Offended Atheists Strike Again

[Markinsa]

Offended Atheists Strike Again

By David FrenchPosted on November 01, 2011 12:09 PM The decades-long battle over religious symbols rages on. Earlier this year, American Atheists sued to block placement of the famous Ground Zero Cross in the 9/11 Memorial Museum (that case is ongoing). Yesterday, over Justice Thomas’s sharp dissent, the Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal from a case rejecting the use of crosses as roadside memorials to fallen Utah state troopers. And a controversy is currently building over the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s efforts to have the U.S. Forest Service remove an almost 60-year-old Jesus statue from public land in Montana.

The Montana statue was apparently erected by the Knights of Columbus to honor veterans of the 10th Mountain Division, who reported seeing similar shrines scattered in the Alps during their World War II service. The statue represents a piece of their military experience and has been beloved by skiers for years.

There is a consistent theme in each of these controversies — symbols of actual, historical significance are unacceptable (indeed, in the Utah cross case, deemed unlawful) because they also have religious meaning. To American Atheists and the Freedom from Religion Foundation, their goal (far more important to them than honoring the fallen or remembering history) is public land devoid of any religious symbolism — regardless of its context. This goal bears absolutely no relationship to the meaning or purpose of the Establishment Clause.

I hate to repeat myself, but this legal mess is the fruit of a poisonous legal quirk that grants “offended observers” of these monuments and displays a right that virtually no one else enjoys in the law — the right to sue merely because their feelings are hurt. Typically, citizens do not have the right to sue simply because a person’s words or actions offend them. Someone says something you don’t like? Tough. Respond to their speech with speech of your own. The government enacts a policy that offends you without censoring you or coercing you in any way? Tough. Use your vote and your voice to try to change the law. But in the Establishment Clause context, the Court has created “offended observer” standing, the right to sue merely because the sight of a monument is upsetting.

At the ACLJ, we’re writing a letter to the U.S. Forest Service urging it to renew the long-standing lease that permits the Montana statue to remain in place. (In fact, you can sign on to that letter, along with more than 35,000 others.) While we hope that the Forest Service will reach the correct decision, and the Freedom from Religion Foundation will understand the futility of its opposition, we also have to be prepared for the “offended observers” to once again stampede into court.

[Mick373]

Offended Atheists Strike Again

By David FrenchPosted on November 01, 2011 12:09 PM The decades-long battle over religious symbols rages on. Earlier this year, American Atheists sued to block placement of the famous Ground Zero Cross in the 9/11 Memorial Museum (that case is ongoing). Yesterday, over Justice Thomas’s sharp dissent, the Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal from a case rejecting the use of crosses as roadside memorials to fallen Utah state troopers. And a controversy is currently building over the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s efforts to have the U.S. Forest Service remove an almost 60-year-old Jesus statue from public land in Montana.

The Montana statue was apparently erected by the Knights of Columbus to honor veterans of the 10th Mountain Division, who reported seeing similar shrines scattered in the Alps during their World War II service. The statue represents a piece of their military experience and has been beloved by skiers for years.

There is a consistent theme in each of these controversies — symbols of actual, historical significance are unacceptable (indeed, in the Utah cross case, deemed unlawful) because they also have religious meaning. To American Atheists and the Freedom from Religion Foundation, their goal (far more important to them than honoring the fallen or remembering history) is public land devoid of any religious symbolism — regardless of its context. This goal bears absolutely no relationship to the meaning or purpose of the Establishment Clause.

I hate to repeat myself, but this legal mess is the fruit of a poisonous legal quirk that grants “offended observers” of these monuments and displays a right that virtually no one else enjoys in the law — the right to sue merely because their feelings are hurt. Typically, citizens do not have the right to sue simply because a person’s words or actions offend them. Someone says something you don’t like? Tough. Respond to their speech with speech of your own. The government enacts a policy that offends you without censoring you or coercing you in any way? Tough. Use your vote and your voice to try to change the law. But in the Establishment Clause context, the Court has created “offended observer” standing, the right to sue merely because the sight of a monument is upsetting.

At the ACLJ, we’re writing a letter to the U.S. Forest Service urging it to renew the long-standing lease that permits the Montana statue to remain in place. (In fact, you can sign on to that letter, along with more than 35,000 others.) While we hope that the Forest Service will reach the correct decision, and the Freedom from Religion Foundation will understand the futility of its opposition, we also have to be prepared for the “offended observers” to once again stampede into court.

We have got to get smarter, all the govenment needs to do is, separate out the property on which the religous item or symbol is located, and sale or lease it to a private individual or non government organization, that meets to US Supreme court ruling.

[Markinsa]

We have got to get smarter, all the govenment needs to do is, separate out the property on which the religous item or symbol is located, and sale or lease it to a private individual or non government organization, that meets to US Supreme court ruling.

