The Prophet Muhammad

[Markinsa]

MARKINSA: Run 100 yards in 9.9 seconds and I will agree with you that we are all equal.  When you die and are assumed into heaven physically, when you appear to countless faithful people after your death and grant miracles then I will say, you know what, you were equal to the mother of God, but I will reserve that conclusion till we have both passed.  

 

Reading some literature written on the subject will inspire and help us all have a better perspective on what is attainable for a humans in terms of righteousness and holiness, the qualities found in all Gods saints and certainly exemplified in Gods mother.

 

So if God requires all our praise then do not praise another of your fellow saints for as long as you live, even if they lay their life down for the faith. This is a flawed notion, God expects us to love one another and praising, especially those who excel in faith is not only edifying it is expected, though giving the glory in all things to God when praised. Worship of course is alone reserved for God. Perhaps Mary is turning over in her grave, oh wait, she doesn’t have one.

 

All I can say is wow...

Galatians 2:6 (NLT)

6 And the leaders of the church had nothing to add to what I was preaching. (By the way, their reputation as great leaders made no difference to me, for God has no favorites.)

 

Ephesians 6:9 (NLT)

9 Masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Don’t threaten them; remember, you both have the same Master in heaven, and he has no favorites.

Colossians 3:25 (NLT)

25 But if you do what is wrong, you will be paid back for the wrong you have done. For God has no favorites.

1 Peter 1:17 (NLT)

17 And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. He will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time as “foreigners in the land.”

 

Exodus 20:4-6 (NLT)

4 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image (Comment: Including Statues of the Virgin Mary) of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. 5 You must not bow down to them or worship them (Comment: Them = the Virgin Mary), for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. 6 But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.

As you can see scripture clearly states, "God has no favorites".

 

 

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[renomac]

Mohammed was a self, self proclaimed prophet.  the only prophesy to come true was he said he would return to madina !

The Holy Bible had already been published and they read it to him.  That's where he got all the visions from.

He never performed any miracles and was never raised from the dead.  he never assended into heaven but he died

the death of a normal man.  His bones are still in the GROUND ! 

 

There you have it, islam, Mohammed, one big ferry tale.  IT is a fake religion with no Spirit, Hope or LOVE, and especially

no Savior, Jesus Christ !

[ATHIM]

Markinsa

You use the scriptures as a weapon, very concerning, especially in light of the fact that they were written by the people of faith whose writings and Traditions you diminish. There are piles of scriptures that indicate the opposite of what you said.

 

Luke 1:30
Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

Luke 2:52
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Acts 7:46
“who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob.

 

In simple terms those who have found favor with God are His chosen. Those who lose favor with God are in darkness eternal. When we speak of favorites, we speak in eternal terms not in earthly terms and we who are at risk of losing our souls do not measure to those beneath His throne at this time.

 

I do not have statues of the Virgin Mary, I do have icons though and I give her the reverence she deserves because of her majesty among all people. BTW, the evangelist Luke was the first iconographer and his first icon depicted the Virgin Mary, funny eh?

 

“Saved by the blood” in your Icon. I am curious to know what you think that means, not to me or to you, but to the Christ and the Apostles. Let me hazard a guess - - -

We are washed in the blood of the Lamb who died on the cross for us and through faith in Him I am saved. When His blood was shed and He died we were saved. It is the redeeming blood of God that has saved me and I need do nothing more than accept this fact.

Edited September 9, 2013 by ATHIM

[Markinsa]

 

 

I'm relieved that you weren't offended. In pondering the many posts on this blog, there seems to be one consistent and high barrier that is ever present. It looks like this: If YOU don't believe as I do, then something is wrong with YOU. It's here among us. I'm guilty myself. I think all of us carry this ready-to-use barrier around in our mental pocket to erect at the first sign of beliefs that don't conform to what we have been taught as 'true' and Christian. Therefore, we stand behind it and 'throw' scriptures as if the other one hasn't read them already. I'm consciously trying to destroy the barrier I carry. Fellowship and the common love of Christ require it.

Guilty too, but in my defense, and you have to admit, there are many who have been indoctrinated a certain way, and if you speak contrary to what they believe they take offense. I try to supply scripture in my post whenever possible as evidence of what God has said. You can speak in generalities and say God said this, or God said that, or the Bible says this or that, and without the scripture for support you'll get an argument. I prefer to use God's Word than my own. How can we say it any better than he already has?  Thus, the reason why I referred to Isaiah 55:11 in an earlier post.

 

Your answers are good answers. Short, but clear and honest. But you didn't answer the question about possible mysteries in the Holy Bible.

 

I must leave. I'll resume later today.

Busted! Actually, I wanted to avoid answering this, but I will do so now.

 

Question: Are there any mysteries in the Holy Bible that compel you to seek a greater understanding of its meanings? If so, how are you addressing that need. But if not, it's really ok. Because, no one has either the right or, truth be told, the ability to properly judge anyone else.

 

In July of last year, I received prophetic word in my Church and I was told to start a deep study of God's Word.  I have NEVER sat down and studied God's Word.  I have read most of the Bible but there are some books, that I may have glossed over or missed a few chapters here and there.  I have excuses of why I haven't started, but I don't believe any of them are good enough to avoid doing what I was instructed to do.  I was told that if I do so, God would show me riddles and wisdom and that he would reveal himself to me.  I was also asked earlier when I was going to start my ministry? (So yes, there are mysteries in God's Word that I need to investigate.)

 

-

 

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[Markinsa]

Markinsa

You use the scriptures as a weapon, very concerning, especially in light of the fact that they were written by the people of faith whose writings and Traditions you diminish.

 

Ephesians 6:13-17 (NLT)

13 Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm. 14 Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of God’s righteousness. 15 For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good News so that you will be fully prepared. 16 In addition to all of these, hold up the shield of faith to stop the fiery arrows of the devil. 17 Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

 

There are piles of scriptures that indicate the opposite of what you said.

 

Luke 1:30

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

Luke 2:52

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Acts 7:46

“who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob.

 

In simple terms those who have found favor with God are His chosen. Those who lose favor with God are in darkness eternal. When we speak of favorites, we speak in eternal terms not in earthly terms and we who are at risk of losing our souls do not measure to those beneath His throne at this time.

