WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

[MrFnHappy]

Yes but an RD/LOP doesnt reduce the amount of currency....it just replaces it with a different bill without the zero's with the same value. That still isn't reducing the amount thats out there. If there are.....lets say 50 trillion dollars worth in circulation, then you are replacing that with 50 trillion dollars worth of currency with the zero's removed that has the same value.

Ok lets say i have fourty 25,000 dinar notes....then i get those replaced with fourty 25 dinar notes of the same value. Same amount of notes....40.....valued the same. How does that reduce the amount of currency? It doesnt.....so they would be taking one step forward and then one step back. Not going anywhere. I hope im making sense cause this scenerio doesn't change anything or benefit the country in anyway. Again im not trying to argue, just trying make sense of this.

Here's where you go wrong. 40 25k notes = 1mil dinar. 40 25 notes = 1k dinar. Circulation has been reduced, but the value in USD remains the same.

[ashtray]

Here's where you go wrong. 40 25k notes = 1mil dinar. 40 25 notes = 1k dinar. Circulation has been reduced, but the value in USD remains the same.

just think if the just rv 1dollar for 1diner.. and everyone runs to the bank in bagdad with their 25k notes and cashs them in for single dinar notes .. that will really get the amount of notes down .. huh .. ya instantly go from 1 note to 25 thousand notes .. and thats just for one 25k note ... theirs no way they are going to cut that to 25 dinars ... what would a trillion 25k notes look like if they all were cashed in for i dinar note .. 25 quadrillion notes ..thats alot of notes ..

what would you do if you had 7 trillion notes in circulation .. and you wanted to cut down the number of notes .. would you

A) rv and make every single 25k note into 25 thousand single notes

rd and make 25 single dinar notes out of every single 25k notes with no change in value

C) combo ....rv ..rd ... add coins...

it seems to be they are adding value .... redenominating .... and adding coins to me .. its a combo .. and it should all go down at the same time

Edited August 19, 2011 by ashtray

[estewart]

Until you can deprogram others to stop looking at a legal, documented financial procedure, and seeing a sex change without anesthesia, you just won't get much response.

The folks who put together the scam part of marketing the resale of Dinar had a good concept of the study of Semantics.

They also applied the Hegelian Principle to create a mindset that is so ingrained in the belief of something they instinctively know is unlikely that they can not only ignore reality, but feel it is negative to acknowledge the existence of a more logical outcome; one that has been telegraphed by the only faction authorized to change the value of the currency..

The ultimate appreciation of the Dinar is no scam.

Unfortunately, the MLM. Cottage industry of selling on spread, and utilizing commissioned sales people in the field part of the Dinar world is the reason that the Dinar is seen as a scam.

LOP is taking by force. It is right up there with Rape, Castration, Beheading, Body Mutilation.......

Fortunately, it has nothing to do with legitimate financial operations...

The connotation is so negative, that it has replaced the lexicon of the actual procedure; intentionally, to prevent the carney's "marks" from understanding the alternatives...

So, this is why all conversation of the announced plans of the CBI ends up in a forum section that is convenient to ignore.

Trust me, it wasn't moved there by mistake.

A realistic alternative; one that would show true integrity, as well as a desire to distance oneself from the dark side of Dinar ownership would be to rename the section "RD Talk".

But, we don't make the rules....

Would have given you +10 for that if it were possible.

There has always been a possibility of a "LOP" as we call it. Iraq can do whatever it wants to do with its money. The contingency is there but that is why this is a speculative investment. That should have been clear at the beginning. But with all the negative in this economy and the funk most of the dinar investor get in when they consider their financial straight, the presentation of a depleted hope further puts them in depression. Denial of the possibility of a LOP is their defense and it doesn't make any difference how logical and rationalistic the presentation. Yes, they need to hear it for their own preparation.

People are looking for hope and the RV presents a hope that they can be financially healed. Personally, I've read the arguments. I understand the possibilities. I just don't want to be bothered reading through the same old stuff and getting depressed. I prefer HOPE.

Gave you a +1 for most of your message. HOWEVER, unlike you, I prefer hard-edged Reality and Truth, rather than being comfy wrapped up in warm and cozy self-delusions.

[estewart]

Here's where you go wrong. 40 25k notes = 1mil dinar. 40 25 notes = 1k dinar. Circulation has been reduced, but the value in USD remains the same.

BINGO!

[estewart]

just think if the just rv 1dollar for 1diner.. and everyone runs to the bank in bagdad with their 25k notes and cashs them in for single dinar notes .. that will really get the amount of notes down .. huh .. ya instantly go from 1 note to 25 thousand notes .. and thats just for one 25k note ... theirs no way they are going to cut that to 25 dinars ... what would a trillion 25k notes look like if they all were cashed in for i dinar note .. 25 quadrillion notes ..thats alot of notes ..

what would you do if you had 7 trillion notes in circulation .. and you wanted to cut down the number of notes .. would you

A) rv and make every single 25k note into 25 thousand single notes

rd and make 25 single dinar notes out of every single 25k notes with no change in value

C) combo ....rv ..rd ... add coins...

it seems to be they are adding value .... redenominating .... and adding coins to me .. its a combo .. and it should all go down at the same time

The "number of notes" in circulation is not important. What they all add up to is.

[WILLB]

why are you all writing so tiny

Will

[oatman_230]

Here's where you go wrong. 40 25k notes = 1mil dinar. 40 25 notes = 1k dinar. Circulation has been reduced, but the value in USD remains the same.

