When Another Christian Hurts You

[MyLadiesDaddy]

As a minister of the gospel of Christ, I have the responsibility of proclaiming the Word of God (Jn 1:i) and the word of God (2Tim 4:1-5) to individuals and groups seeking truth. At other time it is with the intent to silence such individuals because they do lead individuals and whole families away from the faith (Titus 1:10-14). There are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers in the world. Some openly and publicly proclaim their rebellion against sound doctrine and against the deity of Jesus as LORD of lords or that He is not God come in the flesh.  When such individuals who believe their error to be true, continue to try and lead people into their unbelief,  then I will continue in a kind and loving way to counter their "untruths" with truth. When  they stop, so will I.  

But in this case with the dinar community, I do intend to "stop beating a dead horse."  Actually, I thought this thread was going to end the discussion, but it continued.  Therefore I also continued with the discussion as well.  My part will end with this post.  

I do have one more thing to state.  Faith/belief is based upon facts and evidence, considered and reasoned through, and then a decision is made in regard to the evidence.  Faith is NOT WITHOUT evidence.  To believe something without evidence is not faith.  Be careful what you believe based on just a desire, or story, or emotions without the "evidence" of things not seen.  I believe that Jesus is LORD and GOD because of the Scripturally revealed evidence, the evidence of nature, and personal experience.  The deity of Christ is not a "myth" or "twisting of Scripture" as Fly has indicated.  I am sure, without a doubt, of who He is.  His being GOD from eternity is clearly evidenced from Scripture. My belief will never change on that point.  The Godhead has given proof by His resurrection (no one has ever been raised like Jesus) from the grave.  The Christian's faith is anchored by that fact.  It is this FACT AND FAITH that one believes to be a child of God.  Without out that FAITH based in FACT one is not a child of God.

My brother, I do hope that you didn't take my statement personal.

I too have carried on in this thread. However, I doubt fly's

desire or ability to receive truth.

As you eloquently put it, it's time to move on.

Tip hat

[Nelg]

My brother, I do hope that you didn't take my statement personal.

I too have carried on in this thread. However, I doubt fly's

desire or ability to receive truth.

As you eloquently put it, it's time to move on.

Tip hat

Not at all, brother!  I just used your statement as a place to jump in and make my closing remarks.  

I take nothing "personal" on these posts. On the posts about religious things, or better, things of faith, I don't expect people to always agree.  We need the know why we believe and these post help to hone the reasons for belief.  However, their are things that are basic and foundational to Christianity: the deity of Christ is THE foundational pillar.  To reject Him is to reject God.  Therefore the persistency in my posting.  

It is time to move on . . . hopefully we will meet after the Rv. See you on the "other posts." (No need to answer this one.)

[Fly]

Good afternoon, evening, or morning Fly. 

I would like for you to consider the following information concerning the assumption that Christ or the Word was a created being. 

When explaining the natural realm’s ability to support life, especially human life, requires extreme levels of complexity and design, then would not the cause of all this complexity and design need require a cause that is even greater than Him? 

Or, as an atheist put it, “who designed the Designer?” 

In the case of the Christ or that he was created must be seen in the light of a “beginning of time and space.” In a nutshell, today, physicists across the philosophical spectrum acknowledge that the space-time theorems are unassailable. If the universe contains mass and if general relativity reliably describes the movements of bodies in the universe, the theorems are valid. Those theorems establish that space and time had a beginning at the origin of the universe. They imply that the causal agent of the universe is not subject to space and time—thus, that agent can create space-time dimensions at will.

Of course, any entity—such as the universe and everything subject to the laws and dimensions of the universe—that is constrained to a single dimension of time, where time cannot be stopped or reversed, must have a beginning. Ultimately, such entities must be traceable back to a creation event. However, an entity not constrained by time need not have been created.

The Bible declares in multiple passages that God, the Word or Christ, created time (e.g., John 1:3; Colossians 1:16–17). No matter how it is stated, you and I both admit that the Word created all things. The Word being the Creator would be outside the “time-space” dimension. Psalm 90 adds that God can arbitrarily compress or expand time as we know it. In the book “Beyond the Cosmos” (3rd edition), the author presents diagrams illustrating that this compression and expansion of time is only possible for beings with access to the equivalent of at least two dimensions of time. Scripture declares that God has no beginning, no ending, and is not created (Psalm 90:2). These declarations could be true only of a Being who created time, rather than one who is subject to time. Christ is before the beginning of time-space and matter, for He was before all things (Colossians 1:17; John 1:1) and is eternal (John 7:24; Isaiah 9:6). 

