The Prophet Muhammad

[waterman13]

The Prophet, Muhammad

This information came from Alberto Rivera, former Jesuit priest after his conversion to Protestant Christianity. It is excerpted from "The Prophet," published by Chick Publications, PO Box 662, Chino CA 91708. Since its publication, after several unsuccessful attempts on his life, he died suddenly from food poisoning. His testimony should not be silenced. Dr. Rivera speaks to us still...

What I’m going to tell you is what I learned in secret briefings in the Vatican when I was a Jesuit priest, under oath and induction.

A Jesuit cardinal named Augustine Bea showed us how desperately the Roman Catholics wanted Jerusalem at the end of the third century. Because of its religious history and its strategic location, the Holy City was considered a priceless treasure. A scheme had to be developed to make Jerusalem a Roman Catholic city.

The great untapped source of manpower that could do this job was the children of Ishmael. The poor Arabs fell victim to one of the most clever plans ever devised by the powers of darkness.

Early Christians went everywhere with the gospel setting up small churches, but they met heavy opposition. Both the Jews and the Roman government persecuted the believers in Christ to stop their spread.

But the Jews rebelled against Rome, and in 70 AD, Roman armies under General Titus smashed Jerusalem and destroyed the great Jewish temple which was the heart of Jewish worship…in fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy in Matthew 24:2. On this holy placed today where the temple once stood, the Dome of the Rock Mosque stands as Islam’s second most holy place.

Sweeping changes were in the wind. Corruption, apathy, greed, cruelty, perversion and rebellion were eating at the Roman Empire, and it was ready to collapse. The persecution against Christians was useless as they continued to lay down their lives for the gospel of Christ.

The only way Satan could stop this thrust was to create a counterfeit "Christian" religion to destroy the work of God. The solution was in Rome. Their religion had come from ancient Babylon and all it needed was a face-lift. This didn’t happen overnight, but began in the writings of the "early church fathers."

It was through their writings that a new religion would take shape. The statue of Jupiter in Rome was eventually called St. Peter, and the statue of Venus was changed to the Virgin Mary. The site chosen for its headquarters was on one of the seven hills called "Vaticanus," the place of diving serpent where the Satanic temple of Janus stood.

The great counterfeit religion was Roman Catholicism, called "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth." Revelation 17:5. She was raised up to block the gospel, slaughter the believers in Christ, establish religions, create wars and make the nations drunk with the wine of her fornication as we will see.

Three major religions have one thing in common – each has a holy place where they look for guidance. Roman Catholicism looks to the Vatican as the Holy City. The Jews look to the wailing wall in Jerusalem, and the Muslims look to Mecca as their Holy City. Each group believes that they receive certain types of blessings for the rest of their lives for visiting their holy place.

In the beginning, Arab visitors would bring gifts to the "House of God," and the keepers of the Kaaba were gracious to all who came. Some brought their idols and, not wanting to offend these people, their idols were placed inside the sanctuary. It is said that the Jews looked upon the Kaaba as an outlying tabernacle of the Lord with veneration until it became polluted with idols.

In a tribal contention over a well (Zamzam) the treasure of the Kaaba and the offerings that pilgrims had given were dumped down the well and it was filled with sand – it disappeared. Many years later Adb Al-Muttalib was given visions telling him where to find the well and its treasure. He became the hero of Mecca, and he was destined to become the grandfather of Muhammad.

Before this time, Augustine became the bishop of North Africa and was effective in winning Arabs to Roman Catholicism, including whole tribes. It was among these Arab converts to Catholicism that the concept of looking for an Arab prophet developed.

Muhammad’s father died from illness and sons born to great Arab families in places like Mecca were sent into the desert to be suckled and weaned and spend some of their childhood with Bedouin tribes for training and to avoid the plagues in the cities. After his mother and grandfather also died, Muhammad was with his uncle when a Roman Catholic monk learned of his identity and said, "Take your brother’s son back to his country and guard him against the Jews, for by god, if they see him and know of him that which I know, they will construe evil against him. Great things are in store for this brother’s son of yours."

The Roman Catholic monk had fanned the flames for future Jewish persecutions at the hands of the followers of Muhammad. The Vatican desperately wanted Jerusalem because of its religious significance, but was blocked by the Jews.

Another problem was the true Christians in North Africa who preached the gospel. Roman Catholicism was growing in power, but would not tolerate opposition. Somehow the Vatican had to create a weapon to eliminate both the Jews and the true Christian believers who refused to accept Roman Catholicism. Lookng to North Africa, they saw the multitudes of Arabs as a source of manpower to do their dirty work.

Some Arabs had become Roman Catholic, and could be used in reporting information to leaders in Rome. Others were used in an underground spy network to carry out Rome’s master plan to control the great multitudes of Arabs who rejected Catholicism. When "St Augustine" appeared on the scene, he knew what was going on. His monasteries served as bases to seek out and destroy Bible manuscripts owned by the true Christians.

