Town Protests Atheists’ Threats

[Jaxinjersey]

Not me. I don't respect indifference. That is a cheap shot at both belief and non-belief, landing in neither, but oblivious to both, in fact, oblivious to everythng that matters. The indifferent person has no shoe on either foot, and belongs nowhere. He is a non-entity by his very determination to exempt himself from anything worth fighting for, and thus worth dying for. And without that, a human being is a dry socket, an empty bracket, a lost cause, a dud with no powder to blow or to share with a fellow in the trenches. So no, I don't respect him. In fact, just the opposite. I completely disrespect him and all he stands for because what he stands for is nothing at all.

An interesting and passionate reply Francie, thank you. In much of life, I, personally, fight daily for convictions like yours... and admire them, whether they are mine or not. I have that ability because I embrace others' genuine faith, that of which brings them comfort, joy and happiness. In that... it brings me the same. And, as I admire it... I don't need to feel it, although I may want to... and I will not pretend to, unless and until it was genuine. If you knew me, or even followed my passionate posts here on DV... you would find that I am extremely devout in many aspects and issues in life... very, very far from indifferent in the issues that matter to me, my family, friends... and even strangers, or people I'll never get to meet... like you. How you feel an indifference to a belief translates to emptiness, and eclipses a person's overall worth, is quite confusing to me... but I will not judge it. I might make the claim that I am simply living a humble, honest, and supportive existence... I enjoy that, as it is self-evident to those who know and care about me... That is truly the respect I garner and value.

You can't make someone "feel" something... You see, indifference is sometimes the byproduct of human nature... not the cause of it. In that... it is innocent. There is much value in that... when viewed with compassion... an perhaps an ounce of empathy.

[WallyWeaver]

Deal!

I only pointed to the second one because it goes into the exact point you were making regarding how do you know other historical figures exisited.

The thing I think we both should clearly understand, is that there is little chance we will change each other's mind. If you are like me, then you have been exposed to most of the arguments and evidence to both support and to question your views. In the end, if it is like most debates in this realm, you will believe based on your "faith" and I will trust on scientific facts. And...we will become life long friends!

Excellent, and I do agree we will probably end up as friends; that is usually the case in an engagement of ideas like this.

I think you will be surprised, though. In the spirit of Isaiah 1:18 ("Come let us reason together") I will use science, reason, and philosophy in my arguments. I think in the end you will find that it takes more faith to believe in atheism and vertical evolution than it does to simply believe that God exists and is the Author of creation (occams razor).

Since most atheistic websites say the burden of proof is on Christians fire away with your first argument (unless you want me to go first).

[Tiffany23]

Ladies first, eh? Such a Gent...

OK, I'll come out swinging.

In days of ole, people believe that God was responsible for everything, from games of chance to weather, right? A prime example is lightening. From Greek mythology down to Christianity, it was believed that God created and used lightening as a means to punish people or at least to get his point across. However, once it was discovered and proved that atmospheric electrostatic discharge was the cause, we no longer believed God was the cause. Of course, man evolving from apes was something that was seen as unbelievable not that long ago...now we can prove that two humanoid species existed side by side...homosapien and Neanderthal. Again, scientifically proved and not subject to debate..at least by those who are intelligent and agree to the universal approved scientific methods. So then what was left is explaining how thing eventually began...and the answer was the big bang. Again, tons of evidence that again is universally accepted by the scientific community.

Well what are we now left with..oh yea...what actually started the big bang...and the answer is, we don't exactly know yet. And it is only then that the Theist now attempts to claims victory...you mean you can't explain how it all began, then that proves there is a god. You get the drift, we have successfully explain the God of the Gaps until the only thing left that we don't know is how the Big Bang happen and it is only then that you can say "ah ha". I LOVE Occam's razor...so using your weapon of choice, is it easier to believe that the Universe just happen to pop out of empty space or that an all powerful all knowing God always existed and he made it out of empty space. So then where did God come from? And there you fall on Occam razor, that it is easier to explain the universe just happen than to try to explain a supreme being being responsible for it. And you can't use the answer he was always there...because then I can also say the Universe was always there.

The second one is to ask do you believe in miracles? i'm assuming you do. Do you think people of all types of terminal dieses experience miracles...people cured from cancer, flus, cardiovascular etc? Could you provide witnesses and personal testimonies? I bet you could. So now my question is, is there any illness that for some reason, your Supreme All loving Creator would not help those inflicted...at least some of the time? What if there was one illness that for some reason, he decide not to help..could you explain why that is? Well...I have one for you, why is it that no amputee has ever regained his/her lost limbs? Pretty amazing that God would provide miracles to all other suffering people but not amputees...what did they do that doesn't' deserve equal time. If you have time, here is an excellent video on it: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video10.htm

Thirdly, why is it that in 1918 God allowed up to 80 million people to die, a large part of them innocent children during the flue pandemic. You can read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

What was the point of that while at the same time.he allowed the Nazi to flurish and make way for the holocaust just a few decades later. Doesn't sound like the type of all powerful all loving being I'd want to worship...but that me.

Give up yet?

They don't call me Tenacious Tiffy for nothing...I earn it!

[caughtinthecrossfire]

I didn't do it

HAHAHAHA!! That...was so perfectly simple and perfectly timed!

+1 to you, Athiest

[caughtinthecrossfire]

Is there something you love Atheist? Your mother, wife, lover, child, dog. Now imagine if someone took an arm from it and displayed it for all to witness/laugh at. You see, Atheist, a symbol is ageless, wordless and speaks to humans in a language they cannot refuse. This is a mortal blow to Christians the world over. Don't make a joke of it, please. We are being divided in a way you have yet to comprend.

Hey, not intending to sound pushy or that I think this reply from Atheist was meant to be belittling...indeed, I don't think the reply was ment that way at all.

I'm a Christian...extremly proud of it. BUT...I understand and respect my faith enough to know when and where taking a stand will count. Repremanding someone with the name "Athiest" for something that a very secure Christian would find humorous...I want to publically say...is not something I'd be doing.

I'd bring out my personal point by focusing MORE on the Athiest(?) who initiated the law suit in the first place. I'll also point out that I'm not so sure someone pressing charges (basically the one initiating legal ramafacations through FFRF) should be able to do so annonymously.

Yeah..."lynch mob mentality" and all that...pheh...I will not even bother to go there....but

I will say that it would be nice to know if this person grew up in the town or was transplanted. Either way...let that person MOVE! I'm soooo exhausted from reading about people who move into territory JUST for the sake of providing substance for these "groups" to even target. When they remove the Fed's ability to declare "imminnent domain", then I'll condider an individual trouble makers right to change the landscape based off of a (likely) minority desire. Further...this idiot should NEVER be allowed any form of compensation any more than (yes...urban legend now) the idiot that spilled coffee in her lap and sued Mc'y D's and won.

Ok...nuff said...probly...tooo much again, LOL. Tyron, sorry if I took your reply the wrong way...just as much to Athiest if his/her reply was taken wrong. G'nite all

[WallyWeaver]

In days of ole, people believe that God was responsible for everything, from games of chance to weather, right? A prime example is lightening. From Greek mythology down to Christianity, it was believed that God created and used lightening as a means to punish people or at least to get his point across. However, once it was discovered and proved that atmospheric electrostatic discharge was the cause, we no longer believed God was the cause. Of course, man evolving from apes was something that was seen as unbelievable not that long ago...now we can prove that two humanoid species existed side by side...homosapien and Neanderthal. Again, scientifically proved and not subject to debate..at least by those who are intelligent and agree to the universal approved scientific methods. So then what was left is explaining how thing eventually began...and the answer was the big bang. Again, tons of evidence that again is universally accepted by the scientific community.

