Is God Really Moral??

Black Swan · June 23, 2012

Excellent feedback and comments. I think you filled in a few of my holes, like praying for others. Quiet correct! :tiphat:

OBTW..I reread what I wrote and I totally screwed the analogy up...should of have been cart before the horse...that's what you get for deep diving on these type of subject when you can't read what you wrote. ha ha

I do want to add to your feedback on blacks and repression...because it does tie into what I was mentioning with "minorities" but I can see that my light dusting on the subject didn't hit the mark, so I promise to expand on those thoughts next week

One minor divergence in our two opinions, you mentioned these countries as non-socialist:. New Zealand, Hong Kong, Japan, Czech Republic, Belgium, France, Russia, Slovenia, Germany, South Korea, UK, Hungary, Bulgaria

I've been to every one of them (lived in Japan, NZ, UK and Germany), and while they may not be AS social as norway, finland, sweden and the neatherland...they are FAR to the left of what America is, so much so that the normal Yank wouldn't really pick up on the difference. I'd even say Canada is probably fairly close as is Australia...hope Fly doesn't kick my butt for saying that. ha ha

Buy the way, I'm SOOOOOO impressed that this crowd is minding their P&Q....it is extremely rare that they would allow the likes of us to keep discussing this, I think you deserve tremendous credit for taking a very level headed, not threating approach.

Kudo Neo...very well done! :bravo:

Sonnet · June 23, 2012

NEO . . . I can not address your responses from my iPhone & I have a conference at church this weekend plus a family reunion in a nearby city! Just let me say that because HE has revealed himself to me, I know that I know that I know that HE is real! I have been awakened to His love & I am forever changed! HE is beautiful & glorious & mighty!

Once you experience this, you want others to have it too! If that offends you, that was not my intent . . . I want you to know how incredibly awesome HE IS!!! So, let's just leave it at that for now! I am praying for you, although you being an atheist couldn't care less. However, I know that The Lord of Hosts (which God calls Himself more than any other name & it means the mighty man of war) will war against the enemies of your soul! When we ask Him to supernaturally intervene that HE will RISE UP AS THE MIGHTY MAN OF WAR & HE is able to break through even the hardest of hearts! So, you can expect it or not expect it but I am believing that you are getting ready to have an encounter with The Almighty God! So be it!

bald1 · June 23, 2012

- I hear you, so then do you think for instance the murders of all those innocent women during the with hunts were justified?

"We are to use this not to live by (NEW TESTAMENT NOW) but to study to not repeat the mistakes constantly repeated by Judah."

-Really? The seven deadly sins are in the first testament, do you not adhere to those? Many christians do. Even within the new test jesus condones slavery and in fact has specific instructions regarding the handling and payment of slaves. Do you then condone slavery yourself? I'm guessing not.

"The good thing about God is that he offers forgiveness."

- Except after you die right? The forgiveness option apparently has an expiration date huh? One can apparently be a terrible person their entire life, then on their death bed simply get forgiven and all is well. Meanwhile one could be a great person and not except jesus and not receive the option of forgiveness after death. Doesn't make sense that god would punish good people and bless horrible people who simply say "forgive me" at the last minute. Just seems pretty immoral imo.

Witch hunt murders were carried out man not God.

Seven deadly sins were put together by Catholic Church. Is the Catholic Church the Church that follows the principals set forth by Christ

Who is the judge of what makes a great person? You cannot I cannot know what is in there heart. A person on their death bed that obeys the Gospel are they truly saved? Again what is in their heart. Did they truly believe? Anybody can go through the motions, becoming a Child of God begins with Hearing the Word of God, Believe, Repent, confess, and be baptized. If you skip the first three are you saved?

Did Jesus Condone slavery? Depends on the kind slave. Slave to sin yes he condemned. Slave has more than one reference in the Bible. We cannot be for certain if it one who is voluntarily working or involuntarily working. If human slavery was present and history shows that more than likely it was it was written for both. 1Tim was written to those "under yoke" which implies labor or servitude. Those under "yoke" were respect their "masters". Christ did not cancel these obligations but seeked to strengthen them. Basic rules of labor. We are all slaves at some point in our lives. If you are in debt you are a slave to the lender. Unless your self employed you are a servant to your boss. If you sign a contract you have obligations to uphold.