OK let me see if i got you right....apply this concept to the U.S.Stock Market.....lets say Google thinks it has too many shares out there and decides to move the decimal space to the left one space. But tells everyone "Dont worry, each individual stock that you still hold will stay the same in value." They do this without warning and change it overnight. Now being that investors make their money on how much the stock rises AND how many shares one holds.....I would think that Google just cheated everyone. Especially if each share went up drastically shortly there after. I'm sorry but they would be sued three ways from sunday. Even tho the value of each share remains the same, they just felt the need to reduce the amount in circulation....oh and then raised the value after the fact.

The lawyers would have a field day with this. The defense teams would say "Look at Turkey and other places that have done it......so why can't we do it too?" The prosecutor would say "Judge, Google knew that they would raise the value of each share, so to prevent from having to pay out more money to the shareholders they RD'd the number of stocks so that now someone holding 1,000,00 shares now only holds 1,000. In doing this they have saved themselves from paying out millions and potentially billions of dollars to the shareholders, in affect "stealing" what was not rightfully theirs." Just to make is simple, lets say Google was only worth $1 and after all of this, it went to $2. So now instead of paying out $1,000,000 they only have to pay out $1,000 for every million shares held. Please tell me how this makes ANY sense.

Does the stock market do this when they know they are going to jump in value by a large margin? Of course not.....it was just an example.....but if they did, there would be no end to the lawsuits. IMO they would go bankrupt and no one would ever do business with them again, and all the headline would talk about how Google tried to cheat billions out of the american people. I think everyone would agree that you would not see this happen and would be a preposterous idea. But that is what people are trying to say is going to happen with the Dinar? Im sorry but that still doesnt make any sense....and furthermore to try and say that Gov. and large institutions will get a better rate than the little guy is absurd. If Iraq wants to play ball with the rest of the world then they would have follow suit like the rest of the world. When the U.S. removed the $1000 bills, you received ten $100 bills. They didn't hand you one single $100 bill in return and say "Good doing business with you little folk" and then give big business a straight exchange! That would have ended up in another civil war. But it was a straight exchange for everyone. So if someone can please explain this in a common sense way, then i would love to hear it.

[Dalite]

The link below will answer all of the questions you may have

Fundamentals of Currency Redenomination

It explains the total process in which countries around the world have rebalanced their economies after overcoming hyperinflation and maintaining low levels to indicate the economy is stable enough to benefit.

The popular pumper lie tries to make you believe this is done during periods of hyperinflation.

Any Central Bank Governor that RDs during hyperinflation would be dumb enough to be employed as a dinar pumper.

They lie about this to keep you from learning about the possibilities.

Read the PDF, so the next time one of them lies to you, you will know better.

OK let me see if i got you right....apply this concept to the U.S.Stock Market.....lets say Google thinks it has too many shares out there and decides to move the decimal space to the left one space. But tells everyone "Dont worry, each individual stock that you still hold will stay the same in value." They do this without warning and change it overnight. Now being that investors make their money on how much the stock rises AND how many shares one holds.....I would think that Google just cheated everyone. Especially if each share went up drastically shortly there after. I'm sorry but they would be sued three ways from sunday. Even tho the value of each share remains the same, they just felt the need to reduce the amount in circulation....oh and then raised the value after the fact.

The lawyers would have a field day with this. The defense teams would say "Look at Turkey and other places that have done it......so why can't we do it too?" The prosecutor would say "Judge, Google knew that they would raise the value of each share, so to prevent from having to pay out more money to the shareholders they RD'd the number of stocks so that now someone holding 1,000,00 shares now only holds 1,000. In doing this they have saved themselves from paying out millions and potentially billions of dollars to the shareholders, in affect "stealing" what was not rightfully theirs." Just to make is simple, lets say Google was only worth $1 and after all of this, it went to $2. So now instead of paying out $1,000,000 they only have to pay out $1,000 for every million shares held. Please tell me how this makes ANY sense.

Does the stock market do this when they know they are going to jump in value by a large margin? Of course not.....it was just an example.....but if they did, there would be no end to the lawsuits. IMO they would go bankrupt and no one would ever do business with them again, and all the headline would talk about how Google tried to cheat billions out of the american people. I think everyone would agree that you would not see this happen and would be a preposterous idea. But that is what people are trying to say is going to happen with the Dinar? Im sorry but that still doesnt make any sense....and furthermore to try and say that Gov. and large institutions will get a better rate than the little guy is absurd. If Iraq wants to play ball with the rest of the world then they would have follow suit like the rest of the world. When the U.S. removed the $1000 bills, you received ten $100 bills. They didn't hand you one single $100 bill in return and say "Good doing business with you little folk" and then give big business a straight exchange! That would have ended up in another civil war. But it was a straight exchange for everyone. So if someone can please explain this in a common sense way, then i would love to hear it.

[keepmwlknfny]

OK let me see if i got you right....apply this concept to the U.S.Stock Market.....lets say Google thinks it has too many shares out there and decides to move the decimal space to the left one space. But tells everyone "Dont worry, each individual stock that you still hold will stay the same in value." They do this without warning and change it overnight. Now being that investors make their money on how much the stock rises AND how many shares one holds.....I would think that Google just cheated everyone. Especially if each share went up drastically shortly there after. I'm sorry but they would be sued three ways from sunday. Even tho the value of each share remains the same, they just felt the need to reduce the amount in circulation....oh and then raised the value after the fact.

