The Prophet Muhammad

[Markinsa]

Really, after rereading your post I still cannot get your main point.

 

What questions or issues are you addressing?

 

Are you simply expressing your faith in Jesus?  

 

What does your post have to do with the biblically stated fact (in my previous post) that neither you nor any other Christian can be certain of salvation?

 

Or are you simply condemning the Jews for not believing in Him?

 

Seriously.....

 

Dude, That's Romans 10, that is scripture.  You are confusing people with your opinions. You are basically doing the same thing the Jews did back then, requiring circumcision as a requirement for salvation so to speak.  I've presented God's Word so others can see what he has to say about their salvation. You disagree with Romans 10, your argument is with God, not me.

 

---

Isaiah 55 (NLT)

Invitation to the Lord’s Salvation

55 “Is anyone thirsty?

    Come and drink—

    even if you have no money!

Come, take your choice of wine or milk—

    it’s all free!

² Why spend your money on food that does not give you strength?

    Why pay for food that does you no good?

Listen to me, and you will eat what is good.

    You will enjoy the finest food.

³ “Come to me with your ears wide open.

    Listen, and you will find life.

I will make an everlasting covenant with you.

    I will give you all the unfailing love I promised to David.

⁴ See how I used him to display my power among the peoples.

    I made him a leader among the nations.

⁵ You also will command nations you do not know,

    and peoples unknown to you will come running to obey,

because I, the Lord your God,

    the Holy One of Israel, have made you glorious.”

⁶ Seek the Lord while you can find him.

    Call on him now while he is near.

⁷ Let the wicked change their ways

    and banish the very thought of doing wrong.

Let them turn to the Lord that he may have mercy on them.

    Yes, turn to our God, for he will forgive generously.

⁸ “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord.

    “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.

⁹ For just as the heavens are higher than the earth,

    so my ways are higher than your ways

    and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.

¹⁰ “The rain and snow come down from the heavens

    and stay on the ground to water the earth.

They cause the grain to grow,

    producing seed for the farmer

    and bread for the hungry.

¹¹ It is the same with my word.

    I send it out, and it always produces fruit.

It will accomplish all I want it to,

    and it will prosper everywhere I send it.

¹² You will live in joy and peace.

    The mountains and hills will burst into song,

    and the trees of the field will clap their hands!

¹³ Where once there were thorns, cypress trees will grow.

    Where nettles grew, myrtles will sprout up.

These events will bring great honor to the Lord’s name;

    they will be an everlasting sign of his power and love.”

 

---

 

Praise God!

 

-

[waterman13]

Love it, Preach it guys, God's Word does not return void, someone will "hear". God open their ears, in Jesus' name Lord God.

WM13

[Nelg]

Nelg, I appreciate not only the nature of this conversation but the sincerity of your words. You must know, however, that you are at a disadvantage, because I am intentionally not informing you of the scale and scope of my personally beliefs. This forum is not the place for that kind of extensive dialogue. However, as you can see, I can state my perceptions and opinions of yours. 

I have no problem with your concealing your personal beliefs.  I would state the same understanding I have of what the Bible says no matter your position.  Frankly, you are revealing your beliefs and perceptions with each post.  They are not any different from many others on these forums. 

 

I will say, however, that my beliefs begin with the impossibility of any human being able to comprehend the reality of Jesus, let alone God and the Holy Spirit. And they end with the fact that any attempts to base one's faith on a personal 'understanding' of the Holy Bible is fraught with both peril and the already proven possibility of error.

If I understand correctly what you just said is that you have a “inside track” in understanding the Scriptures that no one else has. And, you have place yourself in the position of “knowing” that no one can understand Christ or the way of salvation for man.  That position assumes a state of “knowing” beyond the rest of us.  I find that position rather arrogant and condescending. 

Paul was able to understand the “mystery of Christ” by the revelation of the Spirit.  He wrote down that “mystery” so that his readers could understand what he knew.  I am one of those readers.  Now either Paul was wrong and did not understand what the Spirit was teaching, and those writings give of no understand, or it was correct and we can understand the mysteries of Christ.  I will hold to the latter. 

To state that no one can understand the Bible is an affront to biblical scholarship.  There are many passages “which are hard to understand,” but they can be understood.  What is really dangerous is for a student of the Bible to allow someone that is a so-called expert to interpret the Bible for him or her.  Dangerous indeed.  Each one of us must search the Scripture.  

 

As proof, there is only ONE Holy Bible just as there is only ONE true Church. Yet, again, there are not only over 40,000 exegetically distinctive Christian sects, each one claims 'true' knowledge of the Bible’s contents. I am not judging, but you and your 'denomination' are also complicit. 

Since you also have an opinion, then you would also be one of the “denominations” and “exegetically distinctive . . . sects” in this group of 40K?  Is that what you are saying? 

Certainly I believe there is but ONE Bible and only ONE true Church.  I have stated this before.  I an not a Catholic, Protestant, Jew, I am only a Christian and part of the true Church, the body of Christ.  Am I incorrect on some interpretations of Scripture?  Very possible.  But this does not keep me from believing the fundamental things I know are correct . . . because of what the Scriptures clearly state. 

 

IMHO, there are at least four fundamental reasons for this highly confused state of Christianity. I must admit that I can't help but place you among them:

1. The human mind is and will always be inherently limited in its attempts to understand the ways and reality of its Creator -- the Father. Therefore, it can't fully comprehend the reality of the one whom He sent -- Jesus. Those limitations also apply to Christian (and Jewish) understandings of Abraham, Moses and all the Old Testament prophets. 

There are many things about God that the humans cannot understand.  If we understood everything about God we would have all the knowledge of God.  We can, however, understand enough about Him that we can establish a relationship as adopted sons and daughters.  I could not worship a being that I understood completely. 

Concerning Abraham, Moses and the OT prophets, we can know them as they are revealed in Scripture. 

 

2. Generally speaking, Christians have not accepted these innate limitations. With an arrogance that only human beings can display, we have constructed theologies and ideologies and proclaimed them the reality of God and Jesus. Despite the many relevant hard lessons within the Holy Bible that warn us against such pride, and despite Jesus saying “In my Father’s house are many mansions…”, we still believe that we KNOW how God and His self-identified Son view those who are not Christian. You, Nelg, have also made this mistake. This leads to the next point.

How those who disbelieve are view by God is revealed in the Bible, usually by the words of Jesus and the Spirit.  There is no mistaking the words of Jesus when He states, “Unless you believe that I am He you shall die in your sins.”  Certainly He love those who were rejecting Him, but He had given them abundant evidence for them to know and accept Him as the Son of God, God in the flesh, but they were refusing to believe.  Why is that so difficult to understand? 

I would like to know your interpretation about what are to whom Jesus was referring with the statement about “many mansions.”  Elucidate if you will?

And, what mistake have I made? 

3. There are many things in the Holy Bible that simply cannot be comprehended, because the Books are sealed. Do you believe this?  It’s possible, but, so far, your words do not indicate that you do. But if the Holy Bible is true (I believe it is) then the realm of Christianity, germanely, is in a prideful state when its actual true state is one of helplessness and, therefore, totally dependent upon God’s incomprehensible mercy, grace and compassion. 

No, I do not believe that any of the Bible books are sealed.  Why do make such a statement?  Do you have a list of those sealed books? 

That Christianity is full of prideful people, I would agree.  But for the most part saints of God are totally dependent upon the Lord, and nothing is received without His mercy and grace.  But that mercy and grace has been given through Christ.  To state that we cannot participate in His mercy and grace is challenging His extension of love to us.  Certainly if He offers mercy and grace, which He has in Christ, to us then we can accept it by faith and obedience.  I don’t think you would dare place a limit to what God will do when He states that He has do so.  Otherwise you would be trying to place limits where God has not place limits, and extended mercy to those who have rejected Christ. 

