IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE

[Nelg]

Another Harold Camping story.

Who is Harold Camping?

[ATHIM]

Nelg -

The books of the Bible were chosen from many writings and many Gospels. It was the FATHERS of the Church that selected and understood what and why they were selected. Don’t attempt to negate the living tradition of the Church the Bible has its part but it is not the whole.

You are a self proclaimed saint, but you are still alive, not dead and incomplete. The saints that lived and died a life worthy of praise and eternal recognition never called themselves saints, they called themselves unworthy sinners. See how calling yourself a saint flies in the face of humility and surely boasts of spiritual recklessness.

What is a "believer in Christ" anyway, the devil knows that He is the Lord and believes in him also, will he be saved? Proclaiming Jesus as Lord and even doing miracles in His name is not enough to get you the golden ticket.

You are not part of the Church by your own admission. The indwelt Holy Spirit, as you call it, has given you the Church so that you don’t have to fumble around on your own. When you run in the Olympics you need a trainer/coach and facility. The priest and the Church are those tools. You do need a guide because you misinterpret and lead others over the cliff to your own demise.

It is not "their faith or creed" that us dumb Orthodox Christians accept, it is the faith Christ established and the creed His Apostles made to protect the truth from heretic teachings and disobedience the likes of which many such as yourself profess as the new truth.

You have one creed, the bible, through which you nullify the cross and make the truth of the Gospel nonsense because you don’t know or understand the hidden or even obvious meaning of the words.

The truth is not open for interpretation. Take it up with God and see if you can convince Him.

You are obedient to God, my foot. You are a sinner and fall short of obedience, well short.

If I am mistake about what Jesus said regarding His Body and Blood. PROVE IT!!! The true Saints from the beginning till now attest that the teaching is correct. It may not be a difficult passage to understand with the mind but it is only understood by faith.

As far as your take on the last supper? You need to go back to the books buddy. “26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

What you believe does not nullify what God knows and does through His unworthy servants the priests and according to Jesus, the saints and Martyrs you are still spiritually comatose. Receiving the Eucharist and understanding what you are receiving is the pinnacle of our spiritual pilgrimage there is no higher spiritual attainment on this world or the next. Some people receive communion unto eternal salvation, some unto eternal damnation it is a two edge sword. Communion is not a game even though many believers treat it as such; it is the real power of God to save souls.

We dumb down salvation so that it fits into our pockets. Do you confess your sins to His Priests as Jesus instructed. John 20:23 If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." What does that mean cowboy? I guess we can just chalk it up to another metaphor.

The list of these goes on and on unto eternal life or damnation. I invite you to come and teach the Greeks about the truth of the gospel. The English language does not even contain the words to give proper translation. Go to a Greek Orthodox Church in your area and teach the Priest about what true faith is, your cover has so many holes in it God may drop you at the door.

Humility is the key.

[Markinsa]

Humility is the key.

So what must one do to be saved and inherit eternal life? Are you saying, I must participate in Communion to inherit eternal life?

-

[iceni]

heavyduty...did you expect this kind of dialogue from your original post?

Brother...you have certainly started a hornets nest here.

I've been gone for the day and first thing I did late tonight is check on the replies to this topic.

WOW...don't know where to begin.

Certainly can't begin to respond to every comment and question.

Looks like a lot of oxen were gored here.

Truth has a way of antagonizing those who can't let go of their traditions of men.

That goes for both Protestants and Roman Catholics.

They rather believe what is taught from the pulpits than take the time to do their own investigations and research.

If they don't say it outright they most likely think the following subconsciously..."Please, my mind is made up so don't confuse me with the facts."

If that is their mindset then hey, who am I to dissuade them from believing what they want to believe.

Facts are facts and truth is truth no matter what one might want to believe.

Most people believed the earth was flat at one time and that the sun revolved around the earth.

Just because people believed it did that make it true?

Today science and geology is proving that many things we have believed in the past to be true is in fact wrong.

Many Christians are still in a state of denial not realizing that a lot of their beliefs is from the dark ages when science and archeological data was minimal and they depended more on traditions of men with much of it based on pagan fables.

Guess I'll get some interesting comments regarding these statements.

If this doesn't do it then maybe I'll post a 10 part series on a much more of an in-depth study debunking the so-called rapture doctrine.

All right...hit me.

ice

[estewart]

heavyduty...did you expect this kind of dialogue from your original post?

Brother...you have certainly started a hornets nest here.

I've been gone for the day and first thing I did late tonight is check on the replies to this topic.

WOW...don't know where to begin.

Certainly can't begin to respond to every comment and question.

Looks like a lot of oxen were gored here.

Truth has a way of antagonizing those who can't let go of their traditions of men.

That goes for both Protestants and Roman Catholics.

They rather believe what is taught from the pulpits than take the time to do their own investigations and research.

If they don't say it outright they most likely think the following subconsciously..."Please, my mind is made up so don't confuse me with the facts."

If that is their mindset then hey, who am I to dissuade them from believing what they want to believe.

Facts are facts and truth is truth no matter what one might want to believe.

Most people believed the earth was flat at one time and that the sun revolved around the earth.

Just because people believed it did that make it true?

Today science and geology is proving that many things we have believed in the past to be true is in fact wrong.

Many Christians are still in a state of denial not realizing that a lot of their beliefs is from the dark ages when science and archeological data was minimal and they depended more on traditions of men with much of it based on pagan fables.

Guess I'll get some interesting comments regarding these statements.

If this doesn't do it then maybe I'll post a 10 part series on a much more of an in-depth study debunking the so-called rapture doctrine.

All right...hit me.

ice

Sorry to disappoint you!

But you will get no argument from me on any of that.

Looking forward to the 10 parts.

[iceni]

So what must one do to be saved and inherit eternal life? Are you saying, I must participate in Communion to inherit eternal life?

-

Markinsa;

Couldn't pass up in responding as what you asked and quoted is of utmost importance.

First of all in answer to your question about saved.

1. Repent of your sins (which is the disobedience of God's Law-Word)

2. Believe that Jesus is the Christ and that He was born of a virgin and died and was resurrected as prophesied.

3. Be baptized.for the remission of sins and as a witness.

Although that is a 3 point summary there is a whole lot more to each of these that requires a fuller understanding of the whole Word of God to have a greater appreciation of it.

As for communion...it is taken in remembrance of God's work on Calvary, the love He bestowed on His creation and His people, taking on the sins of the world.

Again, this is just a summary of a much greater explanation and understanding of god's overall plans and purposes for His creation with the ultimate goal of the complete restoration of all things.

Trust this helps a little towards answering your questions.

ice

@ice

Whoa! I am in awe. Never thought I would ever be impressed by anyone thumping the Bible, so to speak. Pretty impressive, indeed. Prolly hurt a few poor peep's feelings, here, though. You will likely experience a strong back lash. So, gird yourself.

I am interested in the extent of your studies, ice. Have you studied about Paul? I should maybe mention I have a real respect for authentic words of Jesus (the so called Lord's Prayer isn't among them), but little for Paul. In my view, the Christian church became utterly corrupted at the onset, and by Paul.

Jesus appointed a certain one of his disciples to lead the church into the future, and as a kind of mystical-minded joke named the person, Peter. Petros. Which means, rock. This in turn meant, FOUNDATION. Peter was supposed to be the foundation of the church. But another man trumped him. And that man's name was Saul. This is the same man who made the incredible claim that over 500 people witnessed the risen Christ at the same time, at a gathering. Paul wasn't there. He was supposedly but simply reporting on the event. Passing it on in passing. Just a side remark. (Sorry I don't recall the chapter and verse.). With that many witnesses one would think that the most incredible event of all time and history would have been reported also by others, considering just how many there was present. All through his writings he sets the tone for modern day Evangelists' style of preaching, like the "fundamental" exaggerated performances. It's like Paul sanctified it all.

