God Bless the U.S.A.

[desimo]

Political correctness running amuck. Mass. elementary school going nutzo because a 4th grade school that they are NOT to sing God Bless the USA. They could change words but NOT God. St. Patrick's Day was changed to 'green' day. St. Valentine's Day was 'freind' day. GIVE ME A BREAK!!! The government is gone bazerk. I know that commonsense has a tombstone. But I did not think that brains also have died. I'm offended seems to be the greatest saying and now people are anticipating others being offended. What happened to simply "GET OVER IT'? Well I'm offended with their being offended. Where do MY rights come into play? God has been a part of this country from the beginning. If you doubt that read HISTORY. I get offended with everyone being offended. If you are offended with my being offended with your being offended, don't let you door hit you in the butt as you leave.

[Nadita]

Political correctness running amuck. Mass. elementary school going nutzo because a 4th grade school that they are NOT to sing God Bless the USA. They could change words but NOT God. St. Patrick's Day was changed to 'green' day. St. Valentine's Day was 'freind' day. GIVE ME A BREAK!!! The government is gone bazerk. I know that commonsense has a tombstone. But I did not think that brains also have died. I'm offended seems to be the greatest saying and now people are anticipating others being offended. What happened to simply "GET OVER IT'? Well I'm offended with their being offended. Where do MY rights come into play? God has been a part of this country from the beginning. If you doubt that read HISTORY. I get offended with everyone being offended. If you are offended with my being offended with your being offended, don't let you door hit you in the butt as you leave.

Amen... GOD BLESS THE USA AND MAY HE BRING ORDER TO THIS COUNTRY

[babycakes61]

Amen to that brother!

[pattyangel]

Yes double Amen, Amen.

We need to VOTE and start making Godly changes for the good of his people.

[Lutie]

I'll amen that too. I hope all parents will fight this kind of craziness when it involves their kids.

[Xtaxguy]

Political Correctness nonsense like that gives me disabling chronic nausea, an illness with a DRG (that's Medicarespeak for an official illness).

The ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) requires basically everybody to do every reasonable thing, no matter what the cost, to prevent or mitigate the disabilities of others. And if you do not meet their expectations you can be sued, and in California if you are sued, you damn well better settle up quick or you'll be ruined. There are professionally disabled folks who have sued thousands of small businesses invariably "settling" for $1 - 2,500.

Ergo all you oh so correct political a$$holes, you have a choice: shut your pie hole or send me money!

Now that's a plan the worst lawyer in the country can contemplate in his big ole rent free house.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Xtaxguy

[Saint]

Definitely a big AMEN to that. Folks this is only the beginning of the end if we as Americans do not get out and vote these idiotic so called law makers out of office. Stop being led like sheep to the slaughter. Stand your ground and VOTE. It's the only way. :angry:

[NEODinar]

The reason, it's an issue is because more and more people are starting to become non believers so there is a much stronger secular voice in this country. You have to understand that to non believers saying "god bless the USA" is no different than saying "zeus bless the USA". We don't want to have gods or any other myths intertwined with our government, at state or federal levels. Religion needs to stay out of that business. Thats why we have a constitution. The constitution wasn't drafted to protect christians, it was designed to protect everyone. You wouldn't like it if atheists were trying to put "one nation under atheism", or "atheist bless the USA" So we shouldn't have to hear "god bless the USA" either. One's private beliefs are their own private beliefs. Yes the belief in gods has been a strong part of this country, but ironically the key figures who drafted the constitution were deists who luckily had the foresight to protect us from religious tyranny. Thats why non believers have the RIGHT to be heard. So you might want to go back and read up on actual history or read the constitution that also ironically never mentions god. As far as your rights are concerned, just where have your rights gone? How is keeping god out of public school and government "infringing on your religious rights? I don't understand, is it really that important to you that your kids say "god bless the usa" in public schools where many children are different?? Why is that such a big deal? You might want to start warming up to the idea that America is becoming less christian everyday because If this bothers you that badly, you are going to hate the future of America if you are a fundamentalist christian.

[dhr05b]

NEO, I adressed this same thing (about the founders being deists) a few weeks ago. Do I really need to prove you and the other atheists wrong again? Last time it ended with one of your kind trying to tell me that Abraham Lincoln is considered one of the founders...

Just to kick-start our inevitable conversation, the Declaration of Independence mentions a 'Higher Intelligence' no less than 4 times.

Edited April 6, 2012 by dhr05b

[dhr05b]

NEO, I adressed this same thing (about the founders being deists) a few weeks ago. Do I really need to prove you and the other atheists wrong again? Last time it ended with one of your kind trying to tell me that Abraham Lincoln is considered one of the founders...

Just to kick-start our inevitable conversation, the Declaration of Independence refers to a 'Higher Intelligence' no less than 4 times.

