General Robert E. Lee 1863

[sandfly]

AMEN

[magawatt]

Why don't you tell us how you really feel?!

Great rant +1

I for one am tired of the race card.

I did not hold slaves. I don't think it is possible for anyone free or enslaved from that period in time to be alive.

Must we continue to point at the "splinter in your brothers eye"?

[magawatt]

Why don't you tell us how you really feel?!

Great rant +1

I for one am tired of the race card.

I did not hold slaves. I don't think it is possible for anyone free or enslaved from that period in time to be alive.

Must we continue to point at the "splinter in your brothers eye"?

I agree that all who were alive during the Civil War have passed away. That's why it's called history. Most of the men who fought for the Confederacy weren't slave owners, but they fought for the preservation the the states to choose to be a slave state. The violence and contention in Missouri and Kansas could not be resolved. That so many young men threw their lives away a cause that they had little stake in confirms the premise many have stated in this thread that governments do manipulate the masses.

[Muleslayer]

I agree that all who were alive during the Civil War have passed away. That's why it's called history. Most of the men who fought for the Confederacy weren't slave owners, but they fought for the preservation the the states to choose to be a slave state. The violence and contention in Missouri and Kansas could not be resolved. That so many young men threw their lives away a cause that they had little stake in confirms the premise many have stated in this thread that governments do manipulate the masses.

And I agree that the civil war was damn shame brother against brother.

I objected to you throwing the race card. It is done and past as you said that is why it is called history.

From my point of view we as a nation have taken steps to right that wrong.

We need to let it go and move onward and upward to the benefit of all humankind.

Saying shame on us for the wrongs of the past does not help.

[MyLadiesDaddy]

I agree that all who were alive during the Civil War have passed away. That's why it's called history. Most of the men who fought for the Confederacy weren't slave owners, but they fought for the preservation the the states to choose to be a slave state. The violence and contention in Missouri and Kansas could not be resolved. That so many young men threw their lives away a cause that they had little stake in confirms the premise many have stated in this thread that governments do manipulate the masses.

 

​I want to try and approach this from a different angle, there is a rather strong movement 

 

in this country to stop people from eating beef. At the present time not many of us are raise

 

cattle. Now if PETA were to start a war to overthrow the government so they can force everyone 

 

to become vegan and we were called up to fight in that war, we would probably do so. So say that 

 

PETA wins that war and 150yrs from now someone was to say that we, you and I fought for the 

 

rite of states to raise cattle for the sole purpose of eating them. Would that be an accurate 

 

statement as to why you and I fought?

 

No! we would have done what we did for the preservation of our way of life  not really thinking about

 

the issue of eating beef. Beef was something that simply happened that you and I didn't really give

 

a whole lot of thought to. And maybe it is wrong but it just wasn't, in our time, contemplated much.

 

That is a radical and strange scenario but essentially it is what your suggesting. 

 

As most people didn't own slaves it simply wasn't an issue with them and they most likely weren't

 

thinking of slavery when they went to war, but of there rite to live life as the constitution says they

 

could.

 

Now one here has claimed to have been a descendant of Mr. Lee, and I know that man to be of 

 

African decent. I know how it is that a black man can be related to a white man from that era. You

 

see if you travel to Macon Ga. you will find many blacks that have the Irish name Turner. My sir name.

 

The way this has happened is that once slavery was abolished not all slaves wanted to leave there

 

homes. Most slave owners were not evil people, but were farmers taking advantage of cheap labor. 

 

I say cheap as a slave still had cost related to them. For the largest plantation in Georgia, owned by

 

one of my forefathers, this was the case. Not only did my family treat the slaves they owned with 

 

respect and dignity so much so that the slaves when freed stayed at the plantation, received parcels of 

 

land for there own, and worked for a salary at the very same plantation where they were previously slaves.

