Atheists are Most Hated and Distrusted Minority

[bald1]

Dean, If science is always changing how can it be used to disprove that God is real and alive??

[BrokeNoMore]

I just love how some of you use a "childish dare" to continue in the darkness.

Focus on a set of words you don't like. That's useful.

The very reason it's a dare is because there is power in it, and you inherently know it, therefore you refuse to try it. But really, it's because it's a childish dare. Right. :lol:

[dhardage]

I just love how some of you use a "childish dare" to continue in the darkness.

Focus on a set of words you don't like. That's useful.

The very reason it's a dare is because there is power in it, and you inherently know it, therefore you refuse to try it. But really, it's because it's a childish dare. Right. :lol:

And what do you believe would happen if Dean accepted your "dare"?

[Dean_H]

I have no problem with someone that disagrees with me but if someone decides to have a stance on something its always a good I sea to have some sort of education on the subject. He is in question of truth and I gave a resource to understand my stance rather than just saying that someone is dumb for not seeing something the way I do.

tumdrum, I have obviously not had the opportunity to actually read the book you recommended but I have taken the opportunity to research the author and to read some of his articles. I find the source less than convincing at the outset because he has an avowed interest in justifying a specific viewpoint rather than objectively examining the evidence and drawing a conclusion. The scientific method never attempts to prove a point of view, it seeks to explain how something works and examines it experimentally. If the evidence doesn’t support it, you change your hypothesis, develop an experiment to test, and go at it again. When you approach a subject bent on proving that you’re right you lose all objectivity. You want me to have an open mind. I challenge you to do the same and admit that you might be wrong and I don’t think you can do that.

[BrokeNoMore]

And what do you believe would happen if Dean accepted your "dare"?

Everybody's experience is different. You'd have to try it to know for yourself. That's because He's a Personal God.

[Dean_H]

I just love how some of you use a "childish dare" to continue in the darkness.

Focus on a set of words you don't like. That's useful.

The very reason it's a dare is because there is power in it, and you inherently know it, therefore you refuse to try it. But really, it's because it's a childish dare. Right. :lol:

A dare has no more or less power than one allows it to have. I find your assumption that you know what I think and feel to be presumptious at best, arrogant and condescending at worst.

[dhardage]

Everybody's experience is different. You'd have to try it to know for yourself. That's because He's a Personal God.

but for you to even suggest it........ you never had a PROBABLE outcome in mind?

[BrokeNoMore]

but for you to even suggest it........ you never had a PROBABLE outcome in mind?

Of course. But to tell would be to spoil it.

A dare has no more or less power than one allows it to have. I find your assumption that you know what I think and feel to be presumptious at best, arrogant and condescending at worst.

I was actually addressing several people who commented on the childishness as a group, certainly not you as an individual. I feel that calling my dare "childish" is a little condescending too. Who cares. It completely misses the point.

That the dare has no power in it is entirely true. The dare itself. The outcome...well now that's entirely another matter.

[Dean_H]

Dean, If science is always changing how can it be used to disprove that God is real and alive??

First, science never attempted to disprove that God is real and alive. Science is concered with explaining how things work and predicting what will happen under a certain set of condtions. God and faith are not science and science isn't about God and faith.

Second, science changes because we continue to learn more and more. Good science changes when new knowledge disproves prevailing theory. True science doesn't keep a theory that is contradicted by facts, it changes the theory to account for that knowledge.

[dhardage]

I am sorry if you misunderstood me J.F. I was not saying that you attacked anyone. I was saying that I did not see an attack from Dean.

Robin I don't know why some people are mean and spiteful and some aren't but I don't think that has anything to do with a certain religious affiliation, that is just in some peoples nature. I personally don't even go to an organized church because I have learned its more for socializing than learning the Lord (not all). But I know for a fact that you can't give up on something just because someone rubs you the wrong way. Girl I can tell you are a good hearted and natured person, I pray you keep your heart open.

Bama,

I have heard some say that one MUST go to church to truly be "forgiven". Ask all who know me in Real Life, and most that know me here. I don't have that kind of time (or attention span)

[bald1]

First, science never attempted to disprove that God is real and alive. Science is concered with explaining how things work and predicting what will happen under a certain set of condtions. God and faith are not science and science isn't about God and faith.

Second, science changes because we continue to learn more and more. Good science changes when new knowledge disproves prevailing theory. True science doesn't keep a theory that is contradicted by facts, it changes the theory to account for that knowledge.

