Obama, doctors and your guns!

[parmenio]

Obama: Doctors Should Ask About Guns in Homes

Wednesday, 16 Jan 2013 11:58 AM

By Jim Meyers

You’re visiting your doctor because you have flu symptoms. After checking your heart, pulse and other vital signs, your doctor turns to you and asks, “By the way, the federal government has authorized me to ask you, What type and how many guns do you have in your home?"

Sounds like George Orwell’s "1984"?

Wrong.

It’s 2013. And if President Barack Obama gets his way by executive order, doctors across the country could play a key role in his new gun control initiative.

Urgent: Obamacare — Find out the new rules before it's too late. Get the Amazon #1 bestselling guide — Go Here Now

On Wednesday morning, Obama released a sweeping 23 executive actions and orders he will take to limit gun usage.

Already, talk of the executive orders has raised significant controversy. Order 16, for example, may raise serious concerns with privacy advocates.

The order, as summarized, simply states federal agencies will “clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.”

In addition, a fact sheet provided by the White House with the order list elaborates: “Clarify that no federal law prevents health care providers from warning law enforcement authorities about threats of violence.”

The fact sheet continues: “Doctors and other mental health professionals play an important role in protecting the safety of their patients and the broader community by reporting direct and credible threats of violence to the authorities. But there is public confusion about whether federal law prohibits such reports about threats of violence. The Department of Health and Human Services is issuing a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits these reports in any way.

“Doctors and other health care providers also need to be able to ask about firearms in their patients’ homes and safe storage of those firearms, especially if their patients show signs of certain mental illnesses or if they have a young child or mentally ill family member at home. Some have incorrectly claimed that language in the Affordable Care Act prohibits doctors from asking their patients about guns and gun safety. Medical groups also continue to fight against state laws attempting to ban doctors from asking these questions.

“The Administration will issue guidance clarifying that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit or otherwise regulate communication between doctors and patients, including about firearms.”

In 2010, the Affordable Care Act, dubbed Obamacare, was passed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama. The law totals more than 2,700 pages, but also grants the president and federal agencies sweeping powers over healthcare. So far, more than 13,000 pages of additional federal regulations have been issued with more to come.

The National Rifle Association has long argued that doctors violate patients’ Second Amendment rights to keep and bear arms by asking about gun ownership.

A federal judge in July issued a permanent injunction against enforcement of a Florida law that would have prohibited doctors from asking patients about gun ownership in many instances, saying the prohibition impinged on doctors’ First Amendment right to speak with their patients about gun safety.

The law would have allowed physicians to ask about guns if it seemed relevant to a patient's medical care or safety — for example, if a patient was severely depressed or experiencing violence in the home.

Note: Should Obama, Biden Ban Semi-Automatic Guns? Vote in Urgent Poll

Six other states — Alabama, Minnesota, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and West Virginia — have considered similar legislation in recent years.

According to Kaiser Health News, the 2010 healthcare reform bill doesn't prevent doctors from asking about guns, but it does prohibit insurers, employers, and the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services from asking about gun ownership in many instances, and it prohibits HHS from collecting such data.

While revealing a summarized version of President Obama’s executive order Wednesday, the White House has yet to publish the full details and scope of the orders, including the one relating to doctors and guns.

[Sentinel7]

The only answer you should give is No I don't own any guns.

IF you give any other answer it will be used against you

If you act defensive or agitated it will be noted on your chart as Probable gun owner /Hostile

If you tell your Dr about your guns you might as well register them on a national data base.

If your Dr finds out you are a gun owner you may be dropped.( Happened In FL. )

They are going to try intimidation through humiliation and public stigma to get Americans to get rid of their guns.

NO Surrender No Retreat and NO Compromise

[Rayzur]

This kind of stuff is crazy making and shows you what happens when frickin idiots who don't know what they are talking about including idiot politicians, turn something totally bass ack ward, screw it up and then publish it as a whole different reality than intended.... Crazy making.....

First, Sentinel has it dead on, say no....... A doctor is not your priest nor is your doctor a Court Judge in front of whom you swore to tell the truth, pending charges of perjury if you don't. They are the frickin doctor....

