Be Careful with your conclusions

[bohica]

Politicians and less than truly thinking people are out there wanting to link the shootings with 'psychotropic' drugs.  Be careful because this is a two edged sword.  If the politicians are able to attach the shootings to anything other than a bad guy with a gun decided to do bad things with a gun then it can and will open a hornets nest.  Psychotropic drugs can be lumped into everything from heavy medications meant to control violent behavior to effexor which is for anxiety to Busbar which is normally for PTSD.  Once they open this door then any and every 'emotional or mental condition' is fair game.  It does not matter if you saw someone for seasonal depression, PTSD or hospitalization it would be lumped all together.  There is only one reason for the shooting and that is a bad person made a bad decision to do bad things.  

[Jim1cor13]

Thanks Bohica

 

I agree with your warning bohica, and bottom line is that people kill each other, for whatever reason

or no reason and certainly they will find a way with or without a weapon. Of course we are not

talking about proper self defense measures to protect ourselves or others. We all should know

guns do not kill, but the person pulling the trigger does.

 

We do have to be careful of how people are labelled when it comes to "mental" disorders. PTSD, anxiety, depression are very much

related to the effect of trauma on a persons brain. That trauma can be combat related, in which the 

person cannot digest the actions they took or what they saw on in the field. I have talked with enough

military folk to know their thoughts about this and how some of the bravest struggle daily to cope

because they never stopped being a human and feeling the effects of taking a life.

 

Life itself, various moments can have long lasting effects on a person mental state. it is not a disorder, it is

a human being reacting to something shocking or fearful, etc. So your warning is certainly valid, and

these folks need help, not just given another label that some may try and use against them.

 

But I do not think anyone can deny that this class of drugs has been implicated in influencing

some peoples behavior. I have first hand knowledge at how certain "SSRI" anti-depressants can push

some people over the edge, or give them a false sense of invincibility and increasing rage and violence.

Drug makers already have warned about this as a side effect yet have done little to address it for 20 

years now. Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac, just those three come with quite the history of side effects, especially for

those on them long term. 

 

This is not to say some of those drugs do not help some people. For sure they do, but many have had serious

side effects that led them to doing things that otherwise they would have not considered.

 

Here are some factoids that have linked some shooting related incidents that the perps involved

were on certain medications. it is not as much about blaming the drugs as it is about their influence

on the people documented below, and should not be, cannot be ignored.

 

Bottom line is that it is PEOPLE who murder people...and just as alcohol can influence a persons personality

so can certain psychotropic drugs that can push them deeper into making bad decisions.

 