Have you studied about Paul and how he had been a Roman soldier bent on persecution of Christians? Are you aware of the so-called, Secret Religion of the Roman Soldiers? That region was called, Mithraism. And one of the main features of this religion concerned the sending of a goat out in the desert to suffer and die as a sacrifice for the expiation of the sins committed that year by the Roman soldiers. I am going to claim here (though this is actually not my own idea) that what Paul mainly did was he took his Mithra religion and translated it into Christianity with the idea that Christ suffered and died on the cross for the ridding of sins of those that "believe" in him. All Paul's idea! He made it up. I am not aware that Jesus said anything about anything such matter as that, so modern Christianity is misnamed. It should be called, Paulinism. He mostly invented it.

One of the main problems of modern Christianity is that it does not have a clue in consideration of metaphors.

Jesus was asked, "Why do you speak in parables." He said, to paraphrase it, "It is because you aren't ready to hear the straight dope. You have not spiritually matured enough, yet." And he indicated that there were incredible things he could tell, but none of it would be understood. So he makes a point to keep things simple by using parables, which are but symbolic stories. And those parables are just one type of symbology among many others in the Bible. But modern Christians, it seems, are no more mature than they were back at the start as they seem to have no clue as to the use of symbols, and, thus, dramatically, fanatically, take ideas and things at their face value.

Just as our governments of the world have become corrupted, so have religions. I sometimes watch the Sunday preachers on TV, in amazement. They are all very much alike. I believe they study each other. Copy each other's moves. I am astounded how anyone could accept any of that malarkey. Basically, it is all a scam business and art to suck wealth out of poor peoples pockets, and it hinges on what was done in the past by powerful people inventing ridged doctrines and beliefs for the sake of enslaving a population's mind body and soul. This is spiritual enslavement. To get really dramatic, here, it is like it's the work of the Devil himself. But the believers just close their minds to the idea of learning and evolving on their own power and initiative and become spiritually stuck as a result. Stopped. In a sense, dead. See? If one is not actively living one's life it is the same as being dead.

The immediate foregoing is a point from a series of books I am working on which will be called, the GUIDE Book. It is a set of books concerning spiritual guidance, and alternate Dimensions of Consciousness, but I expect them to be seriously attacked by the fundamentalist community. Their subtitle, is, A Metaphorical Psychology Series. In an early draft stage they were asked for by the Professor of Psychology at the University of Duquesne in Pittsburgh for use as text books. But they were not developed enough for me feel I could let them go yet.

You mentioned about how Jesus emphasized the idea that one should remain in a state of expectation, in my terms. My books present the understanding that one needs to expect the unexpected. The idea is that such an attitude keeps one from developing a closed mind. It helps to keep one alive, alert. On one's toes. It is a means for enabling a quality of spiritual vitality to ever be present. It allows Life Force to be able to enter the body and the mind. And, tell me, WHAT MODERN RELIGION TEACHES ANYTHING LIKE THIS? None do. At least, as far as I know. I say, they all fail. They actually oppose congregation members from doing doing anything but BELIEVING what they are told to believe. No inquiry such as you are doing is permitted. No investigation. It's like such questioning is the work of the Devil, himself, at least this is the idea stemming from the modern pulpit, or the TV screen.

We live in a truly Dark Age.

estewart;

ALTHOUGH I GET A SENSE OF BITTERNESS IN YOUR COMMENTS HERE I WILL NEVERTHELESS RESPOND TO THEM AS BEST I CAN WITHOUT WRITING AN ESSAY.

REF PAUL'S MINISTRY, YES, I HAVE STUDIED HIS WRITINGS AS WELL AS THE OTHER APOSTLES.

HE QUOTES THE O.T. QUITE EXTENSIVELY.

YOUR OPINION OF HIM HAS LITTLE OR NO SUBSTANCE.

CAN YOU BE SPECIFIC ABOUT YOUR ASSUMPTION THAT HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EARLY CHURCH BECOMING CORRUPT?

WHAT IS IT ABOUT LORD'S PRAYER THAT YOU DON'T LIKE?

YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG WITH YOUR ANALYSIS HERE.

PETER WAS NOT THE FOUNDATION OR THE ROCK.

JESUS WAS / IS.

SAUL, BEFORE HIS CONVERSION AND NAME CHANGE, WAS NOT AT THE ASCENSION BUT ONLY REPORTED AND REFERRED TO WHAT OTHERS SHARED WITH HIM.

AS FOR YOUR DISLIKE FOR PAUL I HAVE TO ASSUME THAT IT IS BASED ON YOUR OWN DISLIKE OF HIS AND/OR ANYONE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST AND HIS LAW-WORD.

PAUL PERSECUTED THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BEFORE HIS CONVERSION.

AS FOR ALL YOUR ABOVE ASSERTIONS, PLEASE GIVE ME CHAPTER AND VERSES.

DO NOT USE A BLANKET STATEMENT LIKE THIS UNTIL YOU HAVE TALKED TO ALL OF THEM

I AGREE THAT MANY CHURCHES DON'T HAVE THE UNDERSTANDING ...YET.

GOD HAS BLINDED THEM FOR A TIME TO ACCOMPLISH HIS PURPOSES.

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU ON SOME POINTS HERE.

JESUS SPOKE IN PARABLES TO MAKE CERTAIN POINTS REGARDING PROPHESIES AND THE KINGDOM AGE TO COME.

IT WAS NOT FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON TO UNDERSTAND AT THAT TIME AND EVEN HIS DISCIPLES DID NOT IMMEDIATELY UNDERSTAND THEM. THERE WERE ALSO OTHER TIMES WHEN HE SPOKE IN PARABLES THAT HE HAD TO EXPLAIN IT MORE DETAIL. MOST OF WHAT JESUS SPOKE HAD ITS FOUNDATIONS IN THE O.T. WHICH MOST CHRISTIANS HAVE VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF.

UNFORTUNATELY, SOME OF WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT TELEVANGELISTS IS TRUE.

CANNED SERMONS DO BRING IN THE BUCKS.

MUCH OF WHAT IS BEING PREACHED IS WITHOUT SCRIPTURAL FOUNDATION AND JUST MORE TRADITIONS OF MAN BASED ON A LOT OF PAGAN BELIEFS, SUCH AS HELL AND HEAVEN AS ONE EXAMPLE.

SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU ARE INTO THE PHILOSOPHY THAT MAN CAN BECOME LIKE GOD THROUGH THEIR OWN EFFORTS.

MOST DEFINITELY A DEAD END.

IT WAS TRIED BACK IN THE GARDEN AND YOU CAN SEE WHERE THAT GOT US.

estewart

BASED ON YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT, I HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT YOU ARE INTO YOURSELF AND THAT YOU DO NOT RECOGNIZE NOR ACCEPT THAT JESUS IS THE WORD AS DESCRIBED IN JOHN 1:1 AND AS THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS THAT HE IS THE ONLY GOD AND THAT HE DOES RULE IN THE AFFAIRS OF MEN AND THAT ALL WHO DO COME TO ACCEPT HIM FOR WHO HE IS AND WILL REPENT OF OUR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS AND FOLLOW HIS LAW-WORD AND THAT BEING SAVED IS A PROCESS THAT WILL EVENTUALLY BRING US TO THAT GREAT DAY WHEN CHRIST HIMSELF WILL COME TO RULE AND REIGN VIA HIS KINGDOM ON THIS EARTH. THAT DAY IS FAST APPROACHING AS MYSTERY BABYLON IS ABOUT TO FALL AND THE LIGHT OF GOD'S GLORY WILL SHINE THROUGHOUT THE EARTH FOR EVERMORE.

ice

Edited September 1, 2011 by iceni

[estewart]

Markinsa;

Couldn't pass up in responding as what you asked and quoted is of utmost importance.