Well what are we now left with..oh yea...what actually started the big bang...and the answer is, we don't exactly know yet. And it is only then that the Theist now attempts to claims victory...you mean you can't explain how it all began, then that proves there is a god. You get the drift, we have successfully explain the God of the Gaps until the only thing left that we don't know is how the Big Bang happen and it is only then that you can say "ah ha". I LOVE Occam's razor...so using your weapon of choice, is it easier to believe that the Universe just happen to pop out of empty space or that an all powerful all knowing God always existed and he made it out of empty space. So then where did God come from? And there you fall on Occam razor, that it is easier to explain the universe just happen than to try to explain a supreme being being responsible for it. And you can't use the answer he was always there...because then I can also say the Universe was always there.

I think I am beginning to like you Tenacious Tiffy…. Your questions are well thought out and I appreciate that. You left me with a lot to cover here so please forgive my forthcoming, long response(s).

As far as your claim of previous civilizations and what they believed. I can’t argue that. But what does that have to do with what the Bible says about the origin of lightening?

Homo-sapiens and Neanderthals exist side by side today. Ever heard of rickets?

But let’s get to the serious stuff, shall we?

I simply do not agree with the supposed evolutionary process that takes us from apes to mankind. I will attempt to refute this at the bio-chemical level.

Let’s start with the spontaneous generation postulate put forth by Darwinists by looking at a basic, single cell bacteria. It is well known that in the 1950’s a fellow by the name of Stanley Miller did an experiment in his lab where he exposed some gases, in a closed environment, to an electrical discharge. And woila… one of the by-products of his experiment were a few amino acids. This was earth shattering news to evolutionists the world over. To the Darwinist this meant that the basic building blocks to life could be produced if the conditions and timing were right.

After this discovery Darwinists were quick to make the jump from amino acid to complete protein (made up of 100 to 500 amino acids) to DNA to a living cell. I say, not so fast. So it’s true that a basic building block of life was replicated in a laboratory… so what? The real question is how do you go from building block to living organism?

For instance, say you are in a room with a friend and your friend is on one side of the room throwing bits of black ink onto the wall. After some time your friend happens to throw the ink into a pattern that looks like the letter “A.” After awhile longer your friend is able to randomly produce the letter “S.” Fantastic, right? But just because a few letters were produced (building blocks of a book) doesn’t explain how something complex like the story of Romeo and Juliet came about. In other words, it is one thing to come up with the basic building blocks but how do these basic building blocks assemble themselves to make up the complex bio-machinery of a living organism?

As of today no scientist has been able to even come close to explaining how the building blocks of life could have been put together to form living systems. The basic fact is modern science really does not have any idea of how life could have originated on earth.

Let’s look further at the cell from this lense: Molecular machines (cells) are made up of a number of parts which are generally composed of proteins. Proteins are, themselves, very intricately shaped machines made up of a string of amino acids. As I stated before, a typical protein is made up of a string of 100 to 500 amino acids. Thsse amino acids are shaped specifically to interlock with each other. If just one of those 100 to 500 amino acids do not have the right shape then you do not have a protein. Which means you do not have a basic building block for a simple, single cell!

There have been calculations done on the probability of just one protein being assembled through random chance. Are you ready for this? Robert Sauer at MIT has confirmed that the mathematical probability of random occurrences producing just one chain of amino acids to form a protein is 1 in 10 to the 65^th power! Can you believe that? The chances of just one protein being randomly created are 1 in 10 with 65 zeros behind it! That would be similar to me putting a blindfold on you and then marking one atom and placing it in our galaxy. And then I will remove the blindfold and say to you,” You can have one chance to pick the one atom in the galaxy that I marked.” Pretty much impossible…

And we are just talking about one protein here. Cells are made up of strings of proteins that form specific parts which perform specific functions inside of a cell. The mathematical probability of that is not even worth mentioning.

And again, we’re just talking on the level of a single protein in a single cell here. Which makes the likelihood of a whole, single living cell forming on its own pretty much an impossibility! So if a cell is so difficult for random chance to explain then what about a much more complex system like the human body which is made up of somewhere between 50 to 75 trillion cells? Think about the organs in the body, for instance. The kidneys, the liver, the heart, the nervous system… we know today that all of these “parts” work together to form a delicate balance in the body so life is possible. Take one of these parts away and the body will not function. Cut out someone’s heart or liver and see how long they live.

The point here is say you have a very simple cluster of cells. On that cluster a very small mutation occurs where a kidney begins to grow. What would the evolutionary advantage of just the beginning of a formation of a kidney be? And let’s just say that over time (thousands of years) the procreation of that organism finally produces a fully functioning kidney. What good would that do if it hadn’t developed a liver yet? Or a circulatory system yet? Or a gall bladder yet? Or a digestive system yet? What would be the evolutionary advantage to that?

It would seem to me, if natural selection was really in effect that while that simple organism was mutating a kidney over a period of time by passing it on to progeny that natural selection (survival of the fittest) would have wiped out such an organism simply because that organism would have to expend so much energy to form just that one kidney!

Well, that brings us to another problem: The time it would take for evolutionary processes to take place. As scientists gain a better understanding of just how tremendously complex the human body is they have had the tendency to grow the figure of the age of the universe. Whereas 60 years ago scientists thought 500 million years would be enough to randomly produce life I believe today it is somewhere between 2 to 4 billion years. This creates a problem…

Let’s talk about the sun at the center of our solar system. It is pretty much well established that the sun is shrinking. It would, therefore, not be difficult to ascertain that as you go back in time the sun would be larger then it is today. We know now that the sun decreases at a rate of .1% every 100 years or 1 % every 1 thousand years. This means that 100,000 years ago the sun was twice the size at is now. That is hardly enough time for evolution to have occurred. Using that same calculation 20 million years ago the surface of the sun would be touching the surface of the earth! We would all be in need of some serious sunscreen.

Since we have as a law the 2^nd Law of Thermodynamics/ entropy which states that everything in the universe is breaking down or eroding over time, how can the problem of the shrinking sun be explained by Darwinists? If everything is moving from usable energy to unusable energy (entropy) then earth cannot possibly be more than 100,000 years old.

So, to sum it up here, it’s not just the big bang theory that “scientists” have a problem with. Spontaneous generation is a much bigger problem that science still has no answer for. There are many others but I’m not writing a doctoral thesis here. Hopefully you haven’t fallen asleep yet.

I will answer your other questions on another post.

[WallyWeaver]

The second one is to ask do you believe in miracles? i'm assuming you do. Do you think people of all types of terminal dieses experience miracles...people cured from cancer, flus, cardiovascular etc? Could you provide witnesses and personal testimonies? I bet you could. So now my question is, is there any illness that for some reason, your Supreme All loving Creator would not help those inflicted...at least some of the time? What if there was one illness that for some reason, he decide not to help..could you explain why that is? Well...I have one for you, why is it that no amputee has ever regained his/her lost limbs? Pretty amazing that God would provide miracles to all other suffering people but not amputees...what did they do that doesn't' deserve equal time. If you have time, here is an excellent video on it: http://whywontgodhea...com/video10.htm

Okay, miracles… yes I do believe in miracles. So we are on the same page it would be good to define what a miracle is. Dr. Norman Geisler defines a miracle this way:

“A miracle is a special act of God that interrupts the natural course of events. The Christian conception of the miraculous immediately depends on the existence of a theistic God. If the theistic God exists, miracles are possible. If there is a God who can act, then there can be acts of God. The only way to show that miracles are impossible is to disprove the existence of God.”