The Vatican wanted to create a messiah for the Arabs, someone they could raise up as a great leader, a man with charisma whom they could train, and eventually unite all the non-Catholic Arabs behind him, creating a mighty army that would ultimately capture Jerusalem for the pope. In the Vatican briefing, Cardinal Bea told us this story:

A wealthy Arabian lady who was a faithful follower of the pope played a tremendous part in this drama. She was a widow named Khadijah. She gave her wealth to the church and retired to a convent, but was given an assignment. She was to find a brilliant young man who could be used by the Vatican to create a new religion and become the messiah for the children of Ishmael. Khadijah had a cousin named Waraquah,, who was also a very faithful Roman Catholic and the Vatican placed him in a critical role as Muhammad’s advisor. He had tremendous influence on Muhammad.

Teachers were sent to young Muhammad and he had intensive training. Muhammad studied the works of St. Augustine which prepared him for his "great calling." The Vatican had Catholic Arabs across North Africa spread the story of a great one who was about to rise up among the people and be the chosen one of their God. While Muhammad was being prepared, he was told that his enemies were the Jews and that the only true Christians were Roman Catholic. He was taught that others calling themselves Christians were actually wicked impostors and should be destroyed. Many Muslims believe this.

Muhammad began receiving "divine revelations" and his wife’s Catholic cousin Waraquah helped interpret them. From this came the Koran. In the fifth year of Muhammad’s mission, persecution came against his followers because they refused to worship the idols in the Kaaba.

Muhammad instructed some of them to flee to Abysinnia where Negus, the Roman Catholic king accepted them because Muhammad’s views on the virgin Mary were so close to Roman Catholic doctrine. These Muslims received protection from Catholic kings because of Muhammad’s revelations.

Muhammad later conquered Mecca and the Kaaba was cleared of idols. History proves that before Islam came into existence, the Sabeans in Arabia worshiped the moon-god who was married to the sun-god. They gave birth to three goddesses who were worshipped throughout the Arab world as "Daughters of Allah" An idol excavated at Hazor in Palestine in 1950’s shows Allah sitting on a throne with the crescent moon on his chest.

Muhammad claimed he had a vision from Allah and was told, "You are the messenger of Allah." This began his career as a prophet and he received many messages. By the time Muhammad died, the religion of Islam was exploding. The nomadic Arab tribes were joining forces in the name of Allah and his prophet, Muhammad.

Some of Muhammad’s writings were placed in the Koran, others were never published. They are now in the hands of high ranking holy men (Ayatollahs) in the Islamic faith. When Cardinal Bea shared with us in the Vatican, he said, These writings are guarded because they contain information that links the Vatican to the creation of Islam.

Both sides have so much information on each other, that if exposed, it could create such a scandal that it would be a disaster for both religions.

In their "holy" book, the Koran, Christ is regarded as only a prophet. If the pope was His representative on earth, then he also must be a prophet of God. This caused the followers of Muhammad to fear and respect the pope as another "holy man."

The pope moved quickly and issued bulls granting the Arab generals permission to invade and conquer the nations of North Africa. The Vatican helped to finance the building of these massive Islamic armies in exchange for three favors:

1. Eliminate the Jews and Christians (true believers, which they called infidels).
2. Protect the Augustinian Monks and Roman Catholics.
3. Conquer Jerusalem for "His Holiness" in the Vatican.

As time went by, the power of Islam became tremendous…Jews and true Christians were slaughtered, and Jerusalem fell into their hands. Roman Catholics were never attacked, nor were their shrines, during this time. But when the pope asked for Jerusalem, he was surprised at their denial! The Arab generals had such military success that they could not be intimidated by the pope—nothing could stand in the way of their own plan.

Under Waraquah’s direction, Muhammad wrote that Abraham offered Ishmael as a sacrifice. The Bible says that Isaac was the sacrifice, but Muhammad removed Isaac’s name and inserted Ishmael’s name. As a result of this and Muhammad’s vision, the faithful Muslims built a mosque, the Dome of the Rock, in Ishmael’s honor on the site of the Jewish temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. This made Jerusalem the 2^nd most holy place in the Islam faith. How could they give such a sacred shrine to the pope without causing a revolt?

The pope realized what they had created was out of control when he heard they were calling "His Holiness" an infidel. The Muslim generals were determined to conquer the world for Allah and now they turned toward Europe. Islamic ambassadors approached the pope and asked for papal bulls to give them permission to invade European countries. The Vatican was outraged; war was inevitable. Temporal power and control of the world was considered the basic right of the pope. He wouldn’t think of sharing it with those whom he considered heathens.

The pope raised up his armies and called them crusades to hold back the children of Ishmael from grabbing Catholic Europe. The crusades lasted centuries and Jerusalem slipped out of the pope’s hands. Turkey fell and Spain and Portugal were invaded by Islamic forces. In Portugal, they called a mountain village "Fatima" in honor of Muhammad’s daughter, never dreaming it would become world famous.