I have to disagree, Big Bang attempts to discredit the creation, It attempts to explain how the universe was created. Evolution tries to say we evolved over time. Both of these have no factual evidence to support them. Scientists keep trying to claim that humans never lived with dinosaurs however recent fossil records prove otherwise.

I do agree with you in that God and Faith are not science and science isn't about God and Faith. Faith is a result of learning about God. Science when honest can deepen ones Faith in God.

[ems]

The First Law of Thermodynamics states that in a closed system, the amount of energy present in that system is constant, though it transforms into other forms of energy... So, if the Universe as a whole initially contained no mass/matter/energy (energy input is equal to zero), and then it spontaneously generated all of the mass/matter/energy in the Universe (energy output is unequal to zero), the First Law would be violated.

The First Law of Thermodynamics has no known exceptions.

The Universe could not have come into existence without the presence and intervention of a Force outside of the closed system of the entire physical Universe... That Force can be none other than the supernatural God of the Bible. Scientifically speaking, the Universe could not and did not spontaneously generate.

Right on the money, Bald1! The Second Law of Thermodynamics (all systems move from order to disorder) is also conveniently overlooked by evolutionary scientists. Single cell organisms becoming more and more complex would violate the 2nd Law. Of course, evolutionists state entropy can be overcome by putting energy into the system, which would take things back to the 1st Law since there is only a fixed amount of energy in the universe. DNA mutations are 99% harmful, not beneficial. So we see microevolution (variety within a species), but there is no macroevolution (one species changing into another). Why are there no true transitional fossils? Evolutionists can't answer that (Punctuated Equilibrium was just wishful thinking!). Simple logic also raises questions evolutionists don't want to tackle: Suppose an organism survived enough genetic mutations to make it a different species. A similar organism of opposing gender would have to survive the exact same genetic mutations to propogate the new species. Next to impossible! The odds of that are so incredible, believing that would take far more faith than believing an Intelligent Designer brought them into existence.

[Dean_H]

I have to disagree, Big Bang attempts to discredit the creation, It attempts to explain how the universe was created. Evolution tries to say we evolved over time. Both of these have no factual evidence to support them. Scientists keep trying to claim that humans never lived with dinosaurs however recent fossil records prove otherwise.

I do agree with you in that God and Faith are not science and science isn't about God and Faith. Faith is a result of learning about God. Science when honest can deepen ones Faith in God.

Theories about the Big Bang attempt to explain the mechanism that formed the universe and set it into the pattern it follows and form the structures it possesses from observable facts and phenomenon. It's not meant to prove God doesn't exist.

Evolution as a theory has a great deal of evidence, fossil and otherwise, to support it. As I stated, if evidence to the contrary is found then the theory will have to be reevaluated and reformulated to account for those discoveries but it's still the most accurate thing going. Archeology, geology, genetics, and a number of other disciplines support the concept of survival of the fittest and adaptation to environment.

[Markinsa]

There is another verse that speaks of Jesus going down below, after his death and before his resurrection, and preaching/revealing himself to those that are being held captive; it is in the New Testament, when I get home from work, I will look it up and post it as well.

1. I'll be very interested in reading those verses.

2. You still haven't explained how a just god allows someone who was evil for most of their lives to be saved at the last minute while one who did nothing but good for others is condemned. Please don't use the argument that only God's grace makes us worthy. That's a cop out. I want you to explain how that could be fair or just. Can you do that?

1.

John 5:19-29 (NLT)

¹⁹ So Jesus explained, “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. ²⁰ For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing. In fact, the Father will show him how to do even greater works than healing this man. Then you will truly be astonished. ²¹ For just as the Father gives life to those he raises from the dead, so the Son gives life to anyone he wants. ²² In addition, the Father judges no one. Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge, ²³ so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.

²⁴ “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

²⁵ “And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. ²⁶ The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son. ²⁷ And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man. ²⁸ Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, ²⁹ and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NLT)

¹⁸ Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

¹⁹ So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—²⁰ those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.

1 Peter 4:5-6 (NLT)

⁵ But remember that they will have to face God, who will judge everyone, both the living and the dead. ⁶ That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead—so although they were destined to die like all people, they now live forever with God in the Spirit.

2. In order to understand this, you need to understand some of the attributes of God.

Among which are, God is Holy, God is Love, God is Just, God is Faithful, God is Truth, God is Omniscient. He created the Universe and everything in it, by his Word. He is the source of and controls everything. He knows how many hairs are on your head at any given moment. He provides the air that you breath, and allows your heart to beat.

God cannot change WHO HE is. You see his order all throughout the Universe, the Laws of Physics, Gravity, Thermodynamics, Time. Keeping all this in mind now let me try to answer your question.

