Let there be R.V.

[HughJeffin Byrd]

Maybe God has planned to hold off on the RV this long to make everybody do a little soul searching. Make everybody realize what really matters. And as my Dad has said when my brothers and sisters got allowance "don't spend it all on gum and candy".

Maybe God delayed it so I could finally have came across this through my venture down the rabbit hole of conspiracies, and I could now HOPEFULLY prove to people around me that this is in fact real.

[TQueezy]

[/color]

Thanks for pushing bible rhetoric at me and proving that you can only speak from an aged book that has little relevance in many ways to what is going on around us...

Sigh...

It just never fails with Christians of this sort. Sorry I brought this up guys. Another fail.

[Boiler]

Bamagirl-beautifully said. I couldn't agree with you more. I respected you before, but now at a whole other level. I look forward to you being blessed by this amazing opportunity.

[HughJeffin Byrd]

Interesting post from one of the alternative news sites I visit:

May i ask the name of that site please?

http://nesaranews.blogspot.com/

The guy who runs it posts whatever he thinks is important/interesting...I'm not really into the galactic federation of light stuff but some people are...

[WallyWeaver]

Thanks for pushing bible rhetoric at me and proving that you can only speak from an aged book that has little relevance in many ways to what is going on around us...

Sigh...

It just never fails with Christians of this sort. Sorry I brought this up guys. Another fail.

I was definitely expecting a more thoughtful response.

Sorry that the Bible is irrelevant for you, friend.

[HisHands]

Thanks for pushing bible rhetoric at me and proving that you can only speak from an aged book that has little relevance in many ways to what is going on around us...

Sigh...

It just never fails with Christians of this sort. Sorry I brought this up guys. Another fail.

I am sorry that you feel this way about God's Word. You cannot ask Christians to explain their beliefs and not incorporate His Word when it is the road map for their life. It is the inspired Word of God. If you truely do not believe that, we probably will not provide you what you want to hear. We simply cannot take the Bible out of the equation when it is the basis of our beliefs. I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinions relating to this post. However, have a great night and I will pray that you find what you are seeking for somewhere along the line, and you will surely be in my prayers.

[HughJeffin Byrd]

Since we all know we're getting a new financial system...I guess information like this will be rampant:

JP Morgan-MF Global-Euro Gate Escalates

EXPLOSIVE BREAKING NEWS:

Awakening Americans: Behind the scenes intelligence briefings ALL patriotAmericans MUST know...the REAL facts and truth the corporate-controlled fascist, extortion-friendly U. S. media covers up

EXPLOSIVE Back Breaking News

JP Morgan-MF Global-Euro Gate Escalates

by Tom Heneghan

International Intelligence Expert

Sunday March 25, 2012

http://www.faz.net/polopoly_fs/1.990671.1311925939!/image/656152717.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_aufmacher_klein/656152717.jpghttp://www.investmentnews.com/storyimage/CI/20111106/REG/311069977/AR/AR-311069977.jpg&ampmaxw=580&ampq=85

UNITED STATES of America - It can now be reported that the U.S. Senate Committee on Banking has new evidence showing that JP Morgan had a $200 million overdraft aka a second margin call on the London LIFFE Exchange three days before the MF Global bankruptcy fiasco was triggered.

The second margin call (the first margin call was four days earlier for $175 million) dealt with cross-collateralized, compounded naked euro currency put options that were written by JP Morgan with the transactions being placed through the CME Group and the aforementioned London LIFFE Exchange.

We can now divulge that, thanks to PROMIS software, MF Global took the opposite side of the trade.

Note: The fact that MF Global took the opposite side of the trade is a significant development and it completely torpedoes the ISDA's (International Swaps and Derivatives Association) legal standing that declared the latest Greek bailout a non-credit event rather than what it really is, a Greek default.

The ISDA's decision has temporarily rewarded crooked banks, as well as Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan, and screwed the hedge funds as well as the looted customer segregated accounts that were tied to MF Global.