God is in a different category than the universe or humans in that He is not subject to the physical laws of the universe or to its space-time dimensionality.

For a more thorough answer to this question, I suggest reading Beyond the Cosmos, Third Edition, by Hugh Ross. 

My conclusion is that Christ, the Word, is not a created being for his existence is “with God” and before the creation of anything. 

Enjoy.

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?app=members&module=messaging&section=view&do=showConversation&topicID=83003&st=0#ixzz3ilKHx7x4

 

(Nelg) Good afternoon, evening, or morning Fly.

 

Greetings.

 

(Nelg) I would like for you to consider the following information concerning the assumption that Christ or the Word was a created being. When explaining the natural realm’s ability to support life, especially human life, requires extreme levels of complexity and design, then would not the cause of all this complexity and design need require a cause that is even greater than Him?

 

Mans physical thinking and false teachings combined together, to create a belief/faith that Jesus Christ is the sovereign ruler over all creation the almighty God, and/or that Jesus is part of a trinity (three in one God), what’s new?

 

The Word, or Lo’gos, was God’s only direct creation, the only-begotten son of God, and evidently the close associate of God to whom God was speaking when he said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” (Ge 1:26) Hence John continued, saying: “This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”—Joh 1:2, 3.

Other scriptures plainly show that the Word was God’s agent through whom all other things came into existence. There is “one God the Father, out of whom all things are, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are.” (1Co 8:6) The Word, God’s Son, was “the beginning of the creation by God,” otherwise described as “the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.”—Re 3:14; Col 1:15, 16.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004625

(Nelg) Or, as an atheist put it, “who designed the Designer?”

In the case of the Christ or that he was created must be seen in the light of a “beginning of time and space.”  In a nutshell, today, physicists across the philosophical spectrum acknowledge that the space-time theorems are unassailable.  If the universe contains mass and if general relativity reliably describes the movements of bodies in the universe, the theorems are valid. Those theorems establish that space and time had a beginning at the origin of the universe. They imply that the causal agent of the universe is not subject to space and time—thus, that agent can create space-time dimensions at will.

Of course, any entity—such as the universe and everything subject to the laws and dimensions of the universe—that is constrained to a single dimension of time, where time cannot be stopped or reversed, must have a beginning. Ultimately, such entities must be traceable back to a creation event. However, an entity not constrained by time need not have been created.

 

Before creation Jehovah God was alone and complete within himself no need for anything else, but out of Love which personifies Jehovah God, God began creating. Jesus, being the first creation was created before space and time; the physical universe was created well after heavenly abodes and spirit brothers of Jesus (angels) Jesus being the arc angle.         

“After this I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! a fourth beast, fearsome and terrible and unusually strong. . . . I kept on beholding until there were thrones placed and the Ancient of Days sat down. . . . There were a thousand thousands that kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand that kept standing right before him. The Court took its seat, and there were books that were opened. . . . I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.”—Daniel 7:7-14.

Is there any other spirit son of God in heaven who is honored so highly as this one who appears in Daniel’s vision as “a son of man”? No! Who, then, is he? The psalmist identifies him.

 In Psalm 89:26, 27 he says: “He himself calls out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God and the Rock of my salvation.’ Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth.” This statement of Jehovah does not refer to King David, with whom God made a covenant for an everlasting kingdom in his royal family line, nor to David’s royal successor, Solomon. Neither of these kings were the firstborn sons of their fathers. (Psalm 89:28-37; 2 Samuel 7:4-17) The later facts show that Jehovah was referring prophetically to his own “firstborn” in heaven, the Son who had been with him for time indefinite before Jehovah God created man.

Naturally someone may ask, How could God have a “firstborn,” when He had no wife in heaven at that time? In answer to that question, the one who proved to be that “firstborn” speaks for himself. In the Bible’s last book, in Revelation 3:14, he says: “These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.” The speaker of those words was the resurrected, glorified Lord Jesus Christ, who is a “faithful and true witness” and who does not lie about the matter. He himself says he is “the beginning of the creation by God.” Hence God could have no wife before the one whom He created first.

Although he is a “creation” and not the child of a mother, Jesus continuously speaks of God as his own Father. (Revelation 3:21; 14:1) He also speaks of his Father as being his own God. In Revelation 3:12 he says: “The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and . . . I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God.” This agrees with what he said on the day of his resurrection to Mary Magdalene near the empty tomb: “Be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17) This was on Nisan 16, 33 C.E., the third day after he had cried out on the torture stake on which he had been impaled to die: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And, finally: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.”—Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; Luke 23:46; Psalm 22:1; 31:5.