Years later when the Muslim armies were poised on the islands of Sardinia and Corsica, to invade Italy, there was a serious problem. The Islamic generals realized they were too far extended. It was time for peace talks. One of the negotiators was Francis of Assisi. As a result, the Muslims were allowed to occupy Turkey in a "Christian" world, and the Catholics were allowed to occupy Lebanon in the Arab world. It was also agreed that the Muslims could build mosques in Catholic countries without interference as long as Roman Catholicism could flourish Arab countries.

Cardinal Bea told us in Vatican briefings that both the Muslims and Roman Catholics agreed to block and destroy the efforts of their common enemy, Bible-believing Christian missionaries. Through these concordats, Satan blocked the children of Ishmael from a knowledge of Scripture and the truth.

A light control was kept on Muslims from the Ayatollah down through the Islamic priests, nuns and monks. The Vatican also engineers a campaign of hatred between the Muslim Arabs and the Jews. Before this, they had co-existed peacefully. The Islamic community looks on the Bible-believing missionary as a devil who brings poison to the children of Allah. This explains years of ministry in those countries with little results.

The next plan was to control Islam. In 1910, Portugal was going Socialistic. Red flags were appearing and the Catholic Church was facing a major problem. Increasing numbers were against the church. The Jesuits wanted Russia involved, and the location of this vision at Fatima could play a key part in pulling Islam to the Mother Church. In 1917, the Virgin appeared in Fatima. "The Mother of God" was a smashing success, playing to overflow crowds. As a result, the Socialists of Portugal suffered a major defeat.

Roman Catholics world-wide began praying for the conversion of Russia and the Jesuits invented the Novenas to Fatima which they could perform throughout North Africa, spreading good public relations to the Muslim world. The Arabs thought they were honoring the daughter of Muhammad, which is what the Jesuits wanted them to believe.

As a result of the vision of Fatima, Pope Pius XII ordered his Nazi army to crush Russia and the Orthodox religion and make Russia Roman Catholic." A few years after he lost World war II, Pope Pius XII startled the world with his phoney dancing sun vision to keep Fatima in the news. It was great religious show biz and the world swallowed it. Not surprisingly, Pope Pius was the only one to see this vision.

As a result, a group of followers has grown into a Blue Army world-wide, totaling millions of faithful Roman Catholics ready to die for the blessed virgin. But we haven’t seen anything yet. The Jesuits have their Virgin Mary scheduled to appear four or five times in China, Russia, and major appearance in the U.S.

What has this got to do with Islam? Note Bishop Sheen’s statement:

"Our Lady’s appearances at Fatima marked the turning point in the history of the world’s 350 million Muslims. After the death of his daughter, Muhammad wrote that she "is the most holy of all women in Paradise, next to Mary." He believed that the Virgin Mary chose to be known as Our Lady of Fatima as a sign and a pledge that the Muslims who believe in Christ’s virgin birth, will come to believe in His divinity.

Bishop Sheen pointed out that the pilgrim virgin statues of Our Lady of Fatima were enthusiastically received by Muslims in Africa, India, and elsewhere, and that many Muslims are now coming into the Roman Catholic Church."

^{Double Cross, Chick Publ, pgs 13,14.
The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, Pickthall, Mentor Books, pgs 220,221;
Martin Lings, Muhammad, pgs 81-84.}

http://web.archive.org/web/20030111060616/http:/www.choosinglife.net/Islam.htm

 

[desimo]

Bottom line is that Momo was a perv as he married a child.  I believe she was 8 and had a child by her when she turned 15.

[dog53]

Hmmmmm so roman catholics are the bad christians and ::: I forgot which are the good ones?

and muslims are good ones if they denounce the mother of god ?

Ok im just so frickin confused .

               

 

Sorry  im really just so sorry 

But

Really?

[flatdawg]

OP, always remember, Islam considers your lord a prophet as well.

[waterman13]

Hmmmmm so roman catholics are the bad christians and ::: I forgot which are the good ones?

and muslims are good ones if they denounce the mother of god ?

Ok im just so frickin confused .

               

 

Sorry  im really just so sorry 

But

Really?

dog, have you ever studied the Roman Catholic Church? Really done an in depth study? This paper was written by an ex-Jesuit priest (the Jesuits are the heart of the Catholic Church) and he is stating what he learned in the church. That's why he left. The Jesuits are not good, do a study of them. Just put this out there for people to read and let God show them what is what. It is a world filled with deception, that is the enemy's m.o.

WM13

[dog53]

dog, have you ever studied the Roman Catholic Church? Really done an in depth study? This paper was written by an ex-Jesuit priest (the Jesuits are the heart of the Catholic Church) and he is stating what he learned in the church. That's why he left. The Jesuits are not good, do a study of them. Just put this out there for people to read and let God show them what is what. It is a world filled with deception, that is the enemy's m.o.

WM13

 

Actually my people in the past  have had  a very close relationship to the jesuit priest`s in this area.

