Moderators/Staff, I'm Confused

[ZigsQuote]

I'm confused about what the Off Topic forum is suppose to be for.

The Header says "Anything goes in here, but keep it respectful."

So a lot of people including myself enjoy discussing topics like

Religion, Politics, Social Issues and the like. Likewise, a lot of people

don't. But lately It seems like after a few pages of posts which

naturally are going to go back and forth and often with strong

opinions, a Mod decides to shut it down.

I understand fully the need for moderators but it seems like here

the action is because some people are reporting what's being

discussed as offensive or whatever and the mods are taking that

as reason to shut down the thread.

In my humble but accurate opinion nobody in the OFF TOPIC forum

should be able to complain, at least if the topic was clearly labeled.

If they don't like the subject matter, then they shouldn't be reading

it and if they still choose to and do complain the mods should ignore them.

Also if someone does get blatently disrespectful with foul language

or discriminatory language and don't stop after being challenged by

the victim of the words, then fine, step in and BAN THEM.

Why should the rest of us be penalized???

In Forum Rules

Under Overall Community Attitude

DO NOT deliberately start arguments. Debates are great, as long as they remain respectful!

Edited July 5, 2011 by ZigsQuote

[E A Poe]

Is not debate...........argument? For sure, it is genteel and supposedly intelligent....but still.........argument. Yup I gotta agree with you Zigs............

[Munsch]

In a nutshell you answered your own question ... keep it respectful ... you may but some others can not. I believe Adam was going to work on a all duke n' nuke'm section though that might not be moderated at all ... but that is rumor, so don't make me move this to the rumor section.

Oh and I forgot one thing ... everyone sees it differently ... you may see it one way ... and the other another. So who is really correct? Because both say they are in their mind. So without trying to take sides is why something may be closed too because it goes from debate to personal. Then people get all their little itty bitty feelings hurt and we can't just have that in the Off Topic section now can we?

[ZigsQuote]

In a nutshell you answered your own question ... keep it respectful ... you may but some others can not. I believe Adam was going to work on a all duke n' nuke'm section though that might not be moderated at all ... but that is rumor, so don't make me move this to the rumor section.

Oh and I forgot one thing ... everyone sees it differently ... you may see it one way ... and the other another. So who is really correct? Because both say they are in their mind. So without trying to take sides is why something may be closed too because it goes from debate to personal. Then people get all their little itty bitty feelings hurt and we can't just have that in the Off Topic section now can we?

Hey Munsch.......... Thanks for the quick reply. But I must persist.. The threads that

I've been in lately that have been closed were perfectly respectful debates.

The people who are going to get there itty bitty feelings hurt should not be participating

in a debate in the first place. Again they can read the topic title. We shouldn't lower

the debate to the lowest common denominator.

Don't know about that "duke-n-nuke em" forum. Could be fun but I'm afraid that

would really bring the crazies out.

[TPSprayduster]

Zigs some of those debates went way south and was not respectfully. They were just straight unprofessional and continued bringing up old crap that really did not matter. Yet some were interesting and some defiantly stupid.

[Jaxinjersey]

Hey Munsch.......... Thanks for the quick reply. But I must persist.. The threads that

I've been in lately that have been closed were perfectly respectful debates.

The people who are going to get there itty bitty feelings hurt should not be participating

in a debate in the first place. Again they can read the topic title. We shouldn't lower

the debate to the lowest common denominator.

Don't know about that "duke-n-nuke em" forum. Could be fun but I'm afraid that

would really bring the crazies out.

Zigs... I agee whole-heartedly... and have addressed the same issue before in previous posts:

...(that) is the unfortunate thing about it (that disrepectful posts carry more weight than "reasonable, respectful debate... and shut us down/censors the discussion"). I hope most on here notice that I, and some others, take thoughtful time, care and energy to post and respond to posts. And to have that minimized by an insult or disrepectful quip along a thread, punishes a good comprehensive post.

Read more:

[smee2]

Respect ... is what is missing from the Off Topic poison posts.

