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Exchanging Dinar for Gold-Does it Work?

ExecConsult

By ExecConsult,
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ExecConsult Newbie

ExecConsult

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I typed this in a hurry so I apologize ahead of time for spelling and grammatical errors. :)

Many of us have heard an interview (or other people refer to the interview) where Ali of Dinar trade says that he will exchange Gold for Dinar and that he won’t have to fill out a FinCEN 104. I have had some people indicate to me that their understanding of this transaction is that there will be no tax on the exchange. I listened to part of the interview where Ali was asked what part of the Internal Revenue Code supported his contention that there would be no taxes on this transaction and that taxes would not be due until the gold was sold. He said that as far as he knew there was not tax code related to it because it was a “barter” transaction and there was no tax on barter.

I wanted it to be true, but it didn’t fit anything I had learned about the IRC or regulations promulgated by the IRS to support it. However, I’m an estate planning attorney, not a tax attorney. I thought, “Maybe there is some little rule out there that I am just not aware of.” So, I looked for a way for what Ali said to be true. I failed. I can’t find a way for it to work the way Ali suggested. In fact, there is plenty of history and plenty of tax code relating to barter transactions and none of it escapes or differs taxes in any way. I will post here my understanding of how this type of transaction would work. I hope that someone can “show me” where I am wrong.

The basics I discovered are as follows:

When you (as an individual or business) engage in a barter transaction, you are required to report as income the value of the goods or services you received in the barter transaction. If you are a business and the person (or entity) with whom you bartered entered the barter transaction as a business, you are not exempted from your 1099 reporting requirements. (In other words, you need to send them a 1099 for the value of the goods or services they received from you and send that same information on to the IRS.)

If you exchange your Dinar for Gold, Ali is supposed to send you a 1099 for the value of the gold and you (if you did the exchange through a US business) are supposed to 1099 Ali for the value of the Dinar.

If you are bartering appreciated assets (i.e. artwork, antiques, collectibles, IRAQI DINAR), you must report the gain on the income.

A couple of explanatory pages from the IRS on the topic follow: (the following links get messed up by the editor, so copy them into your browser and then remove the space after www.).

www. irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=188095,00.html

www. irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187904,00.html

Another thought I had was that maybe there was a way to look at this exchange as a like kind exchange under IRC 1031. However, that won’t work either. The IRS is a little relaxed when deciding if real estate is “like kind” property. However, they are much stricter about exchanges of personal property. For instance, a female cow is not “like” a male cow because they have different business purposes. A truck is not “like” a car. Even a gold coin whose value is determined by condition and rarity is not “like” another gold coin that has a value based on bullion weight, which is not “like” a coin that is currency having value based on exchange rates. Unfortunately, there is no way to say that paper non-functional currency notes are “like” gold regardless of what shape, size, or character it may take.

Here are some easy to understand links that may help you if you want more information on 1031 exchanges:

http://www.exeter1031.com/1031_exchange_revenue_ruling_79_143.aspx

http://www.natptax.com/2009likekindexamples.pdf

http://www.1031podcast.com/types-of-exchanges/1031-like-kind-exchange/

I know, I know – many have been relying on Ali’s words as if they were . . . well . . . gold. How could he have been wrong or led us astray? Well, he and I are both humans. One of us could just be wrong. He says he has tested it and it works. Getting away with it and having it be acceptable under the law are two very different things.

If you are like me, you understand that reading what others have to say about a topic is often not as good as getting it from the source. (i.e. IRS pub 525 pg. 33 says our income will be capital gains, but the source (section 988) has special rules applying to disposition of nonfunctional currency that make most of us have ordinary income. The publication was wrong.) I have included a link following that should assist you in researching the topic of taxes on barter transactions further.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=ecfr;cc=ecfr;sid=9179d49000a88dd7bb92ce076b10bafc;idno=26;region=DIV1;q1=barter;rgn=Full%20text;view=reslist;start=1;size=25

Best of Blessings,

Mark

Edited by ExecConsult
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earjockey Newbie

earjockey

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Here is the information I found that seems to support the barter idea reported by Ali:

http://www.irs.gov/b...small/article/0,,id=188094,00.html

The key term is "barter exchange" and the following link has more information that seems to pertain to transactions between individuals and businesses rather than B2B:

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=113437,00.html

Our ridiculous government should really just sum up their policy with the statement:

"We are not required to make our policies understood, just send us all your money. If you make us explain our policies or ask for your money then we will not only take your money we will send you to jail for inconveniencing us."