 

There is a difference between finding favor and being a favorite.  I can give my mother flowers, and find favor with her, but my brother can be her first born and be her favorite because he was her first child. 

 

Let me also ask you, if Mary is such an important part of our Salvation why is she only mentioned once, outside of the 4 gospels, in Acts 1:14?  I mean, really, if she is to be revered, as you say, all of the writers of the books outside of the Gospels should make mention that we need to pray to Mary so she can act as an intercessor for us.  

 

Acts 1:14

They all met together and were constantly united in prayer, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, several other women, and the brothers of Jesus.

 

 

I do not have statues of the Virgin Mary, I do have icons though and I give her the reverence she deserves because of her majesty among all people. BTW, the evangelist Luke was the first iconographer and his first icon depicted the Virgin Mary, funny eh?

 

But does the Church you worship in have them? 

 

 

“Saved by the blood” in your Icon. I am curious to know what you think that means, not to me or to you, but to the Christ and the Apostles. Let me hazard a guess - - -

We are washed in the blood of the Lamb who died on the cross for us and through faith in Him I am saved. When His blood was shed and He died we were saved. It is the redeeming blood of God that has saved me and I need do nothing more than accept this fact.

 

I agree.

 

Romans 5:8-10 (NLT)

8 But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. 9 And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation. 10 For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son.

 

-

 

[ATHIM]

MARKINSAS

I will respond to you in general. OK I accept God does not have favorites, He just favors some more than others.

 

Regarding the Church I worship in, No statues, we have Icons and in regards to my Church, it is THE Church, there is no other Church when one seeks the fullness of truth. Some 40,000 denominations all proclaiming to have the truth, I don’t even know what to say to that. What exists outside of the Church are faithless knockoffs filled with false Christ's teaching a washed down version of the truth to a people born out of, primarily the Protestant movement. No I am not Roman Catholic I am an Orthodox Christian. I belong to the Church that has remained unchanged from Christ and the Apostles. We have Christ and He is nowhere else and we shed our blood and give our lives for Him and to protect that truth, Christ has us and we will be here till He returns. Can you bear this?

 

The Church has stood for 2000 years and resisted heresies and false doctrine and has kept the mystical light of Christ burning despite what Satan has propagated in terms of false teaching, for many claiming Christ, have no faith! What they claim as faith is what Satan himself wants them to believe and accept, and nothing more. There is no interpretation of scripture there is one truth handed down by Christ and His Apostles, what you or I choose to discern is irrelavent. If we do not believe what they taught then we have no part in Him. For He came to build a Church and offer Himself for that Church and to build a people upon that rock and the rock will resist all of hells fury let alone a chat on Dinar Vets.

 

I teach the Orthodox Christian faith and I have studied for 27 years while still being a disciple of the truth with much to learn. I am Greek and read Greek and I was raised in the Church that gave you the Bible that you quote and use to bludgeon true believers. REGARDING THE VIRGIN MARY, your stand is way out of line from that of the Apostles who would not, and will not hesitate to rebuke you at the apointed time. We all need to show some humility before Gods mother as Christ Himself did. Or do you think that ‘honor thy father and mother’ did not apply to Him?

 

Your answer regarding “being washed in the blood of the lamb” is sadly, what I expected and proves to me that, as Jesus said, NOT ME, you are Spiritually lifeless and that you have a misguided understanding of the New Testaments fullfillment. It angers me that we have gone so far from the truth that people are missing the whole point of the incarnation and placing their souls in danger with the help of blind guides. In order to know why Jesus came and to live the life that Jesus requires of the faithful, one must have a teacher who teaches what the Apostles taught. Believers fall in line with these teachings, they do not buck them. The Bible is one icon of the Church it is not the whole canon of faith, BUT the faith is edified and revealed by the Bible and the truth is within if one can be taught.

 

This discussion, is in all probablity, a dead end, it appears that you have your mind set.

[Nelg]

On this day, the 8th of September when the Church celebrates the birth of the Virgin Mary, I think I am obligated to point out a few things seeing as though it has become hard for us to hear the word from Gods Church.

 

It is not that God has favorites; it’s just that as you love some people more than others, so does He, being those who do His will and faithfully serve Him till there last breath. God rests in His saints. Mary was born as we were, into a fallen world and in need of the savior as we are. She was though dedicated to the temple by her elderly parents at the age of Three where she was raised in prayer and service to God. Sound like our lives yet? When she had reached the age at which she could no longer stay in the temple, about 13, she had to be given into the care of someone seeing as though her elderly parents were now deceased. She was betrothed to Joseph.  

 

Are these words from your traditions?  Is there a place we can go to read the entire account? 

 

 

At about 14 years of age the Archangel Gabriel appeared to her. Gabriel was so in awe of her that he was at a loss for what to say to her, so her spoke to her as he was instructed by God.

Where would we go to read this story?

 

“HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE THE LORD IS WITH THEE.” He told her that she had found favor with God and that she would bring forth the savior of the world. Sound like our lives yet? She was ridiculed and blasphemed for obvious pregnancy without being married and it was the will of the people to kill her. If they killed her we might still be waiting for the savior today. Sound like our lives yet?

 

 

Joseph was an elderly man at the time of their betrothal and confessed to Jesus directly at about the age of 100 and passed away just before Jesus began His ministry, do the math. P.S. get a hold of Joseph’s confession and read it, it will move your heart.

Where would one find this confession?

 

MARKINSA: Run 100 yards in 9.9 seconds and I will agree with you that we are all equal.  When you die and are assumed into heaven physically, when you appear to countless faithful people after your death and grant miracles then I will say, you know what, you were equal to the mother of God, but I will reserve that conclusion till we have both passed.  

Physical and spiritual equality is making a comparison between “apples and oranges,” it is no possible.  One must make the comparison on a spiritual-to-spiritual basis.  An elder of the church is not on an authoritative equal plain, for elders have an authority in the church that deacons or teachers do not have.  But elders and deacons are spiritually equal to each other because both are cleansed by the blood of Christ.  He has made them both “saints” based upon the blood. 