First of all in answer to your question about saved.

1. Repent of your sins (which is the disobedience of God's Law-Word)

2. Believe that Jesus is the Christ and that He was born of a virgin and died and was resurrected as prophesied.

3. Be baptized.for the remission of sins and as a witness.

Although that is a 3 point summary there is a whole lot more to each of these that requires a fuller understanding of the whole Word of God to have a greater appreciation of it.

As for communion...it is taken in remembrance of God's work on Calvary, the love He bestowed on His creation and His people, taking on the sins of the world.

Again, this is just a summary of a much greater explanation and understanding of god's overall plans and purposes for His creation with the ultimate goal of the complete restoration of all things.

Trust this helps a little towards answering your questions.

ice

estewart;

ALTHOUGH I GET A SENSE OF BITTERNESS IN YOUR COMMENTS HERE I WILL NEVERTHELESS RESPOND TO THEM AS BEST I CAN WITHOUT WRITING AN ESSAY.

REF PAUL'S MINISTRY, YES, I HAVE STUDIED HIS WRITINGS AS WELL AS THE OTHER APOSTLES.

HE QUOTES THE O.T. QUITE EXTENSIVELY.

YOUR OPINION OF HIM HAS LITTLE OR NO SUBSTANCE.

CAN YOU BE SPECIFIC ABOUT YOUR ASSUMPTION THAT HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EARLY CHURCH BECOMING CORRUPT?

WHAT IS IT ABOUT LORD'S PRAYER THAT YOU DON'T LIKE?

YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG WITH YOUR ANALYSIS HERE.

PETER WAS NOT THE FOUNDATION OR THE ROCK.

JESUS WAS / IS.

SAUL, BEFORE HIS CONVERSION AND NAME CHANGE, WAS NOT AT THE ASCENSION BUT ONLY REPORTED AND REFERRED TO WHAT OTHERS SHARED WITH HIM.

AS FOR YOUR DISLIKE FOR PAUL I HAVE TO ASSUME THAT IT IS BASED ON YOUR OWN DISLIKE OF HIS AND/OR ANYONE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST AND HIS LAW-WORD.

PAUL PERSECUTED THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BEFORE HIS CONVERSION.

AS FOR ALL YOUR ABOVE ASSERTIONS, PLEASE GIVE ME CHAPTER AND VERSES.

DO NOT USE A BLANKET STATEMENT LIKE THIS UNTIL YOU HAVE TALKED TO ALL OF THEM

I AGREE THAT MANY CHURCHES DON'T HAVE THE UNDERSTANDING ...YET.

GOD HAS BLINDED THEM FOR A TIME TO ACCOMPLISH HIS PURPOSES.

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU ON SOME POINTS HERE.

JESUS SPOKE IN PARABLES TO MAKE CERTAIN POINTS REGARDING PROPHESIES AND THE KINGDOM AGE TO COME.

IT WAS NOT FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON TO UNDERSTAND AT THAT TIME AND EVEN HIS DISCIPLES DID NOT IMMEDIATELY UNDERSTAND THEM. THERE WERE ALSO OTHER TIMES WHEN HE SPOKE IN PARABLES THAT HE HAD TO EXPLAIN IT MORE DETAIL. MOST OF WHAT JESUS SPOKE HAD ITS FOUNDATIONS IN THE O.T. WHICH MOST CHRISTIANS HAVE VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF.

UNFORTUNATELY, SOME OF WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT TELEVANGELISTS IS TRUE.

CANNED SERMONS DO BRING IN THE BUCKS.

MUCH OF WHAT IS BEING PREACHED IS WITHOUT SCRIPTURAL FOUNDATION AND JUST MORE TRADITIONS OF MAN BASED ON A LOT OF PAGAN BELIEFS, SUCH AS HELL AND HEAVEN AS ONE EXAMPLE.

SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU ARE INTO THE PHILOSOPHY THAT MAN CAN BECOME LIKE GOD THROUGH THEIR OWN EFFORTS.

MOST DEFINITELY A DEAD END.

IT WAS TRIED BACK IN THE GARDEN AND YOU CAN SEE WHERE THAT GOT US.

estewart

BASED ON YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT, I HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT YOU ARE INTO YOURSELF AND THAT YOU DO NOT RECOGNIZE NOR ACCEPT THAT JESUS IS THE WORD AS DESCRIBED IN JOHN 1:1 AND AS THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS THAT HE IS THE ONLY GOD AND THAT HE DOES RULE IN THE AFFAIRS OF MEN AND THAT ALL WHO DO COME TO ACCEPT HIM FOR WHO HE IS AND WILL REPENT OF OUR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS AND FOLLOW HIS LAW-WORD AND THAT BEING SAVED IS A PROCESS THAT WILL EVENTUALLY BRING US TO THAT GREAT DAY WHEN CHRIST HIMSELF WILL COME TO RULE AND REIGN VIA HIS KINGDOM ON THIS EARTH. THAT DAY IS FAST APPROACHING AS MYSTERY BABYLON IS ABOUT TO FALL AND THE LIGHT OF GOD'S GLORY WILL SHINE THROUGHOUT THE EARTH FOR EVERMORE.

ice

A person named Jeshua lived but only two thousand years ago. Not so long ago in the history of mankind. A blink in time, really. And it is recorded he said a few things. Supposedly. But these were written down many many years later, so, who knows? But they are only of trifle brilliance in comparison with many Greek Scholars' teachings. But most Christians wouldn't be inclined to know about that, would they? Their minds are closed.

Jesus has had an enormous impact on the world. Admitedly. That is, considering the amount of violence which resulted from his existence. He's been like a torch bearer of Death. Face it! How much pain and death has he caused? It's mind boggling. To much to even begin to dare to think about. So Christians avoid that. And, of course, none can ever be expected to apologize to the rest of humanity. That won't ever happen. Talk about Hell on Earth! Over and over, again.

Two thousand years ago is but a tiny instance in the totality of the time man has been on Earth and I "believe" (you got to believe!) I can safely predict that Christianity will be completely forgotten in other thousand years or so. It is a dying religion.Now! Face it! You can see many old churches in most any city no longer in use. A Mega-Church closed in Texas last year. I wonder why? Maybe the idea that "YOU GOT TO BELIEVE!" just ain't believable enough anymore. That could be it. People are wising up. At least, a large number are.

Here's your DEMANDED verse and chapter. (You're welcome.)

A large crowd of more than 500 eyewitnesses saw the risen Jesus Christ at the same time. The Apostle Paul records this event in 1 Corinthians 15:6.

The most astounding event of all time and few Christians regard it. You didn't know it! The churches ignore it. (Can't blame them!) AND NO ONE ELSE bothered to even record it. It's like it never even happened. And likely didn't.

Oh, I VERY MUCH RESENT your totally stupid remark about me and God. What backwoods did you emerge out of?

"BASED ON (all) YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT(s), I HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT YOU ARE INTO YOURSELF AND THAT YOU". . . (and that means, YOU!) have had very little if any actual mystical or spiritual experience. You know nothing, but you are good at memorizing lists.

"Experience is the only true teacher." the GUIDE Book by E Stewart (not yet published.) Statute copyright protected.