The atheist Anthony Flew describes it this way:

"A miracle is something which would never have happened had nature, as it were, been left to its own devices"

Okay, it seems they pretty much agree… onto your questions…

To your question why does God seem to discriminate between who gets healed and who doesn’t? This is a difficult question to answer because I am not God. Remember that God is a free moral Agent who makes decisions similar to the way you and I do. We are free moral agents (in a sense) as well, and it is difficult enough to explain why people do what they do let alone an omni-present , omni-powerful Being like God. I will do my best, though, with a finite mind.

A major misconception that people have about God is they expect Him to operate like some sort of cosmic Santa Claus. They feel like they can ask God for something and He should acquiesce to the request similar to the way a genie responds in granting wishes after someone rubs a lamp. Remember, God is a free moral agent and He does as He sees best. It is easier to understand God in this sense if you view Him as a parent. A child may ask their parent for a bowl of ice cream for dinner, because, well, the child feels like that is what’s best for them. The parent understands ice cream is not a good choice and exercises as a free moral agent and says no. Now, to the mind of the child this may seem unfair, but to the understanding of the parent it makes perfect sense.

This is a simplistic way of explaining why God may or may not intervene in the circumstances of life. While for us it would seem logical that God would just heal everyone who is injured or sick, God probably sees it differently. It is arrogant of us to just assume from our finite perspective that God should just do things the way we think they should be done.

Consider this from 2 Corinthians 12:8-10

"Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

In this case the Paul is writing a letter to the church at Corinth describing his many infirmities. He explains that he pleaded with the Lord to remove his infirmities but the Lord said no. Now this doesn’t seem like fair behavior toward the guy who penned 2/3’s of the New Testament. But God’s reasoning was if everything is going well in life you do not recognize your need for Me. It is only when things are tough that you recognize your need. God might say something like,"Since I need to use you in a powerful way I need to keep you in a position of need."

Does that seem cruel? Look at Paul’s response: “Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distress, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” Paul was not distressed at all and once he realized what was happening actually asked for more distress!

Now what if, in the case of infirmities, God is actually reaching out to people to draw them unto Himself? Understand that to a Christian life on this earth is not the ultimate, heaven is. You will probably have a hard time with that concept but that is how a Christian sees it. The Christian sees the soul as eternal and the body as temporal. So, any Christian would agree that if they had to suffer an infirmity in order to be woken up to the fact that they need to “get right” with God in order to get to heaven I believe any Christian would say that was worthwhile and would actually be thankful.

As far as your amputee question I think that is covered in my response so far. I can’t explain why God does not grow back limbs any better than I can explain why the women in my life like to spend more money then they take in. God is a free moral agent who does as He sees fit. Because we don’t have any readily available documented evidence that God hasn’t grown back a limb does that mean He doesn’t exist? That’s a big leap.

[WallyWeaver]

Thirdly, why is it that in 1918 God allowed up to 80 million people to die, a large part of them innocent children during the flue pandemic. You can read more here: http://en.wikipedia....18_flu_pandemic

What was the point of that while at the same time.he allowed the Nazi to flurish and make way for the holocaust just a few decades later. Doesn't sound like the type of all powerful all loving being I'd want to worship...but that me.

Give up yet?

They don't call me Tenacious Tiffy for nothing...I earn it!

Phew, you are really making me work here… I think the last time I put this much work into something like this I was in college… that was many moons ago. I am being sincere when I say,”Thank you for that!” It’s good to put the ole noggin’ to use every once in awhile.

I will do my best to answer this question and then I will have some questions for you.

I believe the question is if God exists then why does he allow catastrophies and evil to also exist?

A difficult question, no doubt. But a question the Bible has answered (I will have to use the Bible to answer your question, hope that is okay).

I will begin to answer this question with another question: Why did God create man? If God is perfect and all knowing and all powerful why would He need man at all? When speaking of God it is important to understand that God is a Spirit (Speaking of God the Father, here). Whereas we as human beings are made up of flesh and bone God’s essence is love… pretty awesome to think about, actually. So your statement that God is all-loving is very accurate.

God created man to lavish that love upon him, to fellowship with him. A wonderful thought as well. Okay, so why all of the evil and catastrophe if this is true?

We have to go back to the Garden of Eden to answer that question. God created man as a free moral agent, as I have pointed out before, with a free will. Doing this was a risk on God’s part because there was a chance that man as a free moral agent will choose to hate God rather than love Him. But that is a chance God was willing to make in order to experience a true exchange of love. You see, you can only experience true love if someone chooses to love you; if they are forced then that is not real, true love.

So God placed man in the Garden with a free will. But how could God know that man really loved Him if He was the only choice that man had? That was the purpose of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

A little history here: when God originally created the earth it was perfect. No death, no decay, the birds were singing, etc…. the earth was perfect in its original creation and that’s the environment Adam and Eve were first exposed to. It was a literal paradise… of course they would love God in such favorable conditions.

Back to the tree: God places the tree in the Garden and says,”I am placing in the Garden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You must not eat of it or you will surely die.” If you read those first few chapters in Genesis you will see that this is really the ONLY thing God told them that they must not do. They had free reign of the Garden and the earth to do whatever they wanted. They had each other to do with whatever they wanted. All they had to do was enjoy God, the earth, and each other and not eat of that tree. But what did they do? They ate of the tree.

Well why would God place the tree there in the first place? Good question. In the New Testament God said, “If you love Me you will obey Me.” In other words, the true test of love towards God is obedience. So, basically, the tree was there to test mans love for God and man failed miserably. The result:

To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire [shall be] for your husband, And he shall rule over you." Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed [is] the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat [of] it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you [are], And to dust you shall return." Gen. 3:16-19

Wow, seems kind of harsh. They disobeyed God and the penalty was death! Although, not death right away from a physical sense, only in a spiritual sense. But there was more; Paul wrote in his epistle to the Romans:

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--… Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.” Romans 5:12 and 14

So really, it was Adam’s disobeying of God (sin) that brought death to mankind. Again, seems kind of harsh, right? You bet. God put on display the seriousness of sin and what its consequences were (and still are): death and a curse. It was to be death in a physical sense, a cursed earth, a world under the subjection of sin, and broken spiritual fellowship between man and God. That’s why there is evil on earth today: earth is still under the curse. We are told in the Bible that sin cannot exist in God’s presence because God is perfectly holy. Anything sinful will just burn up in His presence.

Well, there’s the history. If the story ended there then I would agree that God would seem somewhat cruel and not loving at all. But the story doesn’t end there. While administering judgment on mankind God provided a way of salvation, if you will. God told the serpent (Satan, who tricked Eve into taking the fruit by the way) this:

So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, You [are] cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel." Gen. 3:14-15

An interesting choice of words by God: He said He would put enmity between the woman’s Seed and the serpent’s seed and ultimately the woman’s seed would conquer the serpents seed. Well… women don’t have seeds, men do. Women have eggs. This is a reference (or prophecy) of the miraculous birth of Jesus, or the immaculate conception in church speak. God, while administering a harsh judgment also gives a stunning reprieve. Even though man sinned and broke God’s law and God told man that the punishment would be death God provided man a plan of redemption. This Seed God was speaking of was, of course, Jesus, who would come later.

So to sort of wrap things up, the earth today is cursed as a result of Adam’s sin. The whole world, according to the Bible, is under the influence of sin and Satan. So when the question is asked why does evil occur on earth today? The answer is the earth is currently still under the curse. The condition of the earth today was not God’s original plan.

Why would a loving God allow that? That was the cost of Adam’s sin and God warned him ahead of time. But, because God is love, He came up with the plan of redemption to save mankind. But only those who want to be saved will be saved, God won’t force anyone to be saved.