 

Reading some literature written on the subject will inspire and help us all have a better perspective on what is attainable for a humans in terms of righteousness and holiness, the qualities found in all Gods saints and certainly exemplified in Gods mother.

Mary was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, but not the mother of the preexistent Christ.  Christ is an eternal being that never had a beginning and will never have an ending.  Jesus is the Preexisting God coming in the form of a man.  There is a psychological difference between saying that Mary is the mother of God and that Mary is the mother of Jesus.  The first would be biblically and physically impossible, the second would not. 

 

So if God requires all our praise then do not praise another of your fellow saints for as long as you live, even if they lay their life down for the faith. This is a flawed notion, God expects us to love one another and praising, especially those who excel in faith is not only edifying it is expected, though giving the glory in all things to God when praised. Worship of course is alone reserved for God. Perhaps Mary is turning over in her grave, oh wait, she doesn’t have one.

 

JESUS HAD NO PHYSICAL BROTHERS; He had cousins. The Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures used by the Apostles (abbreviated LXX) includes specific words for "cousin," notably adelphinos and anepsios, but they are rarely used. The less specific word adelphos, which can mean "brother," "cousin," "kinsman," "fellow believer," or "fellow countryman," is used consistently throughout the LXX, even when cousin or kinsman is clearly the relation described (such as in Genesis 14:14, 16; 29:12; Leviticus 25:49; Jeremiah 32:8, 9, 12; Tobit 7:2; etc.). Lot, for instance, who was the nephew of Abraham (cf. Genesis 11:27-31), is called his brother in Genesis 13:8 and 11:14-16. The point is that the commonly used Greek word for a male relative, adelphos, can be translated "cousin" or "brother" if no specific family relation is indicated.

 But the passage under consideration is found in the Greek NT and not the Septuagint.  In the NT adelphos and adelphe denote either “physical brotherhood” in the strict sense or more generally the “spiritual brotherhood” of say the Israelites or Christians; the derivatives and compounds adelphotes, philodelphos, piladelphois, pseidadelphos being out the figurative significance of the basic term. 

Our concern are the physical references, that is, are there NT Scriptures that refer to the physical brothers in the flesh.  Certainly there are!  Among the disciples Simon and Andrew are blood relation (Mk 1:16 with Jno 1:40-41; Mt 10:2), brothers not cousins.  James and John were the sons of Zebedee or physical brothers (Mk 1:19; 3:17; 5:37; 10:35; Mt 17:1; Act 12:2).  Mary and Martha have a brother name Lazarus (Lk 10:39f; Jno 11:1-2) who was raised from the grave by Jesus.  In John 2:12 refer to Jesus mother, brothers, and disciples staying in Capernaum for the Passover.  In John 7, while Jesus was in Galilee, His brothers were encouraging Him to go into Judea (7:3, 5, 10); the term “brothers” is in contrast with His disciples.   

Adelphoi of Jesus are mentioned in Mk 3:31ff, and Matthew 13 the names of His brothers are listed, and it mentions His sisters as well.  This word is also use in the questioning of the Sadducees as to marriage in the resurrection body (Mk 12:19ff), the Prodigal Son (Lk 15:27, 32), the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:28); and there are others.  ALL these passage use the same term to refer to those who have a physical relationship as brothers.  Not one time is it translated “cousins.” 

This does not mean that the above is the only meaning of the “adelphos,” but that there is a meaning that could and was used to mean physical brothers. 

As I ask earlier, why is it necessary for Mary, the mother of Jesus, to remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus?  There certainly was nothing wrong with Jesus having brothers and sisters. 

   

Is there anywhere a clear statement in the Scriptures establishing Jesus brothers as literally the children of Mary? In fact, there is not. Nowhere is Mary explicitly stated to be the mother of Jesus' brothers. The formula for speaking of the Lord's family is "His mother and His brothers." In Mark the possessive, anavtou"of Him," is inserted before both "His mother" and "His brothers," making a clear distinction. In Acts 1:14, the separation is more pronounced: "Mary the mother of Jesus, and His brothers." Some manuscripts use the conjunctive syn "along with, in company with," so that the text reads "Mary the mother of Jesus, along with His brothers." In any case, Mary is never identified as the mother of Jesus' brothers (nor they as her children), but only as the Mother of Jesus. (Nor is she even mentioned as “the Mother of God.”) 

The emphasis of Acts 1:14 is upon Jesus and the events of the Ascension.  

Again, why is it necessary that Mary have no other children?

 

If Jesus had brothers, He broke tradition by giving her to the Apostle John at the cross. And yes, Mary is a type of the new Eve, obedient to God.

Every one fled the scene.  No one but John and the women were at the cross.  

 

PONDER THIS. Jesus lived for 9 months inside a sinner, touching her sinful body, breathing her sinful air and being fed by her sinful flesh. Make sense to you??? This notion is unthinkable.

Contact with the flesh and breathing the air did not make Jesus a sinner.  Sinning is the results of disobedience or lack of trust in God.  Jesus was always obedient and trusted God implicitly. His holiness is based upon the trust factor.  While He walked in this world during His lifetime He touched, ate, lived with, and walked with sinners, yet without sin.  In fact every baby coming into this world is first pure until he / she commits an act of sin. 

Yes, it makes since to me. 

 

The holy saints love and adore her as Gods mother. She is a speedy intercessor, humble beyond reproach, always pointing us to her son and our Lord and may she greet us in the company of our family when we depart from this life.

 

Blessed be the holy mother of God who is praised among the angels and the saints. Eternal be her memory and glorified be the fruit of her womb our Lord and savior Jesus Chris, now and always unto the end of the age.

[Wayfarer]

To all.

 

I feel like yelling...shouting at the top of my lungs. STOP!!!

 

Can't you see that this discourse represents the SNARE that entraps ALL on earth, or, at the very least, one of its major components?

 

Everyone here is sincere. But everyone is LOCKED into their entrenched theological and doctrinal positions. On a microcosm level, what we are displaying is the global STALEMATE that represents the very limits of the human mind.