The lawyers would have a field day with this. The defense teams would say "Look at Turkey and other places that have done it......so why can't we do it too?" The prosecutor would say "Judge, Google knew that they would raise the value of each share, so to prevent from having to pay out more money to the shareholders they RD'd the number of stocks so that now someone holding 1,000,00 shares now only holds 1,000. In doing this they have saved themselves from paying out millions and potentially billions of dollars to the shareholders, in affect "stealing" what was not rightfully theirs." Just to make is simple, lets say Google was only worth $1 and after all of this, it went to $2. So now instead of paying out $1,000,000 they only have to pay out $1,000 for every million shares held. Please tell me how this makes ANY sense.

Does the stock market do this when they know they are going to jump in value by a large margin? Of course not.....it was just an example.....but if they did, there would be no end to the lawsuits. IMO they would go bankrupt and no one would ever do business with them again, and all the headline would talk about how Google tried to cheat billions out of the american people. I think everyone would agree that you would not see this happen and would be a preposterous idea. But that is what people are trying to say is going to happen with the Dinar? Im sorry but that still doesnt make any sense....and furthermore to try and say that Gov. and large institutions will get a better rate than the little guy is absurd. If Iraq wants to play ball with the rest of the world then they would have follow suit like the rest of the world. When the U.S. removed the $1000 bills, you received ten $100 bills. They didn't hand you one single $100 bill in return and say "Good doing business with you little folk" and then give big business a straight exchange! That would have ended up in another civil war. But it was a straight exchange for everyone. So if someone can please explain this in a common sense way, then i would love to hear it.

Your making this more complicated and confusing then what it really is.....

You cannot compare this to stocks.....

Redenominations happen all the time but bottom line is that NO ONE loses money.....

Your 25k note is exchanged for 1 new 25 note, then after the exchange period is over, and the old currency is deemed worthless, the value of that new single 25 note is raised to be worth exactly what the old 25k note was......we are talking about exchange rate and its value to us.....to the iraqis, it simply means that there new 25 note can buy what the old 25k could....

[Nelg]

Like everyone else, I would very much like to believe that every $1,000 I spent on IQD is going to become $1-$3+ MILLION Dollars overnight. But until I hear a logical explanation of how it’s going to happen, and why the RD/RV doesn’t make a lot more sense, I no longer believe it’s possible, and if it IS, why won’t one of the so-called experts explain it? All we keep hearing is the tired line: “no lop, no lop, no lop.” But this scenario IS NOT A LOP, so they need a new line, and a new explanation. Most importantly, why do so many people get angry and throw negatives when we try to get that explanation? Inquiring minds want to know

Read more: http://dinarvets.com.../#ixzz1VR4KA3Xq

quote

At least some out there have reasonable expectations.

I was hoping for the get rich quick also but couldnt believe it for sure. Thats what everybody is doing on these sites. They are searching and trying to prove this impossible dream they have is true. In the back of their minds they really dont believe it or else they wouldnt be on here doing this all the time.

I have family that has been in this since the first troops came home from Iraq. Most of them hasnt been sucked in on the get rich quick thing but some have and thats what got me in it. After lot of research I see I was taken in by the pumpers. How on earth could Iraq buy a million Iraqi dinar back at $3,000,000 that they sold for way less than $1,000? Why would they if they could?

Iraq is not buy your dinar, the country you live in (U.S., Canada, N.Z) is buying your dinar. They will in turn negotiate the terms with Iraq to get their dinar. That could be goods and services plus $$. The country who purchases your dinar may keep a large portion of it in their treasury until they need it for future deals.

We get hung up on how Iraq is going to buy our dinar back. Let the governments work that out. Lot less stress and much more logical.

[Dalite]

Iraq is not buy your dinar, the country you live in (U.S., Canada, N.Z) is buying your dinar. They will in turn negotiate the terms with Iraq to get their dinar. That could be goods and services plus $$. The country who purchases your dinar may keep a large portion of it in their treasury until they need it for future deals.

We get hung up on how Iraq is going to buy our dinar back. Let the governments work that out. Lot less stress and much more logical.

The only thing with this pumper inspired forum fact is that Iraq has nothing that any country would need to hold reserves for.

They only produce oil, which must be purchased with dollars.

You have to produce goods and services, before you can sell goods and services.

Unless sand and camel spiders become the next Armani, there is absolutely zero, nada, zip reason for any nation to buy dinar that is revalued beyond the total of all the currency in the world...

We get hung up on these things, as there are distinct laws of nature and math.

You can't buy a house with bottle caps, and you can't convince the world to spend all the currency in print in the top 20 economies, then have to borrow twice as much more, to buy your currency.

This is what Shabibi is facing.

If he decided to RV/RI the dinar at it's present liability of 59 trillion, he would need over 180 trillion dollars to back the move....

I hope the numbers aren't correct, but they would have to be at least 26,941,000,000,000 over estimated in order for the reserves to be there to back the move.

[YorkiePower]

can adam comment on this

[oatman_230]

OK I have always understood "How" the RD works....im just trying to understand why they would go that route. I used the stock market as an example to show how that would be considered cheating the people here in the U.S. but would be considered ok over there. Pretty much the way our currency works is going to be how theirs works.....i got that......but why then did the U.S. give you ten $100 in exchange for the $1000 bill when they did their RD of just 1 zero, but over there they are suppose to give you $1 back for a $1000? If they are wanting to get rid of all the currency with 3 zero's then why not do what the U.S. did with the $1000 bill? Give you ten $100 and take the $1000 bill out of circulation, and do the same for all of the larger bills.