The fact that two margin calls were issued in a span of one week against JP Morgan is clearly a game changer.

The first margin call aka the overdraft was triggered when the JP Morgan SWIFT wire transfer (to pay for their derivative trades) was rejected by the London LIFFE Exchange after the Dallas Federal Reserve Bank refused to honor the JP Morgan float aka line of credit.

Dallas Fed President and CEO Robert W. Fisher actually notified the New York Fed on that day that JP Morgan was using TARP money (Troubled Relief Asset Program) to write their euro currency option derivatives.

This illegal trading done by JP Morgan violated the terms of the 2008 Bush-Pelosi bank bailout that forbid banks like Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan from using U.S. Taxpayers' money to engage in any type of derivative trading.

What followed was the largest 24-hour crime spree aka money laundry in financial history.

Forty-eight hours after JP Morgan's line of credit was rejected (their electronic check bounced creating an overdraft), a second larger margin call was issued to JP Morgan, which set off the following change of events:

Immediately financial terrorist Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan phoned Federal Reserve Chairman Bernard Bernanke, U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and CFTC Chairman Gary Gensler and discussed his predicament.

Within an hour the CME Group re-issued the second margin call singling out only MF Global and removing JP Morgan from its liability.

Fifteen minutes later Jamie Dimon called MF Global CEO Jon Corzine threatening his life and demanding that MF Global meet the $200 million margin call that was originally issued for JP Morgan.

One hour later the crooked ISDA ruled the MF Global trades to be null and void, which then allowed JP Morgan and Jamie Dimon to short the MF Global stock and then, with the approval of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York laundered the proceeds into the London LIFFE Exchange, and issued new naked derivatives which would be used in the latest Greek-Euro bailout ponzi scheme.

Note: Dallas Federal Reserve President and CEO Richard W. Fisher immediately phoned Fed Chairman Bernanke to protest this latest JP Morgan money laundry involving customer segregated accounts.

Bernanke told Fisher, and I quote "Timothy Geithner calls the shots".

Reference: The Federal Reserve Bank of New York tried to disguise this ponzi scheme by first moving the MF Global customer segregated funds through the Dominion Bank of Toronto, Canada and then on to the London LIFFE Exchange.

At this hour we can divulge that Dallas Fed President and CEO Richard W. Fisher is cooperating with U.S. Marshals who are investigating this financial treason and will shortly offer his resignation.

P.S. We can now also report that JP Morgan and MF Global had a joint custodial account with a side clearing agreement with the noted derivative clearing house Maiden Lane LLC.

We can now also reveal that the joint JP Morgan-MF Global custodial account had a common email address with the financial officers of both JP Morgan and MF Global having access and ability to receive and send emails to each other.

This joint account specialized in using crooked high-frequency trading aka 3-second electronic front running in creating artificial wide spreads in the forex foreign currency futures markets that guaranteed that both MF Global and JP Morgan could not lose on any of their foreign currency transactions.

In other words, folks, both Jamie Dimon and Jon Corzine were running a ponzi scheme.

P.P.S. We can now report that the crooked CFTC, NFA and SEC issued a clean audit report for both MF Global and JP Morgan three months before the aforementioned MF Global-JP Morgan financial debacle.

It is clear the alleged financial regulators were bribed because new evidence now in possession of Senator Carl Levin, Democrat of Michigan, indicates that JP Morgan was in violation of both CFTC and SEC rules concerning proper capitalization of their assets versus their margined derivative liability exposure.

We can now divulge that at the time the JP Morgan audit was issued its margined derivative exposure exceeded their capital assets by 2500 to 1.

Note: Word is out on the street that JP Morgan made a deal with the crooked aforementioned financial regulators to throw their broker dealers under the bus in return for the regulators to look the other way when it came to JP Morgan's massive financial criminal misconduct.

