God is opinion and doesn't care if it's name is Capitalized... or does She?

PrehistoricMan · September 30, 2021

On 9/26/2021 at 9:17 AM, Jim1cor13 said:

Hi @PrehistoricMan

I apologize if you feel I accused just you in what I stated. I mentioned you "and a few others" so I was not just targeting you. I can see where you may have thought that.

You think I didn't read a word in this thread? I have not followed it word for word of course, but enough to get the feel for how I commented on it. Yes, I am aware when it comes to any biblical discussions, things can get easily out of hand, with everyone insisting on being "right" and of course they will first and foremost protect their beliefs and tend to "pile on" against anyone that challenges the majority. It is called being human.

I find it is near impossible to truly have discussions on certain subjects, because some can get so easily offended, rather than view it as a learning experience and the possibility that we have held certain thoughts or beliefs that perhaps were unfounded, etc.

Religion and politics are usually a no go because of that, at least for me. Too much emotion and often a defensive posture. Personally, I learned many years to question everything...it is the only way I know how to learn.

But that angers people, in many cases, even though my intent is not to anger them, but to offer another possibility, to assist them in learning to THINK for themselves, I care not if they think as I do, we all just need to give sincere thought before blindly being convinced of anything...once we think we "know" something, we tend to close our minds...and when that happens we stop thinking and learning and proceed into protection only mode.

So no, it is not just you, but you have consistently responded abrasively so I brought it up to you, and a few others.

I have no desire to be pulled into arguments, etc., I just made an observation, not at all just directed at you alone. I just posed the question to you...and "a few others".

As for my thoughts, I enjoy a discussion on this subject, if it is respectful. A little about my background...and not material to spark arguments, just some of my experiences and thoughts...my opinions. Nothing more than my opinions based upon my own research, outside the box so to speak.

I researched for many years, since the late 1980's in regards to many beliefs and how easy it is for parable, allegory and metaphor's to get twisted so out of context that it breeds some far out ideas IF taken literally and also can breed contempt. When I first began to understand some of these matters, I mentioned them to a few others in my church at the time...it did not go well.

Of course I finally had to leave because I dared question, and dared to question what was being taught, and apparently that made a few uncomfortable, and no chance given for it to be a potential learning experience.

Good thing is, years later, the person that I first told of a few things to, (one of the "elders"), I had found that was contrary to their teaching actually DID end up agreeing with what I was trying to point out. So, apparently, he no longer thought I was a "heretic".

But I never went back to that group, not a good idea because there was also too much manipulation and other toxic things within. The same people who claimed to "love" me as a brother, were in reality, just interested in me believing as they did.

When I stopped doing that, it became quite the shallow environment in some cases, not with everyone though. Some were genuine and always treated me well...leadership on the other hand, not so much.

I was just a young man trying to make sense out of things being taught that no longer made sense to me...and so I stood up, and that usually never ends well when it comes to religious matters and their doctrines and dogma's. But I made a solid case for what I was learning, and some realized that.

If we approach the bible with an open mind, as unbiased as possible, there is much benefit to be found...but when we begin to take literal things that are not intended to be taken as such, and we use that to try and justify in some cases, some very twisted ideas or beliefs, it distracts us from the beauty that is staring us in the face, and we begin to use the "letter of the law" to condemn and tear others apart, rather than the actual spirit of the law that has always been founded in LOVE and treating others as you desire to be treated.

If the outcome of our beliefs and ideas are not swallowed up by that love, then we got off track somewhere and are only in a protection mode rather than seeking love. I trust you understand this also.

We are told "god is love"...that begs the question, what do some people actually follow? In my user name here, is included "1cor13"...referring to "love never fails".

I find too much of modern christianity teaches that it DOES fail, then blames the human and "free will" for that failure. That is not what is taught if we consider the whole message and not just the parts of it that we like, that support system" rel="">support our beliefs but are not presented in their full context.

I think that is a grave error and has caused much pain. It is not possible for that love to fail...even punishment has a goal...it is always towards correction. If it were not, and punishment was truly never ending, that would be UNJUST, so we have to learn to avoid that insult, as agape love is never unjust. The term "forever" in scripture has never meant "endless", but people claim that because it is used against people often as a threat.

Would ANY human that truly loved their child ever punish them in an "endless" fashion without ever considering any hope for correction and a restoration to a good standing? Of course not...if so, it is unjust and absurd with no purpose.

If we would genuinely focus upon, for example, Romans 8, we would realize it was NOT we frail humans that made a choice about our path...we were subjected to futility and frailty NOT of our own will...that reveals an entire different story than what most of us were once taught.

In my opinion, we should pay attention to this also as a learning point. Man's "free will" or whatever people call it is not and will never be greater than the will of him who actually subjected us to futility and frailty...though some try and teach that placing all responsibility upon creation, rather than the creator.

It is difficult to move out of our comfort zone when it comes to religious beliefs...but if we are to truly learn, there is no other choice but to ask questions and be willing to be challenged. Then accept where the path leads us, even if it is not what we believed or thought. Growth comes from asking questions and a willingness to be flexible with an open mind to learn. Not easy when we become "convinced" about something.

Just a few of my thoughts, that make sense to me, and may not to anyone else, but that is ok. I respect their thoughts also. The bottom line to me of the message...treat each other as we desire to be treated...and realize that love is the greatest force of all.

Ok, enough from me, again sorry if I offended you, I was just making an observation regarding you and a few others as mentioned. Have a good day!

Well thanks for that. I too have a problem with some manmade rules that are made with JW´s. They should not do that. BUT I have read the Bible many times and studied my booty off about it. And feel, believe and think that if the JW´s do not teach the truth from the Bible, then no one does.

I would recommend this. Just read the Bible. 10 or 20 verses a day. I always ask myself about my reading....about what it says and more importantly what it doesnt say. For instance Just about Jesus himself and what he says. He sure does miss thousands of opportunities to say he is God Almighty. If he were really trying to convey that, it wouldnt be just one time in the Bible, but it would be multiple times. It isnt though. He would introduce himself to people AS God....not the son of God etc. When you find a verse like John 1:1 for instance that seems to say one thing, go to biblehub.com and see what many translations say. The trinity doctrine would also be multiple times in the Bible. The word is never even mentioned. Kind of an important goof by God IF he were really trying to get people to know him eh? So it must not be true. Like Deut 6:4 a very simple verse, God says he is one. Wouldnt that have been a GREAT time to say I am one in three? Yet he doesnt. So it MUST mean he is just one. To say Jesus is God is blasphemous. It is an offense to God.

These posts by me are really to share with others. Markinsa mind is closed. Totally. You cannot teach him anything I have found in my experience with him. My posts are for others to reason. Collosians 1:15 says Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. Romans 1:25 says if we worship the creation, we would be cursed. Since phony christians worship the creation, Jesus, according to that verse, they are doomed.

Think about it. It has been suggested that the preaching work is done by JW´s. If you truly have studied with them you know what is coming next. Matthew 24:14 says the preaching work which ONLY JWs have done will be done over the entire inhabited earth and then the end will come.

Markinsa · October 1, 2021

21 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

It is not off topic. It is very on topic. You said Satan is only an angel and an angel is all he will ever be. YET, 2 Corinthians 4:4 calls him GOD. So..........if an angel like Satan could be called a god.