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Freedom Fighter Newbie

Freedom Fighter

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Does the following statement allow us to opt out of 988 therefore not taxed as ordinary income but capital gains????

However, most traders/investors can opt out of the Section 988 election of treating forex trades in that method. The IRS taxes qualifying trades according to Section 1256 laws (see Section 2). Trades on forex over-the-counter (OTC) options do not qualify for Section 1256 tax laws. As of 2010, IRS regulations require traders to opt out of Section 988 by filling out a form at the beginning of the tax year before they know whether they have a profit or loss. Rather than filing the form with the IRS, however, taxpayers file it internally---in other words, in their personal records.

Read more: Foreign Currency Trading & Tax Laws | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6930900_foreign-currency-trading-tax-laws.html#ixzz14ZuGoRCV

Continued disscussion:

Section 1256

•Profitable traders prefer the more favorable tax treatment of capital gains and losses on foreign currency exchange trades in major currencies under Section 1256(g). The IRS gives lower tax rates under that section, so it reduces these traders' taxes on trading profits. IRS taxes apply to only 40 percent of any short-term capital gain or loss and 60 percent of any long-term capital gain or loss. Report profit or loss on Form 6781 as "cash forex elected out of IRC 988," according to tax experts Green & Company Inc.

In addition, traders using Section 1256 can take a three-year carryback on losses against profits for the prior three years on profits and losses declared under Section 1256.

Background

•The confusion on IRS tax laws on foreign currency exchange trading stems from the lack of one uniform law to govern forex trading. Sections 1256 and 988 have some conflicts because different IRS groups wrote those sections in different decades, according to Green & Company.

Read more: Foreign Currency Trading & Tax Laws | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6930900_foreign-currency-trading-tax-laws.html#ixzz14ZvG3ZVD

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pamela Newbie

pamela

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In Ali's printed instructions is the form FinCEN 104 which you are to fill out and bring in with you. If you don't have the form at the time of your appointment, he will provide one. So, as I understand it, he will be filing the FinCEN 104 as required.

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LittleMissGrits Newbie

LittleMissGrits

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In Ali's printed instructions is the form FinCEN 104 which you are to fill out and bring in with you. If you don't have the form at the time of your appointment, he will provide one. So, as I understand it, he will be filing the FinCEN 104 as required.

I may be wrong, but I do not think there will be a FinCen 104 if you exchange dinar for gold. That is the thing with buying/selling gold and silver. There is no record when you buy or sell it. In the past there has been no way to record gains or losses, no paperwork there. I do think there is now a provision in the new health care bill, of all places, that indicates that gold will be taxed in 2012 (I THINK that is the year). If gold and silver gains have always been taxed, then why make a new law to tax it?

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ExecConsult Newbie

ExecConsult

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Here is the information I found that seems to support the barter idea reported by Ali:

http://www.irs.gov/b...small/article/0,,id=188094,00.html

The key term is "barter exchange" and the following link has more information that seems to pertain to transactions between individuals and businesses rather than B2B:

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=113437,00.html

Our ridiculous government should really just sum up their policy with the statement:

"We are not required to make our policies understood, just send us all your money. If you make us explain our policies or ask for your money then we will not only take your money we will send you to jail for inconveniencing us."

earjockey - A "Barter Exchange" is a business set up to facilitate the bartering of other businesses or individuals. When bartering through an exchange, the barter exchange is required to send a 1099-B to the companies receiving services. Many exchanges allow you to earn credits on their exchange when you provide services for someone else. You spend those credits when you want something that another exchange member can provide. Get this!! If you are bartering through an exchange, you don't even get to wait until you receive a product or service before you are taxed. You are taxed on the value of the credits you have received whether or not you spent them for any actual services. If the Barter Exchange does not send you a 1099-B in the year you received value for the products or services you provided, they receive some stiff penalties.