How about we just quit the appeasing and pandering to the minority?

-

[tankdude]

How about we just quit the appeasing and pandering to the minority?

-

All I can say to that is - AMEN!

[ems]

How about we just quit the appeasing and pandering to the minority?

Well stated! Unfortunately, the squeeky wheel gets the greese and for the past 40 years all the whining has come from the minority. It's time we put up a fight and make it clear that we will not appease. Either accept our customs and history or go somewhere else.

[divemaster5734]

How about we just quit the appeasing and pandering to the minority?

-

The time to end this insane "political correctness" is now.

A guy that just graduated a commercial diver school was to meet his girlfriend at a beach, and planned to propose.

he got there early in order to do a dive with his brand new re-breather gear.

At the beach are a restaurant and a store on a pier, the ocean ends are anchored to very large chains, the anchors are around 80' deep.

There are several chains, going in several directions. Inside that are are octopus, and some very large fish.

He somehow got tangled up in the chains, ran out of air, and drowned.

It was a heart breaking story.

Some friends built a very nice memorial, a cross out of brass about 3' tall, with a plaque on a concrete base.

It was set at around 70', off to the side of the popular underwater park, but in an area only more advanced divers went to.

I didn't know about it, and "discovered" it with my dive buddy one day.

It was pretty cool, I'll try to find the picture on my dive camera.

Anyway, no one even complained about it, but once the city heard about it they sent a police dive team and took it away.

That memorial was enjoyed by every diver that was lucky enough to see it.

I agree whole heartily, this stupidity has to end.

[DinarRedneck]

How about we just quit the appeasing and pandering to the minority?

I reckon if you include those that don't actually practice their religion and are just 'catholic' or other religion by name only instead of practice...you'll find that the majority shifts majorly

Reckon this is why the atheists are able to push us around so much, people have lost faith, the best way to win this battle with the 'anti-religious' is to wear your faith on your sleeve, you'll find if YOU are a good PROUD Christian....others around you will want to have the inner light that you show and you can become a Shepherd and bring people to our Lord

Yall got to remember, its best to fight the good fight, bringing people to the lord builds our army and is ALOT more effective then trying to battle the devil yourself

Edited November 3, 2011 by DinarRedneck

[ems]

...wear your faith on your sleeve... you can become a Shepherd and bring people to our Lord

Yall got to remember, its best to fight the good fight, bringing people to the lord builds our army and is ALOT more effective then trying to battle the devil yourself

Amen! Very well stated.

[armondtoth]

I think since they don't like the word God we should with hold their paychecks because they obviously can't spend money with the word God on it. Then we should reposes their family car, kick their kids out of college and foreclose on their house. If you hate God that much then you can't spend Gods money.

[Goldeelox]

I think they are pitiful. According to Ray Comfort in his book, YOU CAN LEAD AN ATHEIST TO EVIDENCE BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE HIM THINK........To be an Atheist is like playing Russian Roulette with all barrels loaded. Freedom of choice is the best gift we have ever been given, and I really feel bad for these people.

[Mick373]

How about we just quit the appeasing and pandering to the minority?

-

I agree with you, but it is not going to happen, becasue of legal issues. Therefore address it legally. The ACLU is a 501 (c ) (3) organization. Therefore, you and I are indirectly supporting the organization. Tax deductible contributions and exempt from federal taxes. The ACLU is underminding the very foundations and beliefs the country was founded on.

[detroitjazzman]

It is a very sad situation we now find ourselves in. We've removed Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance from school... Remove "In God We Trust" from our money, and make our landscape void of anything that could symbolize God!..... Perhaps they want to close all the churches next. What we need to do as American's? Let's get rid of the law makers that don't understand the principles that our founding fathers envisioned. I'm not going on a soap box but I firmly believe God.....in what ever iteration you believe, is the beginning of everything and the end of everything. When we try to deny his existance, we may be denying our own existance. Just saying

[tankdude]

Just a quick follow up post. I live about 2 hours south of this area - and can tall you this is brewing up a big storm here in MT

http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2011/10/washington-post-will-knights-of-columbus-have-to-remove-ski-slopes-jesus-statue.php

[mcdinarut]

The sad part is that there are good people who may have differing opinions. I have a different belief than atheists, but I respect them for their beliefs. I know that there are good people in every religion. I'm sure there are several Atheists who would disagree with what is going on. But, there are the few who are pushing trying to push their agenda on everyone. This happens with every race, ethnicity and religion. Why can't we all just get along?