Did Christ Condone mistreatment of people for profit?

Loco01 · June 23, 2012

The answers to all of your questions about god are very simple to find.

Read the Bible

Quit relying on other sources for information on what the Bible says or means

How can you decide whose is right in a debate if you don't about the subject.

How do you know who is telling you the truth the world is full of spin.

You cannot let any one tell you what the bible means with out getting their opinion

If you really want to know the what,when,where and why you must read the Bible yourself.

My wife came to me about a year ago she had been watching a film about the banned books of the bible.

She didn't think it was right someone had banned books from the bible.

I tried to explain why those books to no do not belong in the Bible with no success.

She had never read the Bible despite being saved and a christian.

All she has been relying on was preachers and study groups so she was not getting the whole story.

Just bits and pieces and with others opinions as to what it means.

So finally I told her until she read the Bible and she read the banned books she would not ever understand why they were banned. She has since started reading the Bible and now we can have conversations about the word of god instead of what she heard from this or that.

If you really want the truth then read the Bible yourself.

If you don't read the Bible and relying on what you watch and hear for information on God.

You are basing the most important decision in your life on inaccurate information and bias

And if you are not willing to read the Bible then you do not have the right to form any opinion

about God.

NEODinar · June 23, 2012

Excellent feedback and comments. I think you filled in a few of my holes, like praying for others. Quiet correct! <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tip_hat.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> OBTW..I reread what I wrote and I totally screwed the analogy up...should of have been cart before the horse...that's what you get for deep diving on these type of subject when you can't read what you wrote. ha ha I do want to add to your feedback on blacks and repression...because it does tie into what I was mentioning with "minorities" but I can see that my light dusting on the subject didn't hit the mark, so I promise to expand on those thoughts next week One minor divergence in our two opinions, you mentioned these countries as non-socialist:. New Zealand, Hong Kong, Japan, Czech Republic, Belgium, France, Russia, Slovenia, Germany, South Korea, UK, Hungary, Bulgaria I've been to every one of them (lived in Japan, NZ, UK and Germany), and while they may not be AS social as norway, finland, sweden and the neatherland...they are FAR to the left of what America is, so much so that the normal Yank wouldn't really pick up on the difference. I'd even say Canada is probably fairly close as is Australia...hope Fly doesn't kick my butt for saying that. ha ha Buy the way, I'm SOOOOOO impressed that this crowd is minding their P&Q....it is extremely rare that they would allow the likes of us to keep discussing this, I think you deserve tremendous credit for taking a very level headed, not threating approach. Kudo Neo...very well done! <img src='http://dinarvets.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/emot-downsbravo.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

"OBTW..I reread what I wrote and I totally screwed the analogy up...should of have been cart before the horse...that's what you get for deep diving on these type of subject when you can't read what you wrote. ha ha"

- No worries, i understood what you meant

"I've been to every one of them (lived in Japan, NZ, UK and Germany), and while they may not be AS social as norway, finland, sweden and the neatherland...they are FAR to the left of what America is, so much so that the normal Yank wouldn't really pick up on the difference."

- Agreed, and as I think you agree, there are degrees of socialism, simply having some social safeguards or having left leaning ideologies doesn't really equate to pure socialism. Even America has some social safeguards.

