Free Will or Predestination?

[George Hayduke]

Thanks Nelg and Barb for your reasoned contributions to this thread.  As I said at the beginning, the two theologies are much like train tracks heading to the horizon, the rails don’t join here but appear to join somewhere in the distance. Guess we’ll just have to wait and see which one is correct but then again, it may not be that important of an issue at that time.  Even now the differences (did I choose God or did God choose me?) should not divide us as long as we do believe and receive the Gospel.

 

I have shared many examples of why I believe in Free Will but the main foundation from which I reason against the premise of total depravity is from Genesis 3:16-19&22 and Romans 10:17.    

16. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.

17. And unto Adam he said, Because you have listened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life;

18. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field;

19. In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.

 

Verses 16-19 illustrate Adam and Eve have already disobeyed God and presently God is speaking to them.  They knew they had sinned, they knew they were naked and they were ashamed.  They took proactive steps to hide what they had done by dressing themselves with leaves.  This attempt to hide the obvious change of their nature illustrates moral reasoning.

 

22. And the LORD God said, “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil…”

 

Verse 22 can’t be any clearer; the Lord God said Adam in his fallen state now possesses a full understanding of good and evil. He didn't say general good or human good or angelic good, he simply proclaimed good and evil.  Who was the audience God spoke to when he said, “… man has become as one of us, to know good and evil”?  Most bible scholars agree it was Christ and the Holy Spirit.  That knowledge of good and evil possessed by fallen Adam is the same knowledge God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit possess.

 

I am not aware of any follow on verses that claim God retracted his statement nullifying His original proclamation that “… man has become as one of us, to know good and evil”.  I believe the bible illustrates that man still knows good from evil and, as such, can hear and understand the Word of God: So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17.

 

And so why you may be right Nelg, regarding faith not being entirely intellectual, I believe that truth to be one side of a God mystery; a God Faith coin standing on its edge as it were.  One side of the coin requires intellect to hear the Gospel and understand the Gospel to be able to believe the Gospel.  Fallen, depraved man is able to do this because God proclaimed he possesses full knowledge of good from evil.  Subsequently, man’s choice to believe (pisteuo) transforms into Salvational Faith on the other side of the coin and the Holy Spirit then indwells the believer with the full value and economy of the Gospel now realized.  It may not be the best analogy but it is one I understand.

 

And so… we could go back and forth with this issue until the train tracks join somewhere in the future without gaining much ground other than to illustrate to others the differing views.  So with that in mind, I thank both you and Barb for your insightful posts and look forward to further Biblical discussions.

 

Gods Blessings upon both of you and your families.

 

GH  

 

 

[Nelg]

Sorry I didn't participate as much as I would have liked.  Things just started to "pile up" and all I could do was read the posts and then leave.  I enjoyed this conversation and the both of you, as well as the others who came in with comments.  I believe we would enjoy each others company in a discussion group.  There are some things of doctrine which could be roadblocks to fellowship, but all of us, I believe or on the "fellowship" side of those issues.  (aka. the Deity of Jesus, the bodily resurrection, and faith and not works to obtain salvation, etc. ) 

Anyway, we need to start a fresh topic and see how it develops. Just a thought.  

 

Really how the dinar RVs!   

[waterman13]

Here is a good look at Free Will vs. Predestination by Chuck Missler

make your own decision what you believe, I believe you are either of God (Christ / The New Man) or you are of the fallen Adam deceived by Satan (The old man). So you are either doing as God wills, or as Satan wills. Does God not know who are His?

Wm13

[Heavyduty053]

I don't know why you guys go through long paragraphs of explenations on this.....It is simple, You have the power by Free will of choice while you are alive to determine what you will face when you draw your last breath, after that God will determine it by how you have lived your life......You can't get any more simple than that.

[George Hayduke]

Heavyduty053 - it's an exercise by parties of differing views that is spiritually beneficial: "As iron sharpens iron, so a friend sharpens a friend." Proverbs 27:17

 

You know what you believe but what if I was a new believer and asked you how it is you came to believe what you believe?

 

GH

[Nelg]

I don't know why you guys go through long paragraphs of explenations on this.....It is simple, You have the power by Free will of choice while you are alive to determine what you will face when you draw your last breath, after that God will determine it by how you have lived your life......You can't get any more simple than that.