[colt32]

Offended Atheists Strike Again

By David FrenchPosted on November 01, 2011 12:09 PM The decades-long battle over religious symbols rages on. Earlier this year, American Atheists sued to block placement of the famous Ground Zero Cross in the 9/11 Memorial Museum (that case is ongoing). Yesterday, over Justice Thomas’s sharp dissent, the Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal from a case rejecting the use of crosses as roadside memorials to fallen Utah state troopers. And a controversy is currently building over the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s efforts to have the U.S. Forest Service remove an almost 60-year-old Jesus statue from public land in Montana.

The Montana statue was apparently erected by the Knights of Columbus to honor veterans of the 10th Mountain Division, who reported seeing similar shrines scattered in the Alps during their World War II service. The statue represents a piece of their military experience and has been beloved by skiers for years.

There is a consistent theme in each of these controversies — symbols of actual, historical significance are unacceptable (indeed, in the Utah cross case, deemed unlawful) because they also have religious meaning. To American Atheists and the Freedom from Religion Foundation, their goal (far more important to them than honoring the fallen or remembering history) is public land devoid of any religious symbolism — regardless of its context. This goal bears absolutely no relationship to the meaning or purpose of the Establishment Clause.

I hate to repeat myself, but this legal mess is the fruit of a poisonous legal quirk that grants “offended observers” of these monuments and displays a right that virtually no one else enjoys in the law — the right to sue merely because their feelings are hurt. Typically, citizens do not have the right to sue simply because a person’s words or actions offend them. Someone says something you don’t like? Tough. Respond to their speech with speech of your own. The government enacts a policy that offends you without censoring you or coercing you in any way? Tough. Use your vote and your voice to try to change the law. But in the Establishment Clause context, the Court has created “offended observer” standing, the right to sue merely because the sight of a monument is upsetting.

At the ACLJ, we’re writing a letter to the U.S. Forest Service urging it to renew the long-standing lease that permits the Montana statue to remain in place. (In fact, you can sign on to that letter, along with more than 35,000 others.) While we hope that the Forest Service will reach the correct decision, and the Freedom from Religion Foundation will understand the futility of its opposition, we also have to be prepared for the “offended observers” to once again stampede into court.

Why do the atheists care anyway? They don't believe in God so why would they be offended by a monument that would actually mean nothing to them? It's sheer lunacy. The very fact that they are offended means that they have some sense that there is a God and they don't like it when He is honored or they have to remember that they are most likely wrong. Deep in their conscience... they know there is a God or they wouldn't be offended.

Psalm 14:1

For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

[bamagirl]

I reckon if you include those that don't actually practice their religion and are just 'catholic' or other religion by name only instead of practice...you'll find that the majority shifts majorly

Reckon this is why the atheists are able to push us around so much, people have lost faith, the best way to win this battle with the 'anti-religious' is to wear your faith on your sleeve, you'll find if YOU are a good PROUD Christian....others around you will want to have the inner light that you show and you can become a Shepherd and bring people to our Lord

Yall got to remember, its best to fight the good fight, bringing people to the lord builds our army and is ALOT more effective then trying to battle the devil yourself

I think this is one of the best posts I have ever read on here...

[Lutie]

All I can say to that is - AMEN!

I'll double that !

[Tiffany23]

Markinasa Sweetie...as Ronald Reagan would say...There you go again!..When will you ever learn that as long as you are targeting Atheist or any Non-Christian Group, I, Tenacity Tiffy, Defender of the 1st Amendment will keep beating you back...all with love of course!

First of all people, recommend you read the 1st Amendment...it doesn't say that Christians get to write any law they want and exclude someone else . The Amendment prohibits the federal, state or municipal establishment of a religion or other preference for one religion over another, non-religion over religion, or religion over non-religion. Read it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

So if you do ANYTHING in the Public domain that favors some religion...then you, my fellow Americans are violating my rights. Get it. And pls don't throw the very tired, worn out and incorrect cliché out that America was built on on Christian faith. Our forefathers ESCAPED England because they got sick and tired of the Crown stuffing his religion down their throats. Oh and to stir the ant pile a bit more, Thomas Jefferson didn't even believe in the divinity of Jesus...but that's another story that you can read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

And as long as we are talking about stamping out the minority rights (very Un-American mind you), suggest you read this article....faith is going the way of the dodo bird. In another generation, American Christians will be the minority...then lets see you scream for your equal time then!. And before I rack up too many negatives..pls understand, I'm only doing what the Golden Rules says to do....that is... Do onto others as they do on to you!

Religion Going "Extinct" in Nine Countries

Ronald Bailey | March 24, 2011

A couple of engineers from Northwestern University have teamed up with a physicist from the University of Arizona and they have just published a study which suggests that religion, in this case Christianity, is on its way out in nine countries. Why? Because atheists (OK, the religiously unaffiliated) are becoming cooler than believers. The researchers claim:

We have developed a general framework for modeling competition between social groups and analyzed the behavior of the model under modest assumptions. We found that a particular case of the solution fits census data on competition between religious and irreligious segments of modern secular societies in 85 regions around the world. The model indicates that in these societies the perceived utility of religious non-affiliation is greater than that of adhering to a religion, and therefore predicts continued growth of non-affiliation, tending toward the disappearance of religion.