The penalty of sin is death and separation from God. God sent His Son Jesus to die in the place of sinful man, if man will accept it. This falls in line with God respecting man as a free moral agent.

Why has God allowed this misery to go on for so long? If God would have pulled the plug already then you and I would never have had a chance to exist. I am thankful God has waited! The question from God to humanity is: Are you willing to admit that you are a sinner and accept my Son Jesus who died in your place, taking on your punishment? Ultimately, in my opinion, this is the single most important question each individual human being must answer while alive on this earth.

Is God a God of love? Absolutely…. Does the existence of evil on the earth prove God does not exist? Absolutely not. And the book of Revelation indicates that there will be a time in the future when God will return to redeem the earth back unto Himself. Christians believe that time is rapidly approaching.

I have to give my brain a rest now and get some work done. I’ll have some questions for you either late tonight or sometime tomorrow.

WW.

[Markinsa]

Thirdly, why is it that in 1918 God allowed up to 80 million people to die, a large part of them innocent children during the flue pandemic. You can read more here: http://en.wikipedia....18_flu_pandemic

What was the point of that while at the same time.he allowed the Nazi to flurish and make way for the holocaust just a few decades later. Doesn't sound like the type of all powerful all loving being I'd want to worship...but that me.

Phew, you are really making me work here… I think the last time I put this much work into something like this I was in college… that was many moons ago. I am being sincere when I say,”Thank you for that!” It’s good to put the ole noggin’ to use every once in awhile.

Short Answer:

Isaiah 57

¹ Good people pass away;

the godly often die before their time.

But no one seems to care or wonder why.

No one seems to understand

that God is protecting them from the evil to come.

² For those who follow godly paths

will rest in peace when they die.

-

[Tiffany23]

Wally…

You've been a busy beaver...thank you for putting so much effort into your response.

I took a fair amount of science when I was in school, but you are getting a bit deep for me with your first answer. But I think I can summarize it, to simplify, you are saying that the chance of things evolving as they have without some type of Creator is very remote.

Ok, I agree that the possibility of things turning out the way they have is remote but…let me ask you this..do you play golf? If I were to walk out on the green and pick out a random single blade of grass and ask you what the chance are that when you hit the ball that it would land on that blade, what would you say the chances are? Well we would have to agree, it would be pretty low…not nearly the remote possibility of what you said Rober Sauer stated…but high enough that it would be a remote possibility, agreed?

Well guess what, the ball has to land on some blade of grass, and we just happen to be that one blade…sheer randomize. Like taking a trip, you could turn left or right...you have to go forward, so choose? After so many different choices, you could end up in Denver or London, but you end up somewhere...what were the chances of ending up in London, well...the same as ending up somewhere else.

Now think of it, if we are asking the question, then obviously, we are the one blade of grass…and in a Universe as large as ours, there is going to be a few blades of grass that get balls on them. If you want to read more on this, then why don’t we read what the most brilliant scientist living today has to say about it, Stephen Hawkings at http://brembs.net/SWH.html. He goes in to the level of DNA that I think will easily refute your Dr. Sauer. And I’d bet my lunch money on someone with Dr. Hawking’s credentials any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

Not convenience, right? Then I’ll have to throw my Ace in the hole at you..the one you yourself first mention. It is FAR easier to imagine these possibilities happen thru natural selection and ENORMINOUS amounts of time (the universe after all is no baby..over 13 billion years old)…than to think an All power being that exist outside of space and time exiting. You can’t have it both ways. Sure, it is incredible that anything exists at all, but it is far easier to believe that via Dr. Hawking’s explanations than having an all power being that has always existed responsible for it.

Now to drive the dagger home:

In this article….72 Nobel Prize Winners endorsed Natural Selection, it goes on to state that 99.9% of scientist in the fields of biology, paleontology and anthropology support NS : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution

This article states that .015 percentage of scientist support creationism. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA111.html

Hmmm..your miracle explanation is a bit hazy to me. Perhaps I should have worded it, does God answer prayers with miracles. You seem to have answered why some prayers are answered and some are not. But my question is more to the point, God seems to answer some prayers regarding helping all other illnesses but amputees. And I can answer why that is, because people who think they are healed by prayer or a miracle are just again, randomly lucky, so it would seem like a miracle. However, curing an amputee would provide undeniable proof that something supernatural took place..as humans so far, cannot regenerate limbs (that may change with stem cell research). But since that has never happen, it proves that God does not exist.

Ok, for number 3, you really put your heart into it. I deeply appreciate this and it moves me that you have so much faith. But I guess it boils down to the fact that 80 million people died in one year period…and Hitler wasn’t even among the 80 million! This is the same God that people pray to for their favorite team to win a game or to help find their keys…why in the world would one waste their breath knowing that their God allowed 80 million people to die. Again, with my deepest respects, this is not an act of an all loving being, no matter what you say. To know you could save those people (many millions of them innocent children) and to spare the grief of their families and to do nothing. That is more cruel than what the Holocaust. Naw…thanks but no Thanks, but you can worship that deity all you want. I’d rather spend my time trying to find a cure.

In answer 1, you did try to stay on the same wave length of me. But on answer 2 and 3, you drifted off into anothe place. I will be glad to attempt to answer any questions you send me..but I think we are on two different plains. I deal with hard physical facts…ones that can stand up to scientific scrutiny. While you are getting more into a theology/philosophical wave length.

I have no qualms in the way that you answered, but it’s not holding any water with me. I’m sorry, but I can’t take your leap of faith. Your heart is in the stars (heaven), while my feet remain firmly planted on Mother Earth. Some say Tomatoe and some say tomato.

With Greatest Respect,

Tiff

[Tiffany23]

Short Answer:

Isaiah 57

¹ Good people pass away;

the godly often die before their time.

But no one seems to care or wonder why.

No one seems to understand

that God is protecting them from the evil to come.

² For those who follow godly paths

will rest in peace when they die.

-

Touche'

All things dull and ugly,

All creatures short and squat,

All things rude and nasty,

The Lord God made the lot.

Each little snake that poisons,

Each little wasp that stings,

He made their brutish venom.

He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,

All evil great and small,

All things foul and dangerous,

The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,

Each beastly little squid--

Who made the spikey urchin?

Who made the sharks? He did!

All things scabbed and ulcerous,

All pox both great and small,

Putrid, foul and gangrenous,

The Lord God made them all.

Amen.

[WallyWeaver]

Okay, here are my questions... I will put them down first and then read your rebuttals.

1. The human body is a complex bio-machine with many intricate systems and processes that are reliant on other intricate systems and processes in order for the body to work properly. Please explain how systems like the endocrine system, nervous system, circulatory system, and digestive systems could have evolved either independently or together over a long process of time when all of these systems are dependent on each other to create the perfect balance for a human body to function. To put it another way, if just one part of any of these complete systems is missing (heart, liver, thyroid, intestines, etc.) all of the systems will fail. How does evolution account for this?

2. In the spirit of Occams razor if the great flood in the book of Genesis is not true please explain these irrefutable facts:

a. Clusters of clam fossils have been discovered on the summit of Mt. Everest

b. The Himalyan range, the Alps, the Rockies, Mt. Eversest, and pretty much the majority of the mountain ranges of the world are composed of ocean bottom sediments complete with marine fossils.

[patb1]

First of all let me say I am A Christian,however I am far from perfect and I am certainly no match for the intellectual side of either one of you.

I have just one question !

Tiffany, if you don't believe in God, then why do you capitalize his name in every instance? Capitalizing the name of God to me shows a sign of reverence and respect..

Please don't think I'm trying to me sarcastic or mean when I ask this, I simply want to know .