[Dalite]

OK I have always understood "How" the RD works....im just trying to understand why they would go that route. I used the stock market as an example to show how that would be considered cheating the people here in the U.S. but would be considered ok over there. Pretty much the way our currency works is going to be how theirs works.....i got that......but why then did the U.S. give you ten $100 in exchange for the $1000 bill when they did their RD of just 1 zero, but over there they are suppose to give you $1 back for a $1000? If they are wanting to get rid of all the currency with 3 zero's then why not do what the U.S. did with the $1000 bill? Give you ten $100 and take the $1000 bill out of circulation, and do the same for all of the larger bills.

The $1000.00 bill was not printed to off set inflation.

A $1000.00 bill is still redeemable at a bank today, which would be foolish to do, as it carries a premium as a collectable.

In Iraq, 1000 dinar is worth $.86.

If the zeros were dropped (divide by 1000), the resulting change in the exchange rate would make 1 dinar worth $.86.

The term removing the zeros just refers to the division process used to lessen the liability of a money supply that still carries the burden of past periods of high inflation.

All notes would be divided by 1000; not just the ones with 3 zeros.

Here is another link that talks about the process...

Dropping Zeros

[Darin]

Such an interesting debate......

A wise man invested in the IQD once told me, may people who argued the R/D scenario only view the surface and do not dig more in-depth. Understanding what is beneath the numbers plays a 'huge' factor on how this could play out.

Lets consider the M1/M2 figures.... Okay, so we see #s as high as 60T. But what is considered a true liability? I reccomend you guys read the recent chat log from B.I.W. This guy is pretty smart in my opinion, as he has researched in depth and has links to reference for basically anything he says. He ignores the basic articles we read plastered in the news section everyday as he thinks their not entirely correct, or biased.

If you read the yearly bulletins from the CBI website, you can find the section in the PDF file that shows how much currency is issued each year. BIW found that it was roughly 3T each year printed. He also found out roughly the amount printed initially at 6.38T, as 2T was allocated for reserves.

Now, if your printing 3T every year, your printing a large sum of hard-currency... Yes, that would expand your $$ supply, but, what is the sole purpose was to also exchange 1:1 for worn out note. A very high % of currency is handled by hand over there. Used for exchange, hidden under mattresses, savings buried in the sand, and is exposed to extreme environments. Long-story short, the life expectancy is not very high per note. So, the soiled bills are exchanged, but not destroyed. Drox argues that they do not destroy the bills, because that destroys weatlh. So I'll use his logic here that the soiled bills are locked up in a vault and being accounted for. This is likely what has caused the monetary base #s to increase.

On a side note, I don't have the link handy, but monetary base are accounted for differently from region to region. I recall someone arguing that, and they said that they follow a standard for economical purposes. Not the case, each bank has their own policies when valuing their monetary base figures. In 2007, the FED stopped reporting the M3 base... Another interesting tidbit, as many are curious as to 'why'.

So, what is truly in circulation? Who knows, but, the #s we believe may not be the #s of reality. But, the processes they have been using sure keep the rates pegged, don't they? Well, they likely have sterilizatoin, or stabilization funds to help maintain the rates. These funds are not accounted for in foreign cash reserves, but, can be liquid and easily transferred. the UAE would increase their rank in foreign cash reserves substantially if they were to include these funds. I think I recall, from a wikipedia source they would be #2 as they have a trillion dollar developmental fund (stabilization fund).

So, if you look more in-depth, we see that the GOI receives their revenues and their expenditures are less than their revenues. But each year, when accounting for doing their budget, they claim a deficit. Where are the profits going? Maybe... A stabilization fund?? Maybe that is where the DFI funds were also transferred to, and why the CBI reports do not indicate them. I'm only speculating possibilities w/ the DFI funds, but, even if it was a checking account per say and did not total 250$billion, where did any of those funds even go to? They have to be accounted for somewhere.

So, if the liability of what is in circulation is greatly reduced than what we speculate, that is a good thing... So, some people may argue, why are they holding excess liabilities, such as domestic cash in reserves. Well, they may be doing this to help maintain low inflation & and a stable exchange rate. To allow proper growth of the economy. I posted a link within another topic that shows the GDP projectsoin from 2005-2015.

From 2005-2010, the rate was a gradual rise, however, the growth rate from 2010-2015 was quite substantial. More like a rocket taking off... And I am sure this was done, and accounted for, without the consideration of a LOP or R/V.

People argue that the exporting of crude is owned by the people. In other words, the citizens own the oil, or should benefit. There fore, the constiution holds validity as the idea of selling IQD for Barrels of crude is likely out the window. But, people are stuck on thinking that this is the only thing of "value" that the nation has to export. On Sept. 10th, or 15th, I don't recall which date, but, a recent 7-year study was completed on natural resources and they are about to have a bid/auction on those assets, or extraction rights. This may include, precious metals, important minerals, and or things like sulfur crops.

So, upon the move from Article XIV to Article VIII by the IMF standards, which means monetizing the non-liquid assets.. And, yes, that article does mean that, but it does not clearly state that. I have had someone argue in the past that was not the case as it didn't clearly state it, but you have to read it and comprehend it. (In other words, not hit Ctrl+F and search 'monetize' or other key words)... The non-liquid assets could back the value of the currency. So, all currency held outside of the nation would likely be held by treasuries upon exchange, and used for those hard assets, or futures. (Not used for purchase of crude...)...

This reduces the liabilities of liquid cash it would have to forfeit significantly by the exchange of incoming IQD. Try to think of the bigger picture, as this act would allow for great prosperity within that region to grow significantly. Growing significantly would be great for the global economy... The growth in that region would help supply the future demand for crude from the U.S. & China... I read recently they are approachign 3 million bbl/day... Quite the progress... interesting to note, they can't increase too quickly, or the market drops its value & you essentially produce twice the amount for the same pay.