You have already stated,

OK, so someone can be a mass murder/rapist/terrorist for all of his or her life, confess their sins and be forgiven 10 seconds before dying as long as they are sincere and they will go to heaven while someone who is a great person, does nothing but help others his or her entire life but does not accept Christ as savior will go to hell? Tell me this is right, sensible, logical, or godly and explain it to me, please?

To the human mind, no it doesn’t seem right. Let’s refer to God’s first Attribute, Holy. On a scale of Goodness with 1, being Evil, and with 1 Billion, God being (Holy).

Examples of Goodness:

Satan = 1

Hitler = 100

Ted Bundy = 100

Pol Pot = 100

Stalin = 100

You, Me and the Guy That does Good = 1,000 x 100 = 100,000

Mother Teresa = 5,000 x 100 = 500,000

|1-100-100K-500k--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1Billion|

So as you can see, on a Goodness Scale, You, me, and the Guy That Does Good, we’re 100,00 times better than Satan, and a 1,000 times better than, Ted Bundy, Stalin and Pol Pot, and Mother Teresa is 5 times better than we are. But we are only “0.01%” (if that much) as good as God. We are not even close to the “HOLY” standard, of 1 Billion, required to be in God’s presence.

God in his Wisdom, made the plan for Salvation simple, because quite frankly, not everyone is as smart as you and I, so he needed to make sure EVERYONE could understand, IT’S A GIFT. You don’t have to do anything to earn it, you just accept my Son as your Lord, turn from and repent of your sins, and you’re in! Easy!

God loves everyone the same. You said you have children so you should understand unconditional love. How often did you enforce your will on your Children? If your Child was mad at you, or doesn’t want to be with you, do you force yourself on them? If they are old enough to leave the house, do you go over to their house when you are not welcomed? No!

The Good Person, who does not accept Christ as their Savior is “Rejecting” God. He rejected Christ who IS God, so why would that person want to be in Heaven with someone he rejected? People who reject Christ are choosing their fate, God is just supplying the destination. I’ve read and heard that Hell is everything God is not.

Now concerning, “a mass murder/rapist/terrorist for all of his or her life, confess their sins and be forgiven 10 seconds before dying as long as they are sincere”, though this scenario to me, is highly unlikely, I guess the closest person that fits this profile, would be the Thief on the Cross. He confessed his sins and called for Jesus and he went to Heaven.

Luke 23:40-43 (NLT)

⁴⁰ But the other criminal protested, “Don’t you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? ⁴¹ We deserve to die for our crimes, but this man hasn’t done anything wrong.” ⁴² Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”

⁴³ And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

One other thing to remember, when a person accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they are Baptized with the Holy Spirit. It is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit that makes us Holy. That is why, the Good Man that does not accept Christ will not be allowed in Heaven.

1 Peter 1:2 (NLT)

² God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

May God give you more and more grace and peace.

[Dean_H]

Thank you for taking the time to look up those verses. As I understand it, then, everyone who ever lived has simply been waiting for Jesus to judge them? Jesus is never recorded as calling to the dead as these verses say that he would do. I suppose that the billions that have lived are all in a kind of limbo, waiting for Jesus’ call? Can you clarify that?

Second, you say that works don’t mean anything, it’s all about God’s grace. Your verses contradict that. According to Jesus, “Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

Jesus himself says that the good will be rewarded, the evil punished. If these are indeed the literal words of Jesus then this doesn’t square with the numeric exercise that you have done but does mean that we are indeed judged by our works.

[BrokeNoMore]

Thank you for taking the time to look up those verses. As I understand it, then, everyone who ever lived has simply been waiting for Jesus to judge them? Jesus is never recorded as calling to the dead as these verses say that he would do. I suppose that the billions that have lived are all in a kind of limbo, waiting for Jesus’ call? Can you clarify that?

Second, you say that works don’t mean anything, it’s all about God’s grace. Your verses contradict that. According to Jesus, “Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

Jesus himself says that the good will be rewarded, the evil punished. If these are indeed the literal words of Jesus then this doesn’t square with the numeric exercise that you have done but does mean that we are indeed judged by our works.

I have a theory. Mind you, it's just a theory.

I suspect that when it's all said and done and we're standing at the Judgement Seat of Christ, it is we who are going to judge ourselves in His holy presence. I mean me judge me, you judge you, and decide if we can tolerate the pure perfection of the presence of God for all eternity. For those with an evil heart who never knew or wanted to know God, they won't be able to tolerate it. Those with a pure heart who sought the truth will be comfortable in His presence.