First respect for each other as members of the forum. Play nice, as one mod says. What may start out okay ends up being a childish confrontation of the worst kind. Disgusting and definitely NOT respectful.

Then I suggest the other aspect of respect in posting is to use respect in the subject of the posts. The political poison post is becoming a daily feature on the Off Topic thread. I am so sick of reading the headlines that describe a post wherein Obama is being trashed and bashed yet again. Can you guys not have enough respect for the position of the president, if not the person of the president, to at least not bring Mr. Obama to the playground to beat him up constantly? Very disrespectful.

And where I find the religious posts often disrespectful, not always but often, is that the poster, and their beliefs, seem to hold that only they have the answer, the solution, the Nod from God so-to-speak. There is no respect for people who disagree, who worship in another fashion, who do not agree with the poster. That is lacking in respect.

And about just ignoring the post after reading the headline? Constantly reading down the list of posts and being bombarded by these anti-Obama, personal confrontations, and religious superiority headlines is sickening enough one does not have to click on the post to be disturbed. Why disturbed? Because I, at least, am here to enjoy learning about the dinar investment, with possibly an off topic chuckle or interesting fact occasionally. And being hammered with this other stuff is really getting to me.

I hope the RV happens soon so I won't be confronted daily with all this B/S!

I used to really enjoy this site. But the off topic abusers have changed that.

There is a time and a place ... this isn't it.

smee2

[ZigsQuote]

Zigs... I agee whole-heartedly... and have addressed the same issue before in previous posts:

...(that) is the unfortunate thing about it (that disrepectful posts carry more weight than "reasonable, respectful debate... and shut us down/censors the discussion"). I hope most on here notice that I, and some others, take thoughtful time, care and energy to post and respond to posts. And to have that minimized by an insult or disrepectful quip along a thread, punishes a good comprehensive post.

Read more: http://dinarvets.com.../#ixzz1RCFWz39I

Hey Jax.... I do remember seeing a post where you expressed your frustration.

Perhaps the best thing we can do is when it happens again to start a new thread

and challenge the person who closed it to post the evidence for doing so.

[Munsch]

Hey Jax.... I do remember seeing a post where you expressed your frustration.

Perhaps the best thing we can do is when it happens again to start a new thread

and challenge the person who closed it to post the evidence for doing so.

I would not advise the challenge against a Mod in open forum like that. You need to keep it on the side lines or with Adam himself if you don't agree with the mods decision. Please read the rules again and you will understand this.

Normally a mod should be closing the post with the reason at the end anyway.

[Jaxinjersey]

Respect ... is what is missing from the Off Topic poison posts.

First respect for each other as members of the forum. Play nice, as one mod says. What may start out okay ends up being a childish confrontation of the worst kind. Disgusting and definitely NOT respectful.

Then I suggest the other aspect of respect in posting is to use respect in the subject of the posts. The political poison post is becoming a daily feature on the Off Topic thread. I am so sick of reading the headlines that describe a post wherein Obama is being trashed and bashed yet again. Can you guys not have enough respect for the position of the president, if not the person of the president, to at least not bring Mr. Obama to the playground to beat him up constantly? Very disrespectful.

And where I find the religious posts often disrespectful, not always but often, is that the poster, and their beliefs, seem to hold that only they have the answer, the solution, the Nod from God so-to-speak. There is no respect for people who disagree, who worship in another fashion, who do not agree with the poster. That is lacking in respect.

And about just ignoring the post after reading the headline? Constantly reading down the list of posts and being bombarded by these anti-Obama, personal confrontations, and religious superiority headlines is sickening enough one does not have to click on the post to be disturbed. Why disturbed? Because I, at least, am here to enjoy learning about the dinar investment, with possibly an off topic chuckle or interesting fact occasionally. And being hammered with this other stuff is really getting to me.

I hope the RV happens soon so I won't be confronted daily with all this B/S!

I used to really enjoy this site. But the off topic abusers have changed that.