We praised them highly and respected their courage in regards as to the way they burned in our fires.

As brave as any warrior. So what your saying as with any govt  religious or non religious their is always corruption at the top.

That does not mean that ALL jesuit priest`s are bad. To be burnt alive and to only profess a love for your god is truly divine. 

I did not read of other priest that were braving the wilderness dying in the cause of spreading the word of the new living god jesus .

I think these young men did not die in vain.

Many a savage was converted  

[Nelg]

Hmmmmm so roman catholics are the bad christians and ::: I forgot which are the good ones?

and muslims are good ones if they denounce the mother of god ?

Ok im just so frickin confused .

               

 

Sorry  im really just so sorry 

But

Really?

Let God be found and every man a liar.  In other words there is one source of truth, the Bible, which YOU can understand.  Don't give heed to anything else.

[ATHIM]

Nelg

There you are again. The Bible without the Church is the word without foundation and the Church without the Bible is a Church without a word. You are another fluffer!

 

Despite your statements, the work of the Holy Spirit started at Pentecost and continues to this day it did not stop and wait for the Protestants to misinterpret it and claim truth, truth. The Church has the truth and the Bible is a part of that truth and to deny the Church is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

How were the books of the Bible chosen, do some research and get back to me.  I think you will continue to disbelieve the truth.

[Orthophonic]

OP, always remember, Islam considers your lord a prophet as well.

Islam considers Jesus Christ a prophet, but not God made flesh. One of many deceptions by the creator of Islam, Satan. "Allah

Akhbar" doesn't mean "God is great", it means "God (Allah=Satan) is greater".

[waterman13]

Actually my people in the past  have had  a very close relationship to the jesuit priest`s in this area.

We praised them highly and respected their courage in regards as to the way they burned in our fires.

As brave as any warrior. So what your saying as with any govt  religious or non religious their is always corruption at the top.

That does not mean that ALL jesuit priest`s are bad. To be burnt alive and to only profess a love for your god is truly divine. 

I did not read of other priest that were braving the wilderness dying in the cause of spreading the word of the new living god jesus .

I think these young men did not die in vain.

Many a savage was converted  

agreed

WM13

Nelg

 

There you are again. The Bible without the Church is the word without foundation and the Church without the Bible is a Church without a word. You are another fluffer!

 

 

 

Despite your statements, the work of the Holy Spirit started at Pentecost and continues to this day it did not stop and wait for the Protestants to misinterpret it and claim truth, truth. The Church has the truth and the Bible is a part of that truth and to deny the Church is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

How were the books of the Bible chosen, do some research and get back to me.  I think you will continue to disbelieve the truth.

I am the church, the temple, the Word lives in me. Luke 11:35 Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness.

WM13

[Orthophonic]

Nelg

 

There you are again. The Bible without the Church is the word without foundation and the Church without the Bible is a Church without a word. You are another fluffer!

 

 

 

Despite your statements, the work of the Holy Spirit started at Pentecost and continues to this day it did not stop and wait for the Protestants to misinterpret it and claim truth, truth. The Church has the truth and the Bible is a part of that truth and to deny the Church is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

How were the books of the Bible chosen, do some research and get back to me.  I think you will continue to disbelieve the truth.

Protestants did not misinterpret the Holy Scriptures. Rather, they brought them to the masses in their own language. The Roman church for centuries tried to hide the Scripures from the people to perpetuate the blasphemous excesses of the papacy. Many, many true Christians were slaughtered (by the Roman church) for having copies of the Scriptures. For centuries, the Papacy, (rightfully so) was terrified that if the masses were able to actually read the Holy Scriptures they would see the abuses and abominations that the Roman church had perpetrated. 

[ATHIM]

Nelg, I am the church, the temple, the Word lives in me. Luke 11:35

 

Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness.

There are different types of light, including black-lights. The word of God is light and allows one to see and believe the mysteries of the Christ, therefore if you do not believe in the mysteries of Christ the light is not in you. But the mysteries of Christ are a mystery to the Protestants.

 

Orthophonic: Protestants did not misinterpret the Holy Scriptures.

Unfortunately the Protestants threw the baby out with the bath water and they DID misinterpret the scriptures and continue to this day, excluded from the New Testament because they, in their zeal to be autonomous from Rome, forsook the canons and teachings of the church and interpreted the word, according to their own measure of faith, being the product of a church that was already faltering. The fathers of Rome that led it to the schism in 1054 will be held accountable for their deeds, the Godless acts that followed and a church that has since changed original doctrines of faith.

 

Rome was scared of the masses having the scriptures and perhaps for good reason, look at the result! False Christ's everywhere preaching false doctrine that does not lead to salvation and the name of Jesus has been scandalized by the harlots of Satan, mixing truth with lies.

 

In the case of Rome, the church should of emphasized education rather than segregation.