Edited April 6, 2012 by dhr05b

[NEODinar]

NEO, I adressed this same thing (about the founders being deists) a few weeks ago. Do I really need to prove you and the other atheists wrong again? Last time it ended with one of your kind trying to tell me that Abraham Lincoln is considered one of the founders...

Just to kick-start our inevitable conversation, the Declaration of Independence mentions a 'Higher Intelligence' no less than 4 times.

The KEY founders were deists or at the very least held deistic beliefs. They most certainly weren't practicing christians as you are trying to paint them. And yes, I understand that there were many other's involved in the framing of our nation, but it's general consensus that that the men I mention below were the most influential and held the greatest impact on the process. Agreed, the declaration of independence does mention "god", but using the declaration of independence as support for your argument is flawed for a couple of reasons and I'm paraphrasing here but 1. the declaration is not a legal document for this nation, it has no authority over our laws, our lawmakers or ourselves. It can not be cited as precedent or as being binding in court. The purpose of the document was to make a moral case for dissolving the legal ties between us and the British. Once that was achieved the role of the declaration was finished. 2. Religion itself is never mentioned in the document making it difficult to argue that any specific religious principals should guide the government. 3. The declaration refers to "natures god", "creator" and "divine providence", these are all terms used in the sort of deism which was common among many of those responsible for the American Revolution as well as the philosophers from which they relied for support. And lets not forget that the constitution, the ACTUAL law of the land makes absolutely zero mention of god or gods. So you can attempt to "prove my kind wrong again" but If you actually believe what you are premising then I'm not sure you have a valid argument o begin with.

In their words.....They really sound like evangelicals don't they?

Jefferson -

"The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs." -- Letter to James Smith, December 8, 1822

Franklin -

"Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

Madison -

"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others."

Adams -

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

.

Paine -

"The New Testament, they tell us, is founded upon the prophecies of the Old; if so, it must follow the fate of its foundation.''

Washington -

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."

[dhr05b]

Firstly, you made this statement, "ironically the key figures who drafted the constitution were deists..." Then you list the most commonly perceived influtential men of the process and include Jefferson, Adams, and Paine, who did NOT sign the Constitution (or attend the Convention).

Secondly, I mention the Declaration of Independence because it was drafted by Thomas Jefferson (one of the most influential men of the process, by your words). You've already mentioned a few of the references to God, but I'll add the part about appealing to the "Supreme Judge of the world." Note that 'Supreme Judge' appears in Lamentations 3:59. I'll spare you the use of 'Creator' and 'God' in the Bible, since they're obviously used throughout. Also note that divine providence is essentially what Genesis is all about. These are not deist ideals, they are Biblical.

Thirdly, you argue that the content of the Declaration of Indepence is of no basis for my argument that the framers (drafters/signers/Convention delegates et al) were religious. The founding of this country is dependent upon both documents. Your points about the Declaration not being a binding legal document, absent of religious mention (even though it's not, as I illustrated above), etc. are moot. They have nothing to do with my argument that the founders were vastly religious.

Lastly, to address your first sentence, MOST of the founders were practicing Christians (in one form or another). It's very easy to try to mince words and say the KEY founders (of your opinion) were not religious, even though I would suggest you're still wrong. In defense of this claim, here's an excerpt from a letter George Washington's step-daughter wrote in response to an author's request (who was gathering info. on Washington for a book):

'General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency, with him and my grandmother. It was a beautiful church, and had a large, respectable, and wealthy congregation, who were regular attendants.'

[brandon2222]

The reason, it's an issue is because more and more people are starting to become non believers so there is a much stronger secular voice in this country. You have to understand that to non believers saying "god bless the USA" is no different than saying "zeus bless the USA". We don't want to have gods or any other myths intertwined with our government, at state or federal levels. Religion needs to stay out of that business. Thats why we have a constitution. The constitution wasn't drafted to protect christians, it was designed to protect everyone. You wouldn't like it if atheists were trying to put "one nation under atheism", or "atheist bless the USA" So we shouldn't have to hear "god bless the USA" either. One's private beliefs are their own private beliefs. Yes the belief in gods has been a strong part of this country, but ironically the key figures who drafted the constitution were deists who luckily had the foresight to protect us from religious tyranny. Thats why non believers have the RIGHT to be heard. So you might want to go back and read up on actual history or read the constitution that also ironically never mentions god. As far as your rights are concerned, just where have your rights gone? How is keeping god out of public school and government "infringing on your religious rights? I don't understand, is it really that important to you that your kids say "god bless the usa" in public schools where many children are different?? Why is that such a big deal? You might want to start warming up to the idea that America is becoming less christian everyday because If this bothers you that badly, you are going to hate the future of America if you are a fundamentalist christian.

I might not agree with it either, but this is "One nation under God". Our country was founded on this principle. So sorry, this nation was not founded by atheists. They would have no grounds to change it to that.