 

4. All of the above is generally rejected by Christian scholars. Most still claim to know what the prophecies mean, despite the books being sealed. This proves that the below prophecy has also been fulfilled, among others:

 Luke 21:34-36

“And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

“For as a snare shall it come on ALL them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

“Watch ye therefore, and pray always…”

Which books are sealed? 

The passage, Luke 21:34-36, was fulfilled before the generation to whom Christ spoke, passed away (21:32).  His words were answering question the disciples ask concerning the destruction of the temple and the coming of the kingdom of God (21:5-7).  The kingdom of God was established on Pentecost and is still in existence.  The “coming of the Son of Man in the cloud with power and glory” happens anytime He comes in judgment on the kingdoms of this world.  It happened many times in the OT (Assyria, Babylon, etc.) and at this time He stated that He is coming to judge Israel and Jerusalem for their sin of rejecting Him.  It was about to take place (21:36) and that judgment took place in 70 a.d.  There was nothing “sealed” about this prophecy by our Lord. 

To say that “no one knows” about the meaning of this particular prophecy, because it is sealed, is to declare that you know the meaning.  At least this is what you have implied.  To say that everyone else is wrong means that you know the right interpretation.  If you do, tell us?  But of course “it is sealed” from everyone?  Don’t think so since the fulfillment is part of known history. 

 

 

Nelg, I will address your understanding of the Church and its 'violence' in another post.

 

Thanks

 

Peace.  I'm interested as to what you have to say about "my understanding of the Church." Really didn't know you could read minds. LOL.  

[Wayfarer]

 

Dude, That's Romans 10, that is scripture.  You are confusing people with your opinions. You are basically doing the same thing the Jews did back then, requiring circumcision as a requirement for salvation so to speak.  I've presented God's Word so others can see what he has to say about their salvation. You disagree with Romans 10, your argument is with God, not me.

 

---

Isaiah 55 (NLT)

Invitation to the Lord’s Salvation

55 “Is anyone thirsty?

    Come and drink—

    even if you have no money!

Come, take your choice of wine or milk—

    it’s all free!

² Why spend your money on food that does not give you strength?

    Why pay for food that does you no good?

Listen to me, and you will eat what is good.

    You will enjoy the finest food.

³ “Come to me with your ears wide open.

    Listen, and you will find life.

I will make an everlasting covenant with you.

    I will give you all the unfailing love I promised to David.

⁴ See how I used him to display my power among the peoples.

    I made him a leader among the nations.

⁵ You also will command nations you do not know,

    and peoples unknown to you will come running to obey,

because I, the Lord your God,

    the Holy One of Israel, have made you glorious.”

⁶ Seek the Lord while you can find him.

    Call on him now while he is near.

⁷ Let the wicked change their ways

    and banish the very thought of doing wrong.

Let them turn to the Lord that he may have mercy on them.

    Yes, turn to our God, for he will forgive generously.

⁸ “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord.

    “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.

⁹ For just as the heavens are higher than the earth,

    so my ways are higher than your ways

    and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.

¹⁰ “The rain and snow come down from the heavens

    and stay on the ground to water the earth.

They cause the grain to grow,

    producing seed for the farmer

    and bread for the hungry.

¹¹ It is the same with my word.

    I send it out, and it always produces fruit.

It will accomplish all I want it to,

    and it will prosper everywhere I send it.

¹² You will live in joy and peace.

    The mountains and hills will burst into song,

    and the trees of the field will clap their hands!

¹³ Where once there were thorns, cypress trees will grow.

    Where nettles grew, myrtles will sprout up.

These events will bring great honor to the Lord’s name;

    they will be an everlasting sign of his power and love.”

 

---

 

Praise God!

 

-

 

Markinsa, you posted Romans 10 in the middle of a conversation. This 'dude' was simply inquiring why and what relevance it had.

 

As for your not being able to understand.....well that's not anybody's fault but yours. Try to keep up, my friend.

[Markinsa]

Markinsa, you posted Romans 10 in the middle of a conversation. This 'dude' was simply inquiring why and what relevance it had.

 

As for your not being able to understand.....well that's not anybody's fault but yours. Try to keep up, my friend.

 

Please forgive me, and tell me what I must do in order to inherit the Kingdom of God? Luke 18:11

 

-

[Wayfarer]

I have no problem with your concealing your personal beliefs.  I would state the same understanding I have of what the Bible says no matter your position.  Frankly, you are revealing your beliefs and perceptions with each post.  They are not any different from many others on these forums. 

 

Thanks for understanding. Truth is not divisive. Much can be imparted through civil conversation. And it's good to know that others here share similar beliefs.

 

If I understand correctly what you just said is that you have a “inside track” in understanding the Scriptures that no one else has.

And, you have place yourself in the position of “knowing” that no one can understand Christ or the way of salvation for man.  That position assumes a state of “knowing” beyond the rest of us.  I find that position rather arrogant and condescending. 

 

I totally agree. It would be both arrogant and condescending for anyone to either posit or personify having an 'inside track". Such a person would also be cast out of any civil venue. But if you read my words carefully, I never made any such pretension. Nor do I claim any 'secret' knowledge. Again, I have been simply responding to your words and the nature of your beliefs. Yes, in doing so I have also been revealing portions of my own.

 

Paul was able to understand the “mystery of Christ” by the revelation of the Spirit.  He wrote down that “mystery” so that his readers could understand what he knew.  I am one of those readers.  Now either Paul was wrong and did not understand what the Spirit was teaching, and those writings give of no understand, or it was correct and we can understand the mysteries of Christ.  I will hold to the latter. 

 

No, Paul was not wrong. How could he be? Yes, there were arguments between him and other Disciples, because some of his views went counter to those of the others who were also being taught by the Holy Spirit. Even now, there are theological debates concerning the efficacy of Pauline doctrines and how it effected the course of Christianity. But none of us were there in the beginning; not every word was recorded. Yet, we all should exhibit Paul's zeal.   

 

To state that no one can understand the Bible is an affront to biblical scholarship.  There are many passages “which are hard to understand,” but they can be understood.  What is really dangerous is for a student of the Bible to allow someone that is a so-called expert to interpret the Bible for him or her.  Dangerous indeed.  Each one of us must search the Scripture. 

 

Ahhhhh... now we are directly addressing the central issue I raised.  But it's not difficult to defend. The Jews could not accept Jesus for the primary reason that He did not fulfill the prophecies...as they 'understood' them. I am speaking of their most erudite scholars. If God is the same yesterday, today and forever, then it logically follows that there are also scriptures and prophecies meanings in the New Testament with many meanings which believers in Jesus are getting wrong. Therefore, my words were not an "affront" to biblical scholarship. As for "What is really dangerous...", preachers and clergy have been sought out and respected for their understanding of the Holy Bible for almost 2,000 years. All along, they have been considered the experts, just like the Pharisees and Sadducees. Could this be the primary reason for our 40+ thousand sects? 

 

As proof, there is only ONE Holy Bible just as there is only ONE true Church. Yet, again, there are not only over 40,000 exegetically distinctive Christian sects, each one claims 'true' knowledge of the Bible’s contents. I am not judging, but you and your 'denomination' are also complicit. 

Since you also have an opinion, then you would also be one of the “denominations” and “exegetically distinctive . . . sects” in this group of 40K?  Is that what you are saying? 

 

Perhaps.

 

Certainly I believe there is but ONE Bible and only ONE true Church.  I have stated this before.  I an not a Catholic, Protestant, Jew, I am only a Christian and part of the true Church, the body of Christ.  Am I incorrect on some interpretations of Scripture? Very possible.  But this does not keep me from believing the fundamental things I know are correct . . . because of what the Scriptures clearly state. 

 

As I stated before, this is the 'humility' I detect in you. I honestly believe that this is the proper and only orientation one can have vis-à-vis not only God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit but even the Holy Bible.

 

 

IMHO, there are at least four fundamental reasons for this highly confused state of Christianity. I must admit that I can't help but place you among them:

1. The human mind is and will always be inherently limited in its attempts to understand the ways and reality of its Creator -- the Father. Therefore, it can't fully comprehend the reality of the one whom He sent -- Jesus. Those limitations also apply to Christian (and Jewish) understandings of Abraham, Moses and all the Old Testament prophets. 