Thank you

Respectfully

Pat

[WallyWeaver]

I took a fair amount of science when I was in school, but you are getting a bit deep for me with your first answer. But I think I can summarize it, to simplify, you are saying that the chance of things evolving as they have without some type of Creator is very remote. I am saying the chance of complex living organisms such as the human body evolving from an amino acid are impossible. My point was that just the make up of a protein (which is only a part of a cell) would be nearly impossible. I'm not just alking blades of grass on a golf range here. I'm talking about 1 in 10 to the 56th power odds that a single protein in a cell was the product of random natural occcurrences. I didn't even go into the probabilities of a cell formed by spontaneous generation because the numbers would be ludicrous. The fact is, modern science does not have an answer for how life began from non-life. Everything they have come up with has been totally debunked.

Ok, I agree that the possibility of things turning out the way they have is remote but…let me ask you this..do you play golf? If I were to walk out on the green and pick out a random single blade of grass and ask you what the chance are that when you hit the ball that it would land on that blade, what would you say the chances are? Well we would have to agree, it would be pretty low…not nearly the remote possibility of what you said Rober Sauer stated…but high enough that it would be a remote possibility, agreed? Okay, with you so far....

Well guess what, the ball has to land on some blade of grass, and we just happen to be that one blade…sheer randomize. Like taking a trip, you could turn left or right...you have to go forward, so choose? After so many different choices, you could end up in Denver or London, but you end up somewhere...what were the chances of ending up in London, well...the same as ending up somewhere else. You've lost me here. I'll go back to the body... the bodies systems are extremely precise and work together to create a balance. This balance must be maintained in order for the body to work, there are no exceptions. If the body is missing the heart, it will not work. No thyroid? No workie, etc. The bodies' systems cannot be random, they must be very precise. The laws of the universe work this way as well. The laws of the universe (Boyles law of gases, gravity, inertia, thermodynamics, etc.) are in effect and are not willy-nilly or random. Think if the law of gravity was random... what kind of chaos would that cause? I would suggest that these facts of science (human bio-systems and laws of sciences) indicate that someone set these functions and laws into place...

Now think of it, if we are asking the question, then obviously, we are the one blade of grass…and in a Universe as large as ours, there is going to be a few blades of grass that get balls on them. If you want to read more on this, then why don’t we read what the most brilliant scientist living today has to say about it, Stephen Hawkings at http://brembs.net/SWH.html. He goes in to the level of DNA that I think will easily refute your Dr. Sauer. And I’d bet my lunch money on someone with Dr. Hawking’s credentials any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

Not convenience, right? Then I’ll have to throw my Ace in the hole at you..the one you yourself first mention. It is FAR easier to imagine these possibilities happen thru natural selection and ENORMINOUS amounts of time (the universe after all is no baby..over 13 billion years old)…than to think an All power being that exist outside of space and time exiting. You can’t have it both ways. Sure, it is incredible that anything exists at all, but it is far easier to believe that via Dr. Hawking’s explanations than having an all power being that has always existed responsible for it. The sun is deteriorating at a rate of .1% every hundred years, 1% every 1 thousand years, and will vanish in 100,000 years. Taking that backwards the sun was twice the size it is now 100,000 years ago. 20 million years ago the surface of the sun and the surface of the earth were touching. The second law of thermodynamics states that everything is moving from order to disorder, or, all usable energy is moving towards unusable energy. Think about it: animals and humans become fossilized, they turn into fossil fuels in the earth, we put those fuels in our cars and the fuels become vapor. Those people and animals are still here they are just out in the atmosphere as unusable energy. So, knowing this the sun cannot fuel itself, it can only continually get smaller. This tells us a few things: either the earth was added to this solar system only about 50,000 years ago or our solar system is much, much younger than 4.5 billion years. Either way, the long periods of time evolutionists say they need are not supported by what we know about our solar system today.

Now to drive the dagger home:

In this article….72 Nobel Prize Winners endorsed Natural Selection, it goes on to state that 99.9% of scientist in the fields of biology, paleontology and anthropology support NS : http://en.wikipedia....t_for_evolution

Why is this a surprise? It is the only thing taught in school at every level. I'm sure in Galileo's day 99% of the learned believed the universe revolved around the earth. That's what got him thrown into prison... he didn't agree with the scientific establishment.

This article states that .015 percentage of scientist support creationism. http://www.talkorigi...c/CA/CA111.html

Again, not a surprise. I'm sure 99% of government employees are satisfied with their jobs as well.

Hmmm..your miracle explanation is a bit hazy to me. Perhaps I should have worded it, does God answer prayers with miracles. You seem to have answered why some prayers are answered and some are not. But my question is more to the point, God seems to answer some prayers regarding helping all other illnesses but amputees. And I can answer why that is, because people who think they are healed by prayer or a miracle are just again, randomly lucky, so it would seem like a miracle. However, curing an amputee would provide undeniable proof that something supernatural took place..as humans so far, cannot regenerate limbs (that may change with stem cell research). But since that has never happen, it proves that God does not exist. I see, so when a person with verified terminal cancer, x-rays of tumors and all, has a prayer meeting in an ICU and 1 week later all of the tumors are gone... that's not a miracle? If you would like I could roll out the countless verifiable miracles that have occurred...

Ok, for number 3, you really put your heart into it. I deeply appreciate this and it moves me that you have so much faith. But I guess it boils down to the fact that 80 million people died in one year period…and Hitler wasn’t even among the 80 million! This is the same God that people pray to for their favorite team to win a game or to help find their keys…why in the world would one waste their breath knowing that their God allowed 80 million people to die. Again, with my deepest respects, this is not an act of an all loving being, no matter what you say. To know you could save those people (many millions of them innocent children) and to spare the grief of their families and to do nothing. That is more cruel than what the Holocaust. Naw…thanks but no Thanks, but you can worship that deity all you want. I’d rather spend my time trying to find a cure. How is sending His own Son to die for a humanity that despises Him not an act of love? It is not God's purpose to make everyone's temporal experience better. He did that already in the Garden of Eden and was rejected. Instead God provided a way for mankind to be secure eternally which trumps the temporal.

In answer 1, you did try to stay on the same wave length of me. But on answer 2 and 3, you drifted off into anothe place. I will be glad to attempt to answer any questions you send me..but I think we are on two different plains. I deal with hard physical facts…ones that can stand up to scientific scrutiny. While you are getting more into a theology/philosophical wave length. You deal with hard physical facts... ever been in love? How can that be measured as a hard, physical fact? I'm pretty sure you don't live life like a robot... emotionless. And I'm also pretty sure you don't live life that way. Ever do a nice thing for a total stranger knowing you would never receive anything in return? That is not very Darwinian of you. What advantage will that give you from an evolutionary perspective? The time and resources you spent will have actually harmed you. If you are dissatisfied with my answers you need only look at the nature of your questions. In question 3 you questioned how could a God of love allow 80 million people to die? How can that be answered with hard, scientific fact? In question 2 you asked me to get inside God's head and explain why He doesn't perform miracles on amputees. At least that's how I took it. I'm perfectly comfortable staying in the realm of science. As a male it is easier for me to stay purely logical than it is for me to delve into "feelings."

I have no qualms in the way that you answered, but it’s not holding any water with me. I’m sorry, but I can’t take your leap of faith. Your heart is in the stars (heaven), while my feet remain firmly planted on Mother Earth. Some say Tomatoe and some say tomato.

With Greatest Respect, I also have respect for you and your willingness to debate a complete stranger in an open forum. Hats off to you.

Tiff

[Goldeelox]

Has anybody noticed that it's illegal to discriminate against another person on the basis of race, gender, and religion? .... With the exception of Christians that is.......