In closing, we can divulge that thanks to the efforts of patriotic elements of the U.S. military, the U.S. Marshal Service, International Monetary Fund President Christine Lagarde and Russian President Vladimir Putin, the repatriation of U.S. dollars back to the U.S. Treasury continues, which will lead to the final implementation of the Wanta-Reagan-Mitterrand Protocols.

[dog53]

Can I get a amen ! I mean can I get a AMEN !!!!!

[TQueezy]

I was definitely expecting a more thoughtful response.

Sorry that the Bible is irrelevant for you, friend.

I'm sorry, but your response to me was overwhelming. After so many years of trying to come to my own terms of how to handle my relationship with God and constantly fighting the sheeple mentality of organized Christianity, it's hard to read bible verses proving my "opinions" wrong on something because of written text from so long ago...

Do you want me to tell you your undisputed truth is the winner? That my opinions are useless in the face of God's truth in His Word? Fine. You're right. The Bible is the ultimate authority and His Word is the path of life for all Christians, myself included. I'm just too lazy, too selfish, too rooted in my sinful human desires to put any kind of store in the words that will lead me to him in the end. I'm tired. Tired of it all. I'm not necessarily a see to believe type of person, but I'm certainly not an enthusiastic, "Wow, look how great God is!" because of what is written in the Bible and seemingly forced on situations that happen in life...

Yes, I'm bitter. You're probably right, I know nothing about the Bible... except that you're wrong. I know enough. I just don't care. You can use it if you want to in order to prove your points and argue against my opinions, but in the end, I'm simply arguing that attributing the actions of a country whose religious beliefs fly in the face of God and their imminent change of currency exchange rate, to an act of God that is a plan for His children's lives, is just... it doesn't sit right with me. Feels dirty.

My parents always used to do that too. I guess I'm just so tired of hearing the same thing out of Christians' mouths... hungry for something different... thirsty for something unique, exciting, something else besides the tired, proven, untarnished truths in the Bible. I don't want to be mean and say "get some new material" but that's pretty much how I really feel. If I knew the Bible and could quote it, I still wouldn't. I'd paraphrase verses and use my own language to talk to non-believers. I'm not saying my way would be better, but I'd be more comfortable doing it that way.

I just hope you realize that Bible verses to many people instantly fill some with hatred, others with worry, and yet others indifferent. Never does it make anyone comfortable except other Christians that regularly use them. Meet your opponents "students" on their own terms. Be a good adaptive teacher. You'll say "I can't tell others about God without using His Word! It wouldn't work, it's the basis of my beliefs!" Yes, of course you can not use the Bible to explain God to people. It's easy. And also... thank you for your post. Because it truly helped me think that nothing will ever change until either I'm dead or the rest of the world adopts my way of thinking.

And in that... I am very grateful. For a lot of different reasons. Stay happy.

[rothsdad]

AMEN!!!

[bamagirl]

TQueezy...without quoting a verse or anything let me tell you what my belief givs me....peace, comfort, constant companionship and more love for this world and His creations than I could possibly describe.......just remember that we don't always get across what we are trying to say the right way, we are only human.....I wish nothing but the best for you my friend, no matter the difference in our beliefs.

Bamagirl-beautifully said. I couldn't agree with you more. I respected you before, but now at a whole other level. I look forward to you being blessed by this amazing opportunity.

Thank you Boiler, you are quite awesome yourself!!

[watercop]

Apparently, you do not read the Bible very much. There is a great wealth of knowledge between the front and back cover, but it’s like a gold mine; you have to dig and study to reach the mother lode. If you do not, you can’t just spout out a few unfinished verses and expect that to be the grand sum of what you know about GOD. As I drive around my neighborhood I see signs that say “Pray for our Nation” Great thought. It is found in 2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. They put a set of praying hands on the sign and quote the last phrase of the scripture and completely ignore the part that says “turn from their wicked ways” You can’t have it both ways. GOD does answer prayers and he will bless us. One of his greatest promises is found in the Old Testament; Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. The RV, if it happens, will be a Godsend. However, if you do not do righteous things with it, you might as well not even participate in it. I refer you to the New Testament; Luke 12:46 ….. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. My friend, DO NOT sell GOD short. He is in complete control. This is HIS earth. We are but mere visitors passing through. If we do well, we will be rewarded. As Christ said in John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And of course, the most skipped over and misunderstood scripture of all: James 2:17-20 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Be careful what you write in the book of life for your good works appear there and by that you will be judged!!! I challenge you, my brothers and sisters in Christ, dig into the scriptures and see the blessings that are in store for those “good and faithful servants”! by the way……GO RV!!!!