Idols are called god but they in fact are not even persons, but chunks of wood and metal. The devil is a person and is also called a god. Both idols and the devil are called gods in exactly the same way: a figure of speech. Neither idols or the devil are really gods at all. (link)

[2Co 4:3-4 NASB20] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Satan is called the "god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4

Ok, finally, a passage that actually calls someone (a real person that thinks) a god other than YHWH! We admit that the devil is called a god!
Jehovah's Witnesses and other Henotheists use this sole passage to fill in that much needed little place on their "list of creatures called god chart" under the section "Satan is a god". On the surface having the Devil called God, seems to support the overall message in the chart, but this is a false conclusion.
So now we need to make a choice. When the Devil is called a god, should we interpret this to support the Jehovah's Witnesses henotheism or is it exactly like Phil 3:19 where it calls the human stomach a GOD! "whose god is their belly" (Phil 3:19). Here the Greek word for belly, is the common word for stomach. Defined as: "belly, the viscera of the body, including entire digestive and expulsion system." (J. Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek, 1997)
But it even gets worse for Jehovah's Witnesses in their efforts to find support for Henotheism in scripture. As we will see below, wooden idols are also called "gods" many times. These no more exist as gods than the devil does as a god. It is figurative language that Henotheists take literally.
Christadelphians find it more difficult to argue Jesus is a mere created god, based upon their claim that "men and angels" are also called god in scripture. This is because Christadelphians view the devil and the Holy Spirit the same way Jehovah's Witnesses view the Holy Spirit: as mere personification of good and evil. Since Christadelphians do not literally believe in either the devil or the Holy spirit as persons, they are forced to admit that the lone passage where the devil is called a god (2 Cor 4:4) is to be classed as figurative language like idols are called gods.
The devil is the real recipient of idol worship and the Bible comes right out and says that although they are called gods by men, they are really not gods at all! 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8

21 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Why cant you believe the Angel, Jesus can be called a god? Yet we both know they are not God almighty.

Because Jesus isn't an Angel and He IS GOD.

Here is a question for you, since you are so well versed in the Bible, I will not give you the verses but I'll just ask you the question.

Why in some verses does the Bible say (paraphrasing), the Spirit of God dwells in us, and in other verses it says the Spirit of Jesus Christ lives in us, and in separate verses that the Holy Spirit lives in us? How do you explain that?

.

PrehistoricMan · October 3, 2021

Then if you can admit Satan is called a God, of course I had to drag it out of you....when all you said was he was an angel, so that wasnt true was it? Jesus can be called a god too. But in both instances it doesnt make them both almighty God now does it? Angels can be Gods too. AS we have both cited.

You keep talking about Jehovahs Witnesses. NO ONE is talking about them except you. Like leftists and Trump, they must live in your head rent free. What in the blue hell is a christadelphian? Some one from philadelphia but believes in Christ? These madeup terms by you guys make me laugh.

And where does that copy and paste get off lying like that? They claim JWs see the holy spirit and Satan as JUST the personification of good and evil and that is it....Um, FIND me a JW article that says that. IF not, apologize for that. Because that is just madeup. And JWs do not admit Satan is a personage? Again find me a jw article that claims that. I know that is not true. Methinks your link is filled with inaccuracies.

As far as your questions. No, provide verses. Everything said must be proven in the Bible.

Markinsa · October 5, 2021

On 10/3/2021 at 2:53 AM, PrehistoricMan said:

Then if you can admit Satan is called a God, of course I had to drag it out of you....when all you said was he was an angel, so that wasnt true was it?

I can admit Paul referred to Satan as the god of this world (see John 8:44 - Is satan also the Father too?). Which I interpret as those who are lost, follow satan as their god, instead of Jesus. Surely, you are not suggesting that the Apostle Paul is saying Satan is GOD?

On 10/3/2021 at 2:53 AM, PrehistoricMan said:

You keep talking about Jehovahs Witnesses. NO ONE is talking about them except you.

YOU are the one that is referencing JW's websites, Had you not done that, I would have no reason to think you're a closet JW. And if the JW have the Truth as you say, why would't you want to be a JW? Have you been excommunicated from the JW Church?

On 10/3/2021 at 2:53 AM, PrehistoricMan said:

As far as your questions. No, provide verses. Everything said must be proven in the Bible.

[Rom 8:8-11 NASB20] 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

[1Co 3:16 NASB20] 16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?

[2Ti 1:14 NASB20] 14 Protect, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to [you.]

[Gal 2:20 NASB20] 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

[1Jo 4:12-13 NASB20] 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we remain in Him and He in us, because He has given to us of His Spirit.

.

Jim1cor13 · October 9, 2021

On 9/30/2021 at 2:13 AM, PrehistoricMan said:

Well thanks for that. I too have a problem with some manmade rules that are made with JW´s. They should not do that. BUT I have read the Bible many times and studied my booty off about it. And feel, believe and think that if the JW´s do not teach the truth from the Bible, then no one does.

I would recommend this. Just read the Bible. 10 or 20 verses a day. I always ask myself about my reading....about what it says and more importantly what it doesnt say. For instance Just about Jesus himself and what he says. He sure does miss thousands of opportunities to say he is God Almighty. If he were really trying to convey that, it wouldnt be just one time in the Bible, but it would be multiple times. It isnt though. He would introduce himself to people AS God....not the son of God etc. When you find a verse like John 1:1 for instance that seems to say one thing, go to biblehub.com and see what many translations say. The trinity doctrine would also be multiple times in the Bible. The word is never even mentioned. Kind of an important goof by God IF he were really trying to get people to know him eh? So it must not be true. Like Deut 6:4 a very simple verse, God says he is one. Wouldnt that have been a GREAT time to say I am one in three? Yet he doesnt. So it MUST mean he is just one. To say Jesus is God is blasphemous. It is an offense to God.

These posts by me are really to share with others. Markinsa mind is closed. Totally. You cannot teach him anything I have found in my experience with him. My posts are for others to reason. Collosians 1:15 says Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. Romans 1:25 says if we worship the creation, we would be cursed. Since phony christians worship the creation, Jesus, according to that verse, they are doomed.

Think about it. It has been suggested that the preaching work is done by JW´s. If you truly have studied with them you know what is coming next. Matthew 24:14 says the preaching work which ONLY JWs have done will be done over the entire inhabited earth and then the end will come.

All good points friend. Been within the system many years as mentioned, have no desire to reply the train wreck I witnessed as a young man within that system...not "JW" but within that system called "the church".

It was just my experience, my version of speaking for myself. Few dared to do that, but I tried. Learned a few things along the way also, that were so far outside of tradition, it just made some folks angry.

I was a youth director and teacher, studied for years and realized how much was so twisted that was being taught, and as mentioned, when I questioned the "literal" traditional narrative and countering it with ancient hebrew and greek languages, it made people angry, and funny how they no longer "loved" me.

Much of it was based upon certain words that were taken literally, yet could not be translated properly, such as "eternal" (aion signifying a period of time, so not at all unending), "hell" (often wrongly translated based upon ancient mythology version of a place of suffering and torment but actually in most cases it means "grave") etc., and it was mind blowing, but oddly people just had to have the "hell" narrative because without it they felt they had nothing to hold over someone, to push that "convert or die" message hid under "god loves you".

Anyway, it is human nature for people to want others to believe as they do...they really do not care if it is "truth", they just want YOU to speak their opinion. When anyone digs deeper into the languages used and learns to read with an open focused mind, one can begin to spot the fallacies that are held as "truth".