Good evening guys.  I was hoping someone would start writing something. Ha.  I get tired of the same ol' same ol' dinar stuff.  

 

Hey Heavyduty, let's see how simple it is.  Are we saved by works or by Jesus' work at the cross?  If by Jesus' work at the cross, then it is not by our "good works."  If it is not by our good work, then after we die, our judgment is sealed based on our trust and faith in Jesus.  If we are saved based on His work and blood, then we will not be judged at all, but will only be rewarded for our faith and not be what we did.  Certainly, while on earth, we had free will to choose and we made the choice of Christ.  Each decision that we make by free will should be a choice based on our faith.  If, however, a person make a bad decision and before that individual had time to repent, will that person be lost based upon their works? or based upon their faith? Or based upon their predetermined destination?

[TRC]

Hello great topic First predestination has nothing to do with salvation Our Lord has a path and a purpose that has been set forth since before We existed. Our purpose on this earth as Christians is to seek to know our Lord in a greater way learn to hear clearly from the

Holy Spirit and apply His instruction There is a predestined path and a sole purpose for each one of us weather it be the job, ministry,or what ever he has called us to do. As far as free will it can be discussed for hours and I can't type fast enough for that Always remember

You are bought with a price and you are not your own this goes for the entire earthly population. Thanks Tony

[Nelg]

Hello great topic First predestination has nothing to do with salvation Our Lord has a path and a purpose that has been set forth since before We existed. Our purpose on this earth as Christians is to seek to know our Lord in a greater way learn to hear clearly from the

Holy Spirit and apply His instruction There is a predestined path and a sole purpose for each one of us weather it be the job, ministry,or what ever he has called us to do. As far as free will it can be discussed for hours and I can't type fast enough for that Always remember

You are bought with a price and you are not your own this goes for the entire earthly population. Thanks Tony

Interesting Tony.  Can you give us some Scripture that verifies your position?  

[Heavyduty053]

Heavyduty053 - it's an exercise by parties of differing views that is spiritually beneficial: "As iron sharpens iron, so a friend sharpens a friend." Proverbs 27:17

 

You know what you believe but what if I was a new believer and asked you how it is you came to believe what you believe?

 

GH

George i see what you are doing now, hey carry on, good for you

Believe on the lord thy God and thou shall be saved.......No one can come to the father except by Jesus.......Faith hope and love carries us into our destination or heaven or on the other hand.....hate deciet and disbelief carries us into hades.....then the answer to your question is in my opinion this: If Jesus had not died on the cross we would never had free will of choice. He gave us that and grace with forgiveness.....Predestination is what you make it while alive. You have all the tools to go either way.

[TRC]

Hello Nelg in Romans 8-28 it says all things work together for good to them that love God and are called according to purpose then go on to read 8- 29/30 about The Lord fore knowing us and predestinating us now the purpose is His plan for our lives first to be more like Him and second to carry out His will for our lives something that has to be sought after and no man can find it for us only a deep commitment to know our Lord and speaking to Him everyday about everything in ones life.

Answer this question which one of your children when they were growing up did You not give instruction to or talk to everyday of their lives when they were growing up. Thanks Tony

[Nelg]

Hello Nelg in Romans 8-28 it says all things work together for good to them that love God and are called according to purpose then go on to read 8- 29/30 about The Lord fore knowing us and predestinating us now the purpose is His plan for our lives first to be more like Him and second to carry out His will for our lives something that has to be sought after and no man can find it for us only a deep commitment to know our Lord and speaking to Him everyday about everything in ones life.

Answer this question which one of your children when they were growing up did You not give instruction to or talk to everyday of their lives when they were growing up. Thanks Tony

Greeting TRC.  This is just a quick note for Wednesday.  I have just returned from one class and will be going to another at 4 pm for which I need to prepare.  

I didn't quote the post, but in your post earlier you stated that predestination was not a matter of salvation.  I would need to disagree.  The entire salvation received from God is the eternal plan conceived "before the foundation of the world," or in eternity before humanity was created.  In essence, God was "in Christ" reconciling the world to Himself.  Maybe I can outline what I mean. (I would graph it, but I find it difficult to do on DinarVets.

1.  God knew that mankind would need a Savior.

2.  God planned the salvation of mankind through the redemption that would be found in Jesus Christ. Two basic elements were to be accomplished:

a.  Salvation through the Son, Jesus Christ. Or freedom from sin and death.

b.  Creating those "in Christ" into the image of Jesus - Rom 8.28

3.  God initiated that plan throughout the the OT period. He made sure that the "seed" promise to  Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was completely fulfilled with Jesus death, burial and resurrection.