 

Look at the Middle East. Look at the theological warrings within Christianity represented here. There are NO intellectual or theological solutions to resolve these religious differences.

 

If this isn't the SNARE that none can escape from, then that prophecy has been fulfilled. We are helpless. Only Christ's Return can resolve this dilemma.  Only then, as the Spirit of Truth, can HE lift us above such intellectual squabblings.

 

Now the most important question of all: What if He has already come? Like Markinsa said, all the changes that have been occurring on earth are associated with His Return.

 

Markinsa's honest sincerity gave me the courage to ask this question. Because, Jesus, as the Christ, posited the possibility of His Return "as a thief in the night". And ALL would be asleep. 

 

No one can deny that the earth (the human condition) has completely changed. So, the question is, What if He has already come?

Edited September 9, 2013 by Wayfarer

[ATHIM]

Nelg - I will provide you with some links and thoughts when I have the opportunity, probably some time today.

 

Wayfarer - Christ came 2000 years ago and if He had returned this discourse could not be held. When Christ returns to the earth all life as we know it will cease perminately. The reason we must, and are compelled out of love to hold these discussions, is becasue all of us are seeking a deeper and more committed, more correct relationship with our Lord and savior. Is it not the same Satan from the garden who is constantly seeking a way to trap man, we have and will be the target of his traps till Christ returns and corrects all things, we are only seekers of the truth and though we disagree, it is my hope that we remain civil, open minded and loving. In truth it is the challenge presented to me by my Protestant brothers, that I love, that has inspired and forced me to dig deeper and understand more about my own faith. Stay in peace Gods love is sufficient, but for Nelg and Markinsas and I, a little healthy scappling can only help as long as it is done for the right reasons. Christ was not a, lets all just get along kind of person. He rocked the boat and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us all hungry and struggling on every level,this is how we grow.

Edited September 9, 2013 by ATHIM

[Nelg]

Wayfarer, your post indicates that you are conflicted and frustrated by the discussions on this thread.  I hope that your frustration subsides and that some peace with come as you "cross swords" with others in the battle for truth.  None of us here feel we have the "last word" on these matters. Most of the issues have been debated for years without resolution and we all understand that.  What we are doing is honing our knowledge of Scripture and learning from each other as we nudge each other to a clearer and more biblical understanding of truth.  We have respected the territory/position/understanding that each of us hold, while challenging the position with reason, while maintaining respect for each other.  I have my doubts whether anyone else reads these threads except the writers and the Mods, but I am hopeful that others are reading and learning.  

The reason I mentioned that you must be conflicted is that you want this to "STOP" but you started asking questions about the coming of Christ.  Dose this mean that you want the discussion to stop or move into a different direction?  On a personal preference, I had rather discuss one thing at a time rather than be "all over the board" by dispersing our thoughts into five or six issues. To me, this is frustrating.  And, I had rather discuss the things that really matter, aka., Christ and salvation rather than thing which a on the fringe and without strong biblical support where opinions vary widely and sometime wildly. 

 

I must prepare for a funeral, the hospital, and a two meetings today.  Hopefully I will get back home for the evening.  May all of you have a "blessed day" and that Christ will fill your heart with loving passion for His word.  

 

Nelg

[Wayfarer]

Wayfarer - Christ came 2000 years ago and if He had returned this discourse could not be held. When Christ returns to the earth all life as we know it will cease perminately. The reason we must, and are compelled out of love to hold these discussions, is becasue all of us are seeking a deeper and more committed, more correct relationship with our Lord and savior.

 

ATHIM, intellectual discourse has its merits. But the highest and most valued levels of conversation lead towards a greater understanding and acknowledgement of God and His mysterious ways. The most important of those mysteries where concealed in the Holy Bible, which forms the contextual framework of all points of view being expressed here. But, so far, no one except Markinsa has indicated an appreciation of them. The rest, IMHO, including your postings, have been no more than demonstrations of HUMAN understandings that are inherently, predictably, and profoundly restricted by the limitations of the human mind itself vis-à-vis the reality of Jesus and the Father.

 

 

If you cannot admit to the possibility that, despite your 27 of scholarly learning, there are still 'fundamental' things in the Holy Bible you can't possibly know until Christ returns, then I, for one, cannot justify spending further time on YOUR path of "seeking a deeper and more committed, more correct relationship with our Lord and savior."

 

I have my own path, and it begins and ends with believing that the Holy Bible is true; that ALL of it has been pointing to THIS time in human history for the coming of the Lord; that not only is it possible but ALL the signs point to He came as "a thief in the night." There is no other explanation for the profound, unprecedented and, otherwise, unexplainable "increase in knowledge" being experienced by Man, who once dwelled in caves.

 

So, on one hand, some of these postings have been informative. On the other, they only serve to prove that Man (the species) has found itself entangled in a preordained and purely intellectual SNARE. Hence, the need for the Lord to come and, once again, rescue those over whom Jesus wept.

 

 

Wayfarer, your post indicates that you are conflicted and frustrated by the discussions on this thread.  I hope that your frustration subsides and that some peace with come as you "cross swords" with others in the battle for truth.  None of us here feel we have the "last word" on these matters. Most of the issues have been debated for years without resolution and we all understand that.  What we are doing is honing our knowledge of Scripture and learning from each other as we nudge each other to a clearer and more biblical understanding of truth.  We have respected the territory/position/understanding that each of us hold, while challenging the position with reason, while maintaining respect for each other.  I have my doubts whether anyone else reads these threads except the writers and the Mods, but I am hopeful that others are reading and learning.  

The reason I mentioned that you must be conflicted is that you want this to "STOP" but you started asking questions about the coming of Christ.  Dose this mean that you want the discussion to stop or move into a different direction?  On a personal preference, I had rather discuss one thing at a time rather than be "all over the board" by dispersing our thoughts into five or six issues. To me, this is frustrating.  And, I had rather discuss the things that really matter, aka., Christ and salvation rather than thing which a on the fringe and without strong biblical support where opinions vary widely and sometime wildly. 

 

I must prepare for a funeral, the hospital, and a two meetings today.  Hopefully I will get back home for the evening.  May all of you have a "blessed day" and that Christ will fill your heart with loving passion for His word.  