This is how CNN glosses the study:

Organized religion will all but vanish eventually from nine Western-style democracies, a team of mathematicians predict in a new paper based on census data stretching back 100 years.

It won't die out completely, but "religion will be driven toward extinction" in countries including Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Netherlands, they say.

It will also wither away in Austria, the Czech Republic, Finland and Switzerland, they anticipate.

They can't make a prediction about the United States because the U.S. census doesn't ask about religion, lead author Daniel Abrams told CNN.

But nine other countries provide enough data for detailed mathematical modeling, he said.

"If you look at the data, 'unaffiliated' is the fastest-growing group" in those countries, he said.

"We start with two big assumptions based on sociology," he explained.

The first is that it's more attractive to be part of the majority than the minority, so as religious affiliation declines, it becomes more popular not to be a churchgoer than to be one, he said - what Abrams calls the majority effect.

"People are more likely to switch to groups with more members," he said.

Social networks can have a powerful influence, he said.

"Just a few connections to people who are (religiously) unaffiliated is enough to drive the effect," he said.

The other assumption underlying the prediction is that there are social, economic and political advantages to being unaffiliated with a religion in the countries where it's in decline - what Abrams calls the utility effect.

"The utility of being unaffiliated seems to be higher than affiliated in Western democracies," he said.

CNN quotes the researchers as being somewhat surprised by the same general trend in the United States:

"I became interested in this because I saw survey data results for the U.S. and was surprised by how large the unaffiliated group was," he said, referring to a number of studies done by universities and think tanks on trends in religion.

Studies suggest that "unaffiliated" is the fastest-growing religious group in the United States, with about 15% of the population falling into a category experts call the "nones."

This is a trend that I spotlighted with my 2008 article, The New Age of Reason, in which I declared the end of America's Fourth Great Awakening:

Perhaps the best evidence that the evangelical phase of the Fourth Great Awakening is winding down is that large numbers of young Americans are falling away from organized religion, just as the country did in the period between the first two awakenings. In the 1970s, the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago found that between 5 percent and 7 percent of the public declared they were not religiously affiliated. By 2006 that figure had risen to 17 percent. The trend is especially apparent among younger Americans: In 2006 nearly a quarter (23 percent) of Americans in their 20s and almost as many (19 percent) of those in their 30s said they were nonaffiliated.

The Barna Group finds that only 60 percent of 16-to-29-year-olds identify themselves as Christians. By contrast, 77 percent of Americans over age 60 call themselves Christian. That is “a momentous shift,” the firm’s president told the Ventura County Star. “Each generation is becoming increasingly secular.”

Just as movies and the pill enticed people out of the pews, so is modern technology making it harder to impose any single moral vision. In the old days, Roman Catholics could pressure Hollywood to adopt a Production Code decreeing that “no picture shall be produced that will lower the moral standards of those who see it.” Today the means to produce video entertainment are increasingly cheap and the methods of distribution are becoming more and more decentralized. The notion that a book could be banned in Boston—or anywhere with an Internet service provider—is laughable. Social utilities like Facebook and MySpace encourage the proliferation of virtual communities....

In 1908 Clarence Darrow told the Personal Liberty League, “The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men’s business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs.” That has been true for a long time now, but we may finally be heading toward a better world—one where Americans are increasingly willing to live and let live.

However, the will to believe in something transcendent does seem deeply ingrained in people. This causes me to take seriously Christian apologist G.K. Chesterton's observation:

"When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything."*

Such as religion substitutes like Fascism and Communism. In many cases, the substitutes have proved as bad or worse than the original transcendent myths. As South Park co-creator and modern sage Matt Stone recently summed up the dilemma:

“At the end of the day, if the mass delusion of a religion makes you happy, makes your family work better, is that bad or good?”

A very good question.

*Apparently, this quotation is a actually a gloss on Chesterton from Emile Cammaert, who was a professor of Belgian studies. Tardy thanks for H&R commenter anarch for pointing this out

http://reason.com/blog/2011/03/24/religion-going-extinct-in-nine/print

[WallyWeaver]

America not a Christian nation at it's birth.... hmmmm.... wonder what the Founders would say to that.

John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." John Adams, December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |

“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia] Samuel Adams

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

Samuel Adams

“Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?

--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts. John Quincy Adams

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”

John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Benjamin Franklin, Constitutional Convention of 1787

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” Benjamin Franklin[Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." Alexander Hamilton [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”

—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia] James Madison

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.

Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)

A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.” Noah Webster

[source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook

in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..." George Washington

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" George Washington[May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

[Tiffany23]

Ok...Wally, I thought you knew better than to directly challenge me..but some people never learn.. .I'd send you to the exact site that counters your quotes, but I dont think you would read them..so, to offically squash your assertion, I'm going to carpet bomb you with quotes from Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, James Madison, Honest Abe, John Adams, Thomas Paine and the Big Guy himself...GW. Sit back and enjoy your world as you know it, coming to an end...all with love of course

. "It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others."

James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN 0-8975-298-X. pp. 237-238 .

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

.

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - Ibid, 1785

.

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

.

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."

.

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches

.

John Adams The second president of the United States was John Adams, lawyer and diplomat. Adams' public career lasted more than 35 years. He was second only to George Washington in making a place for the young United States among the nations of the world. In his devotion to the country he was second to none

Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe, Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

.

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

-letter to Thomas Jefferson

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"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."

- letter to John Taylor

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"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

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"The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"

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"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?" -letter to Thomas Jefferson

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"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."

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"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

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"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

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Thomas Jefferson The third president of the United States was Thomas Jefferson. He had been the author of the Declaration of Independence and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. In an age of great men Jefferson was remarkable for his wide-ranging curiosity on many subjects. He helped the United States get started, and his plans for the future helped it grow. Many of the good things Americans enjoy today have come from Jefferson's devotion to human rights. Jefferson is often called the founder of the Democratic party. Many other groups also claim to follow his principles. He developed the theory of states' rights, which was against giving much authority to the federal government. He is known to everyone as the author of the ringing statement in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal, that among their inalienable rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. His writings have stood as a torch to the defenders of individual freedom, in spiritual as well as in worldly affairs. .

Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe

Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Thomas Jefferson, because he was the author of the Declaration of Independence and the embodiment of our nation's expressions of freedom, is the Founding Father who is most often claimed by the Christians as one of their own. Unfortunately-- for them-- he left behind many writings which lead us to conclude that his beliefs were quite different from those of the common christian. The claim that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian can only be made by someone who has never read his original writings. Christians may think that just because he mentions "god", that makes him a Christian just like them. Jefferson absolutely believed in a god-- but not the god of orthodox Christianity. He was a Deist (Nature's God), not a Christian (the trinitarian God of Abraham and Isaac).

Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the Trinity, and he said so:

"The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs." -- Letter to James Smith, December 8, 1822

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet the one is not three, and the three are not one: to divide mankind by a single letter into ["consubstantialists and like-substantialists"]. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more flies. We should all then, like the quakers, live without an order of priests, moralise for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe; for I suppose belief to be the assent of the mind to an intelligible proposition." -- Jefferson's Letter to John Adams, August 22, 1813

(John Adams' reply to this letter shows that he did not believe in the Trinity either): "The human understanding is a revelation from its maker, which can never be disputed or doubted. There can be no scepticism, Pyrrhonism, or incredulity or infidelity here. No prophecies, no miracles are necessary to prove this celestical communication. This revelation has made it certain that two and one make three, and that one is not three nor can three be one. We can never be so certain of any prophecy, or the fulfilment of any prophecy, or of any miracle, or the design of any miracle, as we are from the revelation of nature, that is, nature's God, that two and two are equal to four." --Adam's Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 14 September 1813

Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, and he said so:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

Jefferson was a rationalist. He believed that Jesus was a pure and ethical teacher of morals. To that end, Jefferson took a razor to the New Testament and removed passages he thought to have been inserted by the authors of the gospels (whom he called the "commentators"), and he pasted what remained together as "The Jefferson Bible". With his razor blade, he removed every verse dealing with the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, claims of Jesus' divinity and other puerile superstition, thus leaving us with a very much shorter book. In 1904, the Jefferson Bible was printed by order of Congress, and for many years was presented to all newly elected members of that body.

"No one sees with greater pleasure than myself the progress of reason in its advances towards rational Christianity. When we shall have done away the incomprehensible jargon of the Trinitarian arithmetic, that three are one, and one is three; when we shall have knocked down the artificial scaffolding, raised to mask from view the simple structure of Jesus; when, in short, we shall have unlearned everything which has been taught since His day, and get back to the pure and simple doctrines He inculcated, we shall then be truly and worthily His disciples; and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed purely from His lips, the whole world would at this day have been Christian. I know that the case you cite, of Dr. Drake, has been a common one. The religion-builders have so distorted and deformed the doctrines of Jesus, so muffled them in mysticisms, fancies and falsehoods, have caricatured them into forms so monstrous and inconceivable, as to shock reasonable thinkers, to revolt them against the whole, and drive them rashly to pronounce its Founder an imposter. Had there never been a commentator, there never would have been an infidel." -- Jefferson's Letter to Timothy Pickering, 21 Feb 1821

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.

