How to Solve the Problem of Gun Violence

[Rayzur]

This post is a cut out section of a much longer paper (8 pages).... thus the first two paragraphs, which are referential to several pages of prior discussion about how to disorganize people such that they are ineffective in standing up to any gov't move that is unconstitutional. I'm leaving it in, as it makes a good point, albeit not well discussed point by point as to its destructive nature as it is in the prior pages not posted herein.

How Do We End the Violence of Recent Like that Happening in CT, CO or WI?

This might be the best first step in ending the insipid need to make this a “liberals”issue. What a perfect way to offend an entire group of people and split themoff from the common goal of so many. I personally know lots of Democrats whoown multiple guns, including hand, assault, and long, and many Republicans who wouldn’tgo near them, and advocate control. The lines are not so clearly drawn, so stoptrying to convince those sitting on the fence that they are…. Not to mentionpizzing off those who know what side of the fence they sit on, and have totolerate taunts from the other side. Ridiculous. Stay focused, be on purpose, don't derail the merits of the vital issue at hand, or dilute it by popping off with irrelevant if not inaccurate characterizations serving nothing at hand.

So letsdiscuss this as a whole team of people working together to solve a problem andleave the name calling and characterization in the elementary school at an agelevel most appropriate to this tactic.

Do you want to cut human directed violence by 75% if not greater? The answer is verysimple. Bandura proved this beyond a shadow of doubt 60 years ago. There hasnever been a research project to dispute this finding or have results that areany different. Add to that studies like the Zimbardo study or Milgram… and itis literally a no brainer how simple this is to solve:

Ban themanufacture of ALL video games in which human directed violence is thefoundation of the game. ALL games in which winning means the killing of otherhumans (or maybe even human like characters). ALL games involving the tacticalmanipulation of weapons against human or human like subjects. ALL games that involvehuman destruction, harm, or grave bodily injury as any aspect of the game, andby which points or other rewards are gained.

I suggest ban the manufacture as opposed to ban the sale to minors, simply because they willalways end up in minors hands, by some means. Indeed I would love to meet theparent who prohibited the playing of these games by their teen son, and whoseteen son didn’t end up playing it somewhere be it his friends house or thearcade. Ban the manufacture of ALL these games.

And yes, I love playing these games as much as the next person, and am very good atplaying them. I could play for hours… And when I really look at what I am doing…it is very clear. I am simulating shooting human beings in order to win a game…….

So fine, as a military officer, my brain was already wired to do this by way of induction into the US military.... HOWEVER, the military has a very precise andprescribed program of induction that has rules, regulations, structure, commandand authority to which you must submit, obey, and without question follow, nomatter what. This structure is beat into your brain long ahead of any other wiring…

These video games have only the hard wiring effect on the brain,with absolutely no built in safety mechanism as when to turn this off.... thereis No structure, No authority... No other person in command of when to play andnot play...

Why in the name of God are we acting like this is rocketscience???

Why are we being stupid to the point of talking about controllingguns, when we are ignoring the fact that we are hard wiring our kids to killhuman beings in order to win….

It is not the guns that are the problem... its the hard wiring wesubject our kids to day in and day out for years....

How many people have missed that the US Military uses sims inorder to teach military folk the best and appropriate response. How many peoplemiss that we use sims to teach real life response patterns.... Here is one tinyblurb (with reference) of many thousands of articles about the military using sims:

Simulators

Every Soldier who deploys uses some type of simulation to train critical Warfighting skills. Simulations help our Soldiers hone their skills,rehearse their missions and return to their families safely when their missionsare complete. PEO STRI responds quickly to critical, emerging requirements withinnovative acquisition and technology solutions and puts the power ofsimulation into the hands of America's Warfighters!

http://www.peostri.army.mil/

How many people have missed that these video games are sims??!!!??? ... My God, the arguments about guns are beyond inept in the faceof thousands of kids engaged in thousands of sims, in which the goal is toshoot humans in order to win...

And then we wonder why some of these kids go out and shoot human beings???!!!!??.....

The isolated kids, those with developmentally delayed social skills, those with communication problems… and on and on mental challenges to some of these youngsters…. Oh and news brief for those who don’t read… The incident of autistic spectrum disorders is increasing! What does that onecelebrity state, something like 1 in 100…. Lets add even more gas to that fire…

If people really want to do something productive in ending thiskind of violence.... they will ban the manufacture of human killing games....

And I have to say there are times I'm absolutely blown away withthe degree of stupid the prevails in these kinds of discussions.... Any one whowants to ban guns and ignore that we hard wire the brains of thousands of kidsduring their prime developmental years to "win" by way of killingother human beings, is... in my humble opinion, nothing short of a complete moron....