 

Nelg

 

Nelg, I apologize for answering ATHIM's first. But, at this point, I don't think I have any more to say. So, please read my post to him.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Wayfarer

[Wayfarer]

Wayfarer, your post indicates that you are conflicted and frustrated by the discussions on this thread.  I hope that your frustration subsides and that some peace with come as you "cross swords" with others in the battle for truth.  

 

Nelg, I appreciate your kind considerations. And, personally, it matters not if only a handful of us visit and/or contribute to this dynamic and highly sincere section of this site.

 

None of us here feel we have the "last word" on these matters.

 

Are you certain of that? Or were those "last word" epistemological missiles flung my way simply my imagination?

 

Most of the issues have been debated for years without resolution and we all understand that.  What we are doing is honing our knowledge of Scripture and learning from each other as we nudge each other to a clearer and more biblical understanding of truth.  

 

"Nudge"??? 

 

We have respected the territory/position/understanding that each of us hold, while challenging the position with reason, while maintaining respect for each other.

 

While wearing full theological body armor.

 

Time is quickly slipping by. The whole world is in crisis and has been for the last few generations. I, too, want to learn more about the etymological roots of biblical terms....like 'brother'. But with each passing day, with each global crisis, with each senseless gangland murder, with each sectarian massacre and flight of millions of refugees into other lands, my mental energy (what little is left) seeks solutions...answers...and, primarily, the will of God.

 

I come from 3 generations of clergy. I was to be the 4th. When offered a 2,000 member church in the mid-70s, I turned it down. Even then I knew that God was doing something new. Even then I realized that the Church had lost its historic power, which is becoming more apparent year after year. Only God, not Satan, could be responsible for the removal of the Church's spiritual influence within society. Because, Jesus built it. And the gates of hell shall not, thus, DID NOT prevail against it.  In other words (how can I saw this?) the Church is slowly crumbling down (so-called mega churches are something else, IMO)

 

BTW, I recently learned that there are many pastors in pulpits who do not believe in God. Some lost their faith while in seminary, yet they needed a job. More can be said later about this, but it's germane to my discourse orientation. With all the things happening to both the Church and the world, what good is it to know everything biblical? Worldwide, the sheep are wandering astray.  

 

The reason I mentioned that you must be conflicted is that you want this to "STOP" but you started asking questions about the coming of Christ.  Dose this mean that you want the discussion to stop or move into a different direction?  On a personal preference, I had rather discuss one thing at a time rather than be "all over the board" by dispersing our thoughts into five or six issues. To me, this is frustrating.  And, I had rather discuss the things that really matter, aka., Christ and salvation rather than thing which a on the fringe and without strong biblical support where opinions vary widely and sometime wildly. 

 

Again, Nelg, I appreciate your kindness. You and others are free to choose whatever you wish as a topic of discussion. I was just hoping that the most important issue of our time could be it.

 

I must prepare for a funeral, the hospital, and a two meetings today.  Hopefully I will get back home for the evening.  May all of you have a "blessed day" and that Christ will fill your heart with loving passion for His word.  

 

Nelg, I assure you that Christ already has. My love is in the prophecies and their fulfillment. "Thief in the night", for example.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Wayfarer

[Orthophonic]

On this day, the 8th of September when the Church celebrates the birth of the Virgin Mary, I think I am obligated to point out a few things seeing as though it has become hard for us to hear the word from Gods Church.

 

It is not that God has favorites; it’s just that as you love some people more than others, so does He, being those who do His will and faithfully serve Him till there last breath. God rests in His saints. Mary was born as we were, into a fallen world and in need of the savior as we are. She was though dedicated to the temple by her elderly parents at the age of Three where she was raised in prayer and service to God. Sound like our lives yet? When she had reached the age at which she could no longer stay in the temple, about 13, she had to be given into the care of someone seeing as though her elderly parents were now deceased. She was betrothed to Joseph.  

 

Are these words from your traditions?  Is there a place we can go to read the entire account? 

 

 

At about 14 years of age the Archangel Gabriel appeared to her. Gabriel was so in awe of her that he was at a loss for what to say to her, so her spoke to her as he was instructed by God.

Where would we go to read this story?

 

“HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE THE LORD IS WITH THEE.” He told her that she had found favor with God and that she would bring forth the savior of the world. Sound like our lives yet? She was ridiculed and blasphemed for obvious pregnancy without being married and it was the will of the people to kill her. If they killed her we might still be waiting for the savior today. Sound like our lives yet?

 

 

Joseph was an elderly man at the time of their betrothal and confessed to Jesus directly at about the age of 100 and passed away just before Jesus began His ministry, do the math. P.S. get a hold of Joseph’s confession and read it, it will move your heart.

Where would one find this confession?

 

MARKINSA: Run 100 yards in 9.9 seconds and I will agree with you that we are all equal.  When you die and are assumed into heaven physically, when you appear to countless faithful people after your death and grant miracles then I will say, you know what, you were equal to the mother of God, but I will reserve that conclusion till we have both passed.  

Physical and spiritual equality is making a comparison between “apples and oranges,” it is no possible.  One must make the comparison on a spiritual-to-spiritual basis.  An elder of the church is not on an authoritative equal plain, for elders have an authority in the church that deacons or teachers do not have.  But elders and deacons are spiritually equal to each other because both are cleansed by the blood of Christ.  He has made them both “saints” based upon the blood. 

 

Reading some literature written on the subject will inspire and help us all have a better perspective on what is attainable for a humans in terms of righteousness and holiness, the qualities found in all Gods saints and certainly exemplified in Gods mother.

Mary was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, but not the mother of the preexistent Christ.  Christ is an eternal being that never had a beginning and will never have an ending.  Jesus is the Preexisting God coming in the form of a man.  There is a psychological difference between saying that Mary is the mother of God and that Mary is the mother of Jesus.  The first would be biblically and physically impossible, the second would not. 

 

So if God requires all our praise then do not praise another of your fellow saints for as long as you live, even if they lay their life down for the faith. This is a flawed notion, God expects us to love one another and praising, especially those who excel in faith is not only edifying it is expected, though giving the glory in all things to God when praised. Worship of course is alone reserved for God. Perhaps Mary is turning over in her grave, oh wait, she doesn’t have one.