[Nelg]

THIM, I just now saw your response to my post.  I have two Bible classes to teach on Wednesday, today, and I am in preparation for them.  I do not have the time until this evening to properly answer your response.  However I say that the statement I made was a quote from Paul's letter to the Romans.  It did express my sentiments.  I will trust God above all the statements of mankind.  What mankind writes may or may not be valid and true, but what God states IS the true.  

 

The other statement was by Waterman and not me.  However, he was correct.  The saint's body is the temple of God, as well as the church collectively.  Individually saints (Christians) make up the church of God.  

 

By the way, I am not a Protestant, Catholic, or Jew.  I am simply a Christian, saved by the blood of Christ.

[ATHIM]

Nelg. There is no such thing as, "simply a Christian". You have a belief system connected to what you believe about God, and as you put it, from scripture alone, a rediculous concept anyway, and if you understood how being saved by the blood of the lamb happens in real life, you would not be, "simply a Christian".

[Nelg]

Nelg. There is no such thing as, "simply a Christian". You have a belief system connected to what you believe about God, and as you put it, from scripture alone, a rediculous concept anyway, and if you understood how being saved by the blood of the lamb happens in real life, you would not be, "simply a Christian".

Funny that you should say that, for that IS what I am teaching tonight: Salvation through the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ.  Hummm.  I guess I need to study that a little more. 

 

Athim, you are making some statements about me and you know nothing of me.  You don't know what I believe, the way I think, nor what I do or do not know.  Before you make such statements you might consider thinking before writing.   

[dog53]

Nelg, I am the church, the temple, the Word lives in me. Luke 11:35

 

 

 

Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness.

 

There are different types of light, including black-lights. The word of God is light and allows one to see and believe the mysteries of the Christ, therefore if you do not believe in the mysteries of Christ the light is not in you. But the mysteries of Christ are a mystery to the Protestants.

 

 

 

Orthophonic: Protestants did not misinterpret the Holy Scriptures.

 

Unfortunately the Protestants threw the baby out with the bath water and they DID misinterpret the scriptures and continue to this day, excluded from the New Testament because they, in their zeal to be autonomous from Rome, forsook the canons and teachings of the church and interpreted the word, according to their own measure of faith, being the product of a church that was already faltering. The fathers of Rome that led it to the schism in 1054 will be held accountable for their deeds, the Godless acts that followed and a church that has since changed original doctrines of faith.

 

 

 

Rome was scared of the masses having the scriptures and perhaps for good reason, look at the result! False Christ's everywhere preaching false doctrine that does not lead to salvation and the name of Jesus has been scandalized by the harlots of Satan, mixing truth with lies.

 

 

 

In the case of Rome, the church should of emphasized education rather than segregation.

 

This is all according to your doctrine and like a thousand other religious fanatics only your way is the right way.

all others burn in hell

doesn't matter that you believe the living god gave his only begotten son to be slaughtered as the lamb for the sins of the world or you do your best to live your life in a righteous and decent manner. If you don't do it exactly the way YOUR doctrine demands well then your just screwed.

 

Wow  Nelg I would back away from this one.

No matter what you say aint gonna be good enough for this one.

He`s got all the answers and everyone but him is gonna burn but him.

 

Judge not lest ye be judge

I know its not very scholarly nor full of 20$ words but I have always like plain and simple

[Nelg]

This is all according to your doctrine and like a thousand other religious fanatics only your way is the right way.

all others burn in hell

doesn't matter that you believe the living god gave his only begotten son to be slaughtered as the lamb for the sins of the world or you do your best to live your life in a righteous and decent manner. If you don't do it exactly the way YOUR doctrine demands well then your just screwed.

 

Wow  Nelg I would back away from this one.

No matter what you say aint gonna be good enough for this one.

He`s got all the answers and everyone but him is gonna burn but him.

 

Judge not lest ye be judge

I know its not very scholarly nor full of 20$ words but I have always like plain and simple

Hey Dog.  I know what you mean.  As I was driving to class I was thinking the same thing; there will be no answer sufficient enough for those who have a "hardened mind."  And, with the way Athim started, by the time we have several post, there is no telling what he would say. Might be best if we didn't write anything, that way he wouldn't get in trouble with the Mod Squad.  

 

Hey Mods, you do a great job.  

[Thaiexpat]

Wow, a religious post that almost makes sense to me! hahahaha. Actually, I have heard this before from another Christian-that the Catholic Church is the Great ***** that is spoken about in Revelations. OK, so the BIG question is this: If the catholics are the "bad guys" (so to speak), why do so many Christians accept what they INVENTED to be true? In particular, the deity of Christ? The Trinity is NEVER found in either bible. It was invented as an article of faith by the early Catholics in 285 and 320 AD. Before that, TRUE Christians didn't accept this and, as the posts mention, they were hunted down and murdered. Basically, agree with all that was said here. Us Jews have heard this before also. Before, we were friends to the Arabic peoples, now look at us?!?! A true shame upon both groups.