There are many things about God that the humans cannot understand.  If we understood everything about God we would have all the knowledge of God.  We can, however, understand enough about Him that we can establish a relationship as adopted sons and daughters.  I could not worship a being that I understood completely. 

 

Excellent, except for the 'adopted' part. God wants us to worship Him, IMHO. Otherwise, I totally agree.

 

Concerning Abraham, Moses and the OT prophets, we can know them as they are revealed in Scripture. 

 

Is that literally, figuratively or exegetically? Because, as a Christian, I was once taught that Jesus was 'superior' to Moses; Moses supposedly sinned before God at the rock. Only later did I discover that Moses assumed responsibility for the sins of His people. In other words, the sin was on them, not Him. Just as Jesus bore the sins of mankind. Do you agree?

 

2. Generally speaking, Christians have not accepted these innate limitations. With an arrogance that only human beings can display, we have constructed theologies and ideologies and proclaimed them the reality of God and Jesus. Despite the many relevant hard lessons within the Holy Bible that warn us against such pride, and despite Jesus saying “In my Father’s house are many mansions…”, we still believe that we KNOW how God and His self-identified Son view those who are not Christian. You, Nelg, have also made this mistake. This leads to the next point.

How those who disbelieve are view by God is revealed in the Bible, usually by the words of Jesus and the Spirit.  There is no mistaking the words of Jesus when He states, “Unless you believe that I am He you shall die in your sins.”  Certainly He love those who were rejecting Him, but He had given them abundant evidence for them to know and accept Him as the Son of God, God in the flesh, but they were refusing to believe.  Why is that so difficult to understand? 

 

It's not difficult at all to understand. But that's never been the issue, at least as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I've stated that Jesus is considerably more than what's commonly believed, as well as God. Even more than the Gospels could convey. This belief forms the basis of my comments.

 

I would like to know your interpretation about what are to whom Jesus was referring with the statement about “many mansions.”  Elucidate if you will?

 

These words, when conjoined with "Other sheep I have..." further elucidate "For God so loved the world..." I have no way to prove it, but I believe His disciples understood the universality of Jesus as the Christ. There is none other.  

 

And, what mistake have I made? 

 

IMO, your mistake is judging others through your words. Many people have been led astray by their pastors, by their love of social traditions, or simply due to their own ignorance. You, most of all, know that we must still love them, even if they belong to an apostate church (whatever that is). The church is less important as the people within it.

 

3. There are many things in the Holy Bible that simply cannot be comprehended, because the Books are sealed. Do you believe this?  It’s possible, but, so far, your words do not indicate that you do. But if the Holy Bible is true (I believe it is) then the realm of Christianity, germanely, is in a prideful state when its actual true state is one of helplessness and, therefore, totally dependent upon God’s incomprehensible mercy, grace and compassion. 

No, I do not believe that any of the Bible books are sealed.  Why do make such a statement?  Do you have a list of those sealed books? 

 

You already know them. If you don't, do a word search using "seal". Daniel, Revelation, etc.

 

That Christianity is full of prideful people, I would agree.  But for the most part saints of God are totally dependent upon the Lord, and nothing is received without His mercy and grace.  But that mercy and grace has been given through Christ. 

 

YES YES YES!  AGREED AGREED AGREED!!!

 

To state that we cannot participate in His mercy and grace is challenging His extension of love to us. 

 

Where did you get that? I never even inferred it. Besides, we are recipients of His grace and mercy. That's the limit of our participation, IMHO. How can it be otherwise?

 

Certainly if He offers mercy and grace, which He has in Christ, to us then we can accept it by faith and obedience. 

 

YES YES YES!!!

 

I don’t think you would dare place a limit to what God will do when He states that He has do so.  Otherwise you would be trying to place limits where God has not place limits, and extended mercy to those who have rejected Christ. 

 

My friend, it has been you who have been placing limits on God.  I have been suggesting that His mercy and grace also extends over other 'sheep', including the Jews. Otherwise, they could not even exist.

 

4. All of the above is generally rejected by Christian scholars. Most still claim to know what the prophecies mean, despite the books being sealed. This proves that the below prophecy has also been fulfilled, among others:

 Luke 21:34-36

“And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

“For as a snare shall it come on ALL them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

“Watch ye therefore, and pray always…”

Which books are sealed? 

 

Answered above.

 

The passage, Luke 21:34-36, was fulfilled before the generation to whom Christ spoke, passed away (21:32).  His words were answering question the disciples ask concerning the destruction of the temple and the coming of the kingdom of God (21:5-7). 

 

Ahhhhh...more theological understandings. Who said so? How do you know this is correct. Hint: Jesus also used the words "This generation" to mean the era of Christianity before His Return. So, no, I do not agree with your understanding.

 

The kingdom of God was established on Pentecost and is still in existence.  The “coming of the Son of Man in the cloud with power and glory” happens anytime He comes in judgment on the kingdoms of this world.  It happened many times in the OT (Assyria, Babylon, etc.) and at this time He stated that He is coming to judge Israel and Jerusalem for their sin of rejecting Him.  It was about to take place (21:36) and that judgment took place in 70 a.d. 

 

NELG, where are you going with this? My only position is the ascendency of both God and Jesus beyond our understanding and comprehension. And these exegetical beliefs that you just posited were among the earliest tenets of Christian faith. But the popes and bishops could not have known how Christianity would enter the Dark Ages, or start horrific wars, or construct inhumane institutions of slavery, or abuse and burn women, etc. And no swords had been beat into plowshares, etc. "Come, let us reason together..." Besides, it's to Jesus we must turn to knowledge of the Kingdom of God. And He said, as you know, that it is in our hearts. 

 

To say that “no one knows” about the meaning of this particular prophecy, because it is sealed, is to declare that you know the meaning.  At least this is what you have implied.  To say that everyone else is wrong means that you know the right interpretation.  If you do, tell us?  But of course “it is sealed” from everyone?  Don’t think so since the fulfillment is part of known history. 

 

All I need to do is point to the words of Jesus, who said, "There are many things I have to tell you, but ye cannot bear them now. But when the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you unto all truth." Did that happen at Pentecost as well, considering the mankind's history during that period. Furthermore, wasn't Jesus telling every Christian that they was MORE to know and understand upon His Return? So I was indirectly pointing to this major theme in the Gospels. That's all. Nothing more.

 

I'm interested as to what you have to say about "my understanding of the Church." Really didn't know you could read minds. LOL.  

 

LOL. I've missed a meeting attempting to answer your questions. I can't write anymore. See what you've done?  

Please forgive me, and tell me what I must do in order to inherit the Kingdom of God? Luke 18:11

 

-

 

 No you don't! I am not a preacher. Besides, you claim to already know. Furthermore, who said that I knew, anyway?  

[willy1der]

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. For some to think they have the answer and the rest have missed it; this is God's word. God's motivation was His love for us, and that should be our motivation for one another. Jesus didn't come to condemn or judge, He came to save. When God is for me who shall come against me? Some have quoted scripture about the natural mind cannot understand the things of God for they are spiritual. His word also says we have the mind of Christ.

God bless you all!

[Wayfarer]

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. For some to think they have the answer and the rest have missed it; this is God's word. God's motivation was His love for us, and that should be our motivation for one another. Jesus didn't come to condemn or judge, He came to save. When God is for me who shall come against me? Some have quoted scripture about the natural mind cannot understand the things of God for they are spiritual. His word also says we have the mind of Christ.

God bless you all!

 

+1

[ATHIM]

What was written  in Isaiah is true. But the remaining statement is a trick to enslave people to worship Mary. No declaration was made in the Bible that Mary is the "holiest of all the people born". Nothing in the Bible also teaches to worship a person (like Mary), not even the angels. We all need to be biblical especially nowadays. Lots false preacher today. It is only thru the Bible we can discern who among the preachers today speaks the truth.