 

JESUS HAD NO PHYSICAL BROTHERS; He had cousins. The Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures used by the Apostles (abbreviated LXX) includes specific words for "cousin," notably adelphinos and anepsios, but they are rarely used. The less specific word adelphos, which can mean "brother," "cousin," "kinsman," "fellow believer," or "fellow countryman," is used consistently throughout the LXX, even when cousin or kinsman is clearly the relation described (such as in Genesis 14:14, 16; 29:12; Leviticus 25:49; Jeremiah 32:8, 9, 12; Tobit 7:2; etc.). Lot, for instance, who was the nephew of Abraham (cf. Genesis 11:27-31), is called his brother in Genesis 13:8 and 11:14-16. The point is that the commonly used Greek word for a male relative, adelphos, can be translated "cousin" or "brother" if no specific family relation is indicated.

 But the passage under consideration is found in the Greek NT and not the Septuagint.  In the NT adelphos and adelphe denote either “physical brotherhood” in the strict sense or more generally the “spiritual brotherhood” of say the Israelites or Christians; the derivatives and compounds adelphotes, philodelphos, piladelphois, pseidadelphos being out the figurative significance of the basic term. 

Our concern are the physical references, that is, are there NT Scriptures that refer to the physical brothers in the flesh.  Certainly there are!  Among the disciples Simon and Andrew are blood relation (Mk 1:16 with Jno 1:40-41; Mt 10:2), brothers not cousins.  James and John were the sons of Zebedee or physical brothers (Mk 1:19; 3:17; 5:37; 10:35; Mt 17:1; Act 12:2).  Mary and Martha have a brother name Lazarus (Lk 10:39f; Jno 11:1-2) who was raised from the grave by Jesus.  In John 2:12 refer to Jesus mother, brothers, and disciples staying in Capernaum for the Passover.  In John 7, while Jesus was in Galilee, His brothers were encouraging Him to go into Judea (7:3, 5, 10); the term “brothers” is in contrast with His disciples.   

Adelphoi of Jesus are mentioned in Mk 3:31ff, and Matthew 13 the names of His brothers are listed, and it mentions His sisters as well.  This word is also use in the questioning of the Sadducees as to marriage in the resurrection body (Mk 12:19ff), the Prodigal Son (Lk 15:27, 32), the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:28); and there are others.  ALL these passage use the same term to refer to those who have a physical relationship as brothers.  Not one time is it translated “cousins.” 

This does not mean that the above is the only meaning of the “adelphos,” but that there is a meaning that could and was used to mean physical brothers. 

As I ask earlier, why is it necessary for Mary, the mother of Jesus, to remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus?  There certainly was nothing wrong with Jesus having brothers and sisters. 

   

Is there anywhere a clear statement in the Scriptures establishing Jesus brothers as literally the children of Mary? In fact, there is not. Nowhere is Mary explicitly stated to be the mother of Jesus' brothers. The formula for speaking of the Lord's family is "His mother and His brothers." In Mark the possessive, anavtou"of Him," is inserted before both "His mother" and "His brothers," making a clear distinction. In Acts 1:14, the separation is more pronounced: "Mary the mother of Jesus, and His brothers." Some manuscripts use the conjunctive syn "along with, in company with," so that the text reads "Mary the mother of Jesus, along with His brothers." In any case, Mary is never identified as the mother of Jesus' brothers (nor they as her children), but only as the Mother of Jesus. (Nor is she even mentioned as “the Mother of God.”) 

The emphasis of Acts 1:14 is upon Jesus and the events of the Ascension.  

Again, why is it necessary that Mary have no other children?

 

If Jesus had brothers, He broke tradition by giving her to the Apostle John at the cross. And yes, Mary is a type of the new Eve, obedient to God.

Every one fled the scene.  No one but John and the women were at the cross.  

 

PONDER THIS. Jesus lived for 9 months inside a sinner, touching her sinful body, breathing her sinful air and being fed by her sinful flesh. Make sense to you??? This notion is unthinkable.

Contact with the flesh and breathing the air did not make Jesus a sinner.  Sinning is the results of disobedience or lack of trust in God.  Jesus was always obedient and trusted God implicitly. His holiness is based upon the trust factor.  While He walked in this world during His lifetime He touched, ate, lived with, and walked with sinners, yet without sin.  In fact every baby coming into this world is first pure until he / she commits an act of sin. 

Yes, it makes since to me. 

 

The holy saints love and adore her as Gods mother. She is a speedy intercessor, humble beyond reproach, always pointing us to her son and our Lord and may she greet us in the company of our family when we depart from this life.

 

Blessed be the holy mother of God who is praised among the angels and the saints. Eternal be her memory and glorified be the fruit of her womb our Lord and savior Jesus Chris, now and always unto the end of the age.

+1 Nelg. Very well thought out retort.

[Orthophonic]

To all.

 

I feel like yelling...shouting at the top of my lungs. STOP!!!

 

Can't you see that this discourse represents the SNARE that entraps ALL on earth, or, at the very least, one of its major components?

 

Everyone here is sincere. But everyone is LOCKED into their entrenched theological and doctrinal positions. On a microcosm level, what we are displaying is the global STALEMATE that represents the very limits of the human mind.

 

Look at the Middle East. Look at the theological warrings within Christianity represented here. There are NO intellectual or theological solutions to resolve these religious differences.

 

If this isn't the SNARE that none can escape from, then that prophecy has been fulfilled. We are helpless. Only Christ's Return can resolve this dilemma.  Only then, as the Spirit of Truth, can HE lift us above such intellectual squabblings.

 

Now the most important question of all: What if He has already come? Like Markinsa said, all the changes that have been occurring on earth are associated with His Return.

 

Markinsa's honest sincerity gave me the courage to ask this question. Because, Jesus, as the Christ, posited the possibility of His Return "as a thief in the night". And ALL would be asleep. 

 

No one can deny that the earth (the human condition) has completely changed. So, the question is, What if He has already come?