1. Austin, Texas – May 1, 2017: Kendrex J. White, 21, stabbed four people with a machete-like hunting knife at the University of Texas, killing one and wounding three. The stabbings occurred within a one-block area as the attacker “calmly walked around the plaza,” according to the chief of police. After he was arrested, White told police he did not remember the attack. The police department said that White had recently been involuntarily committed in another city, and county records showed that he had been arrested and charged with a DWI (Driving While Intoxicated) on April 4, 2017. When an officer spoke to him, White said he had taken two “happy pills,” listed as the antidepressant Zoloft.
2. Tallahassee, Florida – November 20, 2014: 31-year-old Myron May, a Florida State University alum, opened fire in the school’s library, wounding three before he was shot and killed by police. ABC Action News found a half-filled prescription for the antianxiety drug Hydroxyzine in his apartment after the shooting. In addition, according to May’s friends, he had seen a psychologist and had been prescribed the antidepressant Wellbutrin and the ADHD drug Vyvanse. He also checked himself in to a mental health center called Mesilla Valley Hospital around September of 2014. Shortly after this, his friends discovered the antipsychotic Seroquel among his prescriptions.
3. Seattle, Washington – June 5, 2014: 26-year-old Aaron Ybarra opened fire with a shotgun at Seattle Pacific University, killing one student and wounding two others. Ybarra planned to kill as many people as possible and then kill himself. In 2012, Ybarra reported that he had been prescribed the antidepressant Prozac and antipsychotic Risperdal. A report from his counselor in December of 2013 said that he was taking Prozac at the time and planned to continue to meet with his psychiatrist and therapist as needed. His lawyer also said that Ybarra had a long history of mental health issues for which he was taking prescribed drugs for at the time of the shooting.
4. Milford, Connecticut – April 25, 2014: 16-year-old Chris Plaskon stabbed Maren Sanchez, also 16, to death in a stairwell at Jonathan Law High School after she turned down his prom invitation. According to classmates and a former close friend, Chris was taking drugs for ADHD.
5. Sparks, Nevada – October 21, 2013: 12-year-old Jose Reyes opened fire at Sparks Middle School, killing a teacher and wounding two classmates before committing suicide. The investigation revealed that he had been seeing a psychiatrist and had a generic version of Prozac (fluoxetine) in his system at the time of death.
6. St. Louis, Missouri – January 15, 2013: 34-year-old Sean Johnson walked onto the Stevens Institute of Business & Arts campus and shot the school’s financial aid director once in the chest, then shot himself in the torso. Johnson had been taking prescribed drugs for an undisclosed mental illness.
7. Snohomish County, Washington – October 24, 2011: A 15-year-old girl went to Snohomish High School where police alleged that she stabbed a girl as many as 25 times just before the start of school, and then stabbed another girl who tried to help her injured friend. Prior to the attack the girl had been taking “medication” and seeing a psychiatrist. Court documents said the girl was being treated for depression.
8. Planoise, France – December 13, 2010: A 17-year-old youth held twenty pre-school children and their teacher hostage for hours at Charles Fourier preschool.  The teen was reported to be on “medication for depression”.  He took a classroom hostage with two swords. Eventually, all the children and the teacher were released safely.
9. Myrtle Beach, South Carolina – September 21, 2011: 14-year-old Christian Helms had two pipe bombs in his backpack, when he shot and wounded Socastee High School’s “resource” (police) officer. However the officer was able to stop the student before he could do anything further. Evidence showed that he was planning an attack similar to the Columbine High School shooting and had even made a list of who he was going to kill. Helms had been taking drugs for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and depression.
10. Huntsville, Alabama – February 5, 2010: 15-year-old Hammad Memon shot and killed another Discover Middle School student Todd Brown.  Memon had a history for being treated for ADHD and depression.  He was taking the antidepressant Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.” He had been seeing a psychiatrist and psychologist.
11. Kauhajoki, Finland – September 23, 2008: 22-year-old culinary student Matti Saari shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself.  Saari was taking an SSRI and alprazolam (Xanax). He was also seeing a psychologist.
12. Fresno, California – April 24, 2008: 17-year-old Jesus “Jesse” Carrizales attacked the Fresno high school’s officer, hitting him in the head with a baseball bat.  After knocking the officer down, the officer shot Carrizales in self-defense, killing him.  Carrizales had been prescribed Lexapro and Geodon, and his autopsy showed that he had a high dose of the antidepressant Lexapro in his blood that could have caused him to be paranoid, according to the coroner.
13. DeKalb, Illinois – February 14, 2008: 27-year-old Steven Kazmierczak shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking the prescribed drugs Prozac, Xanax and Ambien but had stopped taking Prozac three weeks before the shooting. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amount of Xanax in his system. He had been seeing a psychiatrist.
14. Jokela, Finland – November 7, 2007: 18-year-old Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School in southern Finland, then committed suicide.
15. Texas – November 7, 2007: 17-year-old Felicia McMillan returned to her former Robert E. Lee High School campus and stabbed a male student and wounded the principle with a knife.  McMillan had been on drugs for depression, and had just taken them the night before the incident.
16. Cleveland, Ohio – October 10, 2007: 14-year-old Asa Coon stormed through his school with a gun in each hand, shooting and wounding four before taking his own life. Coon had been prescribed the antidepressant Trazodone.
17. Sudbury, Massachusetts – January 19, 2007: 16-year-old John Odgren stabbed another student to death with a large kitchen knife in a boy’s bathroom at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School. In court his father testified that Odgren was prescribed the drug Ritalin.