 

Matthew 11:11

Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

-This is our Lord Jesus Christ's pronouncement pertaining to John the Baptist

 

Luke 11

²⁷ And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

²⁸ But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

- Lord Jesus Christ corrected the woman's statement regarding Mary, speaking of "blessedness"

 

We do not worship Mary; we reverence her as first among the saints and we give her the blessed praise that she rightly deserves. “Behold henceforth all generations shall call me blessed,” she did not add, accept the Protestants. And while there is no reference in the scriptures to her being the holiest of people, put your thinking cap on, who do you think is???

 

She was not just a birth mother, but the one whose body nourished Gods flesh, who instructed God, guided God, protected God and saved Him from those who would take His life. She is Jesus mother and being a child of a mother that means something very special to every good son, imagine how much God must love her, the one who said Yes to God and gave Jesus a vessel through which He could enter the world and save humanity. No other woman was worthy enough to be the mother of God, and she is, the mother of God. No trick and Jesus did not just pop out of a hat, He chose Mary to be the new Eve of the human race, as Christ is the new Adam.

 

It appears that you have little knowledge of her earthly life or the miracles that Mary has performed over the last 2000 years. But I suppose you think Jesus had brothers too, so perhaps for you she was just another woman who gave birth to God and then went on to enjoy a normal physical relationship with Joseph???

 

 

Jesus first miracle was performed at her request, swaying God to do something He was not prepared to do at the time. She was and is a powerful intercessor. You and I will never have the sway with God that she does and she is alive, so it would behoove us to give her the respect she deserves, she is the living mother of God.

 

²⁸ But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

 

Jesus in no way diminishes the blessedness of His mother, in fact quite the opposite, knowing that her entire life was dedicated to the word of God, keeping it, and selfless service in humility to God, she is exactly the example or hearing and keeping that Jesus is referring to.

“Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee.” She is blessed because she did the will of God, because by saying “yes” to God, she risked her own life and reputation so that our blackened souls could be saved.

 

John, who is Jesus cousin, is not least in the kingdom of heaven now I can assure you, and the Mother of God is closer to God than you and I will ever be.

 

As far as discerning through the Bible, we do not discern the truth, the truth stands and the Bible confirms it, but if we do not understand the scriptures and that for nearly 400 years the Church existed without a canon of scripture, how will we see deception, we will be deceived by the very Bible itself.

 

God is loving and gracious though and there is hope even for us knuckle heads.

 

 

 

[Markinsa]

ATHIM, You put Mary on a pedestal as someone that is to be worshipped.  I bet she's turning over in her grave.  She was "human".  God loves us all equally, and has no favorites, to say that Mary is somehow above the rest of us is blasphemy and don't forget God is a jealous God who wants ALL of our worship and praise.

 

---

Matthew 12:46-50 (NLT)

The True Family of Jesus
⁴⁶ As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. ⁴⁷ Someone told Jesus, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you.”
⁴⁸ Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” ⁴⁹ Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. ⁵⁰ Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”

 

 No you don't! I am not a preacher. Besides, you claim to already know. Furthermore, who said that I knew, anyway?  

 

Did you or did you not say above in one of your replies to Nelg that no one knows if they are really saved?  Romans 10 explicitly states what one must do in order to be saved, so yes I do know and now that you've read Romans 10 a couple of times you should know too.

 

-

[Nelg]

 

Nelg, on 07 Sept 2013 - 5:32 PM, said:

I have no problem with your concealing your personal beliefs.  I would state the same understanding I have of what the Bible says no matter your position.  Frankly, you are revealing your beliefs and perceptions with each post.  They are not any different from many others on these forums. 

 

Thanks for understanding. Truth is not divisive. Much can be imparted through civil conversation. And it's good to know that others here share similar beliefs.

 

If I understand correctly what you just said is that you have a “inside track” in understanding the Scriptures that no one else has.

And, you have place yourself in the position of “knowing” that no one can understand Christ or the way of salvation for man.  That position assumes a state of “knowing” beyond the rest of us.  I find that position rather arrogant and condescending. 

 

I totally agree. It would be both arrogant and condescending for anyone to either posit or personify having an 'inside track". Such a person would also be cast out of any civil venue. But if you read my words carefully, I never made any such pretension. Nor do I claim any 'secret' knowledge. Again, I have been simply responding to your words and the nature of your beliefs. Yes, in doing so I have also been revealing portions of my own.

 

Paul was able to understand the “mystery of Christ” by the revelation of the Spirit.  He wrote down that “mystery” so that his readers could understand what he knew.  I am one of those readers.  Now either Paul was wrong and did not understand what the Spirit was teaching, and those writings give of no understand, or it was correct and we can understand the mysteries of Christ.  I will hold to the latter. 

 

No, Paul was not wrong. How could he be? Yes, there were arguments between him and other Disciples, because some of his views went counter to those of the others who were also being taught by the Holy Spirit. Even now, there are theological debates concerning the efficacy of Pauline doctrines and how it effected the course of Christianity. But none of us were there in the beginning; not every word was recorded. Yet, we all should exhibit Paul's zeal.   

 

True.  There were disagreements especially between Paul and Peter over the way Peter was reacting toward the Gentile converts (preference was being shown to the Jewish Christian).  But this was more of a personal sin by Peter in discrimination and not so much of doctrinal teaching, though the discrimination was a sin against the doctrine of the unity and oneness of the believers. 

It is also true that no every word was recorded.  There may be other letters and writings yet to be discovered which might be part of the inspired revelation, but those writings will not contradict the present biblical text.  It would be exciting to read additional findings, but what we have is enough.

 

To state that no one can understand the Bible is an affront to biblical scholarship.  There are many passages “which are hard to understand,” but they can be understood.  What is really dangerous is for a student of the Bible to allow someone that is a so-called expert to interpret the Bible for him or her.  Dangerous indeed.  Each one of us must search the Scripture. 

 

Ahhhhh... now we are directly addressing the central issue I raised.  But it's not difficult to defend. The Jews could not accept Jesus for the primary reason that He did not fulfill the prophecies...as they 'understood' them. I am speaking of their most erudite scholars.

That was the big problem that Jesus had with Jewish leaders; they were twisting the Scriptures to their own destruction.  Their belief was that the Messiah would come to establish a physical kingdom and reign with military power.  Nor did they believe that God would come into the world by physical birth, or die on the cross, or be resurrected.  Yet all those things were revealed in the OT.  The exchange between Jesus and the Jewish leaders in John 5:30-47 is just one of the times when Jesus corrected their understanding.

If God is the same yesterday, today and forever, then it logically follows that there are also scriptures and prophecies meanings in the New Testament with many meanings which believers in Jesus are getting wrong. 

Therefore, my words were not an "affront" to biblical scholarship.

And it continues to be consternation to me how many Christian scholars (?) continue to commit the same error of the Jewish scholars by looking for a physical fulfillment to spiritually directed passages. 

 

As for "What is really dangerous...", preachers and clergy have been sought out and respected for their understanding of the Holy Bible for almost 2,000 years. All along, they have been considered the experts, just like the Pharisees and Sadducees. Could this be the primary reason for our 40+ thousand sects? 

 

As proof, there is only ONE Holy Bible just as there is only ONE true Church. Yet, again, there are not only over 40,000 exegetically distinctive Christian sects, each one claims 'true' knowledge of the Bible’s contents. I am not judging, but you and your 'denomination' are also complicit. 

Since you also have an opinion, then you would also be one of the “denominations” and “exegetically distinctive . . . sects” in this group of 40K?  Is that what you are saying? 

 

Perhaps.

 

Certainly I believe there is but ONE Bible and only ONE true Church.  I have stated this before.  I am not a Catholic, Protestant, Jew, I am only a Christian and part of the true Church, the body of Christ.  Am I incorrect on some interpretations of Scripture? Very possible.  But this does not keep me from believing the fundamental things I know are correct . . . because of what the Scriptures clearly state. 