Edited September 1, 2011 by estewart

[ATHIM]

So what must one do to be saved and inherit eternal life? Are you saying, I must participate in Communion to inherit eternal life?

Humility is the key to opening heavens doors. While some people see Holy Tradition as the tradition of men and thus flawed, it is in fact exactly the opposite. It is the living experience of Christ Jesus in the flesh and a first hand witness, account and translation into our lives of the truth as He bought it as God's Son, if one believes that this is who He really was and is.

To consider that receiving the Eucharist is the act that grants one eternal life is limited and can have the opposite effect as I mentioned earlier, it is a two edge sword. It’s like saying I know what God wants from reading the Bible, it is a part of His body but not the whole. The most important aspect here is that we must live and complete a life of faith to find salvation. Salvation is a four part process not a single act of acceptance.

1. I was saved when Jesus died on the cross.

2. I am saved, by my faith and belief in Him as Lord and Savior.

3. I am being saved as a continual renewal and refinement of my person in faith, a constant relationship with God that moulds me.

4. I will be saved when I complete my life in faith.

These are the fundamental building blocks of salvation but how this acceptance manifests itself into Sonship, has bone, meat and skin. As a disclaimer, “I can say where salvation is but I cannot say where it is not.” The people I have debated with, gang bangers etc may receive eternal life and I might not, the decision is ultimately God’s when you know the truth more is expected of you. The floors of hell are lined with the sculls of priests.

What we believe about the process of salvation is obviously intricately connected to our spiritual journey, our level of faith and our adherence to the principals of life requested from us by Jesus Himself as He desired it, through the personal teachings handed down to us by His disciples, the Apostles edified by the bible. It is faith that allows one to accept the deeper mysteries of God and the Comforter confirms this through our own revelation and through the teachings of the Church. Faith is not something you can receive after reading and following a punch list of things to do, faith is given by God to the elect which leads us to offer our own life to God even unto death as the Church has done for 2,000 years. The fact that we can negate the teachings of Christ’s Church and develop our own belief structure and rules for salvation is sadly a reflection of the continuance of our fallen human nature.

So unfortunately I cannot give you the key it is only Gods to give, but out of brotherhood for you I will do as you have requested.

1. Accept the four steps listed above as the true process of salvation.

2. Attend Catechism at the original Church, the Orthodox Christian Church. The Romans were excommunicated 1,000 years ago. If any doctrine is flawed in your church then it is not the Church. The Pope is not infallible in prayer, and the Virgin was born in sin as we were, these two alone helped Rome out the door. Another is “Once saved always saved” this is also a fallacy.

3. Find a spiritual Father who will lead you through every aspect of salvation as the Lord instructed us, he will witness before God and the angels as to your adherence to the faith he will also instruct you as to the finer points of faith and understanding which will satisfy your soul because it’s depth and truth is not mine or yours, it is God’s.

4. Live the faith. This means obedience to Christ and His teachings, included in this are repentance, studying the scriptures, prayer, fasting, Baptism, Chrismation, Holy Unction (Anointing with oil), Confession (Ouch) and when instructed by your spiritual father, receiving the Eucharist. But more transforming that all these is love. Love is molded by living faith unto perfection, “Theosis”, the process of becoming like God.

May God bless us all on this journey, for as we know perilous times lay ahead and without strong spiritual support the soul is fair game for the “Poniros” the vein one, O Satanas the one who comes, if plausible, to deceive even the elect.

Edited September 1, 2011 by ATHIM

[uncirculd]

It's a choice. One day you will no longer have that choice. Some folks just want to be accountable to themselves. And who criticizes them in order to make perfection? They do themselves, so how objective and effective is that? For those who would truly seek truth will find it only if they are willing to accept it. There have been many Scientist who set out to disprove God and they have yet to succeed. Because eventually Science points to God as the only explanation.

It's not about doom and gloom, it's real. And if you look around the world right now and accept it for what's really going on you will find your doom and gloom. That's a fact, you can patty cake it, but you cannot run from it once it hits home. It's just directly affected you. YET!!

[ATHIM]

A person named Jeshua lived but only two thousand years ago. Not so long ago in the history of mankind. A blink in time, really. And it is recorded he said a few things. Supposedly. But these were written down many many years later, so, who knows? But they are only of trifle brilliance in comparison with many Greek Scholars' teachings. But most Christians wouldn't be inclined to know about that, would they? Their minds are closed.

Jesus has had an enormous impact on the world. Admitedly. That is, considering the amount of violence which resulted from his existence. He's been like a torch bearer of Death. Face it! How much pain and death has he caused? It's mind boggling. To much to even begin to dare to think about. So Christians avoid that. And, of course, none can ever be expected to apologize to the rest of humanity. That won't ever happen. Talk about Hell on Earth! Over and over, again.

Two thousand years ago is but a tiny instance in the totality of the time man has been on Earth and I "believe" (you got to believe!) I can safely predict that Christianity will be completely forgotten in other thousand years or so. It is a dying religion.Now! Face it! You can see many old churches in most any city no longer in use. A Mega-Church closed in Texas last year. I wonder why? Maybe the idea that "YOU GOT TO BELIEVE!" just ain't believable enough anymore. That could be it. People are wising up. At least, a large number are.

(1) The letters to the Church and the Gospels were written after the resurrection not many years later. Greek being the trade language was taught to the Jews who also learnt other disciplines like Medicine. Astronomy etc from the Greeks so they were there at the time of Christ. This is why the Gospels were first translated into Greek so that it could be spread more easily. Your comment about Christ’s teachings trifling in brilliance when compared to the Greek scholars leaves me dumbfounded, are you out of your nut? I am Greek but nothing that Plato, Aristotle etc said, did etc even holds a dim light to what Jesus said, did and continues to do. I was closed minded like you but God changed that in a TWINKLING OF AN EYE, and no it was not a human revelation.

(2) Do not blame Jesus for violence on earth, His example was one of peace and surrender and obedience to the highest principals established on earth. It is our ego’s and greed that cause the flesh to rebel, using whatever means at our disposal, to plunge humanity into war for gain much in the same way that the Rothchild families and the like continue in the same fashion today. God does not cause violence, we do. But the day is coming when God will unleash Divine fury and no flesh or soul will stand. If you believe that death is the end of life then life has passing meaning.

(3) The Church has been here for 2,000 years and will be here till Christ returns, whenever that day may be. Yes churches are experiencing dwindling numbers because humanity has, as it did at the creation, rejected God’s way for their own sinful imaginations and the bill for their service will be delivered shortly. “YOU GOT TO BELIEVE, just aint enough” was your comment, if faith was just about blindly believing what someone told you, Christianity would have died 1900 years ago. There is a living God behind our faith that gives daily revelation as to His presence and omnipotence. The sad truth is that Satan is doing a better job than the Church is and thus the end must come, not by our hand but by Gods.

Edited September 1, 2011 by ATHIM

[Heavyduty053]

A person named Jeshua lived but only two thousand years ago. Not so long ago in the history of mankind. A blink in time, really. And it is recorded he said a few things. Supposedly. But these were written down many many years later, so, who knows? But they are only of trifle brilliance in comparison with many Greek Scholars' teachings. But most Christians wouldn't be inclined to know about that, would they? Their minds are closed.

Jesus has had an enormous impact on the world. Admitedly. That is, considering the amount of violence which resulted from his existence. He's been like a torch bearer of Death. Face it! How much pain and death has he caused? It's mind boggling. To much to even begin to dare to think about. So Christians avoid that. And, of course, none can ever be expected to apologize to the rest of humanity. That won't ever happen. Talk about Hell on Earth! Over and over, again.