Keep learning, we all do hopefully, but to bicker about these matters that not ONE single person can "prove beyond a shadow of a doubt", is time wasted i think. We have claims, some people believe those claims. It is ok, their choice, as it is my choice to not get involved in a system that presents the angry wrathful "gods" narratives that do little more than suck the life out of creation.

There is MORE to the story...and of course, religion itself has lied to all of us in many ways. Some see it, some refuse due to fear. My motto...treat others as you desire to be treated...learn to love rather than live in fear. Anything outside of THAT is noise. Just my opinion. If people choose to follow a god who teaches us to love, yet attempts to kill its own creation to prove a point, makes no sense and never will.

He is acting contrary to what we were taught...LOVE one another...and we have never understood that truth. It is LOVE that is the most powerful force in this realm...and we humans still do not have a clue, we just want others to think as we do. It is odd yet funny when you think about it...and when all else fails?

Condemn those that disagree...threaten them with "eternal torture" never ending state of punishment that no thinking rational person truly believes...but they speak it because it gives them the illusion of power over others minds. So far, that hasn't worked out too well, but it HAS caused much pain and suffering throughout history and bloodshed and death. Is THIS what people follow? Apparently many do...unfortunately.

Everything to some people throughout history somehow points to and angry "god" who is about to sweep through the earth and kill us all...or at least those that "do not believe". This started when no one understood things like volcanoes, earthquakes, etc., they saw them and taught others the "gods were angry", and they used this lie to get the masses to submit out of sheer terror...and of course often took their wealth in the process.

Live, love, laugh and learn to appreciate each day...take time to observe and listen, and don't be the one who sucks the life out of others in the name of any religion. Treat others decently and kindly.

Not pointed at you alone, just a thought that is beneficial to the human heart. We are but flesh and fragile, frail and we live in a realm of futility, Romans 8 discusses this...and it wasn't man that caused this state, though humans are always blamed, or "free will" or devil or whatever relinquishes responsibility from their gods.

Just my thoughts...I have NO proof for any of it, and therefore cannot state in good conscience it is "truth". Likewise, I could no longer state or claim what I used to teach was to be viewed as "truth", I could prove nothing. Life is a matter of the heart and a life long journey of trying to learn what that means. Religion just made it into a business...THAT I can prove. :lol:

Have a great weekend!

PrehistoricMan · October 9, 2021

16 minutes ago, Jim1cor13 said:

All good points friend. Been within the system many years as mentioned, have no desire to reply the train wreck I witnessed as a young man within that system...not "JW" but within that system called "the church".

It was just my experience, my version of speaking for myself. Few dared to do that, but I tried. Learned a few things along the way also, that were so far outside of tradition, it just made some folks angry.

I was a youth director and teacher, studied for years and realized how much was so twisted that was being taught, and as mentioned, when I questioned the "literal" traditional narrative and countering it with ancient hebrew and greek languages, it made people angry, and funny how they no longer "loved" me.

Much of it was based upon certain words that were taken literally, yet could not be translated properly, such as "eternal" (aion signifying a period of time, so not at all unending), "hell" (often wrongly translated based upon ancient mythology version of a place of suffering and torment but actually in most cases it means "grave") etc., and it was mind blowing, but oddly people just had to have the "hell" narrative because without it they felt they had nothing to hold over someone, to push that "convert or die" message hid under "god loves you".

Anyway, it is human nature for people to want others to believe as they do...they really do not care if it is "truth", they just want YOU to speak their opinion. When anyone digs deeper into the languages used and learns to read with an open focused mind, one can begin to spot the fallacies that are held as "truth".

Keep learning, we all do hopefully, but to bicker about these matters that not ONE single person can "prove beyond a shadow of a doubt", is time wasted i think. We have claims, some people believe those claims. It is ok, their choice, as it is my choice to not get involved in a system that presents the angry wrathful "gods" narratives that do little more than suck the life out of creation.

There is MORE to the story...and of course, religion itself has lied to all of us in many ways. Some see it, some refuse due to fear. My motto...treat others as you desire to be treated...learn to love rather than live in fear. Anything outside of THAT is noise. Just my opinion. If people choose to follow a god who teaches us to love, yet attempts to kill its own creation to prove a point, makes no sense and never will.

He is acting contrary to what we were taught...LOVE one another...and we have never understood that truth. It is LOVE that is the most powerful force in this realm...and we humans still do not have a clue, we just want others to think as we do. It is odd yet funny when you think about it...and when all else fails?

Condemn those that disagree...threaten them with "eternal torture" never ending state of punishment that no thinking rational person truly believes...but they speak it because it gives them the illusion of power over others minds. So far, that hasn't worked out too well, but it HAS caused much pain and suffering throughout history and bloodshed and death. Is THIS what people follow? Apparently many do...unfortunately.

Everything to some people throughout history somehow points to and angry "god" who is about to sweep through the earth and kill us all...or at least those that "do not believe". This started when no one understood things like volcanoes, earthquakes, etc., they saw them and taught others the "gods were angry", and they used this lie to get the masses to submit out of sheer terror...and of course often took their wealth in the process.

Live, love, laugh and learn to appreciate each day...take time to observe and listen, and don't be the one who sucks the life out of others in the name of any religion. Treat others decently and kindly.

Not pointed at you alone, just a thought that is beneficial to the human heart. We are but flesh and fragile, frail and we live in a realm of futility, Romans 8 discusses this...and it wasn't man that caused this state, though humans are always blamed, or "free will" or devil or whatever relinquishes responsibility from their gods.

Just my thoughts...I have NO proof for any of it, and therefore cannot state in good conscience it is "truth". Likewise, I could no longer state or claim what I used to teach was to be viewed as "truth", I could prove nothing. Life is a matter of the heart and a life long journey of trying to learn what that means. Religion just made it into a business...THAT I can prove.

Have a great weekend!

You are 100% correct about hell being translated into grave. That is all it will ever mean. Thanks for your post.

PrehistoricMan · October 10, 2021

On 10/4/2021 at 9:58 PM, Markinsa said:

I can admit Paul referred to Satan as the god of this world (see John 8:44 - Is satan also the Father too?). Which I interpret as those who are lost, follow satan as their god, instead of Jesus. Surely, you are not suggesting that the Apostle Paul is saying Satan is GOD?

YOU are the one that is referencing JW's websites, Had you not done that, I would have no reason to think you're a closet JW. And if the JW have the Truth as you say, why would't you want to be a JW? Have you been excommunicated from the JW Church?

[Rom 8:8-11 NASB20] 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

[1Co 3:16 NASB20] 16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?

[2Ti 1:14 NASB20] 14 Protect, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to [you.]

[Gal 2:20 NASB20] 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

[1Jo 4:12-13 NASB20] 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we remain in Him and He in us, because He has given to us of His Spirit.

.

Well, you surely are saying Jesus is God. So if you believe Jesus is God because of John 1:1 then you have to believe Satan is God at 2 Corinthians 4:4 How does that wordplay taste? So since we know that Satan isnt God then we also know that Jesus isnt God either. You cannot have it both ways.

By the way....John 1:1 Jesus is called the word. WHAT does it mean to be called the Word?

Markinsa · October 11, 2021

4 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Well, you surely are saying Jesus is God.

Correct.

4 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

So if you believe Jesus is God because of John 1:1 then you have to believe Satan is God at 2 Corinthians 4:4

I believe Jesus is God because the scripture which tells me Jesus is God, I am not just relying on John 1:1, but the entirety of God's Word and what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me. (Do you know what the "Mystery of God" is?)