There is a time and a place ... this isn't it.

smee2

Smee, seriously, I follow many of your posts and find them very reasonable... but here, I must honestly disagree. Your viewpoint expounded here is in itself disrespectful. Frankly, I don't subscirbe to this "be respectful of the office (of the President) without criticizing the person himself"... that's nonsense... and impossible to differentiate the "connection". If a person feels a strong objection to the President... they MUST, in intellectual honesty... attach it to that person... period. Without that conscientious objection... it's purely pander. Many feel the President's policies are misguided, or worse. How do you state that otherwise? There is absolutely nothing disrepectful about voicing that dissent... especially when questions arise from the point of outrage. It is actually more of a duty to voice that outrage... and have the truth sought after to provide the final clarity.

And, should the subject of a particular post "evolve" into other related issues... so be it... especially within the Off Topic Forum... it should not be stifled.... again the "free market of opinion and thought" should prevail to sort it all out.

And, as far as the religious posts are concerned... I've voiced my opinion there as well... simply, in that... any faith-based opinion is part of the fabric of the poster, and cannot... and should not... be separated from their conscientious reasoning. It is not for me, you, or anyone else to attempt to separate them from their faith-based reasoning. What we see here constantly, is their defense of that... after being attacked for voicing their faith. Those that attack are not offering simple disagreement... they are objecting to faith-based posts. That is disrespectful and intollerant.

With all of this, I agree... the common denominator is RESPECT... but it should come in the fashion of tollerance and diplomacy. One person's "poison" might be another person's "antidote". Respectful discussion will determine which is which...

I would not advise the challenge against a Mod in open forum like that. You need to keep it on the side lines or with Adam himself if you don't agree with the mods decision. Please read the rules again and you will understand this.

Normally a mod should be closing the post with the reason at the end anyway.

Munsch... Agreed... and I would never challenge a Mod, other than simply voicing my objective reasoning... generally. If you review any of my posts, I believe you will find extraordinary restaint in remaining diplomatic and objective... all in the cause of enlightenment. Please let me know if you find otherwise...

Respectfully,

Jax

[ZigsQuote]

Respect ... is what is missing from the Off Topic poison posts.

First respect for each other as members of the forum. Play nice, as one mod says. What may start out okay ends up being a childish confrontation of the worst kind. Disgusting and definitely NOT respectful.

Then I suggest the other aspect of respect in posting is to use respect in the subject of the posts. The political poison post is becoming a daily feature on the Off Topic thread. I am so sick of reading the headlines that describe a post wherein Obama is being trashed and bashed yet again. Can you guys not have enough respect for the position of the president, if not the person of the president, to at least not bring Mr. Obama to the playground to beat him up constantly? Very disrespectful.

And where I find the religious posts often disrespectful, not always but often, is that the poster, and their beliefs, seem to hold that only they have the answer, the solution, the Nod from God so-to-speak. There is no respect for people who disagree, who worship in another fashion, who do not agree with the poster. That is lacking in respect.

And about just ignoring the post after reading the headline? Constantly reading down the list of posts and being bombarded by these anti-Obama, personal confrontations, and religious superiority headlines is sickening enough one does not have to click on the post to be disturbed. Why disturbed? Because I, at least, am here to enjoy learning about the dinar investment, with possibly an off topic chuckle or interesting fact occasionally. And being hammered with this other stuff is really getting to me.

I hope the RV happens soon so I won't be confronted daily with all this B/S!

I used to really enjoy this site. But the off topic abusers have changed that.

There is a time and a place ... this isn't it.

smee2

Smee2... Dear Lady. You know I respect you very much. You were the second

person to respond to me on my very first posted reply on this site.

But Dear Smee, you are just too kind and compassionate to be hanging around

here. You need to simply be very careful what you read.

Debating is not for playing nice. It's not for the timid. And politics can get heated

because it's a high stakes, adversarial game. Winning and losing have huge and

long lasting consequences for all of us, whether we participated or not.

Religeous debates can get heated too because likewise the consequences of

ones belief or lack of are a matter of life and death to most devout believers.