Not only is this the exception, but it also seems to be socially acceptable. Does anybody see this besides me?

I have done a little bit of research on this and here is what I found: "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

[AoK]

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Mt.16:15

Shalom

[WallyWeaver]

Touche'

All things dull and ugly,

All creatures short and squat,

All things rude and nasty,

The Lord God made the lot.

Each little snake that poisons,

Each little wasp that stings,

He made their brutish venom.

He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,

All evil great and small,

All things foul and dangerous,

The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,

Each beastly little squid--

Who made the spikey urchin?

Who made the sharks? He did!

All things scabbed and ulcerous,

All pox both great and small,

Putrid, foul and gangrenous,

The Lord God made them all.

Amen.

Ah Tiff... nice find. Haven't seen this before... I will have to take exception to it, though.

The main problem with this poem is it claims God is the Author of evil. God is not the Author of evil but only created free will which allowed for the possibility of evil. That was a risk of giving free will to His creation.

A few syllogisms for you and a conundrum for atheists, to boot:

1. All things that God created are good

2. Evil is not godd

3. Therefore evil was not created by God

1. God created everything

2. God did not create evil

3. Therefore evil is not a thing

What is evil? Evil is the absence of good. In fact, we would not know what evil is unless we had a very good understanding of what good is. How can you say someone is being rude unless you understand what being nice is? Breaking a law like running a red light is bad but only because you understand that not running a red light is good. The fact is, good can exist without evil but evil cannot exist without good. Evil is simply a corruption of good.

[WallyWeaver]

Whoops, my first syllogism is a bit confusing because of bad spelling. Here goes again:

1. All things that God created are good

2. Evil is not good

3. Therefore evil was not created by God

[Jaxinjersey]

First of all let me say I am A Christian,however I am far from perfect and I am certainly no match for the intellectual side of either one of you.

I have just one question !

Tiffany, if you don't believe in God, then why do you capitalize his name in every instance? Capitalizing the name of God to me shows a sign of reverence and respect..

Please don't think I'm trying to me sarcastic or mean when I ask this, I simply want to know .

Thank you

Respectfully

Pat

Hi Pat... I will not answer for Tiffany, as I'm sure she will reply... but I will answer for myself, and perhaps others...

In fact, you answered your own question... capitalizing God IS a sign of reverence and respect to the understood meaning of the word, whether you agree there is a god (not necessary to capitalize here, as it is not used as a proper noun) or not. God is a proper noun when used as an acknowledged entity in written text.

So, really it is a respect for those who believe in God. To refer to God as "god", would simply be wrong grammatically, and disrespectful to those you're communicating with.

Hope that helped...

[MITCH10]

Tiff,

I'm sure by now you know what / how I think of you. I admire your intellect and your ability to debate without putting one on the offence. I'm looking forward to see where your life takes you.

I started working when I was nine years old and lived on my own when I was fifteen, I lived in a condemed house that rats fell out of the ceiling into my bed at night. I ate the potatoes and dropped watermelons from the fields to survive. And that was in the mid seventies not the thirties or forties. I wasn't afforded the opportunity to receive a formal education and to be honest I don't have the brains for one. However, I do have a phd in the school of hard knocks and I will survive, and I'm a Christian. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and I have witnessed blessings bestowed by his father the Lord our GOD.

With all that said I invite you to study the book of Revelation. In the new testament Jesus' disciples ask him when he was going to return. He told them that he did not know the time that only the Heavenly Father above knew the hour. However he did give them the signs to watch for and told them that these things MUST COME TO PAST before he returns. Tiff those things are coming to past as we speak. We are taking part in that as investors in this currency. Jesus spoke of a ONE WORLD government, religion, and money. Those things are forming and coming to past today. Those things were revealed by Jesus 2000 years ago, they have been recorded and passed on to us to read and study. Please explain that dear.

I know you are extremely intellegent and most like minded people do not believe in GOD and think only weak-minded people believe. I don't have the intellect to debate these issues. However, as I have stated I have studied the book of Revelation, studied the New World Order, The United Nations, witnessed the "euro" and I will witness Babylon rise again, unless GOD sees fit for me to come home early.

Revelation teaches us that we will witness world-wide floods, eathhquakes etc. Look at Japan last year, earthquake / tsunami and then Haitis earthquake right after that. Revelation also teaches us that the WORLD will be in such dire straits that the anti-christ will step in and claim to be able to solve all the worlds problems. I often wondered what could be so bad that it will affect the entire planet and would I ever live see it. Well sister I believe we are living through those times now and I feel like the worlds financial issues are the begining of the end. I feel like this RV can and will solve alot of the worlds issues. But those times will be short lived.

Its hard for me NOT to believe when I witness those things foretold in the book of Revelation.

And yes there were days that I wondered about God and was this some cult? Then I saw where recently (past five or ten years) there were two young boys that died in seperate accidents, (one in a car wreck with his dad) went to heaven, and returned to earth. One boy told his mother that he got to play with his sister. His mother freaked out because they had lost the little girl before he was born and they had never told him of her. The other boy told his dad that he got to sit next to GOD and GOD told him things but he wasn't allowed to tell his dad. But he did tell his dad that he (his dad) would be with Jesus when he returned to earth to fight his final battle with satan. And one more, there were two brothers that went to Atlanta on business. They exited their hotel and one was shot in the head from a drive by and immediately fell to his death. He stated that he remembered walking out of the hotel, hearing the gun shot, and the next thing that he could remember was descending into what smelt like flesh burning and hearing the screams of humans. At that time a large hand engulfed him and said " it isn't yet your time" and pulled him from hell. When you see / read of these encounters it hard to not believe.

As a Christian, I pray that one day you too will recieve Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. He tells us that through him is the ONLY way to the Father GOD. It would be horiffic to live an eterinty in hell.

Your friend,

Mitch.

[Tiffany23]

Oh my Gosh...I go away for a day and now you've given me so much homework that my response will make War and Peace look like a Reader's Digest!

Mitch, Wally, Jax...you are all being great sports! Thank you for being both kind and thought provoking in both this posting and throughout our chats in other places on this site.

Where to begin?

Okay...first the easy pickings:

"In this article….72 Nobel Prize Winners endorsed Natural Selection, it goes on to state that 99.9% of scientist in the fields of biology, paleontology and anthropology support NS : http://en.wikipedia....t_for_evolution

Why is this a surprise? It is the only thing taught in school at every level. I'm sure in Galileo's day 99% of the learned believed the universe revolved around the earth. That's what got him thrown into prison... he didn't agree with the scientific establishment.

This article states that .015 percentage of scientist support creationism. http://www.talkorigi...c/CA/CA111.html

Again, not a surprise. I'm sure 99% of government employees are satisfied with their jobs as well."

If we can't agree that scientists...especially a majority of Nobel winners, know what they are talking about, then I won't be able to prove anything to you. Your mind is made up. I have no problem with this fact. To be honest, my mind is also totally made up, there is nothing you could say or do that would make me believe in Christianity. I've spent 15 years (ok, maybe not a long time for some of you), exploring my spiritualism...and I am very comfortable with my beliefs. I have science that supports my Atheist side and I have Buddhism that supports my spiritual side. The main reason I'm participating in this, is: 1. To make readers aware that there are others out there that believe equally strong in Non-Christian ways 2. To shine light on those who keep "slagging" non Christians 3. For those people who are sitting on the fence, and thinking...Christianity doesn't seem to be my cup of tea...but what else is there? This I'm giving them an opportunity to explore other paths.