About our "ridiculous government," I could not agree more. I am for a MAJOR overhaul in the tax code (like burn it and start over). I'd love to see the "Fair Tax" or some version of a similar sales tax implemented and dispose of income tax altogether. Just my $.02

Best of Blessings,

Mark

Does the following statement allow us to opt out of 988 therefore not taxed as ordinary income but capital gains????

However, most traders/investors can opt out of the Section 988 election of treating forex trades in that method. The IRS taxes qualifying trades according to Section 1256 laws (see Section 2). Trades on forex over-the-counter (OTC) options do not qualify for Section 1256 tax laws. As of 2010, IRS regulations require traders to opt out of Section 988 by filling out a form at the beginning of the tax year before they know whether they have a profit or loss. Rather than filing the form with the IRS, however, taxpayers file it internally---in other words, in their personal records.

Read more: Foreign Currency Trading & Tax Laws | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6930900_foreign-currency-trading-tax-laws.html#ixzz14ZuGoRCV

Continued disscussion:

Section 1256

•Profitable traders prefer the more favorable tax treatment of capital gains and losses on foreign currency exchange trades in major currencies under Section 1256(g). The IRS gives lower tax rates under that section, so it reduces these traders' taxes on trading profits. IRS taxes apply to only 40 percent of any short-term capital gain or loss and 60 percent of any long-term capital gain or loss. Report profit or loss on Form 6781 as "cash forex elected out of IRC 988," according to tax experts Green & Company Inc.

In addition, traders using Section 1256 can take a three-year carryback on losses against profits for the prior three years on profits and losses declared under Section 1256.

Background

•The confusion on IRS tax laws on foreign currency exchange trading stems from the lack of one uniform law to govern forex trading. Sections 1256 and 988 have some conflicts because different IRS groups wrote those sections in different decades, according to Green & Company.

Read more: Foreign Currency Trading & Tax Laws | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6930900_foreign-currency-trading-tax-laws.html#ixzz14ZvG3ZVD

The short answer is that an exchange in Dinar does not qualify for section 1256 treatment. For the long answer see my prior topic "Dinar Taxes-Attorney Breaks It Down." You can find it here:

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ExecConsult Newbie

ExecConsult

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I have talked with my CPA about IQD to gold I was told that converting IQD for gold ,silver ,ect is a comadty trade and is not taxed at time of trade but will be taxed when you sell your gold

Tony,

Did your CPA tell you what part of the code he/she was referring to in making the determination that this would be a commodity trade? Did he/she tell you what part of the code would allow the commodity trade to defer the taxes until the sale of the gold?

I hate to have people proceed in a direction just because "my CPA said so." I would love to have something to back up that assertion.

I have looked for any information that I could find indicating that this would be a commodity trade and I can't find it. I wonder if your CPA was thinking of section 1256 transactions. Section 1256 transactions are commodities trades. However that only relates to "contracts traded on regular exchanges." A transaction for a contract in Dinar would not qualify for 1256 and a transaction in physical Dinar is even further removed from section 1256 treatment. Even though contracts for gold (not the physical gold itself) are commodities that qualify for section 1256 treatment, I can't find anything that would allow for the entire transaction to be governed this way simply because one part could be. Further, even if you could qualify it under section 1256, I still can't find anything that would allow the deferral of taxes until after the sale of the gold.

Readers may think, ". . . well they guys CPA said so. Who is he to go against the CPA?" Generally I would agree with them. I am not a CPA and do not claim to be nearly as qualified as your CPA. However, I was qualified to sit the CPA exam at one point and my line of work keeps me engaged in the tax code fairly regularly. So, when the things a CPA or another attorney says goes against what I understood to be true and when upon research I still can't find anything to support the other professional's opinion, I have to be careful and skeptical.

I would LOVE (as would lots of others on here) to know the reasoning behind your CPA's statement. If ANYONE has support for the CPA's statement to overcome what my research has shown, PLEASE respond to this post.

Best of Blessings,

Mark

How do we make the proper election to opt out???