I submit to you that you are indeed overly sensitive if you get disturbed just

reading down the list of topic headlines. But surely you wouldn't want to ban

certain topics in order to protect yourself from having to see them would you?

Please Smee, just try to guard yourself from us mean over zeolous debaters and

you'll be OK.

Respectfully,

I would not advise the challenge against a Mod in open forum like that. You need to keep it on the side lines or with Adam himself if you don't agree with the mods decision. Please read the rules again and you will understand this.

Normally a mod should be closing the post with the reason at the end anyway.

Alright Sir. Point taken. I will comply. but I'll still be hollaring on the inside.

[Bumper64]

Well done Munsch!!

BTW: smee2 that mod that says PLAY NICE is meeee!!!

BTW: debating can and will be done by PLAYING NICE and being respectful to other members while carrying on these debates!

If not then that is where we (MODS) WILL step in and get control of the thread by getting the members to PLAY NICE or we WILL shut it down!!

This is how this forum has been run sense 09 and we will not change it to suit how others want this site to be run until Adam tells us what changes he wants us to make!

Thanks

Bump

[cruiser]

Back in school - I captained the debate team.

I understand "respectful" debates.

If I identified a "disrespectful" member, he was warned.

If that member persisted in the disrespectful manner - they were no longer a part of the team.

It's that simple - no further debate on that subject was ever necessary.

As the above scenario relates to this thread, I cannot emphasize strongly enough, how disheartening it is to hear that a subject being debated (no matter what that subject may be) can be simply closed down because a moderator feels it needs to be stymied. I certainly mean no disrespect to any moderator, but, would you not be better off "warning" a member of consequences related to their disrespectful actions vs. closing threads?

Should a member be non-compliant, would it not be in DinarVets.com's best interest to simply ban or remove said non-compliant member, rather than hinder or present an obstacle to a viable and spirited debate?

Again, with absolutely no disrespect intended - How can a blanket statement be procreated insisting no structural changes will be made, and simply attribute that to "that's the way it's been done..."?

Obviously, the existing structure of rules has not been sufficient, in that there continues to be threads shut down - not for the content, which facilities the debate, but for the lack of respect associated with the postings by very particular members.

Frankly, I see the resolution as quite simple.

[Don & Rocio]

Smee, seriously, I follow many of your posts and find them very reasonable... but here, I must honestly disagree. Your viewpoint expounded here is in itself disrespectful. Frankly, I don't subscirbe to this "be respectful of the office (of the President) without criticizing the person himself"... that's nonsense... and impossible to differentiate the "connection". If a person feels a strong objection to the President... they MUST, in intellectual honesty... attach it to that person... period. Without that conscientious objection... it's purely pander. Many feel the President's policies are misguided, or worse. How do you state that otherwise? There is absolutely nothing disrepectful about voicing that dissent... especially when questions arise from the point of outrage. It is actually more of a duty to voice that outrage... and have the truth sought after to provide the final clarity.

And, should the subject of a particular post "evolve" into other related issues... so be it... especially within the Off Topic Forum... it should not be stifled.... again the "free market of opinion and thought" should prevail to sort it all out.

And, as far as the religious posts are concerned... I've voiced my opinion there as well... simply, in that... any faith-based opinion is part of the fabric of the poster, and cannot... and should not... be separated from their conscientious reasoning. It is not for me, you, or anyone else to attempt to separate them from their faith-based reasoning. What we see here constantly, is their defense of that... after being attacked for voicing their faith. Those that attack are not offering simple disagreement... they are objecting to faith-based posts. That is disrespectful and intollerant.

With all of this, I agree... the common denominator is RESPECT... but it should come in the fashion of tollerance and diplomacy. One person's "poison" might be another person's "antidote". Respectful discussion will determine which is which...

Munsch... Agreed... and I would never challenge a Mod, other than simply voicing my objective reasoning... generally. If you review any of my posts, I believe you will find extraordinary restaint in remaining diplomatic and objective... all in the cause of enlightenment. Please let me know if you find otherwise...