"Buy the way, I'm SOOOOOO impressed that this crowd is minding their P&Q....it is extremely rare that they would allow the likes of us to keep discussing this, I think you deserve tremendous credit for taking a very level headed, not threating approach. "

- Wait why would they not allow us to discuss this? I mean I understand that believers are the majority here but this isn't a christian forum? We haven't broken forum rules, and we aren't disrespecting anyone. I guess I don't understand what the issue would be, but thanks Black Swan, I too enjoy these conversations and look forward to more. Take care

NEO . . . I can not address your responses from my iPhone & I have a conference at church this weekend plus a family reunion in a nearby city! Just let me say that because HE has revealed himself to me, I know that I know that I know that HE is real! I have been awakened to His love & I am forever changed! HE is beautiful & glorious & mighty! Once you experience this, you want others to have it too! If that offends you, that was not my intent . . . I want you to know how incredibly awesome HE IS!!! So, let's just leave it at that for now! I am praying for you, although you being an atheist couldn't care less. However, I know that The Lord of Hosts (which God calls Himself more than any other name & it means the mighty man of war) will war against the enemies of your soul! When we ask Him to supernaturally intervene that HE will RISE UP AS THE MIGHTY MAN OF WAR & HE is able to break through even the hardest of hearts! So, you can expect it or not expect it but I am believing that you are getting ready to have an encounter with The Almighty God! So be it!

"Just let me say that because HE has revealed himself to me, I know that I know that I know that HE is real! I have been awakened to His love & I am forever changed! HE is beautiful & glorious & mighty!"

- Fair enough and thats your belief, But that doesn't make the claim true. For instance "he" hasn't revealed anything to any of the billions of non christians. Seems mighty strange that such a powerful boundless god who is literally hell bent on having us believe in him would have such a difficult time revealing himself to the majority of the world. Doesn't add up. Just sayin

"Once you experience this, you want others to have it too! If that offends you, that was not my intent . . . I want you to know how incredibly awesome HE IS!!! So, let's just leave it at that for now! I am praying for you, although you being an atheist couldn't care less. However, I know that The Lord of Hosts (which God calls Himself more than any other name & it means the mighty man of war) will war against the enemies of your soul! When we ask Him to supernaturally intervene that HE will RISE UP AS THE MIGHTY MAN OF WAR & HE is able to break through even the hardest of hearts! So, you can expect it or not expect it but I am believing that you are getting ready to have an encounter with The Almighty God! So be it!"

- Ok I hear you, and once you experience reason and mental freedom, you want others to experience it as well. I know how awesome RATIONAL THINKING IS!!! I'll be thinking for you. Take care.

<div align="left">- I hear you, so then do you think for instance the murders of all those innocent women during the with hunts were justified? </div> <div align="left">"We are to use this not to live by (NEW TESTAMENT NOW) but to study to not repeat the mistakes constantly repeated by Judah."</div> <div align="left">-Really? The seven deadly sins are in the first testament, do you not adhere to those? Many christians do. Even within the new test jesus condones slavery and in fact has specific instructions regarding the handling and payment of slaves. Do you then condone slavery yourself? I'm guessing not. </div> <div align="left">"The good thing about God is that he offers forgiveness."</div> <div align="left">- Except after you die right? The forgiveness option apparently has an expiration date huh? One can apparently be a terrible person their entire life, then on their death bed simply get forgiven and all is well. Meanwhile one could be a great person and not except jesus and not receive the option of forgiveness after death. Doesn't make sense that god would punish good people and bless horrible people who simply say "forgive me" at the last minute. Just seems pretty immoral imo.</div> <div align="left"> Witch hunt murders were carried out man not God.</div> <div align="left"> </div> <div align="left">Seven deadly sins were put together by Catholic Church. Is the Catholic Church the Church that follows the principals set forth by Christ</div> <div align="left"> </div> <div align="left">Who is the judge of what makes a great person? You cannot I cannot know what is in there heart. A person on their death bed that obeys the Gospel are they truly saved? Again what is in their heart. Did they truly believe? Anybody can go through the motions, becoming a Child of God begins with Hearing the Word of God, Believe, Repent, confess, and be baptized. If you skip the first three are you saved? </div> <div align="left"> </div> <div align="left">Did Jesus Condone slavery? Depends on the kind slave. Slave to sin yes he condemned. Slave has more than one reference in the Bible. We cannot be for certain if it one who is voluntarily working or involuntarily working. If human slavery was present and history shows that more than likely it was it was written for both. 1Tim was written to those "under yoke" which implies labor or servitude. Those under "yoke" were respect their "masters". Christ did not cancel these obligations but seeked to strengthen them. Basic rules of labor. We are all slaves at some point in our lives. If you are in debt you are a slave to the lender. Unless your self employed you are a servant to your boss. If you sign a contract you have obligations to uphold. </div> <div align="left">Did Christ Condone mistreatment of people for profit? </div> <div align="left"> </div>

"Witch hunt murders were carried out man not God."