IRC §988 items can be taxed under IRC §1256 for "60/40" capital gains & losses if the proper election is made.

for certain hedge funds defined under under §988©(1)(E)(iii) this results in special §1256 "0/100" capital gains & losses.

Opting out is done only in internal documents of a business making the election. (i.e. a note in corporate minutes) It is supposed to be done prior to entering into the transaction to begin with. However, we can't use it. See my answer to your previous post.

Best of Blessings,

Mark

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ExecConsult Newbie

ExecConsult

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I was understanding it was an exchange....never moving into USD

Doesn't need to move into USD to be taxable. See my response to earjockey above. In fact one case I had in law school would illustrate this. A guy buys a house. He finds a very expensive shotgun hidden in the wall of the house. The court found that the shotgun was taxable income. (They will get you any possible way they can. I'm for repeal of the current income tax structure. But then where would all the IRS agents necessary to support it find jobs?)

Best of Blessings,

Mark

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Mongo Newbie

Mongo

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Doesn't need to move into USD to be taxable. See my response to earjockey above. In fact one case I had in law school would illustrate this. A guy buys a house. He finds a very expensive shotgun hidden in the wall of the house. The court found that the shotgun was taxable income. (They will get you any possible way they can. I'm for repeal of the current income tax structure. biggrin.gifBut then where would all the IRS agents necessary to support it find jobs?)

Best of Blessings,

Mark

The economy would be booming with no IRS and a 8% flat tax rate....send them to tech school ( ditch diggers )biggrin.gif

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earjockey Newbie

earjockey

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Mark: Thank you for the effort and the posting.

I wonder where Ali's attorneys/cpas are finding the legal bases for their strategies? I do know this, there are some very favorable and more lax treatment of precious metals when transporting them offshore. Gold bullion (not coinage) is specifically not considered a monetary instrument requiring customs reporting. Consultants warn this knowledge is not always known by zealous customs agents and could still result in the confiscation of precious metals moving through passenger portals to overseas venues. I investigated moving 900 lbs of gold overseas with a company that specializes in the transportation of precious metal in bullion/bulk form and found the only report that was required was a commodities import/export report that carries with it the protection of specific privacy laws that prohibits disclosure beyond the Census Bureau which tracks the movement of commodities in and out of the country.

So a "successful plan" to exchange IQD for gold and then move it out of the country without IRS reporting pivots on this exchange question of it being a taxable event. If Ali's information allowing an exchange without a report to the IRS is incorrect you may find taxes will be owned on gold being held offshore in the best case scenario and in the worst case scenario a very messy customs confiscation of unreported assets. I am not an attorney (even though I did stay at a Holiday Inn once) but this reeks of hazard. If we could get some clarification from Ali regarding the legal bases of his opinion regarding this. In any case I would recommend that a professional shipper of these precious metal commodities be used whenever they are moved from one place to another, especially offshore. Today there are many people who believe that their exchange is unreported and they plan to load their travel bags with bullion and move it through airline customs on its way to a safe offshore haven.

Hopefully we can get Adam to pull some strings to get some clarification regarding the reporting/taxable consequence of these exchanges. Thanks

earjockey - A "Barter Exchange" is a business set up to facilitate the bartering of other businesses or individuals. When bartering through an exchange, the barter exchange is required to send a 1099-B to the companies receiving services. Many exchanges allow you to earn credits on their exchange when you provide services for someone else. You spend those credits when you want something that another exchange member can provide. Get this!! If you are bartering through an exchange, you don't even get to wait until you receive a product or service before you are taxed. You are taxed on the value of the credits you have received whether or not you spent them for any actual services. If the Barter Exchange does not send you a 1099-B in the year you received value for the products or services you provided, they receive some stiff penalties.