 

The slaves owned by the Turner plantation loved there owners and took there last name as there own when

 

freed. Now I'm not suggesting that slavery was anything but horrific. I am only stating that the pure negative

 

stigma that Hollywood has made the venture of slavery to be false. Would that I would have been alive at the

 

time, for it would have been my sole reason in life to cause freedom in the south for all men. But had I, " the son of 

 

a slave owner", been alive at that time and saw the government doing to the constitution what the Federalist 

 

were doing I would most certainly have gone to war with the south. Not ever thinking of the issue of slavery, that

 

I myself would have been fighting against. If you don't believe that most slave owners were as I have described 

 

then ask yourself some questions. First, why is it that most slaves of the south, when freed stayed in the south?

 

Why did most slaves take the surname of there owners when freed. 

 

The real tragedy of slavery came from those that didn't own slaves after they were freed. You see Lincoln new 

 

that he could make slavery the issue of the war and thereby hide the truth. That he was subverting the constitution

 

and changing America from a free country into a corporate nation, thereby legally making us all slaves. Slaves that

 

only think there free. What people did to blacks after the Emancipation was, imo, far worse than owning slaves. 

 

But, and not to justify there actions at all, it was because Lincoln made blacks the issue that enslaved us all. 

 

And that my friend the people who fought in the south new. 

 

Now I have admitted to being the, "son of a former slave owner", and I suspect that from your tone you are the,

 

"son of a former slave", and I have spent my life trying to make M. Luther's dream come true. You are my brother quite 

 

​literally in my view. I pray that you will not only receive my words as they were meant, with love, but that you will 

 

understand them.

 

p.s.

 

I'm not in any way suggesting that some slave owners didn't treat there slaves with respect, only that this was not

 

the norm. Still, again, the whole thing was a disgrace to our nation.   

[magawatt]

Muleslayer:: ...And I agree that the civil war was damn shame brother against brother.

I objected to you throwing the race card. It is done and past as you said that is why it is called history.
From my point of view we as a nation have taken steps to right that wrong.
We need to let it go and move onward and upward to the benefit of all humankind.
Saying shame on us for the wrongs of the past does not help.

 

To discuss General Lee and ignore the context of his career as the outstanding Officer in the conflict is disingenuous.

To note that slavery was a leading issue in the conflict in no way casts aspersion on anyone today.

 

 

 

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[Muleslayer]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I will let you have the last word.

Have a nice life

[magawatt]

What this thread has taught me is that the issues involved are much more complex than I imagined. I don't apologize for my comments about General Lee; if he had honored his oath to the Constitution tens of thousands of soldiers on both sides would not have died (my opinion). I also don't think it is only a state's rights issue but a cultural one as well.

Like many New Yorkers looking towards retirement we are considering North Carolina. If we wind up there I promise I will immerse myself in the history and culture of the area (unless I'm banned!).

[Maggie123]

 Megawatt

You did a fine job in this thread... I agree with most all that you said.

Sorry you had to take such a beating for it but I admire your convictions.

 

It is a huge stretch to deny the civil war was not about preserving the right to hold slaves...

twisting it as much as people might want to twist it.

 

Glad you still have your sense of humor.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Maggie123

[Francie26]

Don't forget that the liberty Lee prayed to preserve included the right to hold slaves.

That's true.  But he knew the entire country, both south and north, would fall if the South withdrew from the union, and the south would not give up their slaves. They were an agricultural economy, and even though there were huge plantations, all cotton growers needed slaves to tend the crops. Cotton was still so cheap that it couldn't be grown as a cash crop without free labor, and the South was not going to give Lincoln time to establish industry in the south to shift their economy base. I don't remember where I read it, but at one time I read that Lincoln had plans to help the south build much more industry, much like that in the north, after which he planned to free the slaves.  But he couldn't free them as long as the south kept trying to leave the Union. So that war was fought to keep the nation together, not to sustain slavery.  

[magawatt]

Maggs: I don't mind the heat. I figure any exchange where I can express an honest opinion and learn something is well worth it.

I grew up in a home where debate was encouraged. My sister can still trash me at will.

Good thing she has little interest in the dinar or everyone would be pizzed off!