You already know that the Bible says there is only ONE God and what you are trying to do is make Jesus a separate lesser god from Jehovah and equate Him with Satan, which is blasphemous. What you have failed to recognize is Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Father God are one being, so therefore, Jesus is not a lesser god but God.

A lesser god is something man has concocted through his own wisdom.

[Deu 4:28 NLT] 28 There, in a foreign land, you will worship idols made from wood and stone--gods that neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell.

4 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

WHAT does it mean to be called the Word?

Every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

[Jhn 14:8-11 NASB20] 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time, and [yet] you have not come to know Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father; how [can] you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own, but the Father, as He remains in Me, does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

[Mat 4:4 NASB20] 4 But He answered and said, "It is written: 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

[Jhn 6:35 NASB20] 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty.

[Jhn 6:52-58 NASB20] 52 Then the Jews [began] to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?" 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 "The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 "The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him. 57 "Just as the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, the one who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread that came down out of heaven, not as the fathers ate and died; the one who eats this bread will live forever."

----

And I noticed you didn't not address the last portion of my post, can't explain it?

keylime · October 11, 2021

Jesus is God. Isaiah prophesied that a Child shall be born of a virgin and His name shall be called Immanuel which means "God with us."

Other prophecies state, He shall be call "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace, EVERLASTING FATHER"

These are the names God Himself in His own Word through multiple prophets over thousands of years declared who Jesus is.

You can't get any clearer than that.

Jesus called Holy Spirit the "Counselor" while at the same time the prophet said Jesus is the Counselor. Jesus is also God with Us. Immanuel. Everlasting Father and at the same time Prince of Peace. Those verses clearly identify God as a Triune Being. Genesis clearly shows God said " Let US make man in our image and in our likeness" God is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

People explain it like an egg. You have three parts to an egg. The shell, the white and the yolk. All three are separate yet make up an egg.

God also says He takes the simple to confound the wise. So if you are confounded by this at least you know God has called you wise.

Markinsa · October 14, 2021

On 10/4/2021 at 9:58 PM, Markinsa said:

On 10/3/2021 at 2:53 AM, PrehistoricMan said:

As far as your questions. No, provide verses. Everything said must be proven in the Bible.

[Rom 8:8-11 NASB20] 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

[1Co 3:16 NASB20] 16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?

[2Ti 1:14 NASB20] 14 Protect, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to [you.]

[Gal 2:20 NASB20] 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

[1Jo 4:12-13 NASB20] 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we remain in Him and He in us, because He has given to us of His Spirit.

@PrehistoricMan It's been almost two weeks, no answer? No explanation for why I have 3 Spirits Living in me?

.

keylime · October 15, 2021

In John 14:9, Jesus also said, "When you have seen me, you have seen the Father. I and the Father are one."

Now any son could not tell someone who has never met his father, if you have seen me, you have seen my father. And he could never tell anyone, me and my father are the same person. We are one.

So Jesus, Himself, was telling His disciples exactly who He was. Jesus said He and the Father are one in the same. If you've seen Jesus, you have seen the Father.

You got to really go along and twisted way to misunderstand that.

And again in John 14:7

If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

PrehistoricMan · October 15, 2021

7 hours ago, keylime said:

In John 14:9, Jesus also said, "When you have seen me, you have seen the Father. I and the Father are one."

Now any son could not tell someone who has never met his father, if you have seen me, you have seen my father. And he could never tell anyone, me and my father are the same person. We are one.

So Jesus, Himself, was telling His disciples exactly who He was. Jesus said He and the Father are one in the same. If you've seen Jesus, you have seen the Father.

You got to really go along and twisted way to misunderstand that.

And again in John 14:7

If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Try to wait until I have responded before doing another post please. Search For Bible Truths: In John 10:30, does Jesus say that he and his Father are one person?

"In John 10:30, does Jesus say that he and his Father are one person?"

No.

Jesus, at John 10:30, said: "I and the Father are one.”

Many Bible Greek experts tell us that Bible writers consistently described groups of individuals as “one” figuratively in the sense of their being “united in will and purpose."

Even the very TRINITARIAN New Testament Greek scholar W. E. Vine when discussing the Greek word for “one” says: “(b) metaphorically [figuratively], union and concord, e.g., John 10:30; 11:52; 17:11, 21, 22....” - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 809.

Jesus said at John 17:22: “The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as we are one.” - NASB. (Compare John 17:11. - A footnote for John 17:11 in the very trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 says: “the unity is to be like that between the Father and the Son.”)

Not only is it obvious that these Christians are not equally Christ with Jesus, nor equally God with the Father, nor are they all one person, but that they are all figuratively united in “will” and “purpose” with God. That is, they agree with and carry out the Father's will.

Also important is that the word “one” at John 10:30 and 17:22 is the neuter form hen. The two other forms for “one” are mia, which is the feminine form, and heis, the masculine form. Those who insist that John 10:30 means “the Father and I are one God” are clearly wrong as shown by New Testament Greek grammar alone. “God” in New Testament Greek is always masculine and must take masculine forms of adjectives, pronouns, etc. in agreement (see Mark 12:29, 32; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:4-6 in interlinear Bibles).

Or, as Dr. Marshall puts it in one of his basic NT Greek grammar rules:

“Adjectives must agree with the nouns they modify in number, gender,...and case”. - p. 25, Rule 7, New Testament Greek Primer, Alfred Marshall, Zondervan Publishing, 1978 printing. (Compare 1 Cor. 3:8 in interlinear Bible [esp. note footnote in The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English] with NIV; NAB; LB; and CBW.)

Therefore, the use of the neuter “one” (hen) at John 10:30 shows “one God” could not have been intended by Jesus but instead shows “metaphorically, union and concord”! It is possible to have gender irregularities when someone is described figuratively (“metaphorically”) such as “he is a Rock” or “Jesus is the Lamb,” but when he is being literally described we must have gender agreement.

If we insist on supplying an “understood” ‘God,’ it must be at a place which uses the masculine form of “one” (heis) in gender agreement (cf. Mark 10:18; Ro. 3:30). Trinitarian scholar Robert Young commented on this knowledge of the word “one” at John 10:30 in his Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary:

“The particle en [hen] being of the neuter gender, can hardly signify ‘one being, i.e. one God,’ but rather ‘one in will, purpose, counsel...” - p. 62, Baker Book House, 1977.

The very trinitarian Bible study reference book, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, agrees with trinitarian Young (above) in its discussion of John 10:30.

Truly, then, there is absolutely no evidence for a “trinitarian” interpretation at John 10:30. In fact, the real meaning shows Jesus is not God.

PrehistoricMan · October 15, 2021

On 10/10/2021 at 7:18 PM, Markinsa said:

Correct.

I believe Jesus is God because the scripture which tells me Jesus is God, I am not just relying on John 1:1, but the entirety of God's Word and what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me. (Do you know what the "Mystery of God" is?)

You already know that the Bible says there is only ONE God and what you are trying to do is make Jesus a separate lesser god from Jehovah and equate Him with Satan, which is blasphemous. What you have failed to recognize is Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Father God are one being, so therefore, Jesus is not a lesser god but God.

A lesser god is something man has concocted through his own wisdom.

[Deu 4:28 NLT] 28 There, in a foreign land, you will worship idols made from wood and stone--gods that neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell.

Every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

[Jhn 14:8-11 NASB20] 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time, and [yet] you have not come to know Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father; how [can] you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own, but the Father, as He remains in Me, does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

[Mat 4:4 NASB20] 4 But He answered and said, "It is written: 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

[Jhn 6:35 NASB20] 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty.