 

As I stated before, this is the 'humility' I detect in you. I honestly believe that this is the proper and only orientation one can have vis-à-vis not only God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit but even the Holy Bible.

 

 

IMHO, there are at least four fundamental reasons for this highly confused state of Christianity. I must admit that I can't help but place you among them:

1. The human mind is and will always be inherently limited in its attempts to understand the ways and reality of its Creator -- the Father. Therefore, it can't fully comprehend the reality of the one whom He sent -- Jesus. Those limitations also apply to Christian (and Jewish) understandings of Abraham, Moses and all the Old Testament prophets. 

There are many things about God that the humans cannot understand.  If we understood everything about God we would have all the knowledge of God.  We can, however, understand enough about Him that we can establish a relationship as adopted sons and daughters.  I could not worship a being that I understood completely. 

 

Excellent, except for the 'adopted' part. God wants us to worship Him, IMHO. Otherwise, I totally agree.

The comment about “adoption” is taken from Rom. 8:12-17 and Gal. 4:4-7.

 

Concerning Abraham, Moses and the OT prophets, we can know them as they are revealed in Scripture. 

 

Is that literally, figuratively or exegetically? Because, as a Christian, I was once taught that Jesus was 'superior' to Moses; Moses supposedly sinned before God at the rock. Only later did I discover that Moses assumed responsibility for the sins of His people. In other words, the sin was on them, not Him. Just as Jesus bore the sins of mankind. Do you agree?

No, I don’t agree.  Taking the responsibility for wrongs committed by people under your direction are characteristic of accountable leader (Moses); Moses was such a leader. The assumption of sin by Moses included his own sin of not trusting God. 

Jesus’ sacrifice was far, far, superior to Moses.  Jesus was God in the flesh, sacrificing for the sins of the entire world, including Moses.  He not only sacrificed His life on the cross, but He suffered the punishment in Hades (wrath of God) for all of mankind.  That sacrifice no man could have accomplished.  It took Christ, the Lord, to offer that sacrifice.  He was the only One that could be that substitute for us.

 

2. Generally speaking, Christians have not accepted these innate limitations. With an arrogance that only human beings can display, we have constructed theologies and ideologies and proclaimed them the reality of God and Jesus. Despite the many relevant hard lessons within the Holy Bible that warn us against such pride, and despite Jesus saying “In my Father’s house are many mansions…”, we still believe that we KNOW how God and His self-identified Son view those who are not Christian. You, Nelg, have also made this mistake. This leads to the next point.

How those who disbelieve are view by God is revealed in the Bible, usually by the words of Jesus and the Spirit.  There is no mistaking the words of Jesus when He states, “Unless you believe that I am He you shall die in your sins.”  Certainly He love those who were rejecting Him, but He had given them abundant evidence for them to know and accept Him as the Son of God, God in the flesh, but they were refusing to believe.  Why is that so difficult to understand? 

 

It's not difficult at all to understand. But that's never been the issue, at least as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I've stated that Jesus is considerably more than what's commonly believed, as well as God. Even more than the Gospels could convey. This belief forms the basis of my comments.

Then we would agree.  It is a love through Christ “that surpasses knowledge.”

 

I would like to know your interpretation about what are to whom Jesus was referring with the statement about “many mansions.”  Elucidate if you will?

 

These words, when conjoined with "Other sheep I have..." further elucidate "For God so loved the world..." I have no way to prove it, but I believe His disciples understood the universality of Jesus as the Christ. There is none other.  

From my study of the passage, the “other sheep” are the nations other than the Jews (Isa 56:8; 60:3ff; Jno 11:51-53; 17:20ff; Ep 2:13-18).  The inclusion of individuals, other than a Jew, was a problem for the early Jewish Christian.  But the Book of Romans (9-11) explains that the Gentiles (all nations) have been grafted into the promises of God by their faith.  The Jews, who have been cut off because of their unbelief, can be grafted in the promises only if they have faith in Christ.  The “other sheep” are the Gentiles who accept Christ by faith. 

 

And, what mistake have I made? 

 

IMO, your mistake is judging others through your words. Many people have been led astray by their pastors, by their love of social traditions, or simply due to their own ignorance. You, most of all, know that we must still love them, even if they belong to an apostate church (whatever that is). The church is less important as the people within it.

 It is my pray that all people come to a faith and trust in Christ as Lord and Savior.  I only have love for those who are of different beliefs, but I do seek to “evangelize” or teach those individuals the gospel.  And, I discuss with them what I believe the Bible teaches.  If I believe they are in error concerning Christ, I certainly talk with them about their error.  For me to not do so would be to deny what I believe and myself (2Tim 4:1-8).  I do not judge them, that is not my prerogative. 

3. There are many things in the Holy Bible that simply cannot be comprehended, because the Books are sealed. Do you believe this?  It’s possible, but, so far, your words do not indicate that you do. But if the Holy Bible is true (I believe it is) then the realm of Christianity, germanely, is in a prideful state when its actual true state is one of helplessness and, therefore, totally dependent upon God’s incomprehensible mercy, grace and compassion. 

No, I do not believe that any of the Bible books are sealed.  Why do make such a statement?  Do you have a list of those sealed books? 

 

You already know them. If you don't, do a word search using "seal". Daniel, Revelation, etc.

 

That Christianity is full of prideful people, I would agree.  But for the most part saints of God are totally dependent upon the Lord, and nothing is received without His mercy and grace.  But that mercy and grace has been given through Christ. 

 

YES YES YES!  AGREED AGREED AGREED!!!

 

To state that we cannot participate in His mercy and grace is challenging His extension of love to us. 

 

Where did you get that? I never even inferred it. Besides, we are recipients of His grace and mercy. That's the limit of our participation, IMHO. How can it be otherwise?

 If this is not what you inferred, then my apologies.

Certainly if He offers mercy and grace, which He has in Christ, to us then we can accept it by faith and obedience. 

 

YES YES YES!!!

 

I don’t think you would dare place a limit to what God will do when He states that He has do so.  Otherwise you would be trying to place limits where God has not place limits, and extended mercy to those who have rejected Christ. 

 

My friend, it has been you who have been placing limits on God.  I have been suggesting that His mercy and grace also extends over other 'sheep', including the Jews. Otherwise, they could not even exist.

The only limitation is that His mercy and grace are only found “in Christ.”  To be more specific, mercy and grace are the blessings and forgiveness through the sacrifice and blood of Jesus.  The plan of God before the foundation of the world is that every human being would only be saved through Him.  There is salvation in no other.  The limitation of salvation is not established by me, but by God. 

 

4. All of the above is generally rejected by Christian scholars. Most still claim to know what the prophecies mean, despite the books being sealed. This proves that the below prophecy has also been fulfilled, among others:

 Luke 21:34-36

“And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

“For as a snare shall it come on ALL them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

“Watch ye therefore, and pray always…”

Which books are sealed? 

 

Answered above.

 

The passage, Luke 21:34-36, was fulfilled before the generation to whom Christ spoke, passed away (21:32).  His words were answering question the disciples ask concerning the destruction of the temple and the coming of the kingdom of God (21:5-7). 

 

Ahhhhh...more theological understandings. Who said so? How do you know this is correct. Hint: Jesus also used the words "This generation" to mean the era of Christianity before His Return. So, no, I do not agree with your understanding.

 The context hold the answer to the interpretation.  Look at the parallel passages of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.  Jesus is not talking about the “generation” of today or the one shortly before His final coming and judgment.  It is the “generation” that will not pass away until they see the fulfillment of what Jesus is telling the disciples. 

Certainly the same word is used to mean the generations of the past (OT), in the future, and possible the present generation.  But words are defined by their use in their context; but you should know that.  “What does the context indicate?” is the one of the first principles in understanding Scripture.  The term in this passage refers to the time of the first century.

The kingdom of God was established on Pentecost and is still in existence.  The “coming of the Son of Man in the cloud with power and glory” happens anytime He comes in judgment on the kingdoms of this world.  It happened many times in the OT (Assyria, Babylon, etc.) and at this time He stated that He is coming to judge Israel and Jerusalem for their sin of rejecting Him.  It was about to take place (21:36) and that judgment took place in 70 a.d. 