[Francie26]

 

This is exactly what I am trying to say. You are 100% correct. That WHO should have been 

 

much more clarified. But lets not forget that our government is doing all that it can to enslave 

 

us, and divide us. Enslave us through financial imprisonment, divide us through any means 

 

possible. Whether, over color, religion, sexual preference, political views, or even the body 

 

mass of someone. Now why do you think it is so important for Uncle Sam to want us divided? 

 

Because that way were fighting each other and not paying attention to what there doing.

 

And what are they doing? You say your not happy that Lee fought against your country, yet

 

the Government is giving your country away to the United Nations every day. Tearing it apart

 

piece by piece. Is that not worth defending? As I always say, this isn't a black and white thing,

 

this isn't a liberal or conservative thing, this is an American thing. And Americans don't give 

 

away there freedoms for ANYTHING. And they sure don't give away there rites to a group of 

 

thugs called the United Nation. It is my country, it is your country, IT IS OUR COUNTRY. 

 

​Not Washington's.   

 

 

 

Our founding fathers also knew the south would not give up their slaves.  So first they needed to get the nation established and stable, and then they could turn to the problem of slavery.  It is a shame that situation ever arose here. It should never have happened. But I suppose all countries live with situations passed on to them by their forefathers. And if we have to lament that one, so be it. It was a bad one. But they also gave us the mightiest nation in the entire world, one with more freedoms than have ever existed anywhere else before, and those freedoms exist for both black and white.  So it is killing a dead horse to keep fighting about it.  We just need to get up, get on with it, and build our lives. Time is short, and time is flying. Frankly, it is a complete God-given miracle that we have such a nation, with opportunity for everyone.  We may have to work for it, however.

[Francie26]

Well, my apologies to everyone. I was busy just typing away on two similar responses, and the when I looked back, I saw that I was unaware of another entire discussion going on. So I was out of the proverbial loop.  I didn't mean to intrude on the other discussion. Sorry if I did so. As I look back, I see that I probably need to read O'Reilly's book, Lincoln. I seem to need a refresher. Have any of you read it? I just read a novel based on a true story about the woman who became America's first female surgeon by learning how to operate on the wounded soldiers in the Civil War. 

Well, my apologies to everyone. I was busy just typing away on two similar responses, and the when I looked back, I saw that I was unaware of another entire discussion going on. So I was out of the proverbial loop.  I didn't mean to intrude on the other discussion. Sorry if I did so. As I look back, I see that I probably need to read O'Reilly's book, Lincoln. I seem to need a refresher. Have any of you read it? I just read a novel based on a true story about the woman who became America's first female surgeon by learning how to operate on the wounded soldiers in the Civil War. 

Since I was rattling on while others were in a more serious discussion, I keep trying to wiggle out of it. But . . . can't be done. So I'll stop trying. lol

[Maggie123]

Maggs: I don't mind the heat. I figure any exchange where I can express an honest opinion and learn something is well worth it.

I grew up in a home where debate was encouraged. My sister can still trash me at will.

Good thing she has little interest in the dinar or everyone would be pizzed off!

 

   

[pattyangel]

This was written by Robert E. Lee after the Civil War.  It is still timely and true for today. Even the General knew that our lack of holiness, our not being the light has allowed darkness to prevail.  So prayer was something he urged his soldiers to do and encourage them not to turn from the Lord. 

 

"Soldiers! Let us humble ourselves before the Lord, our God, asking through Christ forgiveness of our sins, beseeching the aid of the God of our forefathers in the defense of our homes and our liberties, thanking Him for His past blessings, and imploring their continuance upon our cause and our people."

 

"Knowing that intercessory prayer is our mightiest weapon and the supreme call for all Christians today, I pleadingly urge our people everywhere to pray.  Believing that prayer is the greatest contribution that our people can make in this critical hour, I humbly urge that we take time to pray - to really pray."

 

"Let  there be prayer at sunup, at noonday, at sundown, at midnight - all through the day.  Let us pray for our children, our youth, our aged, our pastors, our homes.  Let us pray for the churches."