[NEODinar]

Firstly, you made this statement, "ironically the key figures who drafted the constitution were deists..." Then you list the most commonly perceived influtential men of the process and include Jefferson, Adams, and Paine, who did NOT sign the Constitution (or attend the Convention).

Secondly, I mention the Declaration of Independence because it was drafted by Thomas Jefferson (one of the most influential men of the process, by your words). You've already mentioned a few of the references to God, but I'll add the part about appealing to the "Supreme Judge of the world." Note that 'Supreme Judge' appears in Lamentations 3:59. I'll spare you the use of 'Creator' and 'God' in the Bible, since they're obviously used throughout. Also note that divine providence is essentially what Genesis is all about. These are not deist ideals, they are Biblical.

Thirdly, you argue that the content of the Declaration of Indepence is of no basis for my argument that the framers (drafters/signers/Convention delegates et al) were religious. The founding of this country is dependent upon both documents. Your points about the Declaration not being a binding legal document, absent of religious mention (even though it's not, as I illustrated above), etc. are moot. They have nothing to do with my argument that the founders were vastly religious.

Lastly, to address your first sentence, MOST of the founders were practicing Christians (in one form or another). It's very easy to try to mince words and say the KEY founders (of your opinion) were not religious, even though I would suggest you're still wrong. In defense of this claim, here's an excerpt from a letter George Washington's step-daughter wrote in response to an author's request (who was gathering info. on Washington for a book):

'General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency, with him and my grandmother. It was a beautiful church, and had a large, respectable, and wealthy congregation, who were regular attendants.'

Yes, I made that statement because as I already mentioned the general consensus as to who were the most significant figures were the figures I mentioned. if it's your opinion that they weren't then that certainly wouldn't coincide with the majority of historians. Just saying

Yes drafted by thomas Jefferson, arguably the least theistic of the whole bunch. If they meant to base the declaration on a christian premise, seems strange they would leave jesus out or not make any DIRECT reference to the christian god. To claim those terms are biblical, well ok, semantically speaking though they could obviously symbolize deism as I'll state again there is no direct reference to jesus or the christian god or the bible. Jews use terms from the first testament, are they christians too?

Well you are arguing that since the declaration mentions a god, that the founders and or key founders weren't deists. I agreed that most weren't but the most important ones were. As I mentioned the declaration was not necessary after we gained our independence so it's significance technically ends there, so if the founders truly wanted to frame the country on christian principles they would have surly put it in the constitution when in fact they specifically did not. Thats very telling. So if you are arguing that the majority of the founders minus the key founders were "vastly" religious, I agree, but that in no way shape or form signifies they intended the U.S. to be a "christian nation". Not at all.

Well it's not really my opinion when I provided quotes from the individuals themselves expressing their deism and or downright opposition to organized religion. There were many many more quotes but I only provided one for each founder. I would guess for every religious quote you happen to find, I could find 2 deistic quotes from the key figures.

Bottom line is this, it's pretty obvious to me that if the founders intended on basing this nation off christian principles, it would be in our nations most important document, the constitution. Atheism is growing at such a quick rate anyhow that nobody will even be having these discussions anymore in the near future. Take care

[NEODinar]

I might not agree with it either, but this is "One nation under God". Our country was founded on this principle. So sorry, this nation was not founded by atheists. They would have no grounds to change it to that.

If it was "founded" on this principle then surely those words would have been included in the constitution. "Under god" wasn't even added until 1954. Agreed, it wasn't founded by atheists it was founded by the next best thing, deists. : )

[billbill]

Love it or leave it! Stop trying to change history to suit your personal beliefs. You don't want to live in a counrty that serves God and promotes religious freedom, then go found your own "Atheist Country"! We certainly don't need you here.

[NEODinar]

Love it or leave it! Stop trying to change history to suit your personal beliefs. You don't want to live in a counrty that serves God and promotes religious freedom, then go found your own "Atheist Country"! We certainly don't need you here.

You mean like we always change history, when something is completely out of whack? Slavery was once legal and something this country was founded on too. Seems that changed because of a lot of peoples "personal beliefs". I don't live in a country that serves god, I live in the USA. Keep your myths in church where they belong if you don't want people to complain because news flash pal, religion is fading and fading fast. It seems reason is becoming a more and more popular trend these days. Go figure

[Usaok]

If we don't boot obamacide from office we will have no god god bless America to , bless ! We will be up shits creek without a paddle . A joke no , reality . ,! He is the master manipulator .......

[Weapon X]

I might not agree with it either, but this is "One nation under God". Our country was founded on this principle. So sorry, this nation was not founded by atheists. They would have no grounds to change it to that.

If that were the case that the thus country was founded under the principle of "One nation under god", please explain the Treaty of Tripoli, which was ratified in the senate and signed by President Adams and states quite clearly in Article 11 of said Traty.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, — as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Please explain that.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Weapon X