Its truly a wonder we don’t have even more violent events involving young men and guns…. We certainly provide plenty of role modeling as to what one does with guns whenthey are in possession of one.

And PS I know this will strike the heart of the capitalist free enterprise system producing and profiting off these games… and for that I am sorry,…. However,there is no specific constitutional amendment that guarantees the right toproduce games simulating human directed violentdeath, and I would much rather focus the argument on this real problem, before attacking the constitution…

(and yes one might be able to read into the constitution the right to pursue, etc etc…which is why I said specific amendment… as opposed to one that would have to be interpreted at best)

Stay focused, stay on target, be on purpose...

[Rayzur]

Here are some examples for those not familiar or who are not gamers who play this genre:

The editor would not let me post all media in one post, so I will have to post them in several.... and I am doing so as I believe it worth the time and effort to see exactly what is out there before people start weighing in as to whether or not guns are the problem in engendering violence....

Call of Duty 5

Far Cry 3 (excellent graphics... looks almost real.. shoot up the village to get your friends back)

Have to wait until time passes or someone comments before I can add the other links I have... (singing jeopardy theme)

[FlyHi]

Looks like another worthy mission commander....

.....hopefully not mission impossible!

[Rayzur]

Looks like another worthy mission commander....

.....hopefully not mission impossible!

Hey Fly!! Great to see you ... It will be interesting to see which mission is the more difficult... and I'm at a place where I can't call it at this point... Have a great one and lets talk soon

And here is two more links (apparently that is all the media one can post per message)

Call of Duty 4 (the background of this one reminds me ofYellowstone Nat'l Park complete w/ civilian vehicles)

Modern Warfare2 (Killing members of their own team... who do you trust) It resolves later in the game...and he is not really dead, though you have to get deeper into the game... hope I didnt wreck that for anyone playing)

I'm not going to botherwith

you can find it all over YouTube

There's so many more, andI have the links but would have to wait all night to post them… (thanks Fly forthe response so I can at least add two more before retiring for the night… ) This is probably a good enoughsampling... After watching these clips... I would have to ask.." you haveidentified guns as the problem engendering violence.... because why"????

This one is graphically violent and very realistic... Guy hacks up people/humanoids on an island.... This one is probably way too gory for most people to watch... so it should scare the helllll out of you that our kids are playing it to win....

[bodiddily]

It would certainly get my vote and would be worth the effort if you could get past the game makers losing profit for themselves and tax revenue for the government. But as usual its probably easier for the government to let these killings continue and just keep talking about it.

[FlyHi]

Wow... I'm glad I have mainly lived in third world countries with poor internet access and no gaming!!!! ....that was a scary introduction Rayzur.

Be safe

[Blondie121]

Thank you Rayzur for stating this case so clearly. I agree with you 100%.

[Iownya83]

+1!!!!!!!!!! I have been saying this for some time. Games when we were kids like Frogger and Tank (lol) were deemed as violent games but they have taken violence WAAAAYYYYYYY to far in this new age crap.

But you will never see these kids at a gun range if you do they are booted almost immediately for misconduct of the RULES. There are no cheat codes at a REAL range

[dog53]

Razor you really hit the nail on the head. I also love black op`s . But refuse to let my 9 and 10 year old grandsons play at my house. So many times when I'm on line I have to turn the sound off cause so many kids and I mean little kids are just going nuts. Cussing is putting it lightly. Its more like a disturbed rant. Every now and again I try to remind them that look this is just a game. But all I get is a F you MR. So I gave that up a long time ago. Yes just like porno we must keep this material out of our children's hands. But I see absolutely nothing being done about it.

[easyrider]

Razor you really hit the nail on the head. I also love black op`s . But refuse to let my 9 and 10 year old grandsons play at my house. So many times when I'm on line I have to turn the sound off cause so many kids and I mean little kids are just going nuts. Cussing is putting it lightly. Its more like a disturbed rant. Every now and again I try to remind them that look this is just a game. But all I get is a F you MR. So I gave that up a long time ago. Yes just like porno we must keep this material out of our children's hands. But I see absolutely nothing being done about it.

i was on black ops 2 yesterday and some little kid wanted to fight me haha also saying he could beat up the whole lobby and his mummy and daddy just got it for him for xmas truly sad. Some kids need their butt spanked. o yea and dont forget the racial slurs that are said almost in every lobby.

Edited December 27, 2012 by easyrider

[Shabibilicious]

i was on black ops 2 yesterday and some little kid wanted to fight me haha also saying he could beat up the whole lobby and his mummy and daddy just got it for him for xmas truly sad. Some kids need their a$ spanked. o yea and dont forget the racial slurs that are said almost in every lobby.