- Yeah, on god's "orders" Of course god never actually in reality ever carries anything out, he would first have to exist for him to personally do that.

"Seven deadly sins were put together by Catholic Church. Is the Catholic Church the Church that follows the principals set forth by Christ"

- Well aside from the child abuse, yes. All christians follow the teachings of christ, that's the basis for being a christian.

"Who is the judge of what makes a great person? You cannot I cannot know what is in there heart"

- Well perhaps you can't but I certainly can. It's pretty obvious to me that hitler wasn't a great person. Maybe you need someone to explain that to you, but thankfully the majority can decipher this on their own.

"Anybody can go through the motions, becoming a Child of God begins with Hearing the Word of God, Believe, Repent, confess, and be baptized. If you skip the first three are you saved?"

- Ok and how can a sociopath not accomplish any of these "redemption prerequisites"??

"If human slavery was present and history shows that more than likely it was it was written for both."

- Of course human slavery was present, it still is today.

"1Tim was written to those "under yoke" which implies labor or servitude. Those under "yoke" were respect their "masters". Christ did not cancel these obligations but seeked to strengthen them. Basic rules of labor."

-Hmm, so American slavery and the absolute torture of the african slaves, jews, and the poor young girls sold into global sex slavery, etc. These absolutely monstrous atrocities were/are simply "Basic rules of labor"? Wow, O.K. then. Statements like this make it a no brainer as to why some actually need their morals written down for them. Just sayin

"If you are in debt you are a slave to the lender. Unless your self employed you are a servant to your boss. If you sign a contract you have obligations to uphold."

- I have to disagree my friend, you are party to a contract not a slave. You made a conscious choice to enter an obligatory agreement Slaves don't have options. It's either obey or be beaten or killed. Your analogy is way off my friend. For instance, did the American slaves enter a "contract" to labor themselves to death and be tortured? I think not.

"Did Christ Condone mistreatment of people for profit?"

- Absolutely, what do you think the basis of slavery is??? Profit of course. What was the point of american slavery? To support the American and in particular the souther economy, why do you think there was a civil war?? To keep slavery for monetary profit going. They wanted to keep implementing the as you said, "basic rules of labor", labor for what? For profit, what else?

The answers to all of your questions about god are very simple to find. Read the Bible Quit relying on other sources for information on what the Bible says or means How can you decide whose is right in a debate if you don't about the subject. How do you know who is telling you the truth the world is full of spin. You cannot let any one tell you what the bible means with out getting their opinion If you really want to know the what,when,where and why you must read the Bible yourself. My wife came to me about a year ago she had been watching a film about the banned books of the bible. She didn't think it was right someone had banned books from the bible. I tried to explain why those books to no do not belong in the Bible with no success. She had never read the Bible despite being saved and a christian. All she has been relying on was preachers and study groups so she was not getting the whole story. Just bits and pieces and with others opinions as to what it means. So finally I told her until she read the Bible and she read the banned books she would not ever understand why they were banned. She has since started reading the Bible and now we can have conversations about the word of god instead of what she heard from this or that. If you really want the truth then read the Bible yourself. If you don't read the Bible and relying on what you watch and hear for information on God. You are basing the most important decision in your life on inaccurate information and bias And if you are not willing to read the Bible then you do not have the right to form any opinion about God.

Ok, so in other words, the bible is true because it's the word of god, and the word of god is true because it's in the bible. Harry potter is true because it's the word of harry potter and the word of harry potter must be true because it's in harry potter. See how that doesn't logically add up my friend?

bald1 · June 23, 2012

Witch hunt murders were carried out man not God."