Next:

1. The human body is a complex bio-machine with many intricate systems and processes that are reliant on other intricate systems and processes in order for the body to work properly. Please explain how systems like the endocrine system, nervous system, circulatory system, and digestive systems could have evolved either independently or together over a long process of time when all of these systems are dependent on each other to create the perfect balance for a human body to function. To put it another way, if just one part of any of these complete systems is missing (heart, liver, thyroid, intestines, etc.) all of the systems will fail. How does evolution account for this?

Answer: Wally...I work for the National Science Foundation, and I showed your question to one of our leading biologist. His basic answer was time. You take natural selection in which random chance makes slight differences which ends up make things better, and throw in a few billion years and you end up getting a better mouse trap. But, I suspect that won't' answer your question...so I'll post you my email address and give you his email address and he said he would be glad to discuss this with you in detail.

May I counter with a few quick thoughts of my own in this area? Why is it that males of almost every mammal species have nipples? Why would a God give males nipple if the reason to have nipples is solely to provide milk to offspring? Seems kind of useless doesn't it?

Next, take your arm, relax it, rest it on a table..look at your hand now...notice it is curled..why? Specifically, why are your fingers not laying straight out? Seems odd doesn't it? Can you explaiin it? I can, it's left over from the days when our ancestors slept in trees and needed to grip onto tree branches as they slept. Have fun explaining that one away!

Also...can you pls explain why some people to this day are born with tails? See: http://acidcow.com/pics/20770-people-born-with-tails-8-pics.html

2. In the spirit of Occam's razor if the great flood in the book of Genesis is not true please explain these irrefutable facts:

a. Clusters of clam fossils have been discovered on the summit of Mt. Everest

b. The Himalayan range, the Alps, the Rockies, Mt. Everest, and pretty much the majority of the mountain ranges of the world are composed of ocean bottom sediments complete with marine fossils.

Answer:

1. Shells on mountains are easily explained by uplift of the land. Although this process is slow, it is observed happening today, and it accounts not only for the seashells on mountains but also for the other geological and paleontological features of those mountains. The sea once did cover the areas where the fossils are found, but they were not mountains at the time; they were shallow seas.

2. A flood cannot explain the presence of marine shells on mountains for the following reasons:

* Floods erode mountains and deposit their sediments in valleys.

* In many cases, the fossils are in the same positions as they grow in life, not scattered as if they were redeposit by a flood. This was noted as early as the sixteenth century by Leonardo da Vinci (Gould 1998).

* Other evidence, such as fossilized tracks and burrows of marine organisms, show that the region was once under the sea. Seashells are not found in sediments that were not formerly covered by sea.

Mountains form due to plate tectonics. They are literally the result of the earth being pushed upwards and together, like creases in the earth's surface. Take a piece of cloth, grab either side of it lengthwise and start pushing them together -- now imagine that same process happening in the earth's plates. Fossils that were buried on the ocean floor were shifted along with the rock, and locked in place when the mud from the floor of the ocean condensed into rock.

Once again, this is not proof of a global flood. Fossils couldn't find their way into solid rock unless they've been there for millions of years, not several thousand. The fossils were already present before Everest came to its full size and position. There is absolutely no way that they could have been embedded in the rock after it formed, even if there had been a global flood.

The Indian subcontinent has been subducting under the Asian continent for some millions of years, causing an uplift that has raised strata that were once submerged to considerable altitudes. None of those shells were laid down during human tenancy on this orb; they are much older. There is in fact NO evidence of a worldwide flood, at any time during the 4320 million years since the formation of the moon; certainly, no such thing has occurred during the 800,000 years of history recorded in the annual layers of the Antarctic ice pack. (A flood would have melted the ice.)

Source(s):

Prothero, Evolution: what the fossils say, and why it matters.

Various papers in Nature, showing analysis of the Antarctic ice.

Mills, Atheist Universe

Next:

Ok, Revelations was brought up. And the belief that we are living in those days outlined in the pages. First of all, why does everyone that has ever read Revelations think it is happening in their life time? Do you think others felt the same in other turbulent times? Maybe during the dustbowls of the 1930s that lead into WWII? Maybe in 1964 during the Cuban missile crises? Or maybe the year without a Summer, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

See this page for what has been written about Christ's return...his prophets thought he would be coming back in their life times...over 2,000.years ago!: http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/prophet.htm

According to the scientist that were sitting around in the lunch room yesterday, they stated that we are in the middle of a natural warming period that goes in 100,000 years cycle. These are scientist that actually dig the ice cores out of the Antarctic mind you..and they say that human haven't been writing things down for very long...say 5,000 years, which is a blink in the eye when it comes to geo time period. Hate to break your heart, but your grandkids will still be discussing how odd the weather is and that it may be a sign of the end.

Now my turn:

Why is it that the majority of you are Christian? Why aren't you a Muslim? Or Hindu? Or like me, Buddhist? The answer is because you have mimicked your surrounds. That is, the US is mainly a Christian country, and no doubt your parents were Christian. So you were brought up and have been exposed overwhelmingly to Christian teachings. I read one time (and I did try to find it honest) that only 4% of people throughout the world actually ever change their religious beliefs from those that they had been brought up in. Mind you, I'm not talking about changing from being a Catholic to a Methodist...I'm talking about going from being a Christian to a Muslim type of change. So, how do you know that this religion that you were brought up in, is either true or the actual one for you? I was brought up a Catholic, my mother is from Britain but has Irish parents...however, I was exposed to both Islam, when I lived in Turkey and Buddhism when I lived in Okinawa. I made my choice on what fit me.

So, if you have only had peperoni pizza all your life and that is all that was offered, how do you know you won't like ham and pineapple better...the truth is..you don't!

Secondly, have any of you actually read up on the history of Christianity? I'm not talking about reading the bible, I'm saying read up on the actual history of Christianity. I have, and let me enlighten you on a very interesting note. It was a Roman Emperor named Constantine that made Christianity the official Roman religion. If it had not been for that, then Christianity would have been just a footnote in the book on religions that were once practiced. Because you have been so kind, I will provide an "unbiased" reference here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity

However, if I were a unscrupulous Atheist, I would bring up facts relating the stories about how his mother was a prostitute (camp follower) and that Christianity owes its popularity to her. But...I'll play nice! Bottom line: A Roman Emperor wanted to build cohesion among his troops, so he made them all worship a little known religion that his mom practiced. If not for this, Christianity would not exist today. It all comes down to PR.

Finally.....regarding the comment about why Christians are picked on for being bias, while other religions and especially Atheist are not...that's because Sweetie...many of you guys like to gang up and not give people their Constitutional rights. So the only way we can make you play fair, is to lay down the law. Remember, you aren't supposed to make any law that infringes upon my beliefs...play fair and we won't make waves.

[WallyWeaver]

Oh my Gosh...I go away for a day and now you've given me so much homework that my response will make War and Peace look like a Reader's Digest!

Okay...first the easy pickings:

If we can't agree that scientists...especially a majority of Nobel winners, know what they are talking about, then I won't be able to prove anything to you. Your mind is made up. I have no problem with this fact. To be honest, my mind is also totally made up, there is nothing you could say or do that would make me believe in Christianity. I've spent 15 years (ok, maybe not a long time for some of you), exploring my spiritualism...and I am very comfortable with my beliefs. I have science that supports my Atheist side and I have Buddhism that supports my spiritual side. The main reason I'm participating in this, is: 1. To make readers aware that there are others out there that believe equally strong in Non-Christian ways 2. To shine light on those who keep "slagging" non Christians 3. For those people who are sitting on the fence, and thinking...Christianity doesn't seem to be my cup of tea...but what else is there? This I'm giving them an opportunity to explore other paths.