Just a theory. Nothin' to back it up. But as theories go, it's one of my favorite.

[dhardage]

I have a theory. Mind you, it's just a theory.

I suspect that when it's all said and done and we're standing at the Judgement Seat of Christ, it is we who are going to judge ourselves in His holy presence. I mean me judge me, you judge you, and decide if we can tolerate the pure perfection of the presence of God for all eternity. For those with an evil heart who never knew or wanted to know God, they won't be able to tolerate it. Those with a pure heart who sought the truth will be comfortable in His presence.

Just a theory. Nothin' to back it up. But as theories go, it's one of my favorite.

Are you saying that all those who never knew or wanted to know God have an Evil Heart? Please tell me I misunderstood!

[caughtinthecrossfire]

ok everyone...hopefully...this thread will close.

I am unsure if you are aware...but Tif..the poster of this "thread" has given her final farewell address on her profile page. I took time to read it quite well the other evening. Boasting of her lesbian pride and atheism...and torting off a comment that suggests women are not considered a mans equal...is how she chose to leave us thinking.

Her original profile was quite different and boasted more of her intellectual side and scholarly achievements.

I think someone mentioned in this tread...BrokeNoMore...on the very first page and in a reply to one of my comments...a comment that really came to my mind after pouring over all the pages to this one thread. The comment was made that:

"Tiff apparently posts quite often, leading with arguments for atheism. When he/she loses on one thread, she starts another. When asked for proof and source material, he/she ignores. So much energy into trying to convince people who do believe in Someone, to believe there is no one. Kind of reminds me of the bashers who continually post on here "in the honest effort to save us" how we will never see a dime from our investments in Dinar.

Read more: http://dinarvets.com.../#ixzz1dBKjiuZb

Indeed...for all of her bragging about understanding the social depths of people and her own intellect (now removed from her profile)...she couldn't ONCE find the articulation it requires to comment on her own thread replies. So basically, there you have it...her "studies" of the social mind must have come to a halt. She cannot brag that she understands us anymore than she can understand herself.

Sad...if I make a post...good, bad, indifferent...I usually at least have the back bone and fortification to follow up with my posts. It is clear as stated by BrokeNoMore...so early in this run away train...that she got what she came for. She stirred the pot in a social experiment and then stepped back to watch. Her personal profile as it has been re-written, I think is a farce. If true, however, I do not hold the opinion of her that she suggests in her newly written "farewell speach". In my opinion...she holds that opinion of herself.

Peace to you, too, Tif

I certainly hope you find some.

[dhardage]

ok caught, but why close the thread while there are still people interested in the topic, and although there has been SOME nastiness, not nearly as much as some of the Dinar threads I have seen. Yes, I believe Tiff wanted to stir things up. I believe that she got angry that people did not bow down to her brilliance, but if it is a topic people will participate in, nothing wrong with it IMO.

[caughtinthecrossfire]

ok caught, but why close the thread while there are still people interested in the topic, and although there has been SOME nastiness, not nearly as much as some of the Dinar threads I have seen. Yes, I believe Tiff wanted to stir things up. I believe that she got angry that people did not bow down to her brilliance, but if it is a topic people will participate in, nothing wrong with it IMO.

TRUE dat....my appologeeeez, Ma'am. Please, strike the request. Carry on.

hehehe

[dhardage]

TRUE dat....my appologeeeez, Ma'am. Please, strike the request. Carry on.

hehehe:rolleyes:

*hands caught a heiny*

[caughtinthecrossfire]

By the way...keep an eye on bald1

He really reminds me of Albert Einstein with that last comment he made!

gud stuff

[dhardage]

By the way...keep an eye on bald1

He really reminds me of Albert Einstein with that last comment he made!

gud stuff

thx for the tip

[BrokeNoMore]

Are you saying that all those who never knew or wanted to know God have an Evil Heart? Please tell me I misunderstood!

You didn't misunderstand. You totally twisted my statement around. I started with evil heart and finished with never knew or wanted to know. Good greif.

And I am not the judge of whose heart is evil and whose is not. Except in a few specific cases in real life.

Thus goes the theory. Lots of gray in the middle.

[Dean_H]

You didn't misunderstand. You totally twisted my statement around. I started with evil heart and finished with never knew or wanted to know. Good greif.

No, she asked for clarification. You said 'For those with an evil heart who never knew or wanted to know God'. This seems to say exactly what dhardage asked about. Do you mean that those who never knew or wanted to know God have an evil heart because that is what your words imply. If that's not what you mean then all you need to do is make your point in a less ambiguous fashion and provide clarfication if needed.