So, another argument is that many people who think it will LOP say that R/Ds are done during periods of stabilized inflation after periods of high inflation. If we look at the inflation graphs, from Turkey for example, they dropped below 10% in 2004. 2004 they also did their R/D (lop) and it has maintained that 10% or less since. Iraq, has maintained low inflation for the most part with a spike in 2005/2006, but reached a low level in 2007... (5% or so) and has continued to maintain that inflation rate. So, we are approaching nearly 5 years of low inflation rates while Turkey lopped as soon as they broke below the 10%. Interesting, as you would think that is basically 4 years they could have done this lop...

I'm not claiming they won't LOP. My opinion is that they likely won't, but I could easily be wrong. But, I do still check all LOP articles because I want to look for certain things. Turkey came out with an official document in Oct, abouts of the year. Clearly explaining how the process would take place, and what would be effected. The first of the year (year following) they implemented the project. So, I look for that type of "official document" and also a new currency symbol to basically show me that they'll be running two separate exchange rates. Also, if they were truly toying with the LOP idea, I would also expect to see currency specimens online prior to the release. We've seen articles that made it appear or seem as if the release of new currency was rather (near or imminent).

So, imho, we won't wake up to a LOP one day as like we perceive how we will wake up to a R/V. We will clearly start reading indicators (other than the media articles) of the process. It may start with specimens of the lower denominations... Maybe the introduction, or information regarding two separate exchanges. Until than, I remain hopeful that this will be a positive experience.

[HopefulTxn]

OK I have always understood "How" the RD works....im just trying to understand why they would go that route. I used the stock market as an example to show how that would be considered cheating the people here in the U.S. but would be considered ok over there. Pretty much the way our currency works is going to be how theirs works.....i got that......but why then did the U.S. give you ten $100 in exchange for the $1000 bill when they did their RD of just 1 zero, but over there they are suppose to give you $1 back for a $1000? If they are wanting to get rid of all the currency with 3 zero's then why not do what the U.S. did with the $1000 bill? Give you ten $100 and take the $1000 bill out of circulation, and do the same for all of the larger bills.

Actually, the stock market has their own variation of this same process, it's called a reverse stock split.

What the CBI is talking about doing is essentially the same thing, just from different causes.

In regards to what the US did, the US wasn't performing an action to reduce the volume of their monetary supply by removing the high value notes from circulation. I have heard and read different theories on why this move was made. The two that came up most often were that the notes simply didn't have the use that they once did with the advances in banking and banking communications, and the other was that the US government didn't like the idea of just anyone being able to walk around with millions of dollars in a small briefcase.

Iraq is trying to reduce their monetary size due to its enormous size due to a couple of decades of high/hyper inflation. You simply cannot reduce the volume from trillions back to billions in a 1:1 exchange.

Nobody that is holding dinar for an investment wants that to happen, but it is the most likely course of action for the CBI to take considering the culmination of all their statements, as well as many statements that directly stated redenomination while comparing to Turkey, or giving examples of 25,000 dinar would hold the same value as 25 dinar.

[oatman_230]

Dalite-thanks for the posts and additional links. I see now the difference in the U.S. removing the $1000 vs. the dinar. Different set of circumstances.

Darin-great info +1 dude

The only difference I see between all the other countries that LOP/RD their currency and Iraq is that Iraq was invaded and forced to change the value of the currency to next to nothing....the other countries can not claim that excuse. They declined over time for whatever reason and then once stable again LOP/RD their currency to help off-set things. Again this was not the case for Iraq. Yes due to the war everything has to be rebuilt and made anew but it was not because they fell so far behind and pretty much "let themselves go". I may be wrong by saying this but its comparing apples to oranges with the countries and the decline of their currency. Its like comparing 2 brothers that inherit their fathers estate and one goes and blows all of his money and the other gets robbed of his. The end result is the same but they got there by totally different means. I hope that makes sense. Other countries became worthless because of bad decisions and Iraq became worthless because of invasion.

In my mind that plays a key factor in how they return their "inheritance" back to the country. I just do see how the LOP/RD would be a great benefit for Iraq when a RV would return them to "Their former glory" as Shabibi stated. If i was the second brother that got robbed and had the opportunity to get my "inheritance" back.....i wouldn't change up the way i would receive it, I would want it to be same as it was before.

Again, thanks for everyone's response and 2 cents worth.

ADAM....you can still jump in anytime bud. I think we would all like to hear your opinion on this revived topic.

[Darin]

It should be noted, that a reverse-stock split process used in the stock market is to prevent being delisted from the market.

The comparisson is a great example, but the reasoning(s) are quite different...

As an investor, if I saw a company I was invested in, do a reverse-stock split, I would likely sell after that... I would hope to ride the value up in the stock market, as it increases the potential % wise of a ROI.

Jumping the value up to a given point, while reducing the # of shares you have equally, is a revenue-neutral event. Low stock #s may seem more appealing, but a substantial jump (in a neutral-revenue) event would likely make many feel like cutting their losses & selling. But that is just how I would view that scenario.

I compare the same scenario to the IQD. If they were to do a 1000:1 lop, the ROI % is reduced dramatically. It would not appear as quite the long-term investment opportunity... They would likely not reach above the $3 mark even upon a R/V. I would likely predict they would stabilize around $1.50 - $2.00 or so (& that would be over time).