I agree with you 100%. I could not have found better scriptures to quote. I want to add that as participants in Gods plan we were given our free agency to choose our life and what we will be. Every person ever borne was given that gift. God will never take that away. If he did how could we write in the book of life and be judged? Even the people in charge in Iraq have their free agency to make it go how it will. We can hope and pray they will be inspired to choose the right thing for their people and us but the reason we are all on this roller coaster is because we don't know what they will choose to do. Our choices affect all those around us and they have to choose how they will react to our choices. Asking God to help us in those choices is comforting and will give us inspiration on what would be good, better, and best to do.

This is just my opinion but I am very sure it is correct principals.

[dvforumuser]

TQueezy I enjoy your posts but I 100% disagree with you on this......I trust the Lord to work His will in my life and if I am financially blessed by this investment I believe it is Gods will for that to be so and I will give Him all glory for it......thats just me though....

if it doesn't work out and you lose say 50% of your investment, would that also be God's blessing to you?

[watercop]

if it doesn't work out and you lose say 50% of your investment, would that also be God's blessing to you?

Even if we loose it all we can, if we choose, find Gods blessings it this whole thing. We have learned many things and E met many different people who have opened our minds, showed us courage, edified us by finding info. There are so many good people on this site. I personally have gotten more understanding about international politics. My education has increased no matter what happens.

[willy1der]

I'm sorry, but your response to me was overwhelming. After so many years of trying to come to my own terms of how to handle my relationship with God and constantly fighting the sheeple mentality of organized Christianity, it's hard to read bible verses proving my "opinions" wrong on something because of written text from so long ago...

Do you want me to tell you your undisputed truth is the winner? That my opinions are useless in the face of God's truth in His Word? Fine. You're right. The Bible is the ultimate authority and His Word is the path of life for all Christians, myself included. I'm just too lazy, too selfish, too rooted in my sinful human desires to put any kind of store in the words that will lead me to him in the end. I'm tired. Tired of it all. I'm not necessarily a see to believe type of person, but I'm certainly not an enthusiastic, "Wow, look how great God is!" because of what is written in the Bible and seemingly forced on situations that happen in life...

Yes, I'm bitter. You're probably right, I know nothing about the Bible... except that you're wrong. I know enough. I just don't care. You can use it if you want to in order to prove your points and argue against my opinions, but in the end, I'm simply arguing that attributing the actions of a country whose religious beliefs fly in the face of God and their imminent change of currency exchange rate, to an act of God that is a plan for His children's lives, is just... it doesn't sit right with me. Feels dirty.

My parents always used to do that too. I guess I'm just so tired of hearing the same thing out of Christians' mouths... hungry for something different... thirsty for something unique, exciting, something else besides the tired, proven, untarnished truths in the Bible. I don't want to be mean and say "get some new material" but that's pretty much how I really feel. If I knew the Bible and could quote it, I still wouldn't. I'd paraphrase verses and use my own language to talk to non-believers. I'm not saying my way would be better, but I'd be more comfortable doing it that way.

I just hope you realize that Bible verses to many people instantly fill some with hatred, others with worry, and yet others indifferent. Never does it make anyone comfortable except other Christians that regularly use them. Meet your opponents "students" on their own terms. Be a good adaptive teacher. You'll say "I can't tell others about God without using His Word! It wouldn't work, it's the basis of my beliefs!" Yes, of course you can not use the Bible to explain God to people. It's easy. And also... thank you for your post. Because it truly helped me think that nothing will ever change until either I'm dead or the rest of the world adopts my way of thinking.