4.  The individual's choice of Christ, and their continued faithfulness is a matter of their "free will."

5.  The final deliverance will be to deliver up the kingdom or church to God in the final resurrection.

 

The predetermination was the plan of God.  The "choice" of God was that a person be saved and conformed based on that person's acceptance of Jesus.  But God left the choosing of Christ and redemption totally to the individual.  Those individual choices as to job, spouse, and a thousand other choices were not "predetermined" and written in a master plan and we have no choice but to complete it as God has already written it down.  It is this latter matter that causes the problem.  Such a view would indicate that God was the creator of all our choices whether good or bad.  If I sin, it was because God willed it so.  Instead, my choices are based upon my choosing Christ and walking after the direction of the Spirit of God.  My sins are the result of my choices as well; it failed to accept the and follow the will of God for my life.  

 

 What say you?

[TRC]

Hello Nelg you are correct in everything you say the plan of our Lord is a predestined plan.

But there is a predestined plan for the individual a path that is set for child of God to carry out His will on the earth.

This is what is referred to as your calling

Now to look at it this way if a person becomes a child of God and goes no further other than salvation they deprive their life

of ever knowing what plan God has for them they stroll through life never growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ

And also all of our thoughts are not totally our own the Lord is speaking to us daily. As is the enemy in temptations that is what having a knowledge of the scriptures is for to test those thoughts against the scriptures is this thought from God or something that looks like it from God. Here is one example dinar do you think we would have ever had the chance to discuss the Lord and we just wound up here by accident or happenstance I think not lol. Tony

[Nelg]

Hello Nelg you are correct in everything you say the plan of our Lord is a predestined plan.

But there is a predestined plan for the individual a path that is set for child of God to carry out His will on the earth.

This is what is referred to as your calling

Now to look at it this way if a person becomes a child of God and goes no further other than salvation they deprive their life

of ever knowing what plan God has for them they stroll through life never growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ

And also all of our thoughts are not totally our own the Lord is speaking to us daily. As is the enemy in temptations that is what having a knowledge of the scriptures is for to test those thoughts against the scriptures is this thought from God or something that looks like it from God. Here is one example dinar do you think we would have ever had the chance to discuss the Lord and we just wound up here by accident or happenstance I think not lol. Tony

Good morning Tony.  Then I have a few questions concerning the individuals predestined plan declared by God.

1.  Is this plan unalterable?  God's predestined plan for the salvation of individuals through Christ certainly is, but an individual's response to God's plan does change.  One can either obey God or reject salvation all together.  If so, then the individual predestinated plan is not so predestinated.  

2.  Does God's predestination remove free will?  If so, there would not be a choosing of whether one "stroll through life never growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ" for that would be predetermined.  Nor would we have a choice of "listening" to the voice  of God or responding to His "call" for that would be predetermined.  

3.  Would evil decisions as well as the good decisions be predetermined?  If so would that make God the cause of all sin, rejection, and evil in all creation?  If all actions are already predetermined and their is no choice, why should be concerned with good and evil?  Would rape or incest be evil if one is only doing what God has already predetermined that that person should do?  Would not that be obedience instead of disobedience?  If it is predetermined that one commit evil, how could it be sin?  

 

It is my understanding that if a person is totally committed to Christ as Lord and walks after the Spirit of Christ, then whatever that person does or acts will be in the realm of God's will or His predetermination that we be shaped into the image of Christ.  Sin is the rejection of what God wants us to be.  The choice is ours to make.  God does not "plan" for us to be at any particular place or marry a particular person or work in a specific job.  Those are choices we make.  To live an be like Christ in those situations is to be in the will of God.  Therefore a person can marry any the spouse of their choice.  To live with that spouse in harmony with the will of God is what God wants and desires.  The choice is ours and it is not predetermined. 

 

I would like to hear what you and others think.

[George Hayduke]

Nelg - you've summarized the Free Will position quite nicely.

 

Perhaps I should have titled this thread 'Free Will or No Will' for that is the crux of the issue isn't it?

 

Tony - "Now to look at it this way if a person becomes a child of God and goes no further other than salvation they deprive their life

of ever knowing what plan God has for them they stroll through life never growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ."

