can help you there for much less than your local attorney or CPA will charge.

Best of luck!
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Adam, is the discount offer of 50% off Lifetime VIP still open to OSI members? Thanks for all you do! [img]http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img] Edited by AoK
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[quote name='AoK' date='13 November 2011 - 08:17 AM' timestamp='1321193843' post='738669']
Adam, is the discount offer of 50% off Lifetime VIP still open to OSI members? Thanks for all you do! [img]http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Yes, but please make sure you are posting in the correct forums in the future. This thread is in the general forum.


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[quote name='MrDinarman' date='12 November 2011 - 09:33 AM' timestamp='1321112012' post='738006']
[b]I WILL NOT pay any taxes on my Dinar, EVER! [/b][size="5"][/size]
[/quote]

Really? How do you plan to get away that? Keep us posted as to which Federal Prison your camping out in. :lol:

I plan to cash in, make an estimated tax payment of 35%, file my return and hope for a refund. I'm willing to pay my taxes. It's the price I pay to live in this country.

Peace all!

Ski
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[quote name='Adam Montana' date='14 November 2011 - 02:09 AM' timestamp='1321193352' post='738659']
Mark gave some good advice up above.

If you're simply looking to help them out, there are a few things that will be very beneficial to them - for example, an ESA (Education Savings Account) or 529. This type of fund allows you to put money into an investment account, the gains grow tax free, and can be spent on education needs with no further tax penalty. (More info here: [url="http://www.moneycrashers.com/the-difference-between-an-esa-and-a-529-college-savings-plan/"]http://www.moneycrashers.com/the-difference-between-an-esa-and-a-529-college-savings-plan/[/url])

Another thing you can consider is a life insurance policy with a cash value - the types of policy I am thinking of come with a smaller death benefit, but the gains grow (again) tax free. Then, you can "borrow" against the cash value at a future date with no tax penalty. (If you're able to stick 50k in some of these, you'll be able to pull out over 200k during retirement with no tax obligation, for example. If you can put in 200k, the cash value after 50 years can be STUNNING.)

There are quite a few things you can do, but one thing you should DEFINITELY do is speak to an attorney, a financial planner, and a CPA prior to making these moves. Don't let any one of them talk you into ANYTHING until you have discussed it with the other two! I've made some "mistakes" at the advice of my attorney that my CPA later explained to me why I should have done it the opposite way, and visa versa with the financial planner and the CPA.

If you want to start preparing now, we have some great resources in the VIP section. Most of them are at no additional charge, even! If you're interested in setting up a Trust, LLC, or even better - an IBC - we can help you there for much less than your local attorney or CPA will charge.

Best of luck!
[/quote]


DinarBot Note: Humans need to take advantage of ONE HOUR Free Consultation with Certified Accountant (CPA/CGA) as well as a TAX ATTORNEY. [size="5"]Prior to Exchange[/size]. Visit Both. Call A Head. A Smart One. Why take a chance. A Fool and his Money are soon Parted. A Smarty Pants and his Money are soon to Party. As you were. Go Humans. Edited by DinarBot
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