 

"Let us pray for ourselves, that we may not lose the word 'concern' out of our Christian vocabulary.  Let us pray for our nation.  Let us pray for those who have never known Jesus Christ and His redeeming love, for moral forces everywhere, for our national leaders.  Let us prayer be our passion.  Let prayer be our practice."

 

General Robert E. Lee 1863

 

My intention for this thread was all about the "prayer".  I was hoping the words that were presented in this prayer would make us aware what is missing in America.  I don't care what General or ranking officer it came from, I was able to put all that aside, I just thought it was a beautiful prayer and wanted to share.  No ill intentions. 

 

We are in a time where our religious liberties are being threaten, and its beginning with our Military.  Its in the media, we can't just sit back and deny it. 

 

Maggie, please don't think its me - negging you.

Edited June 16, 2013 by pattyangel

[MyLadiesDaddy]

Maggs: I don't mind the heat. I figure any exchange where I can express an honest opinion and learn something is well worth it.

I grew up in a home where debate was encouraged. My sister can still trash me at will.

Good thing she has little interest in the dinar or everyone would be pizzed off!

 

And it was a good debate. I don't see where anyone can say that I gave you a bashing. 

 

Unless calling you my brother is considered such. Of course maybe in some accusing 

 

members here families, that may be bashing. Would explain the need for some to pretend.

 

No, my brother, you and I are Americans and we don't have to see eye to eye. That is the 

 

beauty of being an American. As I stated I grew up in the south, Georgia and then Mississippi.

 

That is where I learned my history from. However, neither of us was there and so we really

 

don't know what went down. You cant change the past.  But I can control my own future, to some 

 

extent. I can decide that I am not going to hate simply because someone doesn't think or look like

 

I do. As Michael Jackson sang, "I'm starting with the man in the mirror". 

 

I enjoyed our conversation, thank you!   

P.S. Patty my friend. You know that I will defend and promote our Jesus every time I 

 

get a chance. You'r right, this thread was about prayer and I guess I didn't help to keep 

 

it on topic. Forgive me that please. It's just that I have strong feelings about how to get 

 

passed our past. No matter who said the prayer you quoted it is without a doubt that if 

 

we don't pray we will fall. And as I said before, I am very much praying for you. 

 

Your friend, Scotty.

[pattyangel]

Thanks Scotty !!!

[magawatt]

Francie Francie 26:

Yes, I believe preservation of the Union was foremost for Lincoln.

Lady Grace's daddy.

I guess humans can adapt to anything, benign enslavement being one of them. People have argued that we are enslaved to our debt and as long as we as entertained with TV and cell phones we are docile. I'd like to the to think that we would miss freedom of movement and choice even if we had never experienced them.

[magawatt]

Patty Angel, I'm sorry that my comments derailed the thread. Your concern is genuine. To ask those in Service to go into harm's way without the comfort of Clergy makes mockery of our motto of In God We Trust.

[SgtFuryUSCZ]

***///

 

http://townhall.com/columnists/toddstarnes/2013/04/30/religious-groups-fear-christian-purge-from-military-n1583009/page/full

 

Some do not want Our Lord talked about nor shared with

Our fellow Soldiers and have sworn to prosecute them to the fullest extent of Man's law.....

 

Do not prosthletize or you will be Court Martialed.... 

Hide Jesus, keep God to yourself....

or --- choose to speak of Our Lord and  

face the wrath of a Federal Government run amok with a political correctness that is destroying it...

 

Obama's administration now says he is your Lord & Master and HE calls the shots in Washington.

 

Until he gets pushed against the wall by REAL Patriots... then he runs...

 

Until he gets called on the carpet because he's been caught doing something ILLEGAL to Patriots,

then LIES about  wanting to do harm to Americans HE HIMSELF HAS PUBLICLY REFERRED TO

AS THE ENEMY THAT SHOULD BE DESTROYED.

 

 

Your concern is genuine. To ask those in Service to go into harm's way without the comfort of Clergy makes mockery of our motto of In God We Trust.

 

 

AMEN.