So, what would many speculators do? Sell.... And, the CBI would have to be prepared to have liquidity available to pay out to all those foreign IQDs coming in... Which would impact their foreign cash reserves. Foreign cash reserves generally remain stable and cover 3 months of imports or 3 months of liabilities (rule of thumb). So, if their liquidity is damaged, they may not be able to pay for imports or liabilites successfully. Not good for the market.

If the CBI were to LOP, they would have to have a plan in place to prevent a substantial disruption of their reserves. Would they, close the borders, immediately print & release new denominations and demand eveyrone exchange prior to "X marks the date" and state the old denoms are worthless & say "Thanks for playing?" - Most likely not, that would be a kick to the gut and deter investor confidence. (maybe even boost terrorism in the region)...

Its hard to say what the face value is held by foreign speculators across the globe. I am sure the U.S. accounts for a majority, while M.E. regions have an abundance as well (Also some European regions included).

But what if.... 22-23T was outside the Country? Even @ 1000:1 LOP that would 19-20 Billion hit to the foreign reserves.

And it would likely come at them rather quickly as most people would believe that they have a time limit on exchange.

If they R/V at the front, that increases the hit... Which is another reason, I argue that they would R/V after the old denoms become invalid.

One reason why I like the idea as I find it also feasible that tresuries would hold the notes and use for goods, commodities, and so forth and exchange them over time.

So Iraq still exports their wealth, just not in a liquid form. I.e., minerals, precious metals, futures, etc.

Sometimes, this feels like a drama show that progresses slowly. Its some-what exciting to watch it play out, but stressful how the pace is slow.

[keepmwlknfny]

Dalite-thanks for the posts and additional links. I see now the difference in the U.S. removing the $1000 vs. the dinar. Different set of circumstances.

Darin-great info +1 dude

The only difference I see between all the other countries that LOP/RD their currency and Iraq is that Iraq was invaded and forced to change the value of the currency to next to nothing....the other countries can not claim that excuse. They declined over time for whatever reason and then once stable again LOP/RD their currency to help off-set things. Again this was not the case for Iraq. Yes due to the war everything has to be rebuilt and made anew but it was not because they fell so far behind and pretty much "let themselves go". I may be wrong by saying this but its comparing apples to oranges with the countries and the decline of their currency. Its like comparing 2 brothers that inherit their fathers estate and one goes and blows all of his money and the other gets robbed of his. The end result is the same but they got there by totally different means. I hope that makes sense. Other countries became worthless because of bad decisions and Iraq became worthless because of invasion.

In my mind that plays a key factor in how they return their "inheritance" back to the country. I just do see how the LOP/RD would be a great benefit for Iraq when a RV would return them to "Their former glory" as Shabibi stated. If i was the second brother that got robbed and had the opportunity to get my "inheritance" back.....i wouldn't change up the way i would receive it, I would want it to be same as it was before.

Again, thanks for everyone's response and 2 cents worth.

ADAM....you can still jump in anytime bud. I think we would all like to hear your opinion on this revived topic.

The only issue I see with you line of thinking is that iraq was not forced to change its value after we invaded.....the dinar started losing its value in the early 90s and was at 2000 to 1 at one point before we even step foot in iraq so the decline did happen over a long period of time just like the other countries.....

Darin,

Didn't we already go over the basis of what they actually base the M2 and other M numbers and it stated they don't include bills retrieved nor bills that haven't been released.....and that PDF also showed that they used similar numbers to what we do here in the us to make up those numbers....

[estewart]

Dalite-thanks for the posts and additional links. I see now the difference in the U.S. removing the $1000 vs. the dinar. Different set of circumstances.

Darin-great info +1 dude

The only difference I see between all the other countries that LOP/RD their currency and Iraq is that Iraq was invaded and forced to change the value of the currency to next to nothing....the other countries can not claim that excuse. They declined over time for whatever reason and then once stable again LOP/RD their currency to help off-set things. Again this was not the case for Iraq. Yes due to the war everything has to be rebuilt and made anew but it was not because they fell so far behind and pretty much "let themselves go". I may be wrong by saying this but its comparing apples to oranges with the countries and the decline of their currency. Its like comparing 2 brothers that inherit their fathers estate and one goes and blows all of his money and the other gets robbed of his. The end result is the same but they got there by totally different means. I hope that makes sense. Other countries became worthless because of bad decisions and Iraq became worthless because of invasion.

In my mind that plays a key factor in how they return their "inheritance" back to the country. I just do see how the LOP/RD would be a great benefit for Iraq when a RV would return them to "Their former glory" as Shabibi stated. If i was the second brother that got robbed and had the opportunity to get my "inheritance" back.....i wouldn't change up the way i would receive it, I would want it to be same as it was before.

Again, thanks for everyone's response and 2 cents worth.

ADAM....you can still jump in anytime bud. I think we would all like to hear your opinion on this revived topic.

Not exactly. In fact, altogether WRONG!

Saddam was operating a runaway printing press (Just like the FED is doing these days) and the exchange rate between the Dinar and the World's Reserve Currency, the USD, reached 4000 to one. That situation is known as hyper-inflation. And that is what made it necessary to add all the zeros. And what happened in Iraq everyone in the US will will get a much better understanding of in a few years as the more than 13 Trillion the private banking system known as the Federal Reserve has issued will cause the same situation to happen in the USA. Runaway hyper-inflation in the US of A is now inevitable. The same exact situation that occurred in Iraq will occur in the US too, and for the same reason.