Are you sure it was a little kid......could have been Tiff.

GO RV, then BV

[dog53]

i was on black ops 2 yesterday and some little kid wanted to fight me haha also saying he could beat up the whole lobby and his mummy and daddy just got it for him for xmas truly sad. Some kids need their butt spanked. o yea and dont forget the racial slurs that are said almost in every lobby.

hahahaha yep thats about it easy. You bust a cap in the little numbskull (thats the object of the game) and they start calling you the N word . Its pretty sad really

[truthful1]

Here are some examples for those not familiar or who are not gamers who play this genre:

The editor would not let me post all media in one post, so I will have to post them in several.... and I am doing so as I believe it worth the time and effort to see exactly what is out there before people start weighing in as to whether or not guns are the problem in engendering violence....

Call of Duty 5

Far Cry 3 (excellent graphics... looks almost real.. shoot up the village to get your friends back)

Have to wait until time passes or someone comments before I can add the other links I have... (singing jeopardy theme)

Banning video games does nothing. why dont we ban bad parents, who lets their childs mind be educated by such a video game. Why not ban tetris. those blocks are hitting those others pretty hard. there are millions of people online playing such games at any given moment, yet theres not even 1/10 of one percent that murder people.

bottom line.....parents need to parent. we dont need to take the liberty from all americans to justify........all the stupid parents in america

Edited December 27, 2012 by truthful1

[dog53]

Banning video games does nothing. why dont we ban bad parents, who lets their childs mind be educated by such a video game. Why not ban tetris. those blocks are hitting those others pretty hard. there are millions of people online playing such games at any given moment, yet theres not even 1/10 of one percent that murder people.

bottom line.....parents need to parent. we dont need to take the liberty from all americans to justify........all the stupid parents in america

hahahahah I don't think tetris is a very good example of what your trying to get across man. Little blocks hitting each other really don't have the same impact as slaughtering 600 people in a airport . which is in one of the games. But I do see your point. We wouldn't need to ban these games if parents took the time to actually do a little parenting. BUT unfortunately that's not the way it is.

[truthful1]

hahahahah I don't think tetris is a very good example of what your trying to get across man. Little blocks hitting each other really don't have the same impact as slaughtering 600 people in a airport . which is in one of the games. But I do see your point. We wouldn't need to ban these games if parents took the time to actually do a little parenting. BUT unfortunately that's not the way it is.

Im surprised video games arent being channeled as a theraputic outlet for these potential murders. its a way of counceling and channeling ones anger into a fictional land, too release all those free radicals.....all the while not harming a fly.

We can make it pyschiatric therapy or rehab?

we need to ban cars and cheeseburgers. a lot of deaths come from those too

shouldnt we ban sports, where theres all this hitting and trash talking? No wonder where kids get those dirty mouths

Edited December 27, 2012 by truthful1

[jerry125]

EASY READ MY REPLY UNDER GUN CONTROLL. merry x-mas and hug your kids and thank god he is real. Jesus, n happy new year and com-on RV

[dog53]

Im surprised video games arent being channeled as a theraputic outlet for these potential murders. its a way of counceling and channeling ones anger into a fictional land, too release all those free radicals.....all the while not harming a fly.

We can make it pyschiatric therapy or rehab?

we need to ban cars and cheeseburgers. a lot of deaths come from those too

shouldnt we ban sports, where theres all this hitting and trash talking? No wonder where kids get those dirty mouths

Ok the cars and sports I can live with but ya gotta leave the big mac`s alone

[Iownya83]

Here's a thought ( and it's just my opinion), if parents are caught furnishing alcohol to minors they can be ticketed or even sued if something worse happens. Why Not M rated games? Believe me I and not for more regulations of any sort but if you are going to regulate something go to the root cause not the tools (games,guns, whatever).

We have ways of tracking everything done on the internet and if your kids are on then who's to blame? The kids or the Parents? Granted not all games are played online but still there should be some enforcement ( preferably by parents ). But today's parents call the police even when their brats won't listen, I say bring back SPANKINGS.

Humm then how far back do you go to look for the root cause when did this all start and where? I think if you work it far enough back it will lead you to BIG GOVERNMENT with their hand in every aspect of everyone's lives. my :twocents:/>/> lol back to my violent games haha.

[magawatt]

There are those who will see control of videogames as great an assault on the first amendment as some here see any form of gun control as erosion of the second. Common sense, as usual, is not a tool usually applied in these arguments.

Taking cover now.