 

I'm thinking your concept only works if man has the ability to choose not to make a choice which, is an impossibility.  Once a person has 'believed and received' the Gospel and Christ's atonement, they cannot 'un-believe or un-receive'.  Therefore, regardless of the pace by which a person grows in the knowledge of Christ, "...He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6. 

 

"Here is one example dinar do you think we would have ever had the chance to discuss the Lord and we just wound up here by accident or happenstance I think not lol."

 

I agree completely; no accident of happenstance here on DV or anywhere else.  We are here discussing the Lord because at some point in the past we chose to move in this direction.  We could not have known we would arrive at DV because at one point in time DV didn't even exist.  What did exist was the 'desires' of our hearts to 'Take delight in the Lord'.  That 'desire' and 'delight' influences our ability to chose the options before us.  As believers we stand in this physical plain making choices with spiritual ramifications as God works HIs sanctification within us based upon our choices.  Granted, at first blush those choices appear to be limited but having chosen, a millennia of options continue to be presented to us until that 'good work in us be perfected.'

 

Delightful desires in the Lord or depravity and death; the litmus test for all choices.

 

GH

Edited October 24, 2013 by George Hayduke

[Nelg]

Man, am I glad these are not papers to be graded!  My grammar and punctuation are really atrocious.  I need to do at least a full read of what I have written before posting.  Ha.  

[learning all i can]

The word of God presents God as the controller and disposer of all creatures (Dan. 4:35;  Isa. 45:7;  Lam. 3:38)

 

He is the Almighty who works all things after the counsel of His will. (Eph. 1:11;  Isa. 14:27;  Rev. 19:6)

  

and the heavenly Potter who shapes men according to His own good pleasure.  (Rom. 9:18-22)

 

He is the decider and determiner of every man's destiny, and the controller of every detail in each individual's life (Prov. 16:9;  19:21;  21:1

Ex. 3:21-22;  14:8;  Ezra 1:1;  Dan.1:9:   James 4:15

[George Hayduke]

Man, am I glad these are not papers to be graded!  My grammar and punctuation are really atrocious.  I need to do at least a full read of what I have written before posting.  Ha.  

 

Oh, don't go there brother - this is an open classroom and book course - besides, English is not the Holy Spirits native tongue...   

[George Hayduke]

The word of God presents God as the controller and disposer of all creatures (Dan. 4:35;  Isa. 45:7;  Lam. 3:38)

 

He is the Almighty who works all things after the counsel of His will. (Eph. 1:11;  Isa. 14:27;  Rev. 19:6)

  

and the heavenly Potter who shapes men according to His own good pleasure.  (Rom. 9:18-22)

 

He is the decider and determiner of every man's destiny, and the controller of every detail in each individual's life (Prov. 16:9;  19:21;  21:1

Ex. 3:21-22;  14:8;  Ezra 1:1;  Dan.1:9:   James 4:15

 

Good afternoon Barb & all,

 

All of the scriptures you posted are exactly true and, there are two ways with which one may interpret the full meaning of each depending on one’s world view; Reformed or Free Will.

 

The word of God presents God as the controller and disposer of all creatures (Dan. 4:35;  Isa. 45:7;  Lam. 3:38)

Reformed: God controls all aspects and function of his creatures: [A farmer slaughters a cow to feed his family because he is programed to do so.]

Free Will: God controls all aspects and functions of his creatures while providing man with finite choices: [A farmer slaughters a cow to feed his family because he has been given dominion over all creation but, he doesn’t have to.  He can choose to slaughter a chicken, a pig or even let his family starve.]

 

He is the Almighty who works all things after the counsel of His will. (Eph. 1:11;  Isa. 14:27;  Rev. 19:6)

Reformed: God is true and just to His own person and nature but can do whatever He wills.

Free Will: God is true and just to His own person and nature and can only will what is true and just.

 

and the heavenly Potter who shapes men according to His own good pleasure.  (Rom. 9:18-22)

Reformed: God shapes evil men and righteous men according to His own pleasure.

Free Will: God created man in a finite world with finite choices.  Those offered choices is the process God shapes men according to His own good pleasure without muting or eliminating the integrity of the process He initiated by which man could freely love (or not) his creator.