 

NELG, where are you going with this? My only position is the ascendency of both God and Jesus beyond our understanding and comprehension. And these exegetical beliefs that you just posited were among the earliest tenets of Christian faith. But the popes and bishops could not have known how Christianity would enter the Dark Ages, or start horrific wars, or construct inhumane institutions of slavery, or abuse and burn women, etc. And no swords had been beat into plowshares, etc. "Come, let us reason together..." Besides, it's to Jesus we must turn to knowledge of the Kingdom of God. And He said, as you know, that it is in our hearts. 

My point is the connected to the interpretation of Luke 21.  Whether the Catholic Church recognized their apostasies or not has no bearing on the premise.  The church/kingdom of God was already in existence for 200 years before the RCC came into existence. 

Certainly the kingdom is in the heart of the believer.  The acceptance of His Rule in our life is one of the heart and not just ritual and form.  Thus the importance of the new birth.  

 

To say that “no one knows” about the meaning of this particular prophecy, because it is sealed, is to declare that you know the meaning.  At least this is what you have implied.  To say that everyone else is wrong means that you know the right interpretation.  If you do, tell us?  But of course “it is sealed” from everyone?  Don’t think so since the fulfillment is part of known history. 

 

All I need to do is point to the words of Jesus, who said, "There are many things I have to tell you, but ye cannot bear them now. But when the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you unto all truth." Did that happen at Pentecost as well, considering the mankind's history during that period. Furthermore, wasn't Jesus telling every Christian that they was MORE to know and understand upon His Return? So I was indirectly pointing to this major theme in the Gospels. That's all. Nothing more.

Jesus was promising the disciples that they would be receiving revelation and guidance by the Holy Spirit.  The Spirit did guide them into all truth.  We receive the benefit by having their writings to read. Thus we have access to what the Spirit revealed to the apostles. 

Will we receive additional information when Jesus returns and we enter the eternal realm of heaven?  I would hope so.  I’ve got many questions! LOL.  But I’m sure they will not even come to mind or really matter since I will be in His Presence. 

 

I'm interested as to what you have to say about "my understanding of the Church." Really didn't know you could read minds. LOL.  

 

LOL. I've missed a meeting attempting to answer your questions. I can't write anymore. See what you've done? 

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/159812-the-prophet-muhammad/page-3#ixzz2eFyXeasa

Enjoyed our discussion.  Have a blessed evening and worship tomorrow. 

Your friend,

Nelg/Glen

 

 

[chess]

Your statement reveals that you are not interested in inquiring about the Deity of Jesus. And, even if I did present the proof that He was God come in the flesh that you would accept those proofs.  Closed minds are seldom convinced even with facts. If you are truly interested, let me know and we can discuss this and I can assist you in understanding some of these supposed contradictions. Shalom.

Jesus, a Jew, and being brought up as a student of the Torah, had to believe there was ONLY one God...and no other false gods before Him!

[Nelg]

Jesus, a Jew, and being brought up as a student of the Torah, had to believe there was ONLY one God...and no other false gods before Him!

Yes.  I just wonder what He knew at that age.  As he grew in age He also grew in wisdom and knowledge (Lk 2:40).  At the age of 12 He was found among the teachers in the temple, where he was both listening and asking them questions.  But He was also answering the teachers questions, which amazed the teacher of the Law (Lk 2:45-52).  Seem that He learned very quickly.  

There were a number of things that Jesus had to overcome while in the flesh. Christ "emptied himself" when he came to live in the flesh. 

 

Even as an adult Jesus continued to learn (Heb 5:7-9).  

[chess]

Yes.  I just wonder what He knew at that age.  As he grew in age He also grew in wisdom and knowledge (Lk 2:40).  At the age of 12 He was found among the teachers in the temple, where he was both listening and asking them questions.  But He was also answering the teachers questions, which amazed the teacher of the Law (Lk 2:45-52).  Seem that He learned very quickly.  

There were a number of things that Jesus had to overcome while in the flesh. Christ "emptied himself" when he came to live in the flesh. 

 

Even as an adult Jesus continued to learn (Heb 5:7-9).

BUT, then he had to study (Torah) about a coming Mesiah. Dare He be so bold as to think he was studying about His future self?

[Wayfarer]

ATHIM, You put Mary on a pedestal as someone that is to be worshipped.  I bet she's turning over in her grave.  She was "human".  God loves us all equally, and has no favorites, to say that Mary is somehow above the rest of us is blasphemy and don't forget God is a jealous God who wants ALL of our worship and praise.

 

---

Matthew 12:46-50 (NLT)

The True Family of Jesus

⁴⁶ As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. ⁴⁷ Someone told Jesus, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you.”

⁴⁸ Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” ⁴⁹ Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. ⁵⁰ Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”

 

Did you or did you not say above in one of your replies to Nelg that no one knows if they are really saved?  Romans 10 explicitly states what one must do in order to be saved, so yes I do know and now that you've read Romans 10 a couple of times you should know too.

 

-

 

Yes, I stated that and I stand by it. In deference to your sincerity, I'll again state why:

 

Matthew 7:21-23

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

”And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

 

I appreciate your sincerity, but is this clear enough for you? Belief in Jesus "in that day" (NOW, the End Times) will NOT be sufficient!!!! Only God's eyes, not one's own, not a pastor's nor commonly shared beliefs can determine the true quality of one's soul, the inner state of one's mind, and the sincerity of one's convictions.

 

EVERYONE will be tested by God, because the criteria for belief in Him will have changed. The other prophecy above clearly states that there will be a 'snare' to determine true belief. In other words, believing that He is Lord and even doing remarkable things in His name will not be enough!!! Fear God!!!  

 

In other words, it seems that the criteria established in the Holy Bible were just the basics. Even so, we all know how difficult they were for people to understand and accept 2,000 years ago. But that was then. Today, most everyone on the planet has heard of Jesus. Now it's much easier to believe in Him; billions of people now love Him and call Him Lord. Nations even call themselves 'Christian'.

 

So according to the Holy Bible, and based upon the actual words of Jesus, we cannot be content with traditional understandings. Why should we be? God has never done ANYTHING, relative to us, according to popular expectations. This one prophecy says as much. That is, unless you know of another interpretation. If so, present it biblically.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Wayfarer

[Wayfarer]

Markinsa, I need to apologize for my previous post. I was speaking from passion. I can do better than that.

 

We both call ourselves sincere believers in Jesus. Yet, our minds are different, as well as our understandings of not only the Holy Bible but the reality of Jesus. Unless we can harmonize our thoughts in some manner, we are both in a kind of spiritual darkness, IMHO, which is outside of the love Jesus requires of us.

 

Question: Are there any mysteries in the Holy Bible that compel you to seek a greater understanding of its meanings? If so, how are you addressing that need. But if not, it's really ok. Because, no one has either the right or, truth be told, the ability to properly judge anyone else.

 

Question: Is Jesus' Return a central or simply an ancillary component of your belief in Him?

 

Question: Are you concerned about being unprepared for Jesus' Return? (I sincerely believe that the above prophecy, and others, directly pertain to that promised day)

 

Question: How do you explain the 'new age' we now live in and its previously unimaginable "increase in knowledge"? Seriously. Because, both are biblically associated with Jesus' Return.

 

These types of questions and issues are the reasons for my passion. Personally, I believe they and many more are involved in the 'snare' that is testing not only every Christian but all humankind. All the world, everyone who believes in God, is being called to account in different ways. Do you agree or not?

Edited September 8, 2013 by Wayfarer

[Nelg]

 

Yes.  I just wonder what He knew at that age.  As he grew in age He also grew in wisdom and knowledge (Lk 2:40).  At the age of 12 He was found among the teachers in the temple, where he was both listening and asking them questions.  But He was also answering the teachers questions, which amazed the teacher of the Law (Lk 2:45-52).  Seem that He learned very quickly.  