Two thousand years ago is but a tiny instance in the totality of the time man has been on Earth and I "believe" (you got to believe!) I can safely predict that Christianity will be completely forgotten in other thousand years or so. It is a dying religion.Now! Face it! You can see many old churches in most any city no longer in use. A Mega-Church closed in Texas last year. I wonder why? Maybe the idea that "YOU GOT TO BELIEVE!" just ain't believable enough anymore. That could be it. People are wising up. At least, a large number are.

Here's your DEMANDED verse and chapter. (You're welcome.)

A large crowd of more than 500 eyewitnesses saw the risen Jesus Christ at the same time. The Apostle Paul records this event in 1 Corinthians 15:6.

The most astounding event of all time and few Christians regard it. You didn't know it! The churches ignore it. (Can't blame them!) AND NO ONE ELSE bothered to even record it. It's like it never even happened. And likely didn't.

Oh, I VERY MUCH RESENT your totally stupid remark about me and God. What backwoods did you emerge out of?

"BASED ON (all) YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT(s), I HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT YOU ARE INTO YOURSELF AND THAT YOU". . . (and that means, YOU!) have had very little if any actual mystical or spiritual experience. You know nothing, but you are good at memorizing lists.

"Experience is the only true teacher." the GUIDE Book by E Stewart (not yet published.) Statute copyright protected.

Jesus said in the last days there will be a great falling away from his church why because our world has progressed into a world of enticements that is garuanteed to capture your interest. As you state you don't think christianity will be around in another thousand years, my own belief is that the world will not stand another thousand years. Yes there are prophesises that still has not come to pass but time is presenting them pretty quickly. As for the people who falls away from God into their own lusts for whatever interest them they are at a loss. Everyone can look in a Bible and take one verse of scripture to justify something they want but if we don't have a love for God and take the Bible as the true word then we have taken a path away from him. If we lean on our own understanding we have missed the true comprehensive meaning of God. Churches are closing because people have lost touch with God. I don't believe jesus would ever favor a mega church because it tends to lose its real purpose. There are many churches, denominations, faiths, and religious sects but the true fact remains there is ONE GOD, ONE FAITH, ONE SAVIOUR AND ONE TRUE BIBLE all else is generic and man made doctrines. This discussion is a good learning curve and informative for me as well as others who care to know about what will happen after this life. I place my faith in him who substains life for us all. I once lived outside of christ when i was younger and God was a distant voice in my mind until i faced a real awakening when i was 30 years old thats when i cried out to jesus to help me and change my life, then and there is were i come face to face with a new life in Christ Jesus. Since that day he has guided my path helped me along the way gave me assurance that he was watching over me and most of all he gave me a new outlook on life which came with a new understanding. I can give Bible links quotes scriptures but i prefer to stick to its real meaning to share and lift up to those in need.

[iceni]

Jesus said in the last days there will be a great falling away from his church why because our world has progressed into a world of enticements that is garuanteed to capture your interest. As you state you don't think christianity will be around in another thousand years, my own belief is that the world will not stand another thousand years. Yes there are prophesises that still has not come to pass but time is presenting them pretty quickly. As for the people who falls away from God into their own lusts for whatever interest them they are at a loss. Everyone can look in a Bible and take one verse of scripture to justify something they want but if we don't have a love for God and take the Bible as the true word then we have taken a path away from him. If we lean on our own understanding we have missed the true comprehensive meaning of God. Churches are closing because people have lost touch with God. I don't believe jesus would ever favor a mega church because it tends to lose its real purpose. There are many churches, denominations, faiths, and religious sects but the true fact remains there is ONE GOD, ONE FAITH, ONE SAVIOUR AND ONE TRUE BIBLE all else is generic and man made doctrines. This discussion is a good learning curve and informative for me as well as others who care to know about what will happen after this life. I place my faith in him who substains life for us all. I once lived outside of christ when i was younger and God was a distant voice in my mind until i faced a real awakening when i was 30 years old thats when i cried out to jesus to help me and change my life, then and there is were i come face to face with a new life in Christ Jesus. Since that day he has guided my path helped me along the way gave me assurance that he was watching over me and most of all he gave me a new outlook on life which came with a new understanding. I can give Bible links quotes scriptures but i prefer to stick to its real meaning to share and lift up to those in need.

Heavyduty....

Just have to add a big AMEN to your testimony.

ice

[teddyruxbin]

false doctrine i don't think so that is what i was talking about truth is falling on deaf ears but you will see one day.

The Rapture isn't a false doctrine,but it sure seems the Pre Trib version of it is.

I grew up hearing this doctrine and accepted it as truth until i started searching the scriptures myself.

Every verse that is typically used to support the Pre Trib doctrine is twisted in some way to make it work..

[divemaster5734]

There seem to be a couple of issues that haven't been mentioned on this thread.

When Jesus walked, He never said, be a catholic, a Methodist, Lutheran, or any other denomination.

Those are religions made up by humans.

unfortunately, religion has been used as an excuse to inflict more death and destruction than anything else in history.

Please don't confuse that with the Spirituality Jesus offered.

Once Jesus started the age of the Pentecost, He gave us the Holy Spirit.

When a person accepts Jesus, they receive the Holy Spirit.

It is imposable to describe emotion effectively, it has to be experienced.

As a person grows in the Spirit, they learn to unlock the gifts that came with it.

Just as a baby grows into a teen then an adult, so also is the spiritual journey.

Churches have their purpose, they are the fishers of souls.

There will come a point in time when a Christian may be led away from the organized church.

This does not say anything bad about the church, nor anything unfit about the individual.

It is simply a calling once God says you are ready.

It is a personal search, our own "wandering through the desert", following the Spirit, and growing.

At times, we "walk in the spirit". This is not imagined, as events will take place that validate your position by others, usually someone unknown to you before the series of events.

Once you have been a participant in the will of God, there is no denying His existence.

Humility is not subservient, it is the key to unlocking the working of His Grace.

Those that have been privileged to be a servant experienced an epiphany, and were changed for life.

That does not make them "better", actually, we are awed by the complexity of His designs, the unlimited power at His fingertips, and the magnitude of His compassion for all humans.

Understand, only the one true God, the creator of the universe, can approach man with the humility, derived from truly unconditional love for us, that is offered by Jesus Christ alone.

I believe God wants us to know all truths.

More secrets are being revealed now than at any other time in history.

Didn't mean to go off subject.

I don't believe hell is eternal.

That's just what the control freaks want you to believe.

All will have to atone for their sins, but that will be for an "era", and then will join in Gods work.

I don't think there will be a single cataclysmic event and then believers will spend eternity fluttering around on a set of wings just singing songs and praising God.

Personally, I couldn't deal with that gig forever. He is not spending the time and energy to teach us if that is our only prospect.

our time on this earth, in this era, is to be taught to trust and follow God.

What He does with us after this time no one but Him knows.

I was not raised a Christian, and I did not follow Him for most of my life.

I was the exact opposite.

It was through perusing earthly delights that I encountered true evil.

It took some time to admit that since the evil I saw was real, there had to be something out there to balance it.

That's how I first came to pray.

After some years I learned to accept the Spirit, and learned to follow the direction it leads me, at least some of the times.

You didn't learn to walk without an occasional fall.

Then you learned to run.

Then ride a bike.

Then drive a car.

At least when I stumble now I know God will be there to teach, and the fall will not last.

That is empowering beyond words.

There is no greater insurance policy.

Edited September 1, 2011 by divemaster5734

[Heavyduty053]

There seem to be a couple of issues that haven't been mentioned on this thread.