Next:

1. The human body is a complex bio-machine with many intricate systems and processes that are reliant on other intricate systems and processes in order for the body to work properly. Please explain how systems like the endocrine system, nervous system, circulatory system, and digestive systems could have evolved either independently or together over a long process of time when all of these systems are dependent on each other to create the perfect balance for a human body to function. To put it another way, if just one part of any of these complete systems is missing (heart, liver, thyroid, intestines, etc.) all of the systems will fail. How does evolution account for this?

Answer: Wally...I work for the National Science Foundation, and I showed your question to one of our leading biologist. His basic answer was time. You take natural selection in which random chance makes slight differences which ends up make things better, and throw in a few billion years and you end up getting a better mouse trap. But, I suspect that won't' answer your question...so I'll post you my email address and give you his email address and he said he would be glad to discuss this with you in detail.

May I counter with a few quick thoughts of my own in this area? Why is it that males of almost every mammal species have nipples? Why would a God give males nipple if the reason to have nipples is solely to provide milk to offspring? Seems kind of useless doesn't it?

Next, take your arm, relax it, rest it on a table..look at your hand now...notice it is curled..why? Specifically, why are your fingers not laying straight out? Seems odd doesn't it? Can you explaiin it? I can, it's left over from the days when our ancestors slept in trees and needed to grip onto tree branches as they slept. Have fun explaining that one away!

Also...can you pls explain why some people to this day are born with tails? See: http://acidcow.com/p...ils-8-pics.html

War and peace? You are too funny...

Before I go on I want to get just a little personal here... Here's what I have picked up from you so far from reading your posts over the last few months (please correct where I am wrong): you have a Masters degree (think I read that before) or at least more than a Bachelors specializing in accounting/business/finance, you have interned at the Capitol, you are currently in New Zealand working with a science team (my guess is in some type of accounting capacity?).... and you're only 24? Hat's off to you.... you have led an impressive life so far and I'm honored you would take the time to debate with me for a bit. Especially considering you really have no idea who I am, and vice versa. I will admit to you, though, and you shouldn't be surprised by this, my sole purpose in doing this is to bring you as close to the Water as I can get you to see if you will take a drink.... Please don't be offended. I'm sure you would consider it a great a victory if, after awhile, I admitted you were right and threw down my faith... in order to pursue nirvana (At least I think so)... Okay, back to business!

First, you missed my point on the state of modern science, I think. My point in using Galileo was just because the majority believes something doesn't mean that they are correct. Let me start by saying I love science! I love engineering! I am fascinated by what makes things tick in a mechanical sense, even in the non-mechanical world. But, I think there is a lot of oppression that occurs towards people in the academic community who dissent from the popular views. If, for instance, a scientist were to come out and say they believed in Intelligent Design, if they weren't tenured they would be given their walking papers. There is a tremendous pressure in academia today, and especially in the sciences, to stay with the status quo. There are many, many instances in recent history where professors have been "laid off" for presenting ideas like Intelligent Design in the classroom.

I do agree with you that the majority in the science community are evolutionists.... But I think there are probably a lot more that support Intelligent Design than you think. Okay... point made. I'm an engineering/ science wonk and these are my thoughts. I am a Christian who is in love with science! Imagine that....

Okay, as far as your Biologist friend.... that is always the answer from Evolutioinists: time. But, as you stated before, that answer doesn't satisfy (me). Let me paint a picture here using natural selection:

You have a very simple organism that consists of only a cluster of a few living cells, to make it interesting I'll give our cluster the name Bert. So, as Bert is moving from childhood a strange phenomena begins to take place, Bert, unbenownst to him, has the beginnings of a liver growing inside of him. As he get's older the liver gets only a tiny bit bigger and then Bert dies. But before Bert died his cell cluster somehow miraculously replicated and Bert's offspring, Ray, has a somewhat larger beginning of a liver growing inside of him. And so on and so forth. Okay, here's the question: so what if you had massive amounts of time? As the liver got bigger over time what purpose would it serve Berts offspring other than to make it more difficult to move around because Bert's offspring is hauling around and using energy to grow this liver... Which would be totally unnecessary to Bert's offspring without a fully formed circulatory system, digestive system, endocrine system, etc. So, actually, without all of those other things a liver would actually be a detriment to Bert's cell cluster survival! Natural selection would have picked off Bert's offspring long before that liver was ever fully formed. And when you consider just how many functions the liver performs inside of the human body, it would have to take a very, very long time to mutate a liver. At least, that's how I see it.

Oh, and thank you for offering to put me in touch with your Bioligist friend. I am touched that you actually care enough to try and get me the right answers... so, again, thank you. But it wouldn't be the first time I debated a Biologist and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have anything new for me. I am interested in conversing with you....

As far as your nipples question: why do males have nipples? I can tell you why male humans have nipples: an enhanced sexual experience! What's wrong with that as a purpose? Look, I am a Christian, yes, but I also understand that sex is good. There is really nothing else like it. As a Christian my understanding is that God is the Author of sex and made it enjoyable! I don't have a problem with that.... I'm actually thankful!

Why do male animals have nipples? Here is how the Scientific Christian looks at it: when we look at all of life we see a lot of similarities. The vast majority of animals use eyes to see, ears to hear, and nostrils to smell, for instance. Many animals have vertebraes and spinal cords and hearts. Some animals are very similar, monkeys and orangutans, for instance. But so what? To a Christian it just means that God came up with a good design and used it on other animals as well as on humans. God gave monkeys arms to hang on trees and humans arms can perform the same function. I don't see a problem with that. A good design is a good design.

Okay, quick change of pace... It may surprise you but I believe in evolution... Yes, you read that right, I believe in evolution. But, I beleive only in horizontal evolution or, evolution WITHIN a species. In other words, I believe there are countless varieties of dogs because of processes of evolution, absolutely. There are short dogs, tall dogs, long haired, short haired, etc. And a lot of that has to do with natural selection, absolutely. Dogs with thicker hair who can live in colder regions may develop the ability to operate with a little blubber for more insulation. Dogs who live in the African wilderness may, over time, become lighter and faster and develop the ability to go longer without eating. But.... what I don't believe in is vertical evolution. To my knowledge I have never seen a dog become an ostrich... or a Brahma Bull. So, just to be clear: evolution WITHIN a species I agree with. Evolution into a completely different species, not so much. If it were true where all of the transitional species? The fossil record should be littered with them.

Okay, I have to go for now. I'll return later and finish responding to the other half of your post.

[imgesing]

+1 for the

I am sick and tired of some, who just can't be an Atheist

with out destroying the heritage of our country.

If you want to be an atheist, go for it.

I'm not going to stop you.

But don't let that cross bother you.

Don't let that Christmas tree offend you.

Don't deny me my prayer.

100% agree.

Why cant we tollerate one anothers beliefs and celebrate the differences and get along.

Why is it that everyone is out to distroy one another or blame or dismantle the spirit of others. It is incredible how many suffer or are made to suffer for some cause.

We are all in this together and as americans we need to cheerish the differences and accept them. I for one believe that the customs of in god we trust should be kept that way.

The only ones with any rights to change this are the AMERICAN INDIANS. The rest of us are privledged to be living in the land of the free based on the founding forefathers.

I wish each and every one of you who are in this investment happiness and health. I am proud to be an american in a country made up of all of us. SIncerely PEACE...

[WallyWeaver]

Actually Tiff., I am leaving my hotel early tomorrow morning, working a full day, and then beginning my migration back home. Please forgive me if I check out for a bit. I have to pack my room and have dinner still.... I may not be able to give this my full attention until this weekend.

I will do my best to answer the rest of your post in bits and pieces over the next few days.

WW.

[Markinsa]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=DHXAOcZOiII