About our "ridiculous government," I could not agree more. I am for a MAJOR overhaul in the tax code (like burn it and start over). I'd love to see the "Fair Tax" or some version of a similar sales tax implemented and dispose of income tax altogether. Just my $.02

Best of Blessings,

Mark

The short answer is that an exchange in Dinar does not qualify for section 1256 treatment. For the long answer see my prior topic "Dinar Taxes-Attorney Breaks It Down." You can find it here:

http://dinarvets.com...breaks-it-down/

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ExecConsult Newbie

ExecConsult

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Followed up on this post through IRS friend who referred to "foreign examiner" in the IRS - they could not find anything that would allow a tax free exchange. They also pointed me to clarification in their regulations for section 988 (having to do with disposition of "nonfunctional" (= foreign) currency). It was a clarification that you can't put the exchange under a like kind exchange because one currency will not even be the same as a different currency. There is no way it would be "like kind" with gold.

For what it's worth - I'd like to know what Ali's attorney's were thinking (if they were thinking on this topic) I'd also still like to know what Tony's CPA was thinking. I just can't find a way to make it work.

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hardmoney1 Newbie

hardmoney1

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I typed this in a hurry so I apologize ahead of time for spelling and grammatical errors. smile.gif

Many of us have heard an interview (or other people refer to the interview) where Ali of Dinar trade says that he will exchange Gold for Dinar and that he won’t have to fill out a FinCEN 104. I have had some people indicate to me that their understanding of this transaction is that there will be no tax on the exchange. I listened to part of the interview where Ali was asked what part of the Internal Revenue Code supported his contention that there would be no taxes on this transaction and that taxes would not be due until the gold was sold. He said that as far as he knew there was not tax code related to it because it was a “barter” transaction and there was no tax on barter.

I wanted it to be true, but it didn’t fit anything I had learned about the IRC or regulations promulgated by the IRS to support it. However, I’m an estate planning attorney, not a tax attorney. I thought, “Maybe there is some little rule out there that I am just not aware of.” So, I looked for a way for what Ali said to be true. I failed. I can’t find a way for it to work the way Ali suggested. In fact, there is plenty of history and plenty of tax code relating to barter transactions and none of it escapes or differs taxes in any way. I will post here my understanding of how this type of transaction would work. I hope that someone can “show me” where I am wrong.

The basics I discovered are as follows:

When you (as an individual or business) engage in a barter transaction, you are required to report as income the value of the goods or services you received in the barter transaction. If you are a business and the person (or entity) with whom you bartered entered the barter transaction as a business, you are not exempted from your 1099 reporting requirements. (In other words, you need to send them a 1099 for the value of the goods or services they received from you and send that same information on to the IRS.)

If you exchange your Dinar for Gold, Ali is supposed to send you a 1099 for the value of the gold and you (if you did the exchange through a US business) are supposed to 1099 Ali for the value of the Dinar.

If you are bartering appreciated assets (i.e. artwork, antiques, collectibles, IRAQI DINAR), you must report the gain on the income.

A couple of explanatory pages from the IRS on the topic follow: (the following links get messed up by the editor, so copy them into your browser and then remove the space after www.).

www. irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=188095,00.html

www. irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187904,00.html

Another thought I had was that maybe there was a way to look at this exchange as a like kind exchange under IRC 1031. However, that won’t work either. The IRS is a little relaxed when deciding if real estate is “like kind” property. However, they are much stricter about exchanges of personal property. For instance, a female cow is not “like” a male cow because they have different business purposes. A truck is not “like” a car. Even a gold coin whose value is determined by condition and rarity is not “like” another gold coin that has a value based on bullion weight, which is not “like” a coin that is currency having value based on exchange rates. Unfortunately, there is no way to say that paper non-functional currency notes are “like” gold regardless of what shape, size, or character it may take.

Here are some easy to understand links that may help you if you want more information on 1031 exchanges:

http://www.exeter103...ing_79_143.aspx

http://www.natptax.c...indexamples.pdf

http://www.1031podca...-kind-exchange/

I know, I know – many have been relying on Ali’s words as if they were . . . well . . . gold. How could he have been wrong or led us astray? Well, he and I are both humans. One of us could just be wrong. He says he has tested it and it works. Getting away with it and having it be acceptable under the law are two very different things.