On another note, in response to statements being made about how soiled notes are stored in vaults, no, that's also WRONG. Soiled or damaged notes get REPLACED, all the time, every day. Bright shiny crisp NEW notes are issued replacing the dirty or damaged old notes. The bad notes are THEN chopped up and burnt, destroyed. EVERY country in the world does this with their currency. No loss or increasement in the money supply occurs. No change. The minting of coins is a better deal as metal last vastly longer than paper does.

why are you all writing so tiny

Will

Sorry, Will. Was an accident.

Normally I increase my newly typed-in text response to a "3" and I decrease the shown text I am responding to down to a "1" in text size. Default size is a "2."

Somehow ALL the text in the editor got highlighted and I was not aware of it. So when I hit the "1" button, all the text got tinyfied. I will assure you, that reduction was NOT intended.

Edited August 19, 2011 by estewart

[oatman_230]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you think that they will RD the currency so that everyone will have to return all of the old currency for the new ones, and then after X amount of time then RV it? So that everyone would only make a few thousand dollars profit, if they chose to stay in the investment? I understand how it would be done and why but it just doesn't add up with the information we have received about all of the countries that have "forgiven Iraq' debt" or a large portion of it. I just don't see how all of those countries would be OK with loosing billions and trillions of dollars. Big governments and corporations are ALL about the money, which I think we would all agree on, and I don't see them supporting something like this. Everyone IMO....including other countries and governments.....chose to invest or forgive debt for the same reasons as us individuals. They know that this opportunity would be too good to pass up. Yes there are other options that Iraq could take and every investment is a risk, but with all the experts and big governments holding their hands and showing Iraq how and which way to turn, how would they be OK with a minimal return? Most governments are horrible at running programs designed to help their citizens, BUT they are experts and squeezing a dime out of a nickel and filling their own pockets! I think this is the only instance were we would step aside and "let that dog hunt" to get the straight RV. Again IMO the most profitable thing to do would be to straight RV at a low rate and let it gradually build up over time. That way it pays for itself with the reselling and spreads of the currency.

All of the other options do not make much sense to me except this one. I'm not trying to force my opinion here.....just find the best common sense result. In the end its all speculation, but knowing how governments operate and the greed factor that they have, this is the only option that I would see them chasing. Are they worried about all the people that would become millionaires? Of course not because that number is very small compared to the general public. Plus they will find the most effective way to tax those individuals-getting a dime out of a nickel. Plus most smaller investors will just go to a bank or somewhere in their respective country to cash in anyways....except those of us that have learned and continue to learn how to protect our investment. So that would just mean more money for the governments.

So i guess what I'm trying to say is that none of the other options would be profitable enough for the foreign countries of Iraq to accept. When it comes to government, money talks. If you don't believe me then just look and our country's political system. Whoever has the most money 9 times out of 10 wins the elections, whether it's a small time elected official like a mayor or the presidency.

Sorry, didn't mean for this to get so drawn out...other opinions now lol

[estewart]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you think that they will RD the currency so that everyone will have to return all of the old currency for the new ones, and then after X amount of time then RV it? So that everyone would only make a few thousand dollars profit, if they chose to stay in the investment? I understand how it would be done and why but it just doesn't add up with the information we have received about all of the countries that have "forgiven Iraq' debt" or a large portion of it. I just don't see how all of those countries would be OK with loosing billions and trillions of dollars. Big governments and corporations are ALL about the money, which I think we would all agree on, and I don't see them supporting something like this. Everyone IMO....including other countries and governments.....chose to invest or forgive debt for the same reasons as us individuals. They know that this opportunity would be too good to pass up. Yes there are other options that Iraq could take and every investment is a risk, but with all the experts and big governments holding their hands and showing Iraq how and which way to turn, how would they be OK with a minimal return? Most governments are horrible at running programs designed to help their citizens, BUT they are experts and squeezing a dime out of a nickel and filling their own pockets! I think this is the only instance were we would step aside and "let that dog hunt" to get the straight RV. Again IMO the most profitable thing to do would be to straight RV at a low rate and let it gradually build up over time. That way it pays for itself with the reselling and spreads of the currency.

All of the other options do not make much sense to me except this one. I'm not trying to force my opinion here.....just find the best common sense result. In the end its all speculation, but knowing how governments operate and the greed factor that they have, this is the only option that I would see them chasing. Are they worried about all the people that would become millionaires? Of course not because that number is very small compared to the general public. Plus they will find the most effective way to tax those individuals-getting a dime out of a nickel. Plus most smaller investors will just go to a bank or somewhere in their respective country to cash in anyways....except those of us that have learned and continue to learn how to protect our investment. So that would just mean more money for the governments.

So i guess what I'm trying to say is that none of the other options would be profitable enough for the foreign countries of Iraq to accept. When it comes to government, money talks. If you don't believe me then just look and our country's political system. Whoever has the most money 9 times out of 10 wins the elections, whether it's a small time elected official like a mayor or the presidency.

Sorry, didn't mean for this to get so drawn out...other opinions now lol

Iraq has said or warned, many times, that Iraq will be removing the extra three zeros now shown on its currency and issuing new money, too (and this will occur if the idea passes Parliament, and, yes., the current currency will be withdrawn, and made worthless, just as the SADDAM bills were) , but Iraq has said NOTHING about then doing an RV. WHERE did you get the idea an RV will then occur? Is that simply a presumption that Iraq would naturally do that? Or where did the idea come from?

Edited August 19, 2011 by estewart

[Darin]

The only issue I see with you line of thinking is that iraq was not forced to change its value after we invaded.....the dinar started losing its value in the early 90s and was at 2000 to 1 at one point before we even step foot in iraq so the decline did happen over a long period of time just like the other countries.....