[Rayzur]

Banning video games does nothing. why dont we ban bad parents, who lets their childs mind be educated by such a video game. Why not ban tetris. those blocks are hitting those others pretty hard. there are millions of people online playing such games at any given moment, yet theres not even 1/10 of one percent that murder people.

bottom line.....parents need to parent. we dont need to take the liberty from all americans to justify........all the stupid parents in america

I think its perhaps possible that you have missed the core/critical nuance in all this.... It really has not that much to do with parenting as much as imprinting and hard wiring. The Bandura study was during the 50s, two parent households, good families etc etc, controlled variables... We humans learn by imitation.... When good kids were presented violent modeling, they imitated it... Having never shown this behavior before (very simplistically put.... but in essence). The issue is we are hard wiring kids exposed to this day in and day out.... during the development of their brain, (which continues up to age 25).... and absent the development of neurophysiological structures (until age 25 generally) to mediate filter, or in younger teen ages, understand / apprehend fully the consequences of their behavior, past that modeled. Take that hard wiring, exposure, and add to it the Zimbardo study,.... Stanford elite college age social science majors,..... friends brutalized their friends, classmates, and colleagues, so severely it had to be called off and has never again been repeated. Throw in Millgram and you have the trifecta....

Note that the military uses sims as a proven means (for decades)...... to train the skill sets of war. All ground guys before going into combat get sim training. They use sims to instill repetitive patterns of instinctual response in shooting the enemy... The enemy is well defined. And in some of these games, the enemy is likewise defined, while in others the enemy is simply those in front of you.... Why do you suppose the military does not put a weapon in your hand the first day you show up for bot camp? There is an induction process, structure, chain of command and authority you learn to respect and obey no matter what.... In stark contrast to video games which have no other structure than killing other humans in order to win.... no stops... no built in regroup, debrief, or stop....

Tetris might be an issue if we as humans looked like colored blocks, and there was an organized society in which the blocks did not contact each other by banging them... and banging meant you would cease to exist.... Its not a statement about ending video games that have violent action.... Chasing a mushroom around a cloud to evaporate it, or turtles around a sewer to have a sword fight, does not resemble a human using a gun to pursue and then kill a another human in order to win.

I love playing the war games... everything about it... (though of course prefer that flight sims).... I totally get what the thrill is.....

I also hear people struggling with how to end gun violence. I don't think a conversation about controlling guns makes any sense, when we are hard wiring kids, with developing brains, to integrate a response pattern wherein killing humans means we win. We are consistently, repetitively, and more graphically modeling violence against other humans a a means to win a game... Its not even in the context of war anymore. You can hack up into bloody pieces, the woman in the swimsuit on the beach in front of you.... in order to win And the target has become simply that human in front of you. These images are being hard wired (by way of incorporation into the developing neurophysiology) of our children playing these games. Why are we talking about controlling guns when we won't discuss what we are exposing our kids to?

And no I dont want to give up the games... but would I if it would bring about an end violence? I guess I would have to put it this way.... I would much rather shoot an armed intruder about to hurt my kids, than throw a video game at him.... So if I had a choice as to what I would give up.... with all evidence pointing at the one being more conducive to violence than the other..... If I had to choose self defense by shooting over throwing a game at someone..... I would have have to say... I will give up the games....

PS did you actually click on the link for Dead Island and watch it to the end?

There are those who will see control of videogames as great an assault on the first amendment as some here see any form of gun control as erosion of the second. Common sense, as usual, is not a tool usually applied in these arguments.

Taking cover now.

What if there was proof, research that could be replicated with the same result.... proving that some games engender violence, e.g., shooting, others...... Would that make a difference? What if there was proof of actual harm, or danger to others or self.... Wouldnt that change the threshold..... (genuine question in reply to a good point)

[Rayzur]

A Special Deputy Master of the federal court stopped by for the night and we talked into the wee hours about the growing sentiment to initiate laws controlling guns. He is one heck of an incredible litigator, and brilliant in presentation. His initial pursuit in contrast, was going in the direction of exploring control of guns in the hands of the mentally ill. That is such an incredibly slippery slope and it didn't take long for him to realize that this too would eventually end up in controlling the ownership of guns for far many more people than would be intended in legislation to these specific events (law of unintended consequences and the organic nature of systems and organizations taking on an organic like life of it's own in self perpetuation)....

Looking at a response from the perspective of role modeling and hard wiring of kids, (violent video games, c.f., Dead Island) would be one of the most salient and constitutional approaches, in responding the type and degree of gun related violence we are currently facing. He noted that if this idea were to go viral to the point of entering the stream of consciousness of our government leaders, it would be one of the best shots at taking attention away from controlling guns (as an ineffective response) and targeting the source most able to end this type of violence.....

Not sure how we engender a viral event, but thought I would pass this on to ya'll for consideration....