[Jhn 6:52-58 NASB20] 52 Then the Jews [began] to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?" 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 "The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 "The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him. 57 "Just as the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, the one who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread that came down out of heaven, not as the fathers ate and died; the one who eats this bread will live forever."

----

And I noticed you didn't not address the last portion of my post, can't explain it?

No, when John 1:1 it says THE Word. Not Mouth, not words...THE Word. Can you show me where a being called THE WORD spoke to anyone in the hebrew scriptures? You keep posting scriptures that have nothing to do with what we are talking about....I wonder why you fill up the page with them? Why dont you post Jeremiah 5:8. It would make about as much sense.

Markinsa · October 15, 2021

3 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

No, when John 1:1 it says THE Word. Not Mouth, not words...THE Word. Can you show me where a being called THE WORD spoke to anyone in the hebrew scriptures? You keep posting scriptures that have nothing to do with what we are talking about....I wonder why you fill up the page with them? Why dont you post Jeremiah 5:8. It would make about as much sense.

The Word of the Lord over 250 times in the old testament.

The Word of God appears 4 times.

P.S. Why am I possessed by three spirits, The Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Spirit?

.

keylime · October 15, 2021

5 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Try to wait until I have responded before doing another post please. Search For Bible Truths: In John 10:30, does Jesus say that he and his Father are one person?

"In John 10:30, does Jesus say that he and his Father are one person?"

No.

Jesus, at John 10:30, said: "I and the Father are one.”

Many Bible Greek experts tell us that Bible writers consistently described groups of individuals as “one” figuratively in the sense of their being “united in will and purpose."

Even the very TRINITARIAN New Testament Greek scholar W. E. Vine when discussing the Greek word for “one” says: “(b) metaphorically [figuratively], union and concord, e.g., John 10:30; 11:52; 17:11, 21, 22....” - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 809.

Jesus said at John 17:22: “The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as we are one.” - NASB. (Compare John 17:11. - A footnote for John 17:11 in the very trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 says: “the unity is to be like that between the Father and the Son.”)

Not only is it obvious that these Christians are not equally Christ with Jesus, nor equally God with the Father, nor are they all one person, but that they are all figuratively united in “will” and “purpose” with God. That is, they agree with and carry out the Father's will.

Also important is that the word “one” at John 10:30 and 17:22 is the neuter form hen. The two other forms for “one” are mia, which is the feminine form, and heis, the masculine form. Those who insist that John 10:30 means “the Father and I are one God” are clearly wrong as shown by New Testament Greek grammar alone. “God” in New Testament Greek is always masculine and must take masculine forms of adjectives, pronouns, etc. in agreement (see Mark 12:29, 32; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:4-6 in interlinear Bibles).

Or, as Dr. Marshall puts it in one of his basic NT Greek grammar rules:

“Adjectives must agree with the nouns they modify in number, gender,...and case”. - p. 25, Rule 7, New Testament Greek Primer, Alfred Marshall, Zondervan Publishing, 1978 printing. (Compare 1 Cor. 3:8 in interlinear Bible [esp. note footnote in The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English] with NIV; NAB; LB; and CBW.)

Therefore, the use of the neuter “one” (hen) at John 10:30 shows “one God” could not have been intended by Jesus but instead shows “metaphorically, union and concord”! It is possible to have gender irregularities when someone is described figuratively (“metaphorically”) such as “he is a Rock” or “Jesus is the Lamb,” but when he is being literally described we must have gender agreement.

If we insist on supplying an “understood” ‘God,’ it must be at a place which uses the masculine form of “one” (heis) in gender agreement (cf. Mark 10:18; Ro. 3:30). Trinitarian scholar Robert Young commented on this knowledge of the word “one” at John 10:30 in his Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary:

“The particle en [hen] being of the neuter gender, can hardly signify ‘one being, i.e. one God,’ but rather ‘one in will, purpose, counsel...” - p. 62, Baker Book House, 1977.

The very trinitarian Bible study reference book, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, agrees with trinitarian Young (above) in its discussion of John 10:30.

Truly, then, there is absolutely no evidence for a “trinitarian” interpretation at John 10:30. In fact, the real meaning shows Jesus is not God.

It's nice to quote others who agree with you. I stick to what the WORD actually says. AS in "His Name shall be called Immanuel "God with us". He shall be called "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace, and EVERLASTING FATHER" Explain that away. You can't. So you must take all scripture which does not contradict itself and interpret according to itself. When Jesus said He is ONE with the Father, and if you have seen ME you have seen the FATHER, and you interpret it according to what the prophet said, calling Jesus "Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace" the correct interpretation is that Jesus called Himself the Father, exactly who the Prophet said He is. I don't care what other so called experts say, I go by what God says.

Now you can run around this all you want because you refuse to see what is plainly in the text, and that is your choice. I can tell you two plus two is four and you will find a way to argue it. The Bible says, "Do not throw you pearls to swine." Now I'm not calling you a pig, but I will do what Jesus says, after you bless a house and tell someone of the Gospel. If they refuse that truth, take your blessing back, and shake the dust off your sandals as a witness against them, and keep on trucking. So I will now do as my Lord, Saviour, and God, tells me. You obviously aren't searching for the truth, you are searching for an argument. I don't argue. I present the scriptures and move on. I will let Holy Spirit deal with you. He is the one who convinces and convicts of the truth. You are not rejecting me. You are rejecting Him. And rejecting Him is blasphemy. Rejecting Jesus is the only sin that leads to eternal damnation. Because the only sin not paid for is the sin of rejecting Jesus and what He did. Also known as the "Sin unto death".

The Bible says, if you reject His gift, the payment for your sins, your sins will stand against you and you will pay for them.

Markinsa · October 21, 2021

@PrehistoricMan

I know you are probably really busy and forgot, so I'd thought I would remind you that, you still haven't answered my question.

Why in some verses does the Bible say (paraphrasing), the Spirit of God dwells in us, and in other verses it says the Spirit of Jesus Christ lives in us, and in separate verses that the Holy Spirit lives in us? How do you explain that?

Rom 8:8-11 NASB20] 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

[1Co 3:16 NASB20] 16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?

[2Ti 1:14 NASB20] 14 Protect, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to [you.]

[Gal 2:20 NASB20] 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

[1Jo 4:12-13 NASB20] 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we remain in Him and He in us, because He has given to us of His Spirit

PrehistoricMan · October 21, 2021

On 10/15/2021 at 9:00 AM, keylime said:

It's nice to quote others who agree with you. I stick to what the WORD actually says. AS in "His Name shall be called Immanuel "God with us". He shall be called "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace, and EVERLASTING FATHER" Explain that away. You can't. So you must take all scripture which does not contradict itself and interpret according to itself. When Jesus said He is ONE with the Father, and if you have seen ME you have seen the FATHER, and you interpret it according to what the prophet said, calling Jesus "Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace" the correct interpretation is that Jesus called Himself the Father, exactly who the Prophet said He is. I don't care what other so called experts say, I go by what God says.