Wayfarer, I just wanted to include this. There is a theological solution. It's The Bible. And yes, Jesus Christ has come. ONCE. He is coming again, and although the Second Coming is described as "a thief in the night", He never said "ALL would be asleep".  The reference was to pay attention to prophecy. The Second Coming has not happened yet. The whole world will know when that happens. If you think the world is bad now, "you ain't seen nothin' yet".

[Nelg]

I have just posted this on another thread and I thought it could be placed here as well.  

 

 

How wonderful it would be to have the Lord's return wake us up in the morning!  Maranatha!  The heavens will be split, the universe will be removed, and time will be no more!  Saints will be rewarded and wicked will be cast into Hell, and the redeemed will be with the Lord forever!  What a wonderful day it will be!  

 

But I fear that it will not be His return, but His coming in judgment upon the nations of the world.  The signs of physical judgment in time are all around us just as He came in judgment on Israel, Judah, Assyria, Babylon, and a hundred other nations when their iniquity is full.  America's iniquity is growing but I don't hold the "sin gauge." The Holy God is the only One who knows when the meter reaches "full."  

At the same time the world goes thru the wrath of God, the church, which has so blended with the world, will not be excluded.  The reason is clear but blindingly deceptive.  The spiritual leaders, and preachers/prophets are becoming entertainers and directors of theater and musicals where big-named comedians and professional stand before thousands of tickled eared audiences unable to discern the difference between truth and error.  Morality and holiness have been replaced with a sweet mixture of acceptance and toleration of selective alterative life-styles, covered with a veneer of grace and freedom.  Holiness is condemned as being judgmental and morality as archaic.  Open acceptance of perverted morality, sin by biblical standards, is advanced as progressive and loving.  And the metered gauge gets closer to “full!”

Possibly the social sins so prevalent in the US today are due partially to the lack of a deep, earnest, spirit filled preaching on the holiness and righteousness of God.  The preacher of God should stand with the light of truth pointing and observing everything that degrades or destroys the moral and spiritual life of the people of God and the nation.  If there is evil, he should become a “troubler and disturber” of the nation and the church. The sermons should sting from the laser light cutting through to the heart and exposing sin, and shining brightly on the hope of redemption only in Christ.

Instead, we have hired for the pulpits eloquent intellectuals, proclaiming a Christ dethroned King and made into a “good ol’ boy” with pithy lessons for enjoying life.  Gone is the Christ on the cross who died for the sins of the world and is replaced with and “example of suffering and understanding the hurts and social injustice of the world.”

But the cross is much more than that!  It is the means of redeeming mankind!  It is not another way, it is not “your way” or “my way” it is THE ONLY WAY for humanity to deal with sin and death!  It takes conviction, character, and courage to fulfill the duties of a preacher of the gospel of Christ! Preachers who follow in the footsteps of preachers of the New Testament must have an unflinching courage that can be built only upon convictions as deep as one’s soul.  Such courage to stand and proclaim the cross of Christ in a generation rushing headlong into judgment because of sin, is needed to face a populace and church membership that will fight back to maintain the status quo and retain their unrighteousness.  It may cost the life of a preacher it he reveals the sinful leadership of presidents, priests, and false preaching.  But if preachers are not willing to loose everything for the sake of truth, he is not worthy to be a preacher of the gospel of Christ. 

Why did I focus on the leaders and preachers?  Because these leaders are the ones who form the spiritual direction of the church and nation. The coming judgment upon the church and nation has been the direct result of a church failing to preach a strong morality and the truth of the only salvation found in the cross of Christ.  NO NATION OR CIVILIZATION HAS EVER FALLEN WHEN THE PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO BE RIGHT WITH GOD!

The prophet Amos saw God measuring Israel with a plumb-line, showing that the nation was like a leaning wall which would collapse in the future (Amos 7:7-9).  He saw their nation to be like a basket of overripe fruit, ready to rot away (Amos 8:2). His plea of warning was, “Seek the Lord, and you shall live” (Amos 8:2).  Paul, by the Spirit, charged the preachers and leaders, “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.  But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.” (2Tim 4:1-5). 

Spiritual leaders and preachers – preach the Word! 

[Maggie123]

I have actually have read most of this thread and appreciate everyone's contributions.

 

What I appreciated most was the capacity for humility displayed by Wayfarer and Markinsa.

 

To me that is a very important "Christian" attribute... thanks for the example... still taking lessons.

 

 

 

GOD IS LOVE

[Wayfarer]

I have actually have read most of this thread and appreciate everyone's contributions.

 

What I appreciated most was the capacity for humility displayed by Wayfarer and Markinsa.

 

To me that is a very important "Christian" attribute... thanks for the example... still taking lessons.

 

 

 

GOD IS LOVE

 

Maggie, thank you. I have read your posts elsewhere. In some places, you became entangle with others. But here, you have shown another part of your true self by reading this tangled web of theological spinnings in your attempts to learn more about how the human mind has been attempting to comprehend God and His Son, Jesus.  

 

Thus, it is you who must be commended. You, who have been standing quietly on the sidelines, observing scholarly titans struggle against one another's 'fixed' theological positions. But be forewarned. There will be no winners. As Nelg stated, this has been an old, almost futile struggle. Even he has resigned himself to simply "nudging".  

 

As for me, I write under no delusions. Forgive my comparison, but I know that my role here is like "a voice in the wilderness," while also acknowledging that I am not invested with anything close to the spiritual power and understanding of John.

 

Another difference is that I am not directing these erudite minds towards the future but the recent past. The Lord had to return as "a thief in the night", just as He promised. You will see why in my posts. Please try to keep an open mind, which was also a necessary requirement 2,000 years ago when Jesus came.

 

Now, back into the fray.

[Wayfarer]

How wonderful it would be to have the Lord's return wake us up in the morning!  Maranatha!  The heavens will be split, the universe will be removed, and time will be no more! Saints will be rewarded and wicked will be cast into Hell, and the redeemed will be with the Lord forever!  What a wonderful day it will be!...............  

 

 

 

Nelg, although I will be placing comments within the text of your post, I want to, first, commend the writer for his/her eloquent and almost mystical prose. Was it you? I hope so. For the writer demonstrates not only a masterly command of the English language but the desire to employ it in service to preaching the word of God.