[TexasGranny]

Hey Dog.  I know what you mean.  As I was driving to class I was thinking the same thing; there will be no answer sufficient enough for those who have a "hardened mind."  And, with the way Athim started, by the time we have several post, there is no telling what he would say. Might be best if we didn't write anything, that way he wouldn't get in trouble with the Mod Squad.  

 

Hey Mods, you do a great job.  

 

Watching......

 

 

[Maggie123]

God Is Love

[waterman13]

Truth comes through revelation from God, the Creator. Not from man's doctrines, or man's teachings. It only comes from the Spirit of God who speaks directly to His children.

WM13

[ATHIM]

This is all according to your doctrine and like a thousand other religious fanatics only your way is the right way. all others burn in hell

doesn't matter that you believe the living god gave his only begotten son to be slaughtered as the lamb for the sins of the world or you do your best to live your life in a righteous and decent manner. If you don't do it exactly the way YOUR doctrine demands well then your just screwed.

 

DOG 53: Only God will judge those who will burn and not burn in hell and may we all be counted worthy on that day. I guess I am to some extent fanatical about the Christ that I know and why He was incarnated because I love people and my desire is for them to come to a deeper and correct worship and relationship with God.  In regards to “it doesn’t matter what you believe” I must disagree, it absolutely matters what you believe, It is what separates Mormon’s, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Protestants Catholics and what I am an Orthodox Christian, it matters because if you do not know what the Apostles know then how can you claim sonship when the primary Ministry mission of our Lord was to establish the Church and the manor of worship and belief that He desired.  It's not my doctrine DOG, it is Christ's and the Apostles, they will judge you and me.

 

What is astounding to me is that the devil has taken the Eucharist as the center for worship and made it of no significance, reducing those who do not understand to spiritually lifeless, in the words of Christ, “If you do not eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no life in you.” My hearts desire is to be prepared to receive the Lord in a worthy manor; this is the simple but mysterious foundation of 2000 years of faith that I am a small part of.

 

Nelg: “Funny that you should say that, for that IS what I am teaching tonight: Salvation through the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ.  Hummm.  I guess I need to study that a little more.

And, with the way Athim started, by the time we have several post, there is no telling what he would say.”

By understanding the origin of Pasca, one can grasp the significance of the cross in relation to the Jews and the door that God opened for the gentiles. To look at the crucifixion though in isolation as the stand alone act of salvation is exclusionary. The mechanism of salvation is not a one time cover all event for those who follow Christ. We were saved when Jesus died on the cross, we are saved by accepting Jesus as Lord and savior and by a Trinitarian Baptism, we are being saved as we struggle daily with temptations and sin with the help of the Trinity and the saints, and we will be saved by completing our life in a repentant fashion. The purpose of the cross has been fulfilled and the door is open, but the way of destruction is broad and many will take that path. So how does one find the true path and what is the true path and does that path still exist today.

 

All of Jesus ministry is interconnected and culminates with the cross and resurrection. Jesus came to establish the Church and chose the 12 Apostles to accomplish its beginning, by the laying on of hands in Ordination, the Church has grown and still exists under the governance of the Holy Spirit starting at Pentecost, through the grace bestowed by Christ, with His living Apostles, Clergy, monastic’s, and the faithful laity who have laid down, and continue to lay down their lives as Christ did, for Christ so that His truth can to be upheld and glorified. Not as fanatic Muslims, killing and being killed, but as the sweet fragrance of sacrifice that burns in the heart of God.  

 

The body and blood of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, is and always will be the center of correct worship and faith for the Church militant. His sermon in the desert recounted in the Gospel of the Apostle John chapter 6, ties in with the last supper and the authority given to the Church to forgive sins in Jesus name and to administer His body and blood to the true believers. Sure the church put structure and Tradition to these authorities under the governance of the Holy Spirit, but if we do not believe in the Church and that the Holy Spirit rests in the saints, and that Holy God fearing Spirit filled men and women are built upon the rock of Christ, then what good does it do you having a bible that they wrote and complied anyway, or what good does it do you claiming to be a saint when your legacy is torn down by heresy. I am not angry with you or anyone else, I love people including many Protestants and Catholics but when you preach something other than what the Apostles held, they will judge you not me and you best know the truth before you strain the gnat and swallow the camel.

 

The Church will stand till the end and not one iota will change, the truth will be preached and those who truly seek Christ with humility, obedience and of course by the will of Christ, will find eternal life in this life and the next.

 

P. S. I love this stuff more than the Dinar I hold.

[waterman13]

There's a lot of interesting reading on this site:

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/

Creations Jubilee is a very good book, and many others, all free downloadable pdf's

WM13

[Nelg]

Athim, I made comments on you post.  I don't think that there is much disagreement.  There are some things that are matters of exegesis, but nothing major.  Most have already forgotten about this thread, but yesterday was a heavy study day for me.  When I teach the gospel, I always restudy to refresh and enhance my teaching materials.  So I did not get to respond as quickly as I would have liked.  Here is the material.