And in that... I am very grateful. For a lot of different reasons. Stay happy.

1st thing is you have to believe the Bible is the word of God. 2nd is do you believe Jesus is the only begotten son of God and he came and died for your sins and rose up and is seated at the right hand of the Father. next thing I'd like to ask is what shall we use as our authority when we disagree, your opinion or the Bible? If it's the Bible then we can debate, if not your on your own. Your bitterness, does it come from your selfish life or is it because you've been beaten up with scripture or possibly even both? If it's roots are your selfishness then I suggest you die to self, don't buy the lie that deceived Adam & Eve that God is holding out on you. Another thing, if you fail at walking this out and just throw the towel in then congratulations, you're in a good place for God to do a miracle. Lord knows how I screw up and I'm thankful that I don't have to be faultless, that would be me depending on my righteousness and not the righteousness of Jesus. My righteousness is as a filthy rag. You know what TQueezy, you haven't caught God by surprise, He knows the end from the beginning! God loves you, you are perfect being perfected. Another thing is don't you know that God's Holy Spirit is still working on you? You're crying out to God, you realize that don't you. If you gave up on pleasing people in church then I'm going to ask you to do something, go back to church and be the example by loving us sheeple unconditionally! Sort of a challenge and a request, help me get straight dude/dudette.

Love and bless you

[dvforumuser]

Even if we loose it all we can, if we choose, find Gods blessings it this whole thing. We have learned many things and E met many different people who have opened our minds, showed us courage, edified us by finding info. There are so many good people on this site. I personally have gotten more understanding about international politics. My education has increased no matter what happens.

But does anyone choose this? There are many many posts even on this site talking about this blessing of vast wealth God is about to give us. I can't recall ever seeing a single post talking about the blessing of losing our money God is about to bestow upon us. If no human can know the mind of God, then why this clear bias?

By way of full disclosure I'm an atheist and have been so for my whole adult life. I've had a zillion discussions along these lines (though much of my past forum participation along these lines has focused on the evolution/creationism issue), and am not trying to push anyone to talk about something they do not enjoy discussing .

[Way2WyrD]

http://nesaranews.blogspot.com/

The guy who runs it posts whatever he thinks is important/interesting...I'm not really into the galactic federation of light stuff but some people are...

Thx for the link HJB.

I,m aware of that site thought you had got it from elsewhere.

Out of curiosity what kinda "stuff" are you into?

As some of your replies are interesting to say the least.

Thanks.

[HughJeffin Byrd]

Thx for the link HJB.

I,m aware of that site thought you had got it from elsewhere.

Out of curiosity what kinda "stuff" are you into?

As some of your replies are interesting to say the least.

Thanks.

Haha... mostly anything just to do with the truth... splashed with other things that keep me from going insane after learning much truths.

[umbertino]

Quote

If God exists and has the attributes of omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence how could it be that He has NOTHING to do with the currency of Iraq?

End Quote

"If God exists and has the attributes of omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence how could it be that"... There's so much injustice in this world ( for one)? And pain and desperation and wars and hate and hunger and racism, and things such Holocaust, Slavery and totally unequal distribution of wealth etc........

Edited March 26, 2012 by umbertino

[sheepdog]

people all over the world are allowed to make decisions: They choose to make good ones & bad ones for all the various reasons you can think of. I believe wealth comes to those who have a desire to be wealthy and disciplined enough to do the things necessary to become wealthy. It's all about personal choices.

[WallyWeaver]

But does anyone choose this? There are many many posts even on this site talking about this blessing of vast wealth God is about to give us. I can't recall ever seeing a single post talking about the blessing of losing our money God is about to bestow upon us. If no human can know the mind of God, then why this clear bias?