When Jesus walked, He never said, be a catholic, a Methodist, Lutheran, or any other denomination.

Those are religions made up by humans.

unfortunately, religion has been used as an excuse to inflict more death and destruction than anything else in history.

Please don't confuse that with the Spirituality Jesus offered.

Once Jesus started the age of the Pentecost, He gave us the Holy Spirit.

When a person accepts Jesus, they receive the Holy Spirit.

It is imposable to describe emotion effectively, it has to be experienced.

As a person grows in the Spirit, they learn to unlock the gifts that came with it.

Just as a baby grows into a teen then an adult, so also is the spiritual journey.

Churches have their purpose, they are the fishers of souls.

There will come a point in time when a Christian may be led away from the organized church.

This does not say anything bad about the church, nor anything unfit about the individual.

It is simply a calling once God says you are ready.

It is a personal search, our own "wandering through the desert", following the Spirit, and growing.

At times, we "walk in the spirit". This is not imagined, as events will take place that validate your position by others, usually someone unknown to you before the series of events.

Once you have been a participant in the will of God, there is no denying His existence.

Humility is not subservient, it is the key to unlocking the working of His Grace.

Those that have been privileged to be a servant experienced an epiphany, and were changed for life.

That does not make them "better", actually, we are awed by the complexity of His designs, the unlimited power at His fingertips, and the magnitude of His compassion for all humans.

Understand, only the one true God, the creator of the universe, can approach man with the humility, derived from truly unconditional love for us, that is offered by Jesus Christ alone.

I believe God wants us to know all truths.

More secrets are being revealed now than at any other time in history.

Didn't mean to go off subject.

I don't believe hell is eternal.

That's just what the control freaks want you to believe.

All will have to atone for their sins, but that will be for an "era", and then will join in Gods work.

I don't think there will be a single cataclysmic event and then believers will spend eternity fluttering around on a set of wings just singing songs and praising God.

Personally, I couldn't deal with that gig forever. He is not spending the time and energy to teach us if that is our only prospect.

our time on this earth, in this era, is to be taught to trust and follow God.

What He does with us after this time no one but Him knows.

I was not raised a Christian, and I did not follow Him for most of my life.

I was the exact opposite.

It was through perusing earthly delights that I encountered true evil.

It took some time to admit that since the evil I saw was real, there had to be something out there to balance it.

That's how I first came to pray.

After some years I learned to accept the Spirit, and learned to follow the direction it leads me, at least some of the times.

You didn't learn to walk without an occasional fall.

Then you learned to run.

Then ride a bike.

Then drive a car.

At least when I stumble now I know God will be there to teach, and the fall will not last.

That is empowering beyond words.

There is no greater insurance policy.

Amen

[chocolate1]

Heavyduty,

I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm and desire to share the message of the Bible with others. It would be wonderful to have ten thousand proclaiming the gospel of Christ from the housetops.

With this present post, you have opened a controversial subject even among the saints. Therefore, you will have individuals who agree with your take on Scripture, and those who disagree with some of your statements. I am one of the latter...

Nelg

Nelg. Yu seem very studied and i really appreciate your contributions to these threads. Would you like to take a shot at an earlier post of mine? It was regarding exorcising demons spirits out of one's own soul. I am curious to know what you would say...

Here was that earlier post:

How does one exorcise those entities out of one's own body, when a competent exorciser is not available to do it for you?

I know the Lord told the Disciples, "this kind goeth not out except through fasting and prayer", in response to when the disciples could all of a sudden not seem to cast a demon out of a child (they needed to go back to the 'board' if you will, and by prayer and fasting, 'access' more vehement power) . But would that also work if i were to pray and fast for myself, meaning, at some point during my fasting and prayer (intense, im sure and not just some willy-nilly fasting and prayer afternoon) command them to leave me my Soul or would they leave on their own after, lets say, seven (7) days of the prayer and fasting?

Thanks

[estewart]

"Do not blame Jesus for violence on earth, His example was one of peace and surrender and obedience to the highest principals established on earth. It is our ego’s and greed that cause the flesh to rebel, using whatever means at our disposal, to plunge humanity into war for gain much in the same way that the Rothchild families and the like continue in the same fashion today. God does not cause violence, we do. But the day is coming when God will unleash Divine fury and no flesh or soul will stand. If you believe that death is the end of life then life has passing meaning."

Read more:

I have said it MANY TIMES, and I will say it again, I like teachings of Jesus. But IF you regard his teachings and DISREGARD all the rest of the crazy wild junk (for example, ALL of Revelations, and a whole lot of Paul's stuff which has a militant bent to it) Jesus's teachings are not about high level mystical or spiritual knowledge, but is just concerned with practical knowledge and advice. Good stuff, but nothing remarkable. But he did say there were things he could reveal but people weren't ready for it. But such material may come into the world yet. Never can tell.

Jesus, personally, I admit, has not been responsible for any the bloodshed that the RELIGION which Paul and others started has caused. The cause of the bloodshed down through time stems from a serious mental health disorder. Think about it. This should be obvious. There can occur various mental health disorders which can infect a large group, all at once. For example, there's the mob mentality. For a tighter example, the lynch mob mentality. This is a situation where a group of people have lost their ability to each think for themselves, and join together in a common mood, state of emotions, and mentality. It is a kind of a psychic situation where they all experience a common mind-link, and are thinking the same violent thoughts, together, all at once. They all feel the same intense emotions. And the fact is, it's like an infection. Truly, it is a type of disease.

There exists many instances where such a common psychic linkage can occur, and not all lead to violence. But most all are strong. Another simple example of a mind-linkage situation can be seen at the football stadium. There you can see thousands, tens of thousands, all pumped up and feeling the same mood, the same excitement. It's in the air, and it's self perpetrating. At the "other football" events, Soccer, the prevailing mood can often progress on into true violence. Then there is Ice Hockey, too. Same deal as Soccer. Again, this all concerns a mental health disorder comparable to an infection. And it is psychic. And that means, non-physical.

The ongoing religious wars of our world, both sides, are caused by a mental health disorder. An illness. A disease. A sickness of the mind and the soul and the spirit. And the illness resides in the churches. It it is the churches, I mean, the religions, that perpetrate the untoward condition. And it isn't that a religion can just support a mental health disorder, it can outright promote it. Religions all to often encourage it. Fuel it. Empower it. Religions of the world have been the cause of untold pain. Fact of reality. And history discloses this fact. But the members of the various religions of the world can't even begin to see or appreciate this reality because all the world's religions bend every effort to maintain their subjects BLIND to this fact. As a consequence, the members of the various religions will emphatically defend their religions unto death! They will kill and slay, kill and slay, in the name of who ever their chosen deity is. On and on, they do this. They will do this becausae the supported mental health disorder which infects them leads them to it. And they see nothing wrong with doing the diabolical deeds they do because they know everyone else in the group feels the same way they do. And the greater the number in support of vioence the more stronger it is felt to be RIGHT! Fact of Reality.

About the condemation of the ego that was made.

There exists a supposed understanding of what an EGO is in today's world. . . which is totally off base. Meaning, WRONG. This too stems from a common mental health disorder, too, but one much milder than is the religious one.

I challenge everyone to LOOK IT UP!

LEARN what an ego actually is.

In clinical psychologfy, an "ego" is the rational mind. It is the self perception. It is through the activity of the ego we become self aware. It is the logical mind. And a strong ego supports sanity. A weak ego leads to insanity, and delusions, and it promotes having beliefs overriding any possibility of acquiring valid knowledge. That is, KNOWING how a situation actually is won't exist for a person having a weak ego due to the ponderousness of whatever beliefs may be being cleave to.