 

 

Only God will judge those who will burn and not burn in hell and may we all be counted worthy on that day. Our being worthy is totally dependent upon our trust in Christ and our faithfulness to Him.  How we live is tied to what we believe about Christ and the cross.  Judgment for sin will not take place for those Christians who are “in Christ,” which is another way of saying “the church.”  Yes, Christ is the only Judge in the last day.    

 

I guess I am to some extent fanatical about the Christ that I know and why He was incarnated because I love people and my desire is for them to come to a deeper and correct worship and relationship with God. I feel the same way.  The more I study and learn about Him, the more I love Him and desire to share Him with the world.  I love the look on the face of those who are studying with me, especially when I see and “ahaa” moment as it finally dawns on them what Christ has really done for them.  Their life takes a whole new turn. 

 

 In regards to “it doesn’t matter what you believe” I must disagree, it absolutely matters what you believe, It is what separates Mormon’s, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Protestants Catholics and what I am an Orthodox Christian, it matters because if you do not know what the Apostles know then how can you claim sonship when the primary Ministry mission of our Lord was to establish the Church and the manor of worship and belief that He desired.  It's not my doctrine DOG, it is Christ's and the Apostles, they will judge you and me. I could not agree with you more.  Doctrine, the teaching of Christ and the apostles, is what God wants us to understand.  (By doctrine I mean the teaching of God rather than the doctrine of men.) There is but one truth and that is found in what God reveals to us.  It is in the searching the Word that we discover what God want.  It is NOT in believing that “it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you are sincere.”  That is a false teaching propagated by human religion to justify anything one wants to believe, and it makes “Truth” nonexistent!  Nor is it our “interpretation” that validates truth, unless it is consistent with all other truths in the Scripture.  At that point it is scripture validating scripture. 

 

 

What is astounding to me is that the devil has taken the Eucharist as the center for worship and made it of no significance, reducing those who do not understand to spiritually lifeless, in the words of Christ, “If you do not eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no life in you.”  Certainly the Lord’s Supper, Eucharist, Communion, etc is the center of worship; not as a ritual to be performed, but as a “remembrance” of what Christ did at the cross.  However, the passage in John 6:53 you quoted does not refer to the Communion, but to accepting Christ as the bread of life or to believe and accepting Him as the one who gives eternal life.  I suppose if one wanted to stretch the application of the passage it might be applied to the Eucharist, but the meaning is a continual belief in Jesus as the “bread of life.”

 

My hearts desire is to be prepared to receive the Lord in a worthy manor; this is the simple but mysterious foundation of 2000 years of faith that I am a small part of.

 

Nelg: “Funny that you should say that, for that IS what I am teaching tonight: Salvation through the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ.  Hummm.  I guess I need to study that a little more.

And, with the way Athim started, by the time we have several post, there is no telling what he would say.”

By understanding the origin of Pasca, one can grasp the significance of the cross in relation to the Jews and the door that God opened for the gentiles. To look at the crucifixion though in isolation as the stand alone act of salvation is exclusionary. The mechanism of salvation is not a one time cover all event for those who follow Christ. We were saved when Jesus died on the cross, we are saved by accepting Jesus as Lord and savior and by a Trinitarian Baptism, we are being saved as we struggle daily with temptations and sin with the help of the Trinity and the saints, and we will be saved by completing our life in a repentant fashion. Again, I am in total agreement.  Faithfulness continues throughout the life of the Christian walk.  Walking after the Spirit and abiding in the continued cleansing of the blood of Christ is paramount in having our sins removed.  First John 1:4-10 could not be clearer.  A failure to live life and remain faithful, places one in jeopardy of losing their faith (Heb 6:1-8; 10:26-31).  

 

The purpose of the cross has been fulfilled and the door is open, but the way of destruction is broad and many will take that path. So how does one find the true path and what is the true path and does that path still exist today?  Yes, it does.  God has not changed His Eternal Plan established before the foundation of the world (1Co 2:6-10; Ep 1:3-14; 2Tim 1:9-10).  That plan is still operative. 

 

All of Jesus ministry is interconnected and culminates with the cross and resurrection.  Thus Paul writes of glorying in the cross.  This predetermined plan, the mystery and wisdom of God, was the death and resurrection of Christ (1Co 1:18-25, 30). The plan of God to remove sin and death by death was and is perceived by the unbeliever as “moronic,” “foolishness” (1:18).  If we think like the world and use the wisdom of man, then the message of Christ crucified will still seem like a foolish plan. (1:20-21).  To reason in such a fashion will only produce unbelief and the cross will be a stumbling block (1:21, 23).  Yet this was the method chosen by God to redeem mankind.  It is the power and wisdom of God (1:24).

Christ crucified has become to the believer “the wisdom of God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption” (1:30).  It was this message, Christ crucified, which was the primary message of Paul (1Co 2:1-5).