There were a number of things that Jesus had to overcome while in the flesh. Christ "emptied himself" when he came to live in the flesh. 

 

Even as an adult Jesus continued to learn (Heb 5:7-9).

BUT, then he had to study (Torah) about a coming Mesiah. Dare He be so bold as to think he was studying about His future self?

 

More than likely He was questioning the Priest and teachers about their understanding of what the Torah was saying.  After all, He was about His Father's business.  He knew Who He was even at that young age.  The Christ was did not have a beginning with the birth of Jesus.  Christ, the Lord, is an Eternal Being.  He was God Who came in the flesh (Jno 1:14).  Only the fleshly existence of God started at the birth of Jesus.  His self realization (understand that He was the Son of God) came before He was 12 years of age.  The declaration to His earthly mother, along with Joseph, that He must be about His Father's business indicates that they knew that Jesus knew earlier that He was the Son of God.  

Dare He be so bold?  He was God . . . why would the studying about Himself be a "bold" pursuit?  During His life He constantly referred the disciples and the Jewish leaders to consider what was written about Him in the Law.  The at the beginning of His ministry He purposely took the scroll containing a prophecy of Himself and read it in the synagogue; then boldly stated that it was fulfilled, implying that He was the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy (Lk 4:14-21).  Yes, He would be so bold!  Throughout His teaching and preaching He boldly claimed to be the One that was predicted in the Law and the Prophets.  After He was crucified and resurrected He went to the disciples and boldly declared that all the Law and the Prophets referred to Him (Lk 24:28-47).  Personally, I would have loved to have been in that session with the disciples!  Now that would have been informative!  Yes, He would have been so bold!  

[Markinsa]

Markinsa, I need to apologize for my previous post. I was speaking from passion. I can do better than that.

I took no offense from your previous post. Passion is good when we're speaking about where one's soul will end up.

 

We both call ourselves sincere believers in Jesus. Yet, our minds are different, as well as our understandings of not only the Holy Bible but the reality of Jesus. Unless we can harmonize our thoughts in some manner, we are both in a kind of spiritual darkness, IMHO, which is outside of the love Jesus requires of us.

I believe the word sincerity is the key to our salvation. We all know in our hearts whether we are sincere in our beliefs or not. Matthew 7:21-23 speaks to how God will reveal the content of our hearts, Matthew 21 gives the criteria for entering Heaven, which would be the fruit of our belief and confession.

 

Matthew 7:21(NLT) .... Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 

 

Question: Is Jesus' Return a central or simply an ancillary component of your belief in Him?

Neither, if Jesus never returns, I would still believe in him.

 

Question: Are you concerned about being unprepared for Jesus' Return? (I sincerely believe that the above prophecy, and others, directly pertain to that promised day)

Shouldn't we all be?  Yes, I am ashamed that I am not as prepared as I should be.

 

Question: How do you explain the 'new age' we now live in and its previously unimaginable "increase in knowledge"? Seriously. Because, both are biblically associated with Jesus' Return.

I can't explain it.  I agree it is associated with Jesus' return.

 

These types of questions and issues are the reasons for my passion. Personally, I believe they and many more are involved in the 'snare' that is testing not only every Christian but all humankind. All the world, everyone who believes in God, is being called to account in different ways. Do you agree or not?

 

I personally believe that God set the salvation standards pretty low, Believe and Confess with sincerity, pretty simple.  Not everyone has the ability to study scripture, so to say (in general) that you have to perform additional tasks to earn your way into Heaven takes away from what Jesus did for us on Calvary.

 

-

[darwinatridge]

Throughout history there have been many who have sought to complicate something that Jesus himself said was simple. Matt.22:37-40. This has lead to people using God's word for their own profit. Just like Satan did in the Garden of Eden. Christianity is simple. It is mankind that has made it complicated. But in the end there will be a simple resolution. Matt. 25:31-46

[Wayfarer]

I took no offense from your previous post. Passion is good when we're speaking about where one's soul will end up.

 

I believe the word sincerity is the key to our salvation. We all know in our hearts whether we are sincere in our beliefs or not. Matthew 7:21-23 speaks to how God will reveal the content of our hearts, Matthew 21 gives the criteria for entering Heaven, which would be the fruit of our belief and confession.

 

Matthew 7:21(NLT) .... Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 

 

Neither, if Jesus never returns, I would still believe in him.

 

Shouldn't we all be?  Yes, I am ashamed that I am not as prepared as I should be.

 

I can't explain it.  I agree it is associated with Jesus' return.

 

I personally believe that God set the salvation standards pretty low, Believe and Confess with sincerity, pretty simple.  Not everyone has the ability to study scripture, so to say (in general) that you have to perform additional tasks to earn your way into Heaven takes away from what Jesus did for us on Calvary.

 

 

 

I'm relieved that you weren't offended. In pondering the many posts on this blog, there seems to be one consistent and high barrier that is ever present. It looks like this: If YOU don't believe as I do, then something is wrong with YOU. It's here among us. I'm guilty myself. I think all of us carry this ready-to-use barrier around in our mental pocket to erect at the first sign of beliefs that don't conform to what we have been taught as 'true' and Christian. Therefore, we stand behind it and 'throw' scriptures as if the other one hasn't read them already. I'm consciously trying to destroy the barrier I carry. Fellowship and the common love of Christ require it. 

 

Your answers are good answers. Short, but clear and honest. But you didn't answer the question about possible mysteries in the Holy Bible.

 

I must leave. I'll resume later today.

[Nelg]

Athim, I hope you don’t mind me interjecting some thoughts into your post.

I have been “caught up” with discussions posted by Wayfarer and with other pursuits that I have not read your posts until this a.m. 

 

We do not worship Mary; we reverence her as first among the saints and we give her the blessed praise that she rightly deserves. “Behold henceforth all generations shall call me blessed,” she did not add, accept the Protestants. And while there is no reference in the scriptures to her being the holiest of people, put your thinking cap on, who do you think is???

Apparently there has been some discussion about Mary, the mother of Jesus. She was a “blessed’ woman by being chosen by the Holy Spirit to bear the “seed” of God and giving birth to the Messiah.  I think most “believer” honor her for the part that she played in the plan of God in bring Christ into the world.  However, her “holiness” is only based on what she received by grace from God.  She had no “holiness” that was derived from her works or life; at least there is no indication of this from inspired writings.  All “holiness” (freedom from sin) is based on what God gives to people and it cannot be achieved on their own merit. 

 

 

She was not just a birth mother, but the one whose body nourished Gods flesh, who instructed God, guided God, protected God and saved Him from those who would take His life. She is Jesus mother and being a child of a mother that means something very special to every good son, imagine how much God must love her, the one who said Yes to God and gave Jesus a vessel through which He could enter the world and save humanity. No other woman was worthy enough to be the mother of God, and she is, the mother of God. No trick and Jesus did not just pop out of a hat, He chose Mary to be the new Eve of the human race, as Christ is the new Adam.

I don’t think that Mary needs to be thought of as the “new Eve.” There is not a need for a “new Eve.”  It would be quite wrong for that to follow in your analogy.  This would make Mary the wife of the new Adam, Christ, and I really don’t think you meant to convey that thought.  She was what she was intended to be, the birth mother of the Messiah, Jesus.  

 

It appears that you have little knowledge of her earthly life or the miracles that Mary has performed over the last 2000 years. But I suppose you think Jesus had brothers too, so perhaps for you she was just another woman who gave birth to God and then went on to enjoy a normal physical relationship with Joseph???

 I’m not the one you are addressing, but I have heard of the claims of miracles done by Mary.  I have yet to be convinced that those miracles were real.  As of yet the evidence is only confirmed by those who have an interest in keeping the veneration of Mary alive; nor is there any reason for the alleged miracles to have been performed. 