Darin,

Didn't we already go over the basis of what they actually base the M2 and other M numbers and it stated they don't include bills retrieved nor bills that haven't been released.....and that PDF also showed that they used similar numbers to what we do here in the us to make up those numbers....

The basis of the statement I made that I was right - different regions, countries, areas, or whatever do use different monetary base systems. And I am not just speaking of how broad the system is per region, but more so on how they calculate each base.

As for the CBI - I thing we need to read more in-depth on how they really operate.

Enoch8 theorizes, not so publicly as he does not have proof that the Monetary bases are above and beyond liabilities accountd for. So in essense, high M1/M2 figures are a good thing & their valued in the present day exchange.

[oatman_230]

Iraq has said or warned, many times, that Iraq will be removing the extra three zeros now shown on its currency and issuing new money, too (and this will occur if the idea passes Parliament, and, yes., the current currency will be withdrawn, and made worthless, just as the SADDAM bills were) , but Iraq has said NOTHING about then doing an RV. WHERE did you get the idea an RV will then occur? Is that simply a presumption that Iraq would naturally do that? Or where did the idea come from?

I'm not saying that they have said that, I'm just considering all the options and then looking at what would be the best predicted route they would take. I do know that Shabibi has mentioned getting the currency back to "its former glory", but did not go into specifics on how. I agree that several time they mentioned removing 3 zero's but they have been stating that for around 2 years now. On top of that, you can go through all the articles coming out of Iraq and find many articles that state they are planning on doing something else or considering other options. This is where all the confusion comes from and why we are told to even take the news coming out of Iraq with a grain of salt because of the contradicting news articles that have been released. Just look at what our news has said about this investment and how they have gotten the information wrong. Stating that it's a scam and save your money.....invest in bonds or CD's. The investment itself is not a scam, but how it's promoted and having to deal with the possibility of receiving counterfeit currency is. They don't educate you on where the safest places to buy are and explain the concept so people realize its not a scam. No they misinform the public and redirect their attention somewhere else. This is done all over the world, and especially with everyone's eye focused on Iraq right now that has special interests in their economy, government, and currency......is it that hard to believe that the same is not done there as well?

I'm just saying that you can not take a few articles saying that they are going to LOP/RD the currency and say "here is the proof", because there are also articles that are out of Iraq stating the complete opposite. Anyone that diligently pays attention to the posts on this site has seen that. Hence all the confusion and questioning. I'm not trying to be rude so please to take it that way. This is just my observation from reading tons of post and articles from this site. There is talk and articles to back up almost every option Iraq has in regards to their currency all over this site.

So that is where i got the idea....not saying that is how its going to play out....I think we all know that there are 3 or 4 ways this investment could play out and they have been and will continue to be discussed until Iraq decides to go forward with whatever plan they decide on.

[estewart]

I'm not saying that they have said that, I'm just considering all the options and then looking at what would be the best predicted route they would take. I do know that Shabibi has mentioned getting the currency back to "its former glory", but did not go into specifics on how. I agree that several time they mentioned removing 3 zero's but they have been stating that for around 2 years now. On top of that, you can go through all the articles coming out of Iraq and find many articles that state they are planning on doing something else or considering other options. This is where all the confusion comes from and why we are told to even take the news coming out of Iraq with a grain of salt because of the contradicting news articles that have been released. Just look at what our news has said about this investment and how they have gotten the information wrong. Stating that it's a scam and save your money.....invest in bonds or CD's. The investment itself is not a scam, but how it's promoted and having to deal with the possibility of receiving counterfeit currency is. They don't educate you on where the safest places to buy are and explain the concept so people realize its not a scam. No they misinform the public and redirect their attention somewhere else. This is done all over the world, and especially with everyone's eye focused on Iraq right now that has special interests in their economy, government, and currency......is it that hard to believe that the same is not done there as well?

I'm just saying that you can not take a few articles saying that they are going to LOP/RD the currency and say "here is the proof", because there are also articles that are out of Iraq stating the complete opposite. Anyone that diligently pays attention to the posts on this site has seen that. Hence all the confusion and questioning. I'm not trying to be rude so please to take it that way. This is just my observation from reading tons of post and articles from this site. There is talk and articles to back up almost every option Iraq has in regards to their currency all over this site.

So that is where i got the idea....not saying that is how its going to play out....I think we all know that there are 3 or 4 ways this investment could play out and they have been and will continue to be discussed until Iraq decides to go forward with whatever plan they decide on.

Okay, that was all well put. BUT here is something else to consider. Iraq has more than once talked about an interest is getting the Dinar and the Dollar back in alignment with each other.

AND, after the removal of three zeros the USD and the Dinar will then be relatively close in value to each other. Like magic. THIS will make life a lot easier for Iraq, as all oil is traded in USDs. AND since the USD is also STILL the World's Reserve Currency it works out best for a Nation's currency to be near the value of the USD. Makes international trading easier. Mentally speaking.

NOW, if an RV occurred subsequent the removal of three zeros it would greatly displace the parity once again. HUGELY. And we have to ask ourselves, why would Iraq want to trash the parity once again? And we have to ask ourselves, also, why would Iraq even do an RV at all, then? What would be the point of it? What would be the purpose? Where is the advantage? Oh, sure, it would make us all really rich. But at the same time, it would make Iraq incredibly poorer.

However, if the Dinar joins the FOREX market once the Dinar proves itself as being stable and realistic in value in relation to rest of the world's currencies I would expect to see its value then progressively rise, while the USD crashes.