 

Jesus came to establish the Church and chose the 12 Apostles to accomplish its beginning, by the laying on of hands in Ordination, the Church has grown and still exists under the governance of the Holy Spirit starting at Pentecost, through the grace bestowed by Christ, with His living Apostles,

Clergy, monastic’s, and the faithful laity who have laid down, and continue to lay down their lives as Christ did, for Christ so that His truth can to be upheld and glorified. Not as fanatic Muslims, killing and being killed, but as the sweet fragrance of sacrifice that burns in the heart of God. I, too, believe and teach that there is but one body or church that was established on Pentecost by Christ, when He “poured out” the Holy Spirit on all believers.  Thus, when an individual comes to faith and obedience to the gospel, they are added to this one body.  False teaching and ignorance of what Christ and the apostles came to establish spawn the denominational divisions of the one church.  Christ prayed that we all be one, but I fear that our divisions have made a mockery of that prayer.  I came out of denominationalism some 55 years ago and embraced being part of the one body of Christ.  My statement about being “just Christian” is not stating that I am not part of the church, but that I am not part of any denominational group.  I attend worship with a congregation of 700 people who have a similar stance.  They are not a denomination, have no earthly headquarters, but have fellowship with others who belong only to Christ.  We uphold the gospel of Christ and seek to life actively for Him.  He is the only head of the body.  We seek to preach, teach, and do what the church is commanded to do. 

I said all that to qualify my statement of “just Christian.”

 

The body and blood of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, is and always will be the center of correct worship and faith for the Church militant. His sermon in the desert recounted in the Gospel of the Apostle John chapter 6, ties in with the last supper and the authority given to the Church to forgive sins in Jesus name and to administer His body and blood to the true believers. As I stated earlier, this passage does not give the authority to forgive sins to anyone.  It states that Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe and accept Him as Lord and Messiah.  From your background in the Orthodox Church, I know that this is not what you have been taught.  But check out the context of the passage again.  You will find that there is a broader meaning than simply confining it to the church. 

I do not doubt that the church preaches and teaches the gospel of Christ, or that the apostles and prophets of Christ ordained the establishment of the means or way of salvation.  They were; and we have them revealed in the Bible.  And the church, having their instruction and message of salvation given to us, is to proclaim that message to all the world.  Thus, it is the authority of God and not of man.  It is the message which I teach and preach today.  

 

Sure the church put structure and Tradition to these authorities under the governance of the Holy Spirit, but if we do not believe in the Church and that the Holy Spirit rests in the saints, and that Holy God fearing Spirit filled men and women are built upon the rock of Christ, then what good does it do you having a bible that they wrote and complied anyway, or what good does it do you claiming to be a saint when your legacy is torn down by heresy. I refer to the above comments.  However, all those who are “in Christ” or “the church” are saints of God.  My “legacy” was destroyed and removed when I came to trust in Christ.  My old ways are dead as my life is dead.  It is no longer I, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20).  Again, your tradition explains or defines a “saint” with human regulations.  The Bible defines the saint as a person who has been cleansed by the blood of Christ, has the forgiveness of sins and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Usually in Scripture “saints” is used of the collective body and not as an individual.  Such quality is possessed only because an individual is part of the church, the gathered people of God.  All qualities shared with Christ are only “in Him.”  One is a “saint,” not because of anything he/she has done, but because he/she derives this quality from Christ’s work at the cross.  Of course, the task of the Christian life is to become fully what by the gift of grace we are.  The nature of Christians is the nature of Christ; but this is not possessed independently, it is only by incorporation “in Him.”  (cf. Rm 16:15; 2Co 1:1; Eph 1:15, 18, 2:19 3:8, 18; 4:12; Phil 1:1 4:21, 22; Col 1:2; 2Th 1:10; etc.) 

 

I am not angry with you or anyone else, I love people including many Protestants and Catholics but when you preach something other than what the Apostles held, they will judge you not me and you best know the truth before you strain the gnat and swallow the camel.  Again we are in agreement.  Since I am preaching the gospel of Christ and only what the Scriptures teach as truth, then I would be in compliance with Scripture.  But since you are not aware of what I teach concerning the gospel, how do you know that I “strain the gnat and swallow the camel?”  Here is where I have problems with some of your comments.  You are making an assumption about what I (or anyone else) believe about Christ and the church.  If you want to know then you need to inquire as to what I believe, rather than making assumptions. 

 

The Church will stand till the end and not one iota will change, the truth will be preached and those who truly seek Christ with humility, obedience and of course by the will of Christ, will find eternal life in this life and the next.  There has never been a doubt about the church or Christ since I entered into faith.  It is what I have preached and taught all these years.  I love His Kingdom, the church, for it is the body of Christ.  Christ is my total reason for living.  And like you, I had rather study and teach Christ than anything else. 

 

P. S. I love this stuff more than the Dinar I hold.

[dog53]

Got it.

You gotta be a lawyer to get to heaven

Cause the everyday joe sure as hell wont understand a word you both have said. 

Its wonderful that you two theologians are so gifted.

But not so for most the masses.