1. That there is one only God, and he all perfect.

2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments.

3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion.

These are the great points on which he endeavored to reform the religion of the Jews. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin:

1. That there are three Gods.

2. That good works, or love of our neighbor, are nothing.

3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit in the faith.

4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.

5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save.

Now, which of these is the true and charitable Christian? He who believes and acts on the simple doctrines of Jesus? Or the impious dogmatists, as Athanasius and Calvin? Verily I say these are the false shepherds fortold as to enter not by the door into the sheepfold, but to climb up some way. They are mere usurpers of the Christian name, teaching a counter-religion made up of the deliria of crazy imaginations, as foreign from Christianity as is that of Mohomet. Their blasphemies have driven thinking men into infidelity, who have too hastily rejected the supposed author himself, with the horrors so falsely imputed to him. Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christian. I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one only God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die an Unitarian." --Jefferson's letter to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26 1822

Jefferson was called an ATHEIST by Christian ministers of his day, who tried to block his presidency! How can Christians claim him now as one of them, now that he's dead?!

http://www.newwest.net/city/article/thomas_jefferson_atheist_and_leveler_from_virginia/C108/L108/

"As to the calumny of Atheism, I am so broken to calumnies of every kind, from every department of government, Executive, Legislative, and Judiciary, and from every minion of theirs holding office or seeking it, that I entirely disregard it, and from Chace it will have less effect than from any other man in the United States. It has been so impossible to contradict all their lies, that I have determined to contradict none; for while I should be engaged with one, they would publish twenty new ones." -- Jefferson's Letter to James Monroe, May 26, 1800

The most famous ‘out of context’ religious quote of Thomas Jefferson is to be found in the Jefferson Memorial in Washington D.C. Around the rotunda of the Jefferson Memorial, in large gold letters, is the quote: “I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD, ETERNAL HOSTILITY AGAINST EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN.” The quote was taken, completely out of context from a letter that Jefferson wrote to Dr. Benjamin Rush September 23, 1800. The quote put in its original context says just the opposite of the pious sentiment it is made to say. In his letter to Dr. Rush Jefferson is talking about the Christian clergy who were working against his being elected President by saying Jefferson was an infidel. The complete quote says: “The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their (the Christian clergy) hopes, and they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” So we see that in his letter Jefferson is saying that the “tyranny over the mind of man” that he is opposed to are the schemes of the Christian clergy, and the god he is referring to is the god of Deism, not the god of the Christians.

"If by religion we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your exclamation on that hypothesis is just, "that this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." But if the moral precepts, innate in man, and made a part of his physical constitution, as necessary for a social being, if the sublime doctrines of philanthropism and deism taught us by Jesus of Nazareth, in which all agree, constitute true religion, then, without it, this would be, as you again say, "something not fit to be named even, indeed, a hell." -- Letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, May 5, 1817

Thomas Jefferson did not believe that Jesus was God, and he said so:

"The office of reformer of the superstitions of a nation is ever dangerous. Jesus had to walk on the perilous confines of reason and religion; and a step to right or left might place Him within the grasp of the priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the Being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. They were constantly laying snares, too, to entangle Him in the web of the law. He was justifiable, therefore, in avoiding these by evasions, by sophisms, by misconstructions and misapplications of scraps of the prophets, and in defending Himself with these their own weapons, as sufficient, ad homines, at least. That Jesus did not mean to impose Himself on mankind as the Son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in the lore." -- Thomas Jefferson's letter to William Short, August 4, 1820

To claim that Jefferson was a Christian is outright dishonest. He was a MATERIALIST, and he said so:

"But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." -- letter to William Short, April 13, 1820; Definition of a Materialist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

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"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - "Notes on Virginia"

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"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. - letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

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"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

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"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." - to Carey, 1816

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"Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --Notes on Virginia.

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"Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a slaughter-house." - to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822

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"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."

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"They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."

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"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

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"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."

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"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever." -Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

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"... I am not afraid of priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance on whom their interested duperies were to be played off. Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself." - letter to Horatio Spofford, 1816

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

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"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

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"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

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"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

-letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT "The Complete Jefferson" by Saul K. Padover, pp 518-519

More about Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

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George Washington Many United States presidents are honored for their great work, but two stand above all others-- George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln is remembered for his great human qualities. Washington is beloved as the "father of his country." Washington was a "father" in many ways. He was commander in chief of the American forces in the American Revolution, chairman of the convention that wrote the United States Constitution, and first president. He led the men who turned America from an English colony into a self-governing nation. His ideals of liberty and democracy set a standard for future presidents and for the whole country. Washington seemed somewhat cold and formal to the public. With his family and friends he often relaxed. He helped family and friends with gifts and loans, asking only that they would not reveal the donor. However, he was quick to say "no" when he felt imposed upon. Washington's memory is held in honor by his fellow countrymen and by the world. The enemies and critics who attacked him in war and in peace are now largely forgotten. His name has become a byword for honor, loyalty, and love of country.