WHEN anyone challenges anything I might say and is applting a belief to support their position, their argument will be seen to hold no weight. More, it will be empty of value or meaning. Pointless, of no worth. And in that case, what is their objective but an attempt to infect me with the same mental health disorder which is infecting them?

While they can can successfully infect others, I am immune. Over time, I've become that way. Fortunately for me. And I thank God for that! Amen, Brother!

[Nelg]

Nelg -

Humility is the key.

So as not to repost your post, I am just going to take the sections one at a time. They will correspond to your paragraphs. Yes, these books were chosen from many writings that were being circulated at the time. Some had been around for over 100 years. I am not trying to devalue or negate the work of the “Church Fathers” in their attempt to develop a canon of Scripture. They did Christianity a wonderful service. What I am saying is that there were book already recognized as Scripture before their work even began. Neither Jesus nor His apostles (including Paul) gave us the list and approved any of the twenty seven New Testament books. They neither used nor introduced the terms Old and New Testaments. Those unbiblical terms were first used by Tertullian (c 170 CE). In fact our Lord’s and the later apostolic teachings were first transmitted and taught orally. And the first Christians did not consider this oral transmission as inferior to the written letters and gospels. In Gal 4:20, Paul wrote that he wished to be with Galatians, so they could hear his tone. Because it was impossible for him to come to them a letter from him would be sufficient. The letter to the Galatians was about 60 AD.

In the same way, early Christian writers like Clement of Rome (c. 96 CE), Ignatius, bishop of Antioch (c. 110 CE), Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna (c 110-120 CE) considered Jesus word which they read in the gospels, as equal to those of Scriptures (Old Testament). In other words, from 96 CE their were written gospels being circulated. The word Gospel might be first used by Ignatius, bishop of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrnaeans (5:1 and 7:2). Papias, bishop of Hierapolis (c 125 CE) was known to know at least two Gospels (Matthew and Mark).

The first collection of New Testament books was made by Marcion (c 150 CE). His "canon" consisted of Gospel of Luke and 10 Paul’s epistles, which he referred as Gospel and Apostle. Yes, he was a heritic and mutilated many of them to suit his belief. However it does show that the New Testament books were being collected and recognized at this early date. Valentinus, a Gnostic, wrote The Gospel of Truth, which is not a rival gospel but a mediation on the true gospel of Christ. It alludes to Matthew and Luke (and possibly Acts), Gospel and first epistle of John, 10 of Paul’s epistles (minus the three Pastorals), Hebrews and Revelation. Both Marcion and Valentinus prompted the Church to define what belonged to written apostolic teaching, thus starting the collection of New Testament books. Close to the end of 2nd century, Tertullian of Carthage in his work mentioned the four Gospels, Acts, 13 of Paul’s epistles, 1 Peter, 1 John, Jude and Revelation. He mentioned Hebrews as the work of Barnabas and in his judgment was worthy to be included in the canon.

I believe this is enough to show that the New Testament was already in existence before the “Church Fathers” were forced to make a list of their own.

Sir, do you read the Scripture? Have you not read the terms that describe the child of God? I have no righteousness of my own, nor do I claim to be sinless (1John 1:7). Being a saint is because of the righteousness imputed to a person when they become children of God (1Cor 1:30). Paul says we are “sanctified in Christ Jesus” (1Cor 1:2), which is a holiness obtained by faith in Christ (Acts 26:18). In this sense, all believers are called “saints” irrespective of their spiritual attainments (Rom 1:7; ICor 1:2; Ep 1:1; Phil 1:1; Col 1:1). Saints are Christians who are alive and not dead. The term “saint” is used in reference to the child of God nearly 50 times in the NT with reference to believers. Consult your Greek concordance and go through the passages. My saying that I am a saint is simply a way of saying I am a Christian. Do I sin? Of course! Am I a sinner? Not in the sense of being separated from Christ. I am a saint ONLY because of the blood of Jesus Christ. Without Him I am nothing! If I seemed arrogant, then my apologies; but my boast is only in Christ. I completely agree with you and your references to Matthew 7:21 and James 2:24. In both those passages Jesus and the Holy Spirit through James is saying that unless you are obedient to God you faith is nothing. The person making the claim does not know the Lord.

Never have I said that I was not part of the Church, the body of Christ! Please show me where I said that? I did say that I was neither Protestant, Catholic, nor Jewish. And I am not. I am just a Christian and there is a big difference. The Lord added me to His church at the moment of salvation (Acts 2:38, 41). The indwelling of the Spirit came at that same time (Acts 2:38; 5:32; Ep 1:13-14; Rm 8:9; 1Cor 6:19-20). The church is a body of believers who have been redeemed from sin. Christ established it for the growth and encouragement of the saints. Certainly there are instructors of the Bible and elders of the body to assist the Christian in understanding the word and assisting them to live faithfully in Christ (Ep 4:11-16). But the basic written guide is the Bible and I, as all the saints, walk after the Spirit (Rm 8:1-8). All these are tools, as you say, in following Christ. I have been on of those tools as a teacher of the Bible for some 50 years. I am still teaching. I am sure that I need guidance in my life. That is why I rely upon the Spirit and His Word to give me that guidance. I try my best not to misinterpret the Scripture. It upsets me when I read others misinterpreting the Bible and taking passages out of context and making the Bible say what it does not say. Your next words I will not honor with a response. They are words generated by your anger and they are expressing an evil intent. Maybe you are not reading my post either. There is no way that I would say that I have “new truth”! …many such as yourself profess as the new truth. Do you think you might be confusing my post with someone else? Just a thought. By the way, the apostles were all dead by the time the Apostles Creed was written. If any creed disagrees with the Scripture, it would be false. When it agrees with the Bible then it is truth. The Bible exalts Jesus and the gospel. The cross was the mystery of God, but now it has been revealed through the teaching of Scripture. It does not need to be interpreted, just read and understood. Try it, it is not hard to understand. I have taken it up with God. I do everyday. However, I don’t need to convince Him about anything. Who am I to question God? His word revealed through the Bible is given to convict, convert, and correct us. You are obedient to God, my foot. You are a sinner and fall short of obedience, well short. My question is how do you know that I am disobedient? That is what you are implying. You do not know me except through what I have written. You are not the Judge are you? I posted that I do not want to discuss the Last Supper issue. I understand the Catholic position. I simply do not agree. We could really complicate the post with all the references from all three positions. At the end of the discussion we would be no further and everyone will remain in their belief. There is something that you have totally misunderstood about the communion. It has no bearing on our receiving salvation or damnation. Nor does it communicate or give any power to save souls. The body and blood of Jesus saves, and our partaking is a reminder of what He did at the cross. That’s the meaning of 1Corinthians 11:24-25, we partake of the Lord’s Supper “in remembrance of Me.” It is because we are saved that we take communion! Condemnation (1Cor 11:27-34) is when we do not discern the body (the church) by causing division. By the way, I partake of communion every first day of the week. Salvation is not a complicated issue. We make it complicated by inserting the doctrines made up by mankind. No, I don’t confess my sins to a person, but I confess them to Christ. “There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who game Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to be borne at the proper time.” (1Tim 2:5-6). I could and do confess my sins to other priest of the body. I want them to pray for me, as I would pray for them. (cf James 5:13-18) What does that mean cowboy? Don’t know how you knew that I wear boots, but thanks for the complement. The passage in John 20:23 is related to Jesus giving the authority to the church to forgive or not forgive a person. It was no longer the Jewish sacrifices and temple priest who made the determination that a person was forgiven or not, that now was in the hands of the apostles. One thing that I know, it does not give them any authority apart from Christ. The apostles gave the words of salvation to the world through their writings. Now, anyone reading the words of the apostles, which were given by the Spirit, can understand that they are sinners, they can come in faith to Christ, they can repent and be baptized and their sins will be forgiven. If they disobey, they will be lost. (Jno 20:30-31).