18. North Vernon, Indiana – December 4, 2006: 16-year-old Travis Roberson stabbed another Jennings County High School student in the neck, nearly severing an artery. Roberson was in withdrawal from Wellbutrin, which he had stopped taking days before the attack.
19. Hillsborough, North Carolina – August 30, 2006: 19-year-old Alvaro Rafael Castillo shot and killed his father, then drove to Orange High School where he opened fire. Two students were injured in the shooting, which ended when school personnel tackled him. His mother said he was on drugs for depression.
20. Chapel Hill, North Carolina – April 24, 2006: 17-year-old William Barrett Foster took a shotgun to school and took a teacher and a fellow student hostage at East Chapel Hill High School. After being talked out of shooting the hostages, Foster fired two shots through a classroom window before fleeing the school on foot. Foster’s father testified that his son had stopped taking his antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs without telling him.
21. Red Lake, Minnesota – March 21, 2005: 16-year-old Jeff Weise, on Prozac, shot and killed his grandfather and his grandfather’s girlfriend, then went to his school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation where he shot dead 5 students, a security guard, and a teacher, and wounded 7 before killing himself.
22. Greenbush, New York – February 9, 2004: 16-year-old Jon Romano strolled into his high school in east Greenbush and opened fire with a shotgun. Special education teacher Michael Bennett was hit in the leg. Romano had been taking the antianxiety drug Xanax. He had previously spent time in a psychiatric care facility.
23. Red Lion, Pennsylvania – February 2, 2001: 56-year-old William Michael Stankewicz entered North Hopewell-Winterstown Elementary School with a machete, leaving three adults and 11 children injured. Stankewicz was taking four different drugs for depression and anxiety weeks before the attacks.
24. Ikeda, Japan – June 8, 2001: 37-year-old Mamoru Takuma, wielding a 6-inch knife, slipped into an elementary school and stabbed eight first- and second-graders to death while wounding at least 15 other pupils and teachers. He then turned the knife on himself but suffered only superficial wounds. He later told interrogators that before the attack he had taken 10 times his normal dose of antidepressants. Police said he had been under the care of a psychiatrist.
25. Wahluke, Washington – April 10, 2001: Sixteen-year-old Cory Baadsgaard took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates and a teacher hostage. Three weeks earlier, his doctor had switched Baadsgaard’s prescription from Paxil to Effexor. The morning of the incident, his dosage of Effexor had been increased. Baadsgaard said he had no memory of the incident.
26. El Cajon, California – March 22, 2001: 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, on the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor, opened fire on his classmates, wounding three students and two teachers at Granite Hills High School. He had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.
27. Williamsport, Pennsylvania – March 7, 2001: 14-year-old Elizabeth Bush was taking the antidepressant Prozac when she shot at fellow students, wounding one.
28. Oxnard, California – January 10, 2001: 17-year-old Richard Lopez went to Hueneme High School with a gun and shot twice at a car in the school’s parking lot before taking a female student hostage.  Lopez was eventually killed by a SWAT officer.  He had been prescribed Prozac, Paxil and “drugs that helped him go to sleep.”
29. Conyers, Georgia – May 20, 1999: 15-year-old T.J. Solomon was being treated with the stimulant Ritalin when he opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.
30. Columbine, Colorado – April 20, 1999: 18-year-old Eric Harris and his accomplice, Dylan Klebold, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 26 others before killing themselves. Harris was on the antidepressant Luvox.  Klebold’s medical records remain sealed. Both shooters had been in anger-management classes and had undergone counseling.  Harris had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.
31. Notus, Idaho – April 16, 1999: 15-year-old Shawn Cooper fired two shotgun rounds in his school, injuring one student. He was taking a prescribed antidepressant and Ritalin.
32. Springfield, Oregon – May 21, 1998: 15-year-old Kip Kinkel murdered his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 25. Kinkel had been taking the antidepressant Prozac. Kinkel had been attending “anger control classes” and had previously been under the care of a psychologist.
33. Blackville, South Carolina – October 12, 1995: 15-year-old Toby R. Sincino slipped into the Blackville-Hilda High School’s rear entrance, where he shot two Blackville-Hilda High School teachers, killing one. Then Toby killed himself moments later. His aunt, Carolyn McCreary, said he had been undergoing counseling with the Department of Mental Health and was taking Zoloft for emotional problems.
34. Chelsea, Michigan – December 16, 1993: 39-year-old chemistry teacher Stephen Leith, facing a disciplinary matter at Chelsea High School, shot Superintendent Joseph Piasecki to death, shot Principal Ron Mead in the leg, and slightly wounded journalism teacher Phil Jones. Leith was taking Prozac and had been seeing a psychiatrist.
35. Houston, Texas – September 18, 1992: 44-year-old Calvin Charles Bell, reportedly upset about his second-grader’s progress report, appeared in the principal’s office of Piney Point Elementary School. Bell fired a gun in the school, and eventually wounded two officers before surrendering. Relatives told police on Friday that Bell was an unemployed Vietnam veteran and had been taking anti-depressants.
36. Winnetka, Illinois – 20 May 1988: 30-year-old Laurie Wasserman Dann walked into a second grade classroom at Hubbard Woods School in Winnetka, Illinois carrying three pistols and began shooting children, killing an eight-year-old boy, and wounding five others before fleeing. She entered a nearby house where she shot and wounded a 20-year-old man before killing herself. Dann had been seeing a psychiatrist and subsequent blood tests revealed that at the time of the killings, she was taking the antidepressant Anafranil. LINK