Now you can run around this all you want because you refuse to see what is plainly in the text, and that is your choice. I can tell you two plus two is four and you will find a way to argue it. The Bible says, "Do not throw you pearls to swine." Now I'm not calling you a pig, but I will do what Jesus says, after you bless a house and tell someone of the Gospel. If they refuse that truth, take your blessing back, and shake the dust off your sandals as a witness against them, and keep on trucking. So I will now do as my Lord, Saviour, and God, tells me. You obviously aren't searching for the truth, you are searching for an argument. I don't argue. I present the scriptures and move on. I will let Holy Spirit deal with you. He is the one who convinces and convicts of the truth. You are not rejecting me. You are rejecting Him. And rejecting Him is blasphemy. Rejecting Jesus is the only sin that leads to eternal damnation. Because the only sin not paid for is the sin of rejecting Jesus and what He did. Also known as the "Sin unto death".

The Bible says, if you reject His gift, the payment for your sins, your sins will stand against you and you will pay for them.

Everything you just said, I repeat back to you. You dont have the holy spirit. You dont understand the bible at all really either. I go by what God says too. Isaiah 9:6 is easily defeated here.... Examining the Trinity: Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"

Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"

Isa. 9:6

(From the RDB Files)

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

All Christians, I believe, accept this son as being the Christ. Some will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words "Mighty God, Eternal Father," then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father."

But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles found within the name (e.g., "Mighty God") are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses.  (2) The titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

First, there is the possibility that the words (or titles) found in the literal meaning of the name apply directly to the Messiah all right but in a subordinate sense. In other words, Christ is "a mighty god" in the same sense that God's angels were called "gods" and the judges of Israel were called "gods" by God himself (also by Jesus - John 10:34, 35), and Moses was called "a god" by Jehovah himself. This is the interpretation of Is. 9:6 by the WT Society at this time (1986).

Yes, men and angels were called gods (elohim - Hebrew; theos - Greek) in a proper, but subordinate, sense by Jehovah and his inspired Bible writers. Although they were given this elevated title in a proper sense (not false gods), it was obviously with the clear understanding that it in no way implied a comparison with the Most High, Only True God. (A bank employee calling his boss, the head of the bank, "the president" would certainly not imply an equality of position, power, etc. with "The President" [of the USA].)

The word "god" as understood by those who used that term simply meant a "mighty one" - see Young's Concordance. In fact the word "Mighty" as found at Is. 9:6 (Gibbor in the original Hebrew) is also applied to the angels at Ps. 103:20 (see a modern concordance such as the New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible). It is interesting that the ancient translation of the Old Testament that Jesus frequently quoted, the Septuagint Version, renders Is. 9:6: "and his [the Messiah's] name is called the Angel [aggeloV, messenger] of Great Counsel."

The very early (ca. 160 A.D.) Christian Justin Martyr quoted Is. 9:6 also as "The Angel of mighty counsel" - "Dialogue With Trypho," ch. LXXVI.

So, just as "Lord" was applied to anyone in authority: angels, masters over servants, husbands, etc., so, too, could "god" be applied to anyone (good or bad) who was considered a "mighty person." Of course only one person could be called the "Most High God," or the "Only True God," or the "Almighty God"! [See the sidebar: "God and gods"]

In the same way, "Eternal Father" could mean that the Messiah is one who has been given eternal life and through him God has brought eternal life to many others. (We might make the comparison that the Heavenly Father has brought men to life in this world through their earthly fathers.) This would be intended in a clearly subordinate sense and not to take anything away from the ultimate honor, glory, worship, etc. due the Most High God and Father in heaven - Jehovah.

At any rate, even trinitarians do not confuse the two separate persons of the Father and the Son. They do not say the Son is the Father. They say the Father and the Son are two separate individual persons who are equally "God"!

Therefore, since we obviously cannot take "Eternal Father" in the literal sense to mean that Jesus is the Father,   we cannot take the rest of that same name (esp. `Mighty God') in its literal highest sense and say that Jesus is Mighty God, etc., either.

In addition to the distinct possibility of the use of the secondary subordinate meanings of the titles such as "God/god" as explained by Bible language scholars, we can see by the actual renderings of some trinitarian Bible translators at Is. 9:6 that they believe such subordinate meanings were intended by the inspired Bible writer.

Instead of "Mighty God," Dr. James Moffatt translated this part of Is. 9:6 as "a divine hero;" Byington has "Divine Champion;" The New English Bible has "In Battle Godlike;" The Catholic New American Bible (1970 and 1991 revision) renders it "God-Hero;" and the REB says "Mighty Hero." Even that most-respected of Biblical Hebrew language experts, Gesenius, translated it "mighty hero" - p. 45, Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon.

Also, The NIV Study Bible, in a f.n. for Ps 45:6, tells us:

"In this psalm, which praises the king and especially extols his `splendor and majesty' (v. 3), it is not unthinkable that he was called `god' as a title of honor [cf. Isa 9:6]." (Bracketed information included in original footnote. Emphasis is mine)

In addition, Rotherham has rendered "Eternal Father" as "father of progress," and the New English Bible translates it: "father of a wide realm."

The above-mentioned Bible translations by trinitarian scholars which apply the words in the name at Is. 9:6 in a subordinate sense directly to Jesus clearly show that they do not believe this scripture implies an equality with Jehovah the Father.

But, some may ask, if ‘a mighty god’ were intended in this name, why is “God” given a capital ‘G’ in most translations of this name?

The answer is that in English translations of names we often find the major words within a name (or title) are capitalized. This is similar to the way book titles, names of buildings, ships, etc. are written in English. ‘The Lord of the Rings,’ ‘The World Trade Center,’ ‘The Empire State Building,’ ‘Allure of the Seas’ (cruise ship), etc., are modern examples.

........................

And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites' personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we have already seen with "Elijah," "Abijah," etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as "my," "is," "of," etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young's and Strong's) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today's Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those "minor" words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name "Elimelech" (which is literally just "God King") means "God of (the) King."  Young's Analytical Concordance says it means "God is King."  Today's Dictionary of the Bible says it means " God his king" - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.  And an online meaning is given as “My God is the King.” - http://www.kveller.com/jewish_names/display.php?n=Elimelech&k=840

And, “God is my King.” - http://www.jhom.com/calendar/sivan/symbolism.htm .

I haven’t found any scholar/translator who says the name of Elimelech should be translated with its literal meaning of “God King.”

Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name 'Abram' "means `Exalted Father,' probably in reference to God (i.e., `[God is] Exalted Father')."- Brackets in original.

This is why another name the Messiah is to be called by at Jer. 23:6 is rendered, `The LORD [YHWH] is Our Righteousness' in the following Bibles: RSV; NRSV; NEB; NJB; JPS (Margolis, ed.); Tanakh; Byington; AT; and  ASV (footnote).  Of course other translations render it more literally by calling the Messiah "The LORD [YHWH] Our Righteousness" to help support a `Jesus is God' doctrine. Some of these (such as the NASB) actually render the very same name at Jer. 33:16 as "The LORD [or Jehovah] is Our Righteousness"! - [bracketed information is mine].

(Unfortunately for "Jesus is Jehovah" advocates, the very same name given to the Messiah at Jer. 23:16 is given to a city at Jer. 33:16.)

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3
Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.”

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated as:

"And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace" - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

‘For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, ‘Wonderful, Counselor [IS] The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.’ The two letter word ‘is,’ is usually not stated in Hebrew. Rather, the ‘is’ is understood.” - https://edward-t-babinski.blogspot.com/2016/04/prophecy-about-jesus-mighty-god.html

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:
"Wonderful counselor is God almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

And,

‘Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace’ (Hertz 1968).

Of course it could also be honestly translated: "Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace."

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[a]"The Mighty God is planning grace;
[b] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler."