By way of full disclosure I'm an atheist and have been so for my whole adult life. I've had a zillion discussions along these lines (though much of my past forum participation along these lines has focused on the evolution/creationism issue), and am not trying to push anyone to talk about something they do not enjoy discussing .

Hello dv. I think the correct view of this speculation is to remember it is just that: speculation. I, for one, have not had God tell me that this is going to happen. I will say, though, a main reason I got into this investment is Iraq (Babylon, Shinar) figures to be a major player on the world scene in the last days, according to the Bible. Does this mean that the IQD needs to have a nice exchange rate in order for this to happen? No. Is there a possibility that somehow people could make some decent money off of a speculative play on Iraq's currency as they rise from the ashes? Absolutely.

So, if this speculation comes to nothing and we actually lose money.... it's okay. Maybe a little disappointing (who likes to lose money), but okay. This does not affect a Christian's standing eternally, however, which is the ultimate question that must be answered while on earth. Again, would a loss be disappointing? Yes. Is this earth merely temporal and do Christian's await a much better inheritance? Absolutely. So from that point of view, Christian's will be able to give God glory even if we take a loss on this speculation. This earth is not our home but only a temporary residence.

[WallyWeaver]

"If God exists and has the attributes of omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence how could it be that"... There's so much injustice in this world ( for one)? And pain and desperation and wars and hate and hunger and racism, and things such Holocaust, Slavery and totally unequal distribution of wealth etc........

All of the bad things you see in the world today are a result of the curse, umbertino, and do not necesarrily reflect the way God originally set things up. Death, suffering, wickedness, lawlessness, disease, etc. are all a result of the fall of man which took place in the garden of Eden. Hopefully you will not be offended but here are a few verses that explain what I am saying:

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--"

Rom. 5:12

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.But the free gift [is] not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. "

Rom. 5:14-15

Both man and the earth were cursed and separated from God in the Garden of Eden because God's law was broken. The penalty for breaking God's law was, and still is, death. God's redemptive plan, however, was to ultimately send His Son to die in the place of those who were willing to accept Him as their Redeemer. That's where we stand today....

Ultimately God will hit the reset button on earth and establish an Eden like kingdom again on earth, soon.

It's not God's plan, at this time, to make everything right on the earth. God's plan, at this time, is to give people one life where they will have the opportunity, over the course of an entire life, to decide where they want to spend eternity. This decision is made by either accepting or rejecting that Jesus is the Christ whom God sent to die for a lost and dying humanity. This is the choice each individual must make. Accept that you stand guilty of breaking God's law, feel genuine sorrow at doing so, accept that Jesus is Lord and accept Him as your Redeemer, having died in your place. This is the choice... accept Him or not, it is up to each individual. God will not force any man (or woman) to go to heaven.

Do not look to the earth today to find evidence of God's justice. Look to the Son whom He sent....

[dvforumuser]

people all over the world are allowed to make decisions: They choose to make good ones & bad ones for all the various reasons you can think of. I believe wealth comes to those who have a desire to be wealthy and disciplined enough to do the things necessary to become wealthy. It's all about personal choices.

I speculate that there is a much stronger correlation between wealth and who your parents happen to be than in what decisions you make. Making good decisions is key, but someone born into the Mubai slums doesn't have the opportunity of the decisions presented to someone born into middle class in the developed world.

[grand pubah]

Many very thoughtful posts on this thread by some very intelligent people.

Basically you have 2 elements of thinking. Those who use the Bible as the basis for their belief system and their approach to life and those who do not accept it as having that kind of authority or relevance.

I think when it comes right down to it there are many reasons to be in either group.

Some have had negative experiences in church or with people who believed in the Bible and this has tainted their view of all things of faith.

Others have had very positive experiences as a result of their faith and therefore value it more than seems reasonable to the second group.

I have had both but chosen for my faith to be in something I deem superior to a subjective belief system affected by the actions or experiences of others.