[Karsten]

Believe it or not even Chantix is considered a Mind Altering drug and could be deemed to cancel out one's 2nd Amendment rights....You are correct what once that door is opened soon Aspirin would be getting a closer look.

 

I found this to be a little troubling as well. This book from 1991 predicting what was going to come to be in the future.

 

Karsten

[bostonangler]

15 hours ago, Karsten said:

Chantix is considered a Mind Altering drug

 

It is true, my old boss took that and for a month or two he was crazed... We all had to stay out of his way until he was done taking it. He was a mild mannered guy one day and the next he was throwing stuff around the office like a maniac. It definitely had an effect to his brain...

 

B/A

[coorslite21]

 

On the morning of May 18, 1927 in Bath Township, Michigan, a 55-year old municipal worker named Andrew Kehoe used a timed detonator to set off a bomb he had planted at the local school.   Kehoe was Treasurer of the School Board, so he had unfettered access to the school.   According to friends and neighbors, he was having personal issues with his wife (who he had murdered days prior) and extreme financial difficulties. He was also severely disgruntled about having lost a local election the previous autumn.   Whatever his reasons, Kehoe took out his rage on the 38 schoolchildren he killed that day.    It remains the deadliest attack on a school in US history.   Sadly, it wasn’t the first-- there were numerous reports of school shootings throughout the 1800s and before.   And as we all know too well, it wouldn’t be the last.   Last week’s shooting in Florida is another tragic stain in the pages of US history. And it’s completely understandable that emotions are running high now.   People are demanding action. They want their government to “do something.”   The problem, of course, is what we’ve been talking about so far this year in our daily conversations: emotional decisions tend to be bad decisions-- and that includes public policy.   We keep hearing the phrase “Common Sense Gun Laws,” for example. And that certainly sounds reasonable. Who could possibly be against common sense? [As an aside, I do wonder why “common sense” is only reserved for the gun control debate. Why doesn’t anyone demand common sense airport security? Or a common sense federal budget?]   But it’s never quite so simple.   Many of these “common sense” solutions are emotional reactions.   As an example, the Florida shooter in last week’s tragedy is only 19 years old. So now one of the proposals being tossed around is to have a minimum age limit to be able to purchase a firearm.   I suppose if the shooter happened to have been 70 years old, people would be talking about having a maximum age limit instead. Yet neither of these “common sense solutions” really solves the problem.   A big part of this is because no one really knows what’s causing the problem to begin with.   We know that there are far too many people committing acts of violence in schools and other public places. And, sure, a lot of the time they use firearms. But we’re also seeing murderous rampages with cement trucks, U-Hauls, and everyday appliances like pressure cookers.   Any of these can be turned into a weapon of mass destruction.   But the debate only focuses on firearms.   One side presupposes that more regulations and fewer guns will make everyone safer.   The other side of the debate, of course, argues that more guns and fewer regulations will make everyone safer. The reality is that there’s no clear evidence that either side is correct.   Australia is often held up as an example of a nation that passed strict gun laws (including confiscation) in 1996 following several mass shootings.   And yes, gun violence dropped precipitously. Australia now has one of the lowest murder rates in the world.   But contrast that with Serbia, for example, which is the #2 country in the world in terms of guns per capita (the US is #1). Serbia has a strong gun culture and fairly liberal laws. Yet its gun violence rate is incredibly low, on par with Australia’s.   There are plenty of examples in the world of places that passed strict gun laws, and violence decreased (Colombia). Others where violence INCREASED after passing strict gun laws (Venezuela, Chicago).   Other examples of places which have LOW levels of gun violence, yet liberal laws (Serbia). And still others with LOW levels of gun violence and fairly strict laws (Chile).   