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism ("Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz" means [a]"quick to the plunder;   [b] swift to the spoil" - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]"For unto us a child is born; [b] unto us a son is given." It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a number of trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.

PrehistoricMan · October 21, 2021

13 minutes ago, Markinsa said:

@PrehistoricMan

I know you are probably really busy and forgot, so I'd thought I would remind you that, you still haven't answered my question.

Why in some verses does the Bible say (paraphrasing), the Spirit of God dwells in us, and in other verses it says the Spirit of Jesus Christ lives in us, and in separate verses that the Holy Spirit lives in us? How do you explain that?

Rom 8:8-11 NASB20] 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

[1Co 3:16 NASB20] 16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?

[2Ti 1:14 NASB20] 14 Protect, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to [you.]

[Gal 2:20 NASB20] 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

[1Jo 4:12-13 NASB20] 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we remain in Him and He in us, because He has given to us of His Spirit

Sure. Easily beat. When I was back in high school our school had pep rallies. To motivate the school into going to see the football game. They often called it School SPIRIT. Now did an actual spirit inhabit us to force us to the football game or was it rather good feelings etc?

spiritsEUROPE - A Spirit of Tradition - Main spirit drinks Notice this. A spirit of tradition. Now according to you there are spirit creatures living inside of alcohol right?

Again Markinsa YOU are a literalist. Not everything in the Bible is literal. I dont know how many times one has to teach you that....but it isnt sinking in....

Spirit of '76 (sentiment) - Wikipedia

Notice it LITERALLY says sentiment.

Yes SOME are spirit creatures but many times in the Bible, in fact ALL of the verses you list are SENTIMENTS. NOT real spirits.

Markinsa · October 21, 2021

1 hour ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Again Markinsa YOU are a literalist. Not everything in the Bible is literal. I dont know how many times one has to teach you that....but it isnt sinking in....

Correct, it isn't sinking in. I have the Father, Son and Holy Spirit living in me and They are ONE. You clearly do not have the Holy Spirit revealing the Truth to you.

What does it mean that God is spirit?

The teaching that “God is spirit” is found in John 4:24: “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” Jesus said this to a woman who thought that physical locale has a bearing on proper worship of God.

The fact that God is spirit means that God the Father does not have a human body. God the Son came to earth in human form (John 1:1), but God the Father did not. Jesus is unique as Emmanuel, “God with us” (Matthew 1:23). Numbers 23:19 emphasizes God’s truthfulness by contrasting Him with mortal men: “God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

Some question why the Bible sometimes speaks of God as if He has a body. For example, Isaiah 59:1 mentions God’s “hand” and “ear.” Second Chronicles 16:9 speaks of God’s “eyes.” Matthew 4:4 puts words in God’s “mouth.” In Deuteronomy 33:27 God has “arms.” All of these verses are examples of anthropomorphism—a way of describing God with anatomical or emotional terms so that humans can better understand Him. The use of anthropomorphism, a form of figurative language, does not imply that God has an actual body.

To say that God is spirit is to say that God the Father is invisible. Colossians 1:15 calls God the “invisible God.” First Timothy 1:17 praises God, saying, “To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.”

Even though God is spirit, He is also a living, personal being. As such, we can know Him personally. Joshua 3:10 speaks of God in this way, saying, “You will know that the living God is among you.” Psalm 84:2 declares, “My heart and flesh sing for joy to the living God” (ESV).

Philosophically, God must be a spirit in order to be infinite. Also, if God was limited to a physical body, He could not be omnipresent (in all places at once). God the Father is not limited to the dimensional restrictions of created things but can exist in all places at one time. God is the uncreated First Cause that is the power behind all other beings.

Interestingly, in John 4:24 Jesus makes the connection between God being spirit and worshiping Him in spirit and in truth. The idea is that, since God is spirit, people must worship Him accurately (in truth) and in spirit (with their soul or heart), as opposed to relying on traditions, rituals, and physical locales.

PrehistoricMan · October 21, 2021

Ah....So YOU Get to copy and paste and um, NOT put a link whereas the rest of us peons have to put a link right? I know you didnt type out the above. Post the link like I have to do. Level playing field ya know.

Edited October 21, 2021 by PrehistoricMan

PrehistoricMan · October 21, 2021

You dont see how your writings completely contradicts itself do ya? First he says God is NOT a human. Then you say God came as a human. LOL....you dont even know what you believe.

keylime · October 21, 2021

Jesus said"This is not a battle of flesh and blood but of spirits, principalities, and powers in high places."

Revelation speaks of in the Last Days the Spirit of Pharmakeia" will increase. We are seeing that now with drug use and witchcraft.

Demons are spirits of the dead giants or Nephlim that were killed in Noah's flood and after that. They possess physical bodies to do their wickedness. We don't see the evil spirits around us but we see the results. Neither we don't see God's angels protecting us but we surely can look back and see that protection at times in our lives.

I take the Bible literally unless the Bible itself instructs me that I am reading a parable, or it let's me know in context not to. And I get my truth and interpretation of it from Holy Spirit and those who are led by Holy Spirit and have His gifting of the Office of Teaching, one of the Fivefold ministries of Holy Spirit.

I don't waver back and forth with my faith, nor my love for Jesus. I hunger everyday to be "conformed to His image" as God the Father has predestined for all believers.

My friendship with God is my guide, my identity, my everything. His Word is my instruction, my rod, and my staff, my shield and buckler. In my life I have grown from being flesh reactive to Word reactive. God has changed me from the inside out andI am His Child completely. Not perfect but on the journey He has for me and I wouldn't want to live this earthly life any other way.

keylime · October 21, 2021

9 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Everything you just said, I repeat back to you. You dont have the holy spirit. You dont understand the bible at all really either. I go by what God says too. Isaiah 9:6 is easily defeated here.... Examining the Trinity: Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"

Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"

Isa. 9:6

(From the RDB Files)

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

All Christians, I believe, accept this son as being the Christ. Some will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words "Mighty God, Eternal Father," then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father."

But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles found within the name (e.g., "Mighty God") are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses.  (2) The titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

First, there is the possibility that the words (or titles) found in the literal meaning of the name apply directly to the Messiah all right but in a subordinate sense. In other words, Christ is "a mighty god" in the same sense that God's angels were called "gods" and the judges of Israel were called "gods" by God himself (also by Jesus - John 10:34, 35), and Moses was called "a god" by Jehovah himself. This is the interpretation of Is. 9:6 by the WT Society at this time (1986).

Yes, men and angels were called gods (elohim - Hebrew; theos - Greek) in a proper, but subordinate, sense by Jehovah and his inspired Bible writers. Although they were given this elevated title in a proper sense (not false gods), it was obviously with the clear understanding that it in no way implied a comparison with the Most High, Only True God. (A bank employee calling his boss, the head of the bank, "the president" would certainly not imply an equality of position, power, etc. with "The President" [of the USA].)

The word "god" as understood by those who used that term simply meant a "mighty one" - see Young's Concordance. In fact the word "Mighty" as found at Is. 9:6 (Gibbor in the original Hebrew) is also applied to the angels at Ps. 103:20 (see a modern concordance such as the New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible). It is interesting that the ancient translation of the Old Testament that Jesus frequently quoted, the Septuagint Version, renders Is. 9:6: "and his [the Messiah's] name is called the Angel [aggeloV, messenger] of Great Counsel."

The very early (ca. 160 A.D.) Christian Justin Martyr quoted Is. 9:6 also as "The Angel of mighty counsel" - "Dialogue With Trypho," ch. LXXVI.