[Rayzur]

LGD...from one military person to another.... from an AirForce LC to a Marine brother .......you are one right on dude these days... I don't know if there was a slight shift, or you are now more clearly and definitively articulating the position you've always had.... but I've really enjoyed what you've had to say here these last few days... Your strength has always been apparent, but your leadership is showing up more... clarifying the foundation for people to rally around in defending what we hold to be the American way. The destructive forces of division is what will kill those who continue to stand in the isolation of their differences. It is only united that we will successfully stand against the tyranny challenging the foundation of this country at every turn. And with God at the helm through Christ, we will prevail.

 

 

And apart from these thoughts, I also have to say... Maggie, in contrast to the judgmental statement tossed out in this thread....  I know that I know you are Christian. I know that you clearly state you are Christian. I also understand why you may not have felt the need to defend your self to a human being, who is not Divine, who is not God, who does not have any place on this planet to stand in judgement of you and your relationship with Christ.... However, and I hope you don't mind, but I want to honor your right as a Christian to be  acknowledged as a Christian (and hope that you don't throw a chair at me for saying something about it). Words are powerful and I want to acknowledge what is true in keeping the record correct.... 

 

Life is messed up enough right now without people thinking they need to run around judging the merits of another's relationship with Christ.... or worse yet, calling a Christian a non-Christian as a means of bashing, or discrediting a person. That's going too far in my world, and it needs to stop here and now. 

[EagleEye]

Bravo Rayzur Bravo !!!    

[MyLadiesDaddy]

LGD...from one military person to another.... from an AirForce LC to a Marine brother .......you are one right on dude these days... I don't know if there was a slight shift, or you are now more clearly and definitively articulating the position you've always had.... but I've really enjoyed what you've had to say here these last few days... Your strength has always been apparent, but your leadership is showing up more... clarifying the foundation for people to rally around in defending what we hold to be the American way. The destructive forces of division is what will kill those who continue to stand in the isolation of their differences. It is only united that we will successfully stand against the tyranny challenging the foundation of this country at every turn. And with God at the helm through Christ, we will prevail.  And apart from these thoughts, I also have to say... Maggie, in contrast to the judgmental statement tossed out in this thread....  I know that I know you are Christian. I know that you clearly state you are Christian. I also understand why you may not have felt the need to defend your self to a human being, who is not Divine, who is not God, who does not have any place on this planet to stand in judgement of you and your relationship with Christ.... However, and I hope you don't mind, but I want to honor your right as a Christian to be  acknowledged as a Christian (and hope that you don't throw a chair at me for saying something about it). Words are powerful and I want to acknowledge what is true in keeping the record correct....  Life is messed up enough right now without people thinking they need to run around judging the merits of another's relationship with Christ.... or worse yet, calling a Christian a non-Christian as a means of bashing, or discrediting a person. That's going too far in my world, and it needs to stop here and now.

Why thank you very much for your kind words. My belief is the same, but

My walk with Christ is growing stronger. I have realized how much of my

Life I have waisted on empty words that only stop the will of God in my life.

So I decided to seek his help and get out of his way. For anyone who doesn't believe in God

All I can say is you should have read my words before I let him have control.

I stand amazed at how fast he can change not only what I say, but even how I feel.

GOD IS GOOD.

[EagleEye]

GOD IS GOOD. 

 

 

ALL THE TIME !!!

 

 

[waterman13]

Here just a small piece from an on line book by Stephen Jones (of God's-Kingdom-Ministries.net) that is really good called "The Laws of Spiritual Warfare" it's a really good read:

 