 

He is the decider and determiner of every man's destiny, and the controller of every detail in each individual's life (Prov. 16:9;  19:21;  21:1 Ex. 3:21-22;  14:8;  Ezra 1:1;  Dan.1:9:   James 4:15

Reformed: God created Adam to sin and fall from grace.  God also created Judas to betray Christ.

Free Will: God created Adam to establish a Holy Loving relationship that would last in innocence as long as Adam chose to agree with God’s parameter of the relationship.

 

Summary:

It is difficult for many to understand the full ramification of either the Reformed view or Free Will view.  While both adherents will agree God is in control, the degree with which God controls his creation is the rub. It is also difficult for many to understand that Adam didn’t have to sin.  Somehow that thought causes a shudder throughout the Reformed Sovereignty crowd and yet, I find that God’s Sovereignty is more fully realized when I consider that God created an environment for man to enjoy His fellowship and give glory unto Him in person and without sin.  Even though Adam ultimately chose to sin, his falling from grace does not negate that God foreknew the possibilities of an obedient mankind fellowshipping with Him in paradise.  Yes, God foreknew Judas would betray Christ but He also foreknew the possibility that Judas could walk with Him in the garden if Adam chose not to sin.  No sin – no need for the atonement.  No need for the atonement – no need for Judas betrayal.

 

Finally, Free Will does not mean man has unlimited choices.  God has preordained, pre-determined choices before us that reflect His Sovereignty and control.  Even so, those choices are defined and limited to provide a way for man to accept or reject God.

 

Ultimately, if Free Will as commonly understood is untrue, the alternative then, is that God is no longer true and just to his own nature for He cannot be the author of evil no more than He can create another uncreated being…

 

GH

[Peace]

If its Free Will then why are we forced into it?

And as we're playing out the various roles in our lives (with ample opportunity to sin) then why did he cast sinners back into a place of sin that he created. What was the point?

I don't know.

[Nelg]

Hi Peace.  I'm a little dense sometime.  Could you explain your question?  

 

You are not forced into any particular situation; at least under the understanding of our having "free will." As we live our lives we make thousands of choices.  Without choice we would all be compressed into the channel of total control without our consent.  With a choice (free will) Christians willingly submit to being controlled by the directions of God's written instructions for us and the Spirit of God within us.  Or we can make a choice not to obey God and suffer the consequences.  As chilling as disobedience and living a faithless life is, it is a reality.  

 

With each opportunity to sin comes the way of escape.  The only way to escape the power of sin is by dying to self and trusting in Jesus.  There is no escaping the "law of sin and death" without the grace of Christ crucified.  Being in Christ removes us from the law of sin and gives us life and not death.  But the choosing of Christ is a decision each individual must make.  Read Romans 5 and 6 carefully.  

[George Hayduke]

If its Free Will then why are we forced into it?

And as we're playing out the various roles in our lives (with ample opportunity to sin) then why did he cast sinners back into a place of sin that he created. What was the point?

I don't know.

If its Free Will then why are we forced into it?

We are not forced, we are offered. 

Puppets and robots are forced, free creatures are offered.

 

You are free to believe whatever you want but believing whatever you want doesn't make it so.  The object of your belief has to actually exist and be true.

 

There is a Creator.  He created mankind from the dust of the earth and provided life and love with the option that man could reject it if he so chose.   While man can protest after the fact that he was created, he can’t protest about being created prior to being created.  Thus the Creator offered life and love that man could freely reject (free will).

 

And as we're playing out the various roles in our lives (with ample opportunity to sin) then why did he cast sinners back into a place of sin that he created.

I take it you are referring to Hell?  Hell is not a place of sin; it is a place prepared by God for Satan and fallen angels.  Presently there are no sinners in Hell and won’t be until after Judgment day. Sin is not generated from Hell; sin comes from man’s heart.  The first man, Adam, chose to reject God’s offer thus sinning and plunging all of mankind into depravity and a fallen world.  By Adam’s sin, all of mankind has become sinful making each and every one a sinner.  Here is the Good News!  All sinners have the option to choose where they will spend eternity.

 

What was the point?

Part of the point is that God created man with the option to reject Him; however, because man is a created being man is unable to create an eternal alternative reality where he can reside without the presence of God.  God allows man to reject Him but dictates where man will spend the rest of eternity rejecting Him.

 

I don't know.

A God of love cannot force His creation to love Him.  A God of love allows His creation to choose to be separated from Him.  Hell allows that separation.