Respectfully,

Jax

Very eloquently put Jax. Respect and restraint go hand in hand and for that we should all exercise great dosages of both.

[LDR]

I've learned the Mod don't like to be challenged in an open forum. If they disagree with what you posted it will be shut down. It's Adam site so if you want to be here play by his rules which is watched by his people. It's worth the price for the entertainment alone. Remember dreaming is free and I'll see all of you at the bank. One day soon?

[ZigsQuote]

Back in school - I captained the debate team.

I understand "respectful" debates.

If I identified a "disrespectful" member, he was warned.

If that member persisted in the disrespectful manner - they were no longer a part of the team.

It's that simple - no further debate on that subject was ever necessary.

As the above scenario relates to this thread, I cannot emphasize strongly enough, how disheartening it is to hear that a subject being debated (no matter what that subject may be) can be simply closed down because a moderator feels it needs to be stymied. I certainly mean no disrespect to any moderator, but, would you not be better off "warning" a member of consequences related to their disrespectful actions vs. closing threads?

Should a member be non-compliant, would it not be in DinarVets.com's best interest to simply ban or remove said non-compliant member, rather than hinder or present an obstacle to a viable and spirited debate?

Again, with absolutely no disrespect intended - How can a blanket statement be procreated insisting no structural changes will be made, and simply attribute that to "that's the way it's been done..."?

Obviously, the existing structure of rules has not been sufficient, in that there continues to be threads shut down - not for the content, which facilities the debate, but for the lack of respect associated with the postings by very particular members.

Frankly, I see the resolution as quite simple.

Hear Hear. Nicely said Cruiser. Thank you.

[Munsch]

As the above scenario relates to this thread, I cannot emphasize strongly enough, how disheartening it is to hear that a subject being debated (no matter what that subject may be) can be simply closed down because a moderator feels it needs to be stymied. I certainly mean no disrespect to any moderator, but, would you not be better off "warning" a member of consequences related to their disrespectful actions vs. closing threads?

Should a member be non-compliant, would it not be in DinarVets.com's best interest to simply ban or remove said non-compliant member, rather than hinder or present an obstacle to a viable and spirited debate?

The problem could be that I and maybe some of the other mods might be here too long ... to see the same ol same ol, day in and day out, of repeating the same debates over and over until it is killed multiple times over. (Check past messages if you like.) So it may not be just because a mod feels it needs to be stymied but in other words it is more to get our point across and prevent dejavu. Yes sometimes we do the warnings but while we warned in say post# 20 to everyone are you always going to read up until our post before you take a heated arguement to post# 1 or #5 of what someone else wrote?

Also, remember ... it only takes sometimes 1 person to ruin a debate for others. There is no reason to ban someone too if they are a respected member with positive reputation saying one post to a thread that they disagree with in a Off Topic debate. Mod Preview maybe. And most of the time it isn't just 1 person, it can be multiple. It is easier and faster for us to moderate by closing the topic with one reason, due to it going south already of course, than to play babysitter to multiple people who should understand it is Off Topic and if you don't agree you should have click the next button instead of post.

***Read my disclaimer for those who should have clicked "next" instead of "post".***

So far as you can see ... no mod has closed this debate yet ... have we? Like I said if it stays respected. And this is not one of those that is brought up time and time again. But I do have to refer you to the rules section and if you see rules that need to be change please by all means voice your opinion to Adam to make those changes.

[RodandStaff]

My... I enjoy a respectful debate... as long as I get my way! JK! Often where the "trouble begins" is when someone throws a contrary opinion in the mix just to stir things up. As an example I knew a young man who wanted to cover all the bases... so he wore a shirt that said... "Nuke the whales"! Yup... that is what some are trying to do, they just enjoy fighting and fussing, and it doesn't matter the topic... I think I am pretty much a big enough boy to either ignore that attitude or I've learned when the discussion isn't going anywhere to bow out. I am pleased to say though, that if I converse with someone respectfully... they usually respond in kind. We may not agree, but at the end of the day we could probably have a cold one together and be the better off for it!