Military Defense and God’s Protection

Let me say at the outset that it is NOT a sin to be a soldier in the
military. It is not the ideal occupation, of course, but neither is it a sin.
There are certain realities in the world, which make the military a
necessity. It is necessary not only because there are evil men in the
world, but also because the Christian believers do not have the level of
spiritual maturity and faith to believe that God can actually protect their
nation from their enemies without help from the military. And so, in a
world where men’s faith is imperfect, men rely upon the military for
their protection.
The fact is, even in the Old Testament times, God played down the
importance of military might. God clearly taught the people to rely upon
divine protection, rather than their military strategy. In Deut. 17:14-20
we find the divine instructions that the king of Israel was to follow. Few
of their kings actually took heed to these things, and so it became more
prophetic of how the King of Kings would rule Israel and the world.
Jesus, being perfect, always follows His own law, for He was the
Lawgiver who spoke to Moses. Deut. 17:16 gives us one of the divine
instructions for kings:
16 "Moreover, he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor shall
he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses,
since the Lord has said to you, You shall never again return
that way."
In ancient times, horses were used for the cavalry. Whoever had the
most horses had a great advantage in warfare. Nowadays the cavalry
rides in armored tanks. But God says that any king relying upon “horses”
will inevitably bring the nation back to Egypt—that is, he will put the
people back into bondage.
This is what will accompany an “arms race.” America has known
such an arms race, and its arms buildup has been in direct proportion to
our loss of individual freedoms. This condition has now come fully into
fruition with the creation of the Department of Homeland Security in the
wake of the Sept. 11, 2001 destruction of the Twin Towers in New York
City. In re-classifying American citizens who oppose the government as
“enemy combatants,” instead of as criminals, they are able to justify
holding citizens without trial or due process of law. If left unchecked,
this innovation will only expand to include more and more American
citizens as time passes.
Isaiah shows us that this same problem existed in his day. The
prophet says in Isaiah 30, beginning in verse 1,
1 "Woe to the rebellious children, declares the Lord, who
execute a plan, but not Mine, and make an alliance, but not of
My Spirit, in order to add sin to sin; 2 who proceed down to
Egypt, without consulting Me, to take refuge in the safety of
Pharaoh, and to seek shelter in the shadow of Egypt. 3
Therefore the safety of Pharaoh will be your shame."
The prophet was speaking of the natural tendency to seek safety in
armaments, rather than by turning to God in repentance and in
obedience. Isaiah said that reliance upon one’s weapons of war for one’s
protection is to bring the people back into the bondage of “Egypt.” The
people had rejected the divine law, and as a result, God’s judgment was
coming upon the nation of Israel. But instead of repenting, they chose to
arm themselves against divine judgment “to add sin to sin.” Again, in
verses 12 and 13 we read,
12 "Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel, Since you have
rejected this word and have put your trust in oppression and
guile, and have relied on them, 13 Therefore this iniquity will
be to you like a breach about to fall, a bulge in a high wall,
whose collapse comes suddenly in an instant. . . ."
16 "And you said, “No, for we will flee on horses,” therefore you
shall flee! “And we will ride on swift horses,” therefore those
who pursue you shall be swift."
Here the prophet makes it clear that he is talking about depending
upon horses purchased from Egypt, not Egypt itself. The people were not
planning any trips to Egypt. Egypt was merely the symbol of oppression.
When Israel depended upon horses for their protection, instead of
repenting of their lawlessness, the people were placed into bondage.
It is the same today. America has much need of repentance, and the
event of Sept. 11, 2001 was a very important sign that God’s hand of
protection has been removed from our nation. Yet instead of repenting,
our leaders decided to defend ourselves from the enemies that God raised
up to judge us. As Isaiah said, we added sin to sin. We have decided to
purchase more arms from the great “industrial-military complex” (as
President Eisenhower once called it). God said that such thinking would
bring us into bondage to “Egypt.”
And so, American citizens were rounded up and incarcerated without
being charged with any crime. The government was given the right to tap
the telephones and search houses or businesses without a warrant. The
basic freedoms that the American Constitution gave us in the beginning
have now been entirely lost.

 

The whole book is about prayer, hearing God, and how the Word shows that it's the spiritual battle that needs to be fought FIRST. Then if you are told (by God) to fight the physical battle, then and only then shall you go to war. The Hebrew nation in the desert is a very good example God has left us a good account of how and how not to act. We need to read it and follow it on a personal level and on a national level.

WM13

Edited June 17, 2013 by waterman13