[Wayfarer]

Wayfarer - Christ came 2000 years ago and if He had returned this discourse could not be held. When Christ returns to the earth all life as we know it will cease perminately.

 

Of course you believe this. Otherwise, we would, together, be trying to convince Nelg and others that this perspective and understanding of His Return is simply theologically based.  It is a product of man's always active imagination, in other words. Because it conveniently ignores many other biblical prophecies (which I'll post later).

 

The reason we must, and are compelled out of love to hold these discussions, is becasue all of us are seeking a deeper and more committed, more correct relationship with our Lord and savior.

 

Here again is the presumption that Christ has not already come. ATHIM, try your best to suspend disbelief.

 

Is it not the same Satan from the garden who is constantly seeking a way to trap man...

 

Ahhhh...Satan. Where to begin? But this topic, this reality of evil must be dealt with once and for all. Because, again, Jesus forewarned that ALL will be SNARED. That means all of us, including you. Clerics are the spiritual leaders and guides. Jesus knew that they, especially, would come among His flock wearing "sheep's clothing." This warning has been preached ever since His Crucifixion, but distortedly so. For example, Christians have been victims of our own spiritually corrupted pastors and deacons more so than from people outside of Christianity. Thus, the subject of these wolves is highly, highly relevant concerning His Return as "a thief in the night" when it will be difficult to discern that He actually came. 

 

The Holy Bible already gave us the likely scenario of their role when He Returns. It was the Jewish clerics who represented (and still so) "wolves in sheep's clothing" when they denied Him and acted against Him. Agreed? If appropriate, I'll say more in other posts. 

 

.....we have and will be the target of his traps till Christ returns and corrects all things....

 

Agreed!!!

 

.....we are only seekers of the truth and though we disagree, it is my hope that we remain civil, open minded and loving.

 

Absolutely agreed!!!

 

In truth it is the challenge presented to me by my Protestant brothers, that I love, that has inspired and forced me to dig deeper and understand more about my own faith.

 

Wonderful!!!  We all can learn from one another.

 

Stay in peace Gods love is sufficient, but for Nelg and Markinsas and I, a little healthy scappling can only help as long as it is done for the right reasons. Christ was not a, lets all just get along kind of person. He rocked the boat and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us all hungry and struggling on every level,this is how we grow.

 

ATHIM, yes, yes, I truly want to "rock" your theological boat.

 

ATHIM, thank you for responding. I was wondering if my words to you, though sincere, were too harsh. It's strange that we find ourselves together in the same arena. I hope you will find me a worthy adversary. For, on one hand, we are true adversaries when it comes to the topic of whether Christ returned as a thief in the night. On the other hand, you are my brother in Christ, which means that we share a common devotion and love for Truth in all its manifestations. Truth is one; it's the mind of Man that divides it. And let there be no doubt that truth is synonymous with God and His will for us.

[Nelg]

Nelg, although I will be placing comments within the text of your post, I want to, first, commend the writer for his/her eloquent and almost mystical prose. Was it you? I hope so. For the writer demonstrates not only a masterly command of the English language but the desire to employ it in service to preaching the word of God.

Thank you Wayfarer. I plead guilty of being the writer.  It was something that I composed yesterday to place on my Facebook page.  It seem to fit into some of our discussions and especially the comments about the times in which we live and the possible coming judgment of the nations.  I take a little more time and care when I am writing those articles.  On some of these threads I do as most of us do, throw down words without considering grammar, spelling, sentence structure.  But thanks for your kind words.  I am looking forward to your comments.  

[Wayfarer]

Wayfarer, I just wanted to include this. There is a theological solution. It's The Bible. And yes, Jesus Christ has come. ONCE. He is coming again, and although the Second Coming is described as "a thief in the night", He never said "ALL would be asleep".  The reference was to pay attention to prophecy. The Second Coming has not happened yet. The whole world will know when that happens. If you think the world is bad now, "you ain't seen nothin' yet".

 

Orthophonic (what a handle),

 

I hope you remain involved in this thread, even as an observer. Many of your insights are replicated in this present discourse. I'm limited in ability. Therefore, I can't possibly respond to you personally and properly every time you make a contribution, even though that is my desire. Only if your comments are highly unusual and insightful and, thus, not brought forth by the 'scholars' (ATHIM and Nelg) will I attempt an appropriate response.

 

Good to see you here.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Wayfarer

[billy goat]

Nelg, although I will be placing comments within the text of your post, I want to, first, commend the writer for his/her eloquent and almost mystical prose. Was it you? I hope so. For the writer demonstrates not only a masterly command of the English language but the desire to employ it in service to preaching the word of God.

 

Yes indeed.  Nelg - I find your responses truly inspiring.  I have to confess admiration in your rightly dividing the word and the peace you render.  We all see how the word is in your heart and this challenges us to keep at it.  I must admit I have been running from a call to ministry and the happiness it renders.  I guess I'll do what I can with what I have in these final days.  Thanks. BG 

[Nelg]

It amazes me how many people try to make this so complicated. Jesus spoke about the word of God having no effect because of the traditions of men. It was never intended to be so complicated. Paul summed it up in one sentence in the 16th chapter of Acts.

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

When I read this it I don't see any of the chants or beads or ceremonies that man has decided is also required.

 

Roadrunner

 

This is interesting Roadrunner.  No, I don't think it is complicated either.

Now on the day of Pentecost after Peter's preaching concerning Christ and the resurrection he states these words: 

 

"Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brethren, what shall we do?' And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.' And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!' So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there wre added that day about three thousand souls."  (Act 2:37-40)

 

Now how complicated is that?  Not at all complicated.  

[waterman13]

(as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.)

Profound statement: It's all about Him, not us.

WM13

[Wayfarer]

Nelg and ATHIM,

 

Durn!!! I must be losing it, or just doing too many things. It seems that my last post to both of you was removed. Only the mods could have removed it. But without explanation? Can't be! Or perhaps it was accidental. Hmmmm....

 

I'll rewrite it, tomorrow.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Wayfarer