Many times I have seen people of faith chalk up very painful and tragic events to the will of God, and this somehow comforted them in dealing with it. My thinking is not quite so simplistic (and I do not mean that in a derogatory way) as I believe there are a multitude of factors that can play into those situations and many of them having nothing to do with the will of God.

I see people of faith and people of no faith both struggle through life experiences at times and encounter things difficult to understand.

However in my thinking I believe that some of the experiences I may have are not all attributed to my faith or my lack of faith. On the other hand I believe some are directly related.

If God is truly the father of us all (just bear with the argument for a moment) then it certainly stands to reason that we can look to the normal human family unit to help us understand the nature and relationship thereof.

As a father I love my children so deeply that I absolutely do not enjoy or want to see them go through pain or suffering in any form. On the other hand I also am aware as a caring father that there is a certain amount of difficulty that is necessary for them to develop into healthy, mature, productive, independent, and caring adults. In order for them to grow up and become healthy a certain amount of difficulty is of necessity. We see this in the growing of a child who first must be taught to be potty trained, then to play in the yard and not the street, then made to enter grade school. IT is uncomfortable, demanding, and the discipline of the curriculum is something they are unaccustomed to. But necessary for their development and maturity. The child's view also matures from "my parents and teachers are just being mean" to understanding that what is done is for their good eventually. Trying to shield the child from this unsterile seemingly harsh environment will only serve to dwarf their growth.

Hopefully that small child will someday mature into an adult and see things from a completely different perspective. Sometimes not until after they have their own children and become parents themselves.

IF all the difficulty and pain is shielded from a child's life he grows up spoiled, self centered, weak, unproductive, and unable to deal with normal challenges in a healthy way. However just because someone goes through some form of difficulty or pain is no guarantee they will grow and mature through it. IT is the choices made in the midst of those experiences that can either make us bitter or better.

I have chosen to get better. I most certainly can feel and have compassion on the discouragement, confusion, hurt, disappointment of others. Their experiences are real to me because I too have been touched by these as the natural course of life.

I do not believe God to be the author of many of these experiences but do treasure the promise that He will take whatever touches our life and turn it for good in the end if we love Him and are called according to His purpose. The peculiarity of it is that is exactly what has happened for me.

I do believe that God does bless His creation but am not so naive to believe that He only blesses those who follow Him. Not everything that is good that happens is a direct intervention of Him no more than everything that is bad is. However I believe there are definite times when the direct intervention of God is unmistakable.

Many are naive in their faith and cling to ideas to me that are overly simplistic and unjustified. Perhaps your parents may fall in that category according to your notation. My view on such scenarios is even if they are wrong and I do not agree with their approach I honor their convictions and their faith even if I deem it misplaced.

Sorry for the long post

thanks for the civility in this thread on such a sensitive subject

and best of wishes to all my DV friends

GP

[WallyWeaver]

I do not believe God to be the author of many of these experiences but do treasure the promise that He will take whatever touches our life and turn it for good in the end if we love Him and are called according to His purpose. The peculiarity of it is that is exactly what has happened for me.

Well said GP, and I agree with you. If you are in God's family than this is the correct perspective, in my opinion. Love the Rom. 8:28 reference. A believer is actually able to rejoice (as he/ she matures) at tribulations because they understand God is using it to "perfect" them. Not that anyone will ever be perfect on earth but believers are in a process of sanctification (sorry for the big Bible word) while here.

I also don't believe that every single thing that happens to you, whether bad or good, is necesarrily from God. Sometimes you get a flat tire because.... you got a flat tire. There is no spiritual meaning to it. It just happens and you need to get out and change it. It's a part of life. But Christian's can also be sure that God is at work "working all things together for good...." well said.

The same cannot be said of unbelievers, however. When a nonbeliever goes through trials there may or may not be any rhyme or reason to it. The only thing that can be sure is the Father is reaching out to them, through whatever means possible, to get them to know that He loves them and has provided a way for them to be right with Him. Until they make that decision it cannot be said that "all things are working together for good" for an unbeliever.

WW.