[Dogmatic1]

Debating is not for playing nice. It's not for the timid. And politics can get heated

because it's a high stakes, adversarial game. Winning and losing have huge and

long lasting consequences for all of us, whether we participated or not.

I think the real problem, is that "respectful" debate is subjective at best. What one poster sees as debate, could be viewed by another to be offensive. Drawing the line, is what is difficult. Sometimes, reading the threads, a mod can see where the debate is going. So to prevent, further or future onslaughts of abusive posts, a mod could close down a thread prematurely. Just something else to add as food for thought.

[pureau79]

One thing to bear in mind also is that the Mods see the behavior patterns of many posters and know that some individuals (very often the same troublesome characters) will get out of hand if left to work their impish schemes... JMO.

[ZigsQuote]

One thing to bear in mind also is that the Mods see the behavior patterns of many posters and know that some individuals (very often the same troublesome characters) will get out of hand if left to work their impish schemes... JMO.

pureau79....... You are correct. Good observation. And so what I, and a few

others, are trying to point out is that the solution to that problem should be

to figure out how to deal with those individuals without punishing the rest

of us at the same time.

Your obsevation and my response here I think represent the best summation

of this whole thread. Hope the Mods get to read it.

[pureau79]

pureau79...

Your obsevation and my response here I think represent the best summation

of this whole thread. Hope the Mods get to read it.

Zigs', I agree whole-heartedly with the principal contention. Unfortunately, the sheer number of troublemakers coupled with those who are not able to rightly perceive (in the period of my membership, at least) the contextual, and weighty value of your observation(s) far exceeds almost anyone's ability to remain objectivein practice. I have personally gathered the fleas of many dogs in spite of myself... much to my dismay. Some people have superior skills of stupidity and wield them unerringly in the most civil un-debates I have ever witnessed here on DV. I recommend a proceed with caution attitude as well as a healthy dose of private messaging.

[ZigsQuote]

Zigs', I agree whole-heartedly with the principal contention. Unfortunately, the sheer number of troublemakers coupled with those who are not able to rightly perceive (in the period of my membership, at least) the contextual, and weighty value of your observation(s) far exceeds almost anyone's ability to remain objectivein practice. I have personally gathered the fleas of many dogs in spite of myself... much to my dismay. Some people have superior skills of stupidity and wield them unerringly in the most civil un-debates I have ever witnessed here on DV. I recommend a proceed with caution attitude as well as a healthy dose of private messaging.

That was the most respectful, scathing evaluation of an opponant I believe I've ever seen.

[Polecat85]

I'm confused about what the Off Topic forum is suppose to be for.

The Header says "Anything goes in here, but keep it respectful."

So a lot of people including myself enjoy discussing topics like

Religion, Politics, Social Issues and the like. Likewise, a lot of people

don't. But lately It seems like after a few pages of posts which

naturally are going to go back and forth and often with strong

opinions, a Mod decides to shut it down.

I understand fully the need for moderators but it seems like here

the action is because some people are reporting what's being

discussed as offensive or whatever and the mods are taking that

as reason to shut down the thread.

In my humble but accurate opinion nobody in the OFF TOPIC forum

should be able to complain, at least if the topic was clearly labeled.

If they don't like the subject matter, then they shouldn't be reading

it and if they still choose to and do complain the mods should ignore them.

Also if someone does get blatently disrespectful with foul language

or discriminatory language and don't stop after being challenged by

the victim of the words, then fine, step in and BAN THEM.

Why should the rest of us be penalized???

In Forum Rules

Under Overall Community Attitude

DO NOT deliberately start arguments. Debates are great, as long as they remain respectful!

On most forums, there are moderators that get a power complex. Seems to me that some people that want to be moderators are the same ones that like being hall monitors or mall cops. Maybe that is happening here?

[joeorder]

Zigs, I echo your sentiments. Very well, said, Sir! I must admit I don't know what to do in "confronting" the moderators. I hope they understand the "spirit" of your "argument". Thanks for the post.