So, just as "Lord" was applied to anyone in authority: angels, masters over servants, husbands, etc., so, too, could "god" be applied to anyone (good or bad) who was considered a "mighty person." Of course only one person could be called the "Most High God," or the "Only True God," or the "Almighty God"! [See the sidebar: "God and gods"]

In the same way, "Eternal Father" could mean that the Messiah is one who has been given eternal life and through him God has brought eternal life to many others. (We might make the comparison that the Heavenly Father has brought men to life in this world through their earthly fathers.) This would be intended in a clearly subordinate sense and not to take anything away from the ultimate honor, glory, worship, etc. due the Most High God and Father in heaven - Jehovah.

At any rate, even trinitarians do not confuse the two separate persons of the Father and the Son. They do not say the Son is the Father. They say the Father and the Son are two separate individual persons who are equally "God"!

Therefore, since we obviously cannot take "Eternal Father" in the literal sense to mean that Jesus is the Father,   we cannot take the rest of that same name (esp. `Mighty God') in its literal highest sense and say that Jesus is Mighty God, etc., either.

In addition to the distinct possibility of the use of the secondary subordinate meanings of the titles such as "God/god" as explained by Bible language scholars, we can see by the actual renderings of some trinitarian Bible translators at Is. 9:6 that they believe such subordinate meanings were intended by the inspired Bible writer.

Instead of "Mighty God," Dr. James Moffatt translated this part of Is. 9:6 as "a divine hero;" Byington has "Divine Champion;" The New English Bible has "In Battle Godlike;" The Catholic New American Bible (1970 and 1991 revision) renders it "God-Hero;" and the REB says "Mighty Hero." Even that most-respected of Biblical Hebrew language experts, Gesenius, translated it "mighty hero" - p. 45, Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon.

Also, The NIV Study Bible, in a f.n. for Ps 45:6, tells us:

"In this psalm, which praises the king and especially extols his `splendor and majesty' (v. 3), it is not unthinkable that he was called `god' as a title of honor [cf. Isa 9:6]." (Bracketed information included in original footnote. Emphasis is mine)

In addition, Rotherham has rendered "Eternal Father" as "father of progress," and the New English Bible translates it: "father of a wide realm."

The above-mentioned Bible translations by trinitarian scholars which apply the words in the name at Is. 9:6 in a subordinate sense directly to Jesus clearly show that they do not believe this scripture implies an equality with Jehovah the Father.

But, some may ask, if ‘a mighty god’ were intended in this name, why is “God” given a capital ‘G’ in most translations of this name?

The answer is that in English translations of names we often find the major words within a name (or title) are capitalized. This is similar to the way book titles, names of buildings, ships, etc. are written in English. ‘The Lord of the Rings,’ ‘The World Trade Center,’ ‘The Empire State Building,’ ‘Allure of the Seas’ (cruise ship), etc., are modern examples.

........................

And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites' personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we have already seen with "Elijah," "Abijah," etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as "my," "is," "of," etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young's and Strong's) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today's Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those "minor" words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name "Elimelech" (which is literally just "God King") means "God of (the) King."  Young's Analytical Concordance says it means "God is King."  Today's Dictionary of the Bible says it means " God his king" - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.  And an online meaning is given as “My God is the King.” - http://www.kveller.com/jewish_names/display.php?n=Elimelech&k=840

And, “God is my King.” - http://www.jhom.com/calendar/sivan/symbolism.htm .

I haven’t found any scholar/translator who says the name of Elimelech should be translated with its literal meaning of “God King.”

Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name 'Abram' "means `Exalted Father,' probably in reference to God (i.e., `[God is] Exalted Father')."- Brackets in original.

This is why another name the Messiah is to be called by at Jer. 23:6 is rendered, `The LORD [YHWH] is Our Righteousness' in the following Bibles: RSV; NRSV; NEB; NJB; JPS (Margolis, ed.); Tanakh; Byington; AT; and  ASV (footnote).  Of course other translations render it more literally by calling the Messiah "The LORD [YHWH] Our Righteousness" to help support system" rel="">support a `Jesus is God' doctrine. Some of these (such as the NASB) actually render the very same name at Jer. 33:16 as "The LORD [or Jehovah] is Our Righteousness"! - [bracketed information is mine].

(Unfortunately for "Jesus is Jehovah" advocates, the very same name given to the Messiah at Jer. 23:16 is given to a city at Jer. 33:16.)

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3
Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.”

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated as:

"And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace" - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

‘For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, ‘Wonderful, Counselor [IS] The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.’ The two letter word ‘is,’ is usually not stated in Hebrew. Rather, the ‘is’ is understood.” - https://edward-t-babinski.blogspot.com/2016/04/prophecy-about-jesus-mighty-god.html

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:
"Wonderful counselor is God almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

And,

‘Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace’ (Hertz 1968).

Of course it could also be honestly translated: "Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace."

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[a]"The Mighty God is planning grace;
[b] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler."

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism ("Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz" means [a]"quick to the plunder;   [b] swift to the spoil" - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]"For unto us a child is born; [b] unto us a son is given." It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a number of trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.

I appreciate all that you wrote. I really do. However, everything you pointed out is supposition if you are not on the side of taking the Bible at face value first, then as long as it doesn't contradict the literal interpretation, I study the deeper meanings of which one can never go deep enough as "deep calleth to deep."

It is an easy thing for me to accept when Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." I don't need to do mental or any other kind of gymnastics to interpret what He speaks clearly. Now I take what Jesus said, and use that as my filter for reading, interpreting and understanding the rest of the Word, since Jesus is the Word who dwelt among us.

For me, I died after a car accident in 2015. I walked with Jesus through a giant field. If He had any problem with what I was believing, that He was God, and anything else I have learned, He certainly would have let me know. But all we did was share some laughs. We walked along chuckling away. And then He sent me back. I so look forward to being with Jesus again, but I am so enjoying every day of this life. Soon all of these small disagreements will be put to rest because once and for all we will know as we are known. We will see clearly all things.

I know I will go before God and He will say, " My boy, you truly believed my Word, like a little child. Come into my rest." And He will hug me, and I will be with them forever.

Markinsa · October 21, 2021

7 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Ah....So YOU Get to copy and paste and um, NOT put a link whereas the rest of us peons have to put a link right? I know you didnt type out the above. Post the link like I have to do. Level playing field ya know.

Hover your cell pointer over the below words and the same one in my post above (The link is embedded in those words):

What does it mean that God is spirit?

7 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

You dont see how your writings completely contradicts itself do ya? First he says God is NOT a human. Then you say God came as a human. LOL....you dont even know what you believe.

Jesus, said,

[Jhn 4:23-24 NASB20] 23 "But a time is coming, and even now has arrived, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks [to be] His worshipers. 24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Yet Moses was somehow able to see the Invisible God.

The simplicity of God's Word is like this link, it is right here in plain view, hidden underneath is the answer that you seek, yet you don't care to investigate or believe. :shrug:

.

Markinsa · October 21, 2021

5 minutes ago, keylime said:

I appreciate all that you wrote. I really do. However, everything you pointed out is supposition

He didn't write that. Check the underlined words and you will find links, one goes to a "former" Christian, now Agnostic. He's supporting the reason he believes with work from someone who doesn't even believe in God. No wonder he is so confused.

.

CRYPTO REWARDS!

God is opinion and doesn't care if it's name is Capitalized... or does She?

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Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"

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