I am one of those who believe that Mary and Joseph had normal physical relationship after the birth of Jesus.  The birth of other “brothers” and “sisters” of Jesus prove that to be the case (Mt 13:55-56).  These were not “cousins” but siblings through Mary and Joseph.  These were not the words of “friends” of Jesus, but by those who were his neighbors who took “offense” to His preaching and power. 

But the sexual relationship between husband and wife is not a sin.  Her “righteousness” would always remain intact.  So why would the having other children be so wrong for Mary?

 

Jesus first miracle was performed at her request, swaying God to do something He was not prepared to do at the time. She was and is a powerful intercessor. You and I will never have the sway with God that she does and she is alive, so it would behoove us to give her the respect she deserves, she is the living mother of God.

 

²⁸ But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

 There is no doubting that a mother’s wish would be granted by a loving son, but the response of Jesus to His mother indicates that He was ending her authority as a parent.  His stern remark to Mary, and His statement “Woman, what do I have to do with you? My hour has not yet come” seems to stress that break in any authority she may have had as a parent over the Lord of the Universe.  Again, there is nothing wrong with the relationship.  She is still His mother and He love Her dearly, but He must increase and she must decrease in her parental control. 

Mary’s intercession on behalf of anther person is never indicated in the writings of the apostles and prophets.  Intercession on the part of the saints is inclusive of all those who are in Christ and pray for each other.  That is part of the work of Christians and not the function of one individual, aka, Mary. 

 

Jesus in no way diminishes the blessedness of His mother, in fact quite the opposite, knowing that her entire life was dedicated to the word of God, keeping it, and selfless service in humility to God, she is exactly the example or hearing and keeping that Jesus is referring to.

“Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee.” She is blessed because she did the will of God, because by saying “yes” to God, she risked her own life and reputation so that our blackened souls could be saved.

No one doubts that she was faithful to God; she would be and should be as all saints should be. But her life was not sinless.  She had the need of a Savior, Christ Jesus, as much as any of the rest of us (Lk 1:46-47). 

 

John, who is Jesus cousin, is not least in the kingdom of heaven now I can assure you, and the Mother of God is closer to God than you and I will ever be.

I don’t believe you can “assure” that John has a higher relationship than any saint of God; that would be pure speculation.  We all cast our crowns down and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. 

 

As far as discerning through the Bible, we do not discern the truth, the truth stands and the Bible confirms it, but if we do not understand the scriptures and that for nearly 400 years the Church existed without a canon of scripture, how will we see deception, we will be deceived by the very Bible itself.

There were mss and writings (letters and gospels) being passed around the churches long before they were fixed into a canon.  By the end of the First Century the church was reading all the gospels and letters.  The formal canon was simply a collection of mss of those writings. 

God is loving and gracious though and there is hope even for us knuckle heads. 

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/159812-the-prophet-muhammad/page-3#ixzz2eKIlojR6

 

Praise God for that Grace and Hope!

[Wayfarer]

NELG, I just noticed (5:12pm EDT) that you had indeed responded to my post. I had been waiting...and waiting. Allow me time to read through your answers. My wife now wants me to take here to the movies. Sheeesh!

[Nelg]

NELG, I just noticed (5:12pm EDT) that you had indeed responded to my post. I had been waiting...and waiting. Allow me time to read through your answers. My wife now wants me to take here to the movies. Sheeesh!

I will be gone for the rest of the evening as well.  I meet with a "small group" for meal and Bible discussion.  We can post later.  Have a good evening.  

[ATHIM]

On this day, the 8th of September when the Church celebrates the birth of the Virgin Mary, I think I am obligated to point out a few things seeing as though it has become hard for us to hear the word from Gods Church.

 

It is not that God has favorites; it’s just that as you love some people more than others, so does He, being those who do His will and faithfully serve Him till there last breath. God rests in His saints. Mary was born as we were, into a fallen world and in need of the savior as we are. She was though dedicated to the temple by her elderly parents at the age of Three where she was raised in prayer and service to God. Sound like our lives yet? When she had reached the age at which she could no longer stay in the temple, about 13, she had to be given into the care of someone seeing as though her elderly parents were now deceased. She was betrothed to Joseph.  

 

At about 14 years of age the Archangel Gabriel appeared to her. Gabriel was so in awe of her that he was at a loss for what to say to her, so her spoke to her as he was instructed by God. “HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE THE LORD IS WITH THEE.” He told her that she had found favor with God and that she would bring forth the savior of the world. Sound like our lives yet? She was ridiculed and blasphemed for obvious pregnancy without being married and it was the will of the people to kill her. If they killed her we might still be waiting for the savior today. Sound like our lives yet?

 

Joseph was an elderly man at the time of their betrothal and confessed to Jesus directly at about the age of 100 and passed away just before Jesus began His ministry, do the math. P.S. get a hold of Joseph’s confession and read it, it will move your heart.

 

MARKINSA: Run 100 yards in 9.9 seconds and I will agree with you that we are all equal.  When you die and are assumed into heaven physically, when you appear to countless faithful people after your death and grant miracles then I will say, you know what, you were equal to the mother of God, but I will reserve that conclusion till we have both passed.  

 

Reading some literature written on the subject will inspire and help us all have a better perspective on what is attainable for a humans in terms of righteousness and holiness, the qualities found in all Gods saints and certainly exemplified in Gods mother.

 

So if God requires all our praise then do not praise another of your fellow saints for as long as you live, even if they lay their life down for the faith. This is a flawed notion, God expects us to love one another and praising, especially those who excel in faith is not only edifying it is expected, though giving the glory in all things to God when praised. Worship of course is alone reserved for God. Perhaps Mary is turning over in her grave, oh wait, she doesn’t have one.

 

JESUS HAD NO PHYSICAL BROTHERS; He had cousins. The Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures used by the Apostles (abbreviated LXX) includes specific words for "cousin," notably adelphinos and anepsios, but they are rarely used. The less specific word adelphos, which can mean "brother," "cousin," "kinsman," "fellow believer," or "fellow countryman," is used consistently throughout the LXX, even when cousin or kinsman is clearly the relation described (such as in Genesis 14:14, 16; 29:12; Leviticus 25:49; Jeremiah 32:8, 9, 12; Tobit 7:2; etc.). Lot, for instance, who was the nephew of Abraham (cf. Genesis 11:27-31), is called his brother in Genesis 13:8 and 11:14-16. The point is that the commonly used Greek word for a male relative, adelphos, can be translated "cousin" or "brother" if no specific family relation is indicated.

 

Is there anywhere a clear statement in the Scriptures establishing Jesus brothers as literally the children of Mary? In fact, there is not. Nowhere is Mary explicitly stated to be the mother of Jesus' brothers. The formula for speaking of the Lord's family is "His mother and His brothers." In Mark the possessive, anavtou"of Him," is inserted before both "His mother" and "His brothers," making a clear distinction. In Acts 1:14, the separation is more pronounced: "Mary the mother of Jesus, and His brothers." Some manuscripts use the conjunctive syn "along with, in company with," so that the text reads "Mary the mother of Jesus, along with His brothers." In any case, Mary is never identified as the mother of Jesus' brothers (nor they as her children), but only as the Mother of Jesus.

 

If Jesus had brothers, He broke tradition by giving her to the Apostle John at the cross. And yes, Mary is a type of the new Eve, obedient to God.

 

PONDER THIS. Jesus lived for 9 months inside a sinner, touching her sinful body, breathing her sinful air and being fed by her sinful flesh. Make sense to you??? This notion is unthinkable.

 

The holy saints love and adore her as Gods mother. She is a speedy intercessor, humble beyond reproach, always pointing us to her son and our Lord and may she greet us in the company of our family when we depart from this life.

 

Blessed be the holy mother of God who is praised among the angels and the saints. Eternal be her memory and glorified be the fruit of her womb our Lord and savior Jesus Chris, now and always unto the end of the age.

[waterman13]

ATHIM, you are confused in my opinion. Jesus did have physical brothers, I believe the Scriptures prove this.

Mary was not holy, simply blessed to be picked by God to bear the Christ Child.

WM13

Edited September 8, 2013 by waterman13