 

(Nelg) The Bible declares in multiple passages that God, the Word or Christ, created time (e.g., John 1:3; Colossians 1:16–17). No matter how it is stated, you and I both admit that the Word created all things.

 

No! Not me; look at the wording of the text with open eyes, Gods Power worked through Jesus, all creation being for Jesus and through Jesus, ‘Gods word’ (voice/spokesman) Jesus, Jesus being a master worker, all creative power came from Jehovah God, Jesus’/our heavenly Father, almighty God.

 

 (Nelg) The Word being the Creator would be outside the “time-space” dimension.  Psalm 90 adds that God can arbitrarily compress or expand time as we know it.  In the book “Beyond the Cosmos” (3rd edition), the author presents diagrams illustrating that this compression and expansion of time is only possible for beings with access to the equivalent of at least two dimensions of time.  Scripture declares that God has no beginning, no ending, and is not created (Psalm 90:2).

 

Yes! God has no beginning; The Person Identified by the Name. Jehovah is the Creator of all things, the great First Cause; hence he is uncreated, without beginning. (Re 4:11) “In number his years are beyond searching.” (Job 36:26) It is impossible to place an age upon him, for there is no starting point from which to measure. Though ageless, he is properly called “the Ancient of Days” since his existence stretches endlessly into the past. (Da 7:9, 13) He is also without future end (Re 10:6), being incorruptible, undying. He is therefore called “the King of eternity” (1Ti 1:17), to whom a thousand years are but as a night watch of a few hours.—Ps 90:2, 4; Jer 10:10; Hab 1:12; Re 15:3.

(Nelg) These declarations could be true only of a Being who created time, rather than one who is subject to time.  Christ is before the beginning of time-space and matter, for He was before all things (Colossians 1:17; John 1:1) and is eternal (John 7:24; Isaiah 9:6).

 

After his (Jesus’) resurrection he ‘Jesus’ is now, eternal.  Immortality, incorruption, divine life. The Bible speaks of Jehovah as having immortality and incorruption. (1Ti 1:17) He has granted this first to his Son. At the time the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy, Christ was the only one who had been given immortality. (1Ti 6:16) But it is promised to others, those who become Christ’s spiritual brothers. (Ro 2:7; 1Co 15:53, 54) Also, these become partakers of “divine nature”; they share with Christ in his glory. (2Pe 1:4) Angels are spirit creatures, but they are not immortal, for those who became wicked demons will be destroyed.—Mt 25:41; Lu 4:33, 34; Re 20:10, 14; see IMMORTALITY; INCORRUPTION.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002739?q=Immortality+incorruption+divine+life&p=par

(Nelg) God is in a different category than the universe or humans in that He is not subject to the physical laws of the universe or to its space-time dimensionality.

For a more thorough answer to this question, I suggest reading Beyond the Cosmos, Third Edition, by Hugh Ross.

My conclusion is that Christ, the Word, is not a created being for his existence is “with God” and before the creation of anything.

 

Your conclusion; but, the scriptures say that he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:15,16) NASB

The scripture are telling us Jesus the word was the firstborn of all creation, not that he was “before the creation of anything”. God has no beginning and no end, although at some point God started creating, the scriptures make this clear and also made clear that Jesus was the first of God’s creation, his only begotten creation.

Wisdom personified. What is recorded concerning the Word in the Scriptures fits remarkably the description given at Proverbs 8:22-31. There wisdom is personified, represented as though able to speak and act. (Pr 8:1) Many professed Christian writers of the early centuries of the Common Era understood this section to refer symbolically to God’s Son in his prehuman state. In view of the texts already considered, there can be no denying that that Son was “produced” by Jehovah “as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago,” nor that the Son was “beside [Jehovah] as a master worker” during earth’s creation, as described in these verses of Proverbs. It is true that in Hebrew, which assigns gender to its nouns (as do many other languages), the word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender. This would continue to be the case even though wisdom is personified and so would not rule out wisdom’s being used figuratively to represent God’s firstborn Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” (1Jo 4:8) is also in the feminine gender but that does not make God feminine. Solomon, the principal writer of Proverbs (Pr 1:1), applied the title qo·he’leth (congregator) to himself (Ec 1:1) and this word is also in the feminine gender.

Wisdom is manifest only by being expressed in some way. God’s own wisdom was expressed in creation (Pr 3:19, 20) but through his Son. (Compare 1Co 8:6.) So, too, God’s wise purpose involving mankind is made manifest through, and summed up in, his Son, Jesus Christ. Thus, the apostle could say that Christ represents “the power of God and the wisdom of God” and that Christ Jesus “has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom.”—1Co 1:24, 30; compare 1Co 2:7, 8; Pr 8:1, 10, 18-21.

 http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002451?q=What+is+recorded+concerning+the+Word&p=par    

Enjoy.