[divemaster5734]

How can you use "CE" for dates and still consider yourself Christian?

The whole excuse for "BCE" and "CE" crap was because it offended non-Christians.

Once "CE" was used it was easy to completely disregard the entire comment.

just saying...

[Nelg]

How can you use "CE" for dates and still consider yourself Christian?

The whole excuse for "BCE" and "CE" crap was because it offended non-Christians.

Once "CE" was used it was easy to completely disregard the entire comment.

just saying...

Picky picky. Use what you want. AD or BC. If you didn't read just because of that, then so be it. Sorry that it offended you, but it really is bashingly picky.

Here is an article that might help. Then again it might not.

Overview:

CE usually stands for "Common Era." AD is an abbreviation for "Anno Domini" in Latin or "the year of the Lord" in English. Both measure the number of years since the approximate birthday of Yeshua of Nazareth (a.k.a. Jesus Christ) a little over two millennia ago. CE and AD have the same value. That is 1 CE = 1 AD, and 2011 CE = 2011 AD. The word "common" simply means that it is based on the most frequently used calendar system: the Gregorian Calendar.

BCE stands for "Before the common era." BC means "Before Christ," or "Before the Messiah." Both measure the number of years before the approximate birthday of Yeshua/Jesus. Designation of a year in BC and BCE also have identical values.

Many people assume that Yeshua/Jesus was born at the end of 1 BCE. However, most theologians and religious historians estimate from evidence within the Bible that he was born in the fall of a year, sometime between 7 and 4 BCE. We have seen estimates as late as 4 CE and as early as the second century BCE.

Of course, one has the option of interpreting the letter "C" in CE and BCE as referring to "Christian" or "Christ's," in place of "common." "CE" then becomes "Christian Era." "BCE" becomes "Before the Christian Era." The Abbreviations Dictionary does exactly this. ₁ The "C" has also been interpreted as "Current."

[divemaster5734]

Picky picky. Use what you want. AD or BC. If you didn't read just because of that, then so be it. Sorry that it offended you, but it really is bashingly picky.

no intent to stir ill feelings.

I live in a very liberal part of the country.

I have no choice about that for the moment.

My beliefs are sometimes attacked daily.

I had a chance to leave the area a few years ago, but realized we are called to "walk among them". Anyone can preach to the choir.

It is from being persecuted for being Christian that has caused me to look at the little things people do and say and take clues from that as to what their own personal beliefs may be.

[Nelg]

no intent to stir ill feelings.

I live in a very liberal part of the country.

I have no choice about that for the moment.

My beliefs are sometimes attacked daily.

I had a chance to leave the area a few years ago, but realized we are called to "walk among them". Anyone can preach to the choir.

It is from being persecuted for being Christian that has caused me to look at the little things people do and say and take clues from that as to what their own personal beliefs may be.

No hard feelings here. I understand your feelings. It is becoming more and more difficult for the saints to "live godly in Christ Jesus" without being "pounced upon" by unbelievers. Sorry to say, it will get worse. Keep praying, studying, living, and sharing the gospel.

[estewart]

saint

1. any of certain persons of exceptional holiness of life, formally recognized as such by the Christian Church, especially by canonization.

2. a person of great holiness, virtue, or benevolence.

3. a founder, sponsor, or patron, as of a movement or organization.

4. (in certain religious groups) a designation applied by the members to themselves.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/saint

[Nelg]

Thank for your request Heavyduty. I plan to do a post on the subject. However, I'll be out for the next couple of days. Possibly until Monday evening. Have a great weekend. Same to the rest of the posters.

[ATHIM]

Nelg, God has blessed you and given you an excellent grasp on many aspects of the faith and as you said the banter, as good as it is will probably consolidate existing beliefs we already hold. Through written words it is easy to misunderstand the intention and tone in which they are written so I apologize if I seem tired, the fact is I am. Our Church, the Orthodox Church and myself personally, have continued dialogues with the Roman Catholics and the Protestants for many, many, many years and it seems, to no avail we are still disconnected to the satisfaction of Satan.

The Fathers as you mentioned were not forced to select the most edifying Gospels, it was there good pleasure to do so. If they could have seen what happened at and after the great schism there would be far fewer denominations than what there are now and specific clarity would have been given to certain passages in the bible to re-direct human traffic. Perhaps there in lies the reason that Jesus chose the Church as the vehicle and not the scriptures.

As with God, there cannot be several truth’s, there is one truth, you either have it or you do not but if you earnestly seek it, the Lord in His infinite grace will bring you to us. The Greeks have a beautiful two word saying "Ghnothis Afton", understand yourself and by so doing you will understand all people. Each walk in Christ is as unique as the people who are given them. For me, Jesus made it very simple; He built a Church as the new ark of salvation and gave His truth to the Apostles who keep it unchanged till today even until He returns. Jesus carried the traditions of the Hebrew people and worshipped in their way. The Church took the Synagogue and translated it into a new place of work and worship replacing the atonement sacrifice with a bloodless sacrifice which we call the Eucharist. As I said earlier, it is how and what we perceive is in the cup, that separates us and this is where God focuses, not in the things that unite us, He attacks the root of sin and flushes out its evil intention. But then, we do love a good smorgasbord don’t we? We pick and choose what to believe, but to me it was given by God as a complete course of medicine, not to be changed or modified, I either get better by following the instructions or I do not get better.

As far as reading the scriptures, I have summarized the bible, took me 6 straight months so my grasp is not too bad, although I do need to keep re-reading. If you have not done so, I would take the time to read the writings of St. John Chrysostom, perhaps the greatest Priest and preacher the Church has known since Christ. He wrote the Divine Liturgy which is, from my experience, the greatest work of worship on Earth.

The title of saint, while it is yours to use as you will, I will reserve calling you, your race is not completed and you certainly stand outside of several of the teachings given to us by Christ which qualifies one a saint, including your take on confession and the Eucharist and it is not me that accuses you, but Christ and His Apostles. Diligently go to Him in prayer on this, and see what happens I cannot convince or guide you but He can.

God wants us to be humble before His priests even though they too are sinners, our confession is made to them and they bear witness of our confession before the throne of God. This is how Jesus instructed them, giving them the authority to forgive sins in His name. It is an intimate, relationship with the Church that saves us making us one body with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is truly in me and I am truly in Him not just figuratively, but physically and spiritually and this transcends every aspect of my Christian walk and the walk of the Saints and Martyrs that go before me. Why is it so hard for us to accept God’s way? it has been that way though from the first abstinence prescribed by God, we cannot do what God commands, that’s how I know that you are disobedient, because all humanity is disobedient.

The Orthodox Church does not really need to be defended by me; it will continue to preach the true Gospel as it did from the beginning in its entirety, unchanged, undeniably and ceaselessly, it is what our Lord instructed us to do. I don’t know your heritage and though we share many aspects of faith, unless you have been through Martyrdom and wars fought to preserve the faith, it is difficult to understand how deep this runs. In my heart it pains me to know that I have wasted much time on this dialogue while my own people fall and fail. And in my opinion, there is no such thing as a person who is just a Christian someone has instructed you and you are tarred with their brush and if your teacher is just the scriptures then I pray Gods mercy upon you. The RV is a microcosm of His second coming, so much disinformation, men will seek Him but He will be hidden in plain sight.

Out.