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The father of this country was very private about his beliefs, but it is widely considered that he was a Deist like his colleagues. He was a Freemason.

Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]

Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." [Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15]

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"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."

- letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

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"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself." -Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, Feb. 1800

More about Washington's Beliefs

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Benjamin Franklin Few men have done as much for the world as Benjamin Franklin. Although he was always proud to call himself a printer, Franklin had many other talents as well. He was a diplomat, a scientist, an inventor, a philosopher, an educator, and a public servant. Any one of Franklin's many accomplishments would have been enough to make him famous. He organized the first library in America, and the U.S. Postal System. He invented many things, including the lightning rod and the Franklin stove. Franklin amazed scientists throughout the world with his experiments in electricity. In Europe, Benjamin Franklin was the most famous American of his time. It was he who persuaded the English to repeal the hated Stamp Act. It was also he who convinced the French to aid in the American Revolution. Franklin helped draft both the Declaration of Independence and the American Constitution.

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"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did."

- letter to his father, 1738

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

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"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."

- "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728

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"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

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"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."

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"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -in Poor Richard's Almanac

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"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -in Poor Richard's Almanac

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"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

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"I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."

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"In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it."

"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

More about Franklin's Deism

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Thomas Paine was the "firebrand of the American Revolution." His writings brought courage in times of crisis. The first was in January 1776. At that time the colonies were still split on the question of declaring their independence from Great Britain. Some instructed their delegates in the Continental Congress to act against separation from the mother country. Thousands of colonists were undecided. On January 10 Paine published a pamphlet, 'Common Sense'. To rally the faltering he wrote: "Freedom has been hunted around the globe. Asia and Africa have expelled her . . . and England has given her warning to depart. O, receive the fugitive and prepare in time an asylum for mankind!" Colonists up and down the seaboard read this stirring call to action. George Washington himself said it turned doubt into decision--for independence.

As a young man he sailed to America from England, carrying letters of introduction from Benjamin Franklin, whom he had met in London. Franklin recommended him for the "genius in his eyes." Franklin's letters got him the post of assistant editor of the new Pennsylvania Magazine in Philadelphia. One of his essays denounced slavery in the colonies.

In England he published 'Rights of Man' in 1791, in support of the French Revolution. Today the book seems moderate, but it so stirred Britain that he was indicted for treason. He fled to France and was elected to the National Convention. There he opposed the execution of Louis XVI. His humanitarian stand won him the ill will of the Jacobins, and he escaped the guillotine only through the fall of Maximilien Robespierre. After ten months in prison he was released and aided by James Monroe, then United States ambassador to France and later U.S. president.

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"The New Testament, they tell us, is founded upon the prophecies of the Old; if so, it must follow the fate of its foundation.''

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"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."

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"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

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"What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."

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"Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."

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"We do not admit the authority of the church with respect to its pretended infallibility, its manufactured miracles, its setting itself up to forgive sins. It was by propagating that belief and supporting it with fire that she kept up her temporal power."

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"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

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"The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius Caesar."

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

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"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."

-More of Thomas Paine's writings Online

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Ethan Allen, Revolutionary War Hero

"I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am one or not."

preface, Reason the Only Oracle of Man

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Abraham Lincoln, although not a Founding Father, was an extremely influential and important U.S. President. He is considered, after George Washington, the greatest of presidents. Every child is taught about Lincoln's birth in a log cabin, but what is not taught is that he rejected Christianity, never joined a church, and even wrote a treatise against religion.

At times religious wording was written into Lincoln's speeches, but such public soothes were brought at the insistence of White House staff members. In 1843, after he lost a campaign for Congress, he wrote to his supporters: "It was everywhere contended that no Christian ought to vote for me because I belonged to no church, and was suspected of being a Deist."

When Lincoln was first considered for the presidential nomination, Logan Hay wrote to his nephew, the future Secretary of State John Hay: "Candor compels me to say that Mr. Lincoln could hardly be termed a devout believer in the authenticity of the Bible (but this is for your ears only)."

Interviewer Opie Read once asked Lincoln about his conception of God, to which he replied: "The same as my conception of nature." When he was asked what he meant by that, he said: "That it is impossible for either to be personal."

His former law partner, William Herndon, said of him after his assassination: "[Mr. Lincoln] never mentioned the name of Jesus, except to scorn and detest the idea of a miraculous conception. He did write a little work on infidelity in 1835-6, and never recanted. He was an out-and-out infidel, and about that there is no mistake." He also said that Lincoln "assimilated into his own being" the heretical book Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.