If you are like me, you understand that reading what others have to say about a topic is often not as good as getting it from the source. (i.e. IRS pub 525 pg. 33 says our income will be capital gains, but the source (section 988) has special rules applying to disposition of nonfunctional currency that make most of us have ordinary income. The publication was wrong.) I have included a link following that should assist you in researching the topic of taxes on barter transactions further.

http://ecfr.gpoacces...start=1;size=25

Best of Blessings,

Mark

Mark,

My question in the Dinar for Gold transaction is this - The gold IS LEGAL TENDER, and a one ounce coin is $50 legal tender. Though its commodity value is $1300 +, the legal tender is $50. This is how our 8200 tons of gold is valued, by our government at near $44 per ounce.

Where would my thinking be wrong in exchanging Dinar for US Legal Tender, but in the form of GOLD Eagles, at the FACE VALUE of the coin, as stamped by the US GOVERNMENT??? If the RV was $1 Dinar for $1 USD, then I could get $1,000,000 (USD VALUE), and dividing that by $1300 at today's gold value, get 769 gold US Eagles. The Dealer would report $50 (Legal Tender Face Value) x 769 Pieces = $38,450.00 LEGAL TENDER OF US DOLLARS.

My tax burden would then be $38,500.00-$1100 (basis)=$37,500.00

Do you think I would stay out of an Orange Jump Suit by doing this???

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ExecConsult Newbie

ExecConsult

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Mark,

My question in the Dinar for Gold transaction is this - The gold IS LEGAL TENDER, and a one ounce coin is $50 legal tender. Though its commodity value is $1300 +, the legal tender is $50. This is how our 8200 tons of gold is valued, by our government at near $44 per ounce.

Where would my thinking be wrong in exchanging Dinar for US Legal Tender, but in the form of GOLD Eagles, at the FACE VALUE of the coin, as stamped by the US GOVERNMENT??? If the RV was $1 Dinar for $1 USD, then I could get $1,000,000 (USD VALUE), and dividing that by $1300 at today's gold value, get 769 gold US Eagles. The Dealer would report $50 (Legal Tender Face Value) x 769 Pieces = $38,450.00 LEGAL TENDER OF US DOLLARS.

My tax burden would then be $38,500.00-$1100 (basis)=$37,500.00

Do you think I would stay out of an Orange Jump Suit by doing this???

That is good thinking. However, the IRS is not happy with people who do this. In fact Robert Kahre was convicted (and his wife) for paying employees in gold eagles and playing fast and loose with the face value against the intrinsic value. Granted, what they were doing was a bit more. They actually had references in their books to both values of the coins (in the same set of books). Anyway, it is at least an indication that you should be very careful. I "personally" would not try it, but there are many people willing to accept more risk than me. One way to go about it would be to exchange for the gold eagles then seek a private letter ruling from the IRS about how your intended tax would be handled.

I wish I had more time to research the issue for you, bur right now I just don't.

Best of Blessings,

Mark

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hardmoney1 Newbie

hardmoney1

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That is good thinking. However, the IRS is not happy with people who do this. In fact Robert Kahre was convicted (and his wife) for paying employees in gold eagles and playing fast and loose with the face value against the intrinsic value. Granted, what they were doing was a bit more. They actually had references in their books to both values of the coins (in the same set of books). Anyway, it is at least an indication that you should be very careful. I "personally" would not try it, but there are many people willing to accept more risk than me. One way to go about it would be to exchange for the gold eagles then seek a private letter ruling from the IRS about how your intended tax would be handled.

I wish I had more time to research the issue for you, bur right now I just don't.

Best of Blessings,

Mark

Thanks for the reply. I have always wondered why the US Government stamped such a low value on the gold and silver coin.

In regard to your reply, when seeking a "private letter ruling" is that binding - meaning more than just keeping me out of trouble, but actually making the taxes what the letter said?

Thanks, again!!

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ExecConsult Newbie

ExecConsult

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Thanks for the reply. I have always wondered why the US Government stamped such a low value on the gold and silver coin.

In regard to your reply, when seeking a "private letter ruling" is that binding - meaning more than just keeping me out of trouble, but actually making the taxes what the letter said?

Thanks, again!!

Yes, I Private Letter Ruling (PLR) is binding on the IRS for you providing that you follow exactly what you claimed in the PLR request. It can not be used as precedent by anyone else.

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