The point is that you can look at the data 10,000 different ways and never really find a clear correlation. So there HAS to be something else going on. Is it cultural? Perhaps.   Japan, for example, has extremely strict firearms laws. You can’t even own a sword without special permission. And Japan, of course, has very limited gun violence. But this is not a violent culture to begin with.   You probably recall back in 2011 after the devastating earthquake and tsunami, Japanese people sat quietly outside of their collapsed homes and waited for authorities. No looting. No pillaging.   Contrast that with the city of Philadelphia earlier this month, where people were out rioting, looting, and setting property on fire… simply because their football team won the Super Bowl.   Perhaps there’s something about the US that has people so tightly wound they dive into violence at the first opportunity.   Maybe it’s all the medication people take. Or the crap in their food. Who knows. But it’s worth exploring the actual SOURCE of the problem rather than treating a symptom.   The larger issue, though, is that this “common sense” mantra is tied exclusively to LAWS.   Guess what? There are already laws, rules, regulations, and procedures on the books. They’re not working. In the November 2017 mass shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas, the shooter was able to purchase weapons because the Air Force erroneously failed to record his military court-martial.   And with the Florida shooting, the FBI had the suspect on a silver platter and did nothing.   It’s clear that the laws on the books aren’t being properly implemented. Yet the solution people want is MORE LAWS.   How about better execution? How about applying that all-important “common sense” to the way laws are carried out?   This is conspicuously missing from the debate.   There’s almost no conversation about what’s actually CAUSING the violence.   Instead, people are focused on a manifestation of that problem (guns) and demanding more laws to control that symptom even though the existing laws are being pitifully executed.   This is a pretty horrendous way to solve a problem.   [We discuss this more in today’s podcast, along with plenty of other extremely uncomfortable realities. Listen in here.]

To your freedom,

Simon Black,

[SgtFuryUSCZ]

Ya'll are correct -- guns don't kill people, people kill people.

 

And taking guns out of the equation is NOT going to stop a potential killer,

the killer will find a way - and a means - no matter what.

 

We understand the instant backlash by those affected in these tragedies,

(fed by the anti-gun kommies that want to disarm the American People)

screaming for even more 'gun laws'.

 

But they fail to see the reality ==>  monsters like this mass shooter could only have been stopped one way..

... if only that Coach / School Security Officer had been allowed to wear HIS gun.

 

Instead of getting rid of guns, we should focus on getting rid of IGNORANCE.

 

This includes neutralizing the kommie groups - like the ACLU - who refuse to allow mental cases like this school shooter

to be locked away in the interest of Public Safety.

 

 

.

 

.

[Karsten]

 

Rather scary and goes right along with the quoted paragraph from Behold a Pale Horse.

 

Karsten

[Jim1cor13]

As far as certain drugs go, during trial tests, there is always an equation called "acceptable risk".

 

Known harmful side effects are deemed "acceptable", if it only affects a few percentage points of the 

people used in the trials. Do the math...what is 1 percent of a million people an said drug sold? How many of those

affected by a side effect of violent behavior for instance, that may act out their drug induced delusions upon another person?

The number could get staggering over the long term...and the criminal aspect of it all are those who KNOW and yet

still authorize certain drugs to be marketed.

 

It is fact that in addition to some of these trials, those doing the testing have monetary connections to the pharma companies.

This is too common especially within the testing of psychotropic drugs but it affects many other drug trials also, cancer drugs,

heart related, etc. There will always be those who admire the profit potential much more than they want to actually help a person.