Lincoln's first law partner, John T. Stuart, said of him: "He was an avowed and open infidel, and sometimes bordered on atheism. He went further against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I have ever heard."

Supreme Court Justice David Davis: "He [Lincoln] had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term-- he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects."

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"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."

-Spoken by Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis

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[Francie26]

How about we just quit the appeasing and pandering to the minority?

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Now there'a an idea!! WOW!! Imagine that!! Simply refusing to pander to these people!! I'd vote for that in a heartbeat!!

Another idea.... Why don't they bring them to a vote of the American people? I'm pretty sure we would keep our mottos and monuments, if we did this. Can't we get a vote passed that would require this? It would give all Americans a say in each of them, not just the objectors, and would free up the courts. We could save them all up and include them, to be marked individually, on a special ballot at the national elections each four years. I think it would work.

[Tiffany23]

Francies, luv...it doesn't matter what the majority votes...I'm guaranteed my 1st Amendment Rights....good luck trying to get the 1st Amendment appealed.

For smart people, some of you sure seem ignorant...so let me make a very simple statement: America was set up to protect the INDIVIDUAL's rights, not the majority wants. That is what makes us the Greatest Nation...because we do what is right not what is POPULAR.

For those minorities that came before Atheist, like woman, Jews, Catholics, Blacks, Hispancis, Asians, Gays, the poor....you should be very thankful that we look out for you first and not get hung by the lynch crowd!

[Markinsa]

Francies, luv...it doesn't matter what the majority votes...I'm guaranteed my 1st Amendment Rights....good luck trying to get the 1st Amendment appealed.

For smart people, some of you sure seem ignorant...so let me make a very simple statement: America was set up to protect the INDIVIDUAL's rights, not the majority wants. That is what makes us the Greatest Nation...because we do what is right not what is POPULAR.

For those minorities that came before Atheist, like woman, Jews, Catholics, Blacks, Hispancis, Asians, Gays, the poor....you should be very thankful that we look out for you first and not get hung by the lynch crowd!

You talk about rights, where is the Christian's rights? Why are your belief's given priorty over mine? Why are God believing people denied the right to have their children taught Intelligent Design in School, but instead are taught they come from monkies? Evolution is a Theory, it isn't science. Why is it ok for Christian Children to be taught about the Muslim Faith, but they opposite isn't? Do you see the discrimination? I sure do.

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[bamagirl]

You talk about rights, where is the Christian's rights? Why are your belief's given priorty over mine? Why are God believing people denied the right to have their children taught Intelligent Design in School, but instead are taught they come from monkies? Evolution is a Theory, it isn't science. Why is it ok for Christian Children to be taught about the Muslim Faith, but they opposite isn't? Do you see the discrimination? I sure do.

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Great post Mark, +1000 if I could!!!!

Tiffany, if you are guaranteed your 1st ammendment right then why is my 2nd ammendment right always in question and looking to be 'ammended'??

[Tiffany23]

Markinsa....pls understand that I am not looking for any type of fight, only to enlighten you...personally, I think you are a wonderful person...and admire your convictions.

In another like post, I stated the following:

In this article….72 Nobel Prize Winners endorsed Natural Selection, it goes on to state that 99.9% of scientist in the fields of biology, paleontology and anthropology support NS : http://en.wikipedia....t_for_evolution

This article states that .015 percentage of scientist support creationism. http://www.talkorigi...c/CA/CA111.html

Now, what more can I do to convince you that NS is not a theory? How do you know that the world isn't flat? The bible states that the Sun moves around the Earth....do you still believe that as well? It's science that proves the Earth is round and that it revolves around the Sun.

Honestly, I have to ask, have you ever taken Biology or any science class? I don't mean to be condescending, but perhaps you don't know all the steps that are required for Scentific Method of Problem solving, which include:

1. State the Problem - A problem can't be solved if it isn't understood.

2. Form a Hypothesis - This is a possible solution to the problem formed after gathering information about the problem. The term "research" is properly applied here.

3. Test the Hypothesis - An experiment is performed to determine if the hypothesis solves the problem or not. Experiments are done to gather data. It is very important that good observations and records are made during an experiment.

4. Collect the Data - This is where you record your observations, measurements, or information from experiment.

5. Analyze the Data - Just what does all that data indicate about answering the problem you are solving?

6. Draw Conclusions - After examining the data from the experiment, conclusions can be drawn. In it's simplest form, the conclusion will be "yes" the hypothesis was correct, or "no" the hypothesis was not correct Anonymous

7. Publish Finding and request Peer Review

So in the case of NS, the very top scientist from a variety of cultures, religions and fields ALL state that NS is fact.

If you don't want to take what they say as the truth, then why do you drive a car, or watch tv, or use the computer..because these same people, made all this possible...just saying.