Nelg

 

You dishonor the true God Jehovah saying he is not the sovereign ruler over all creation, and that Jesus is not his only begotten first born son, who God voiced his own approval saying: my son. You dishonor God saying he did not out of his for Love mankind allow his only begotten son to be put to death for mankind’s sake. You dishonor both Jesus and God worshiping Jesus worship due to his Father Jehovah God.     

You dishonor Jesus saying he is almighty God; Jesus was ever conscious of exalting the Father and subordinating himself to Him, he repeatedly spoke of himself as “God’s Son,” even his enemies acknowledged this. You dishonor Jesus saying it’s not of his own freewill that he willfully lift the safety of his heavenly home, placing his own self at risk to provide the ultimate sacrifice for mankind.      

 

I am not of the anointed; my hope is of everlasting life here on a paradise earth, you are not of Jesus anointed brothers, if you were you would already know the things I share that I learned by Jesus brothers, which I would have learned them by you but I did not, I learned them by Jesus brothers– Matt 25:40.

Just wonder of those who continually feel a need to say for themselves; I am full of Holy Spirit, or, I am filled with the Holy Spirit. How many times did Jesus make the statement of himself, or the apostles, or decuples? Undoubtedly they humbly recognized Gods Holy Spirit at work in their lives, but do not believe they continually attributed this to themselves. Even those, through whom power of the Holy Spirit was availed to others, did not need to say for themselves; I’m filled with Holy Spirit, I wonder why those do today?

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007561?q=full+of+holy+spirit&p=par#h=12                           

 

Truth is, Jesus’ return will not be seen by human eyes physically; another of many false teachings and beliefs, you don’t believe this because your beliefs are based on mans physical thinking, not born to a heart thirsting for true spiritual understanding. Jesus’ return already happened many years ago when his rule began as King of Gods heavenly Kingdom, there’s a year and, an account recorded in the scriptures. Here is the problem mans physical thinking is, that, seeing is believing, so satan the devil made available this false teaching, belief (among many others) all the earth will see Jesus return with their own eyes– so, I told you so’s to “none believers” and justification for believers– a perfect ploy, because all satan cares about is that as many as possible lose, which both in this case lose. It’s not about winning for satan but how many he takes with him into destruction– death, death being the opposite of life. So you are, bound, and determined, for staying the course of your redemption, but this is your redemption the physical thinking of men, and not the true God’s purposed redemption for mankind. So what’s missing– Jesus’ return is seen by spiritual eyes through the heart– the mind’s eye, and not by physical eyes– as it has already taking place in the year 1914 C.E. and yes, the destruction of this, satan’s, system of things is drawn very near, for just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be– Matt 37-39.

 

 Every one of your beliefs expressed thus far is adopted straight from Christendom’s bag of tricks, the most reprehensible part of Babylon the great, the world empire of false religion. Why the most reprehensible? Because of the oppression, murder and lies in the name of Jesus, need any more be said? Most reprehensible!          

You cannot see it now but perhaps someday maybe, if you can allow the last 5 months to be as a lesson for you, as you won’t lesion to truth, You hate Truth, because Truth exposes lies, normally, you, would not have God’s Kingdom message shared to an extent in which it has, evidently, every opportunity is being shown you. But, this is not the way of learning truth, there is no need to carry on this way further exposing falsehoods, because the honest hearted recognize this is not the way, the way of the true God Jehovah.   

 

Thank you for availing yourself, as the teacher for the moment, although consciously I can no longer continue with this.

 

May Jehovah’s peace and blessings be with all of you and yours.

 

Fly      

[Nelg]

"Therefore since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of god, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.  For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as LORD, and ourselves as your bond[servants for Jesus' sake.  For God, who said, 'Light shall shine our of darkness,' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." (2Cor 4:1-6)

 

"But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. And the LORD's sound-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition; if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will." (2Tim 2:23-26)  

 

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  By this you know the Spirit of God:  every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and  this is the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.  You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listen to them.  We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us.  By this we know the spirit of truth and the error." (1Jno 4:1-6) 

 

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.  this is the deceiver and the antichrist.  Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.  Any one who goes too far and does not abided teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds." (2Jno 7-11)

 

The Christ, the LORD, who came in the flesh to save mankind from sin and death and eternal punishment said, "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."  (Mt 7:6)