As far as the report goes, if I didn't know better I would say its at least a spin, if not out and out psych ops kind of manipulation.... That or some incredibly stupid people are interjecting what they think the discussion is, and then some other stupid people are repeating it..... Honestly, I can't tell at this point if its a subconscious psych game.... or idiots are running rampant.....

Lets break this down a bit:

The order, as summarized, simply states federal agencies will “clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.”

In addition, a fact sheet provided by the White House with the order list elaborates: “Clarify that no federal law prevents health care providers from warning law enforcement authorities about threats of violence".

How clever is this wording.... Its like subtly suggesting to the doctor that they "should" ask about guns if they are a responsible or good doctor, and no gosh darn law can keep a good doctor from being a good doctor and asking about guns.... Clever guys... really clever.....

Here is what the discussion is really about in simple words, not spun or twisted, with no subtle innuendo as to what a doc should do:

I've underlined the ONLY key points in what should be clarified to everyone involved:

Some states like California have what is called Duty to Warn laws. These laws basically state that if your patient states that he/she is going to find person X and is going to hurt or kill person X (whether its with a gun, wooden stake, African spear, Alaskan tusk, or Russian poison).... if they state the intention to injure or kill an identified person, then the doctor is legally obligated to call law enforcement personally and make the report personally about the individual making the threat and the identified target of the threat. If the doctor does not do this, they can lose their license, pay heavy fines and even go to prison.... Very heavy penalties for not reporting threat of harm or death of an identified target. So if Sally comes in and says I am leaving here and I am going to go shoot John in the azz for cheating on me, then the doc has to call police and report Sally left threatening to shoot John in the azz. Now if Sally says, I am so mad at the IRS I could kill them all.... there is NO identified victim, there is no legal mandate /obligation to warn/report.

NOTHING in the Duty to Warn laws state that owning a gun carries any kind of inherent violence , much less directed toward an identified target.

Now in contrast, federal privacy laws for medical treatment (HIPPA) says you don't report anything. Everything is confidential and the privilege is carried by the patient, meaning the doctor can't break privilege and tell the police anything about that patient. I've actually argued with special deputy federal masters who said that federal law trumps state law and if a doctor reports to LE, then they are in breach of federal privacy laws (HIPPA), and therefor can be sued, lose their license, etc etc etc penalties for breach...

SO THE NECESSARY DISCUSSION IS:

Following state law in duty to warn (an intended victim of harm) is NOT in violation of HIPPA or any other federal privacy laws and the doctor is within the law for reporting.

To all the STUPID people who missed the point.... this has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with GUNS.

It doesn't really matter how the person intends to harm or kill the target, the issue is that they DO intend to harm or kill the target and reporting this to the potential target is NOT breaking the law... (okay beaming them up etc is a bit more difficult to sort, so lets stay with the everyday threats..).

That's all they frickin needed to say, .... and why they are dragging guns into the discussion is beyond me.... unless they are trying to warp present law, or put out the subtle suggestion that docs should ask about guns.. (see above)

Next paragraph of deception, spin, and subtle suggestion:

“Doctors and other health care providers also need to be able to ask about firearms in their patients’ homes and safe storage of those firearms, especially if their patients show signs of certain mental illnesses or if they have a young child or mentally ill family member at home.

Allow me to respond to this in a doctorly way.....

OMG.... Helllllll no.... let me say that again.... Hellllll no.....

1) dear Fed gov't don't you dare confuse me for a detective

2) don't you dare think I am stupid as you, in making an assumption that if there is a gun in the house, and someone in mentally ill (please define that for me)... that violence is automatic

3) dont you dare try to turn me into your freakin snitch, or do your frickin dirty work, or sign me up to patrol the streets for your agenda. Your agenda suks, its a false premise based upon a false foundation, and has nothing to do with my medical judgement regarding the patients health.

4) Are you gonna ask me to go check their houses for lead in the water next?

5) Dont you dare imply that I am as stupid as those whose vanity can be manipulated into doing your day'um dirty work. I am offended that your stupid writers appealed to my sense of rights, by saying it is an infringement upon my first amendment rights to not be able to talk to my patient. Are you really that stupid, or just that desperate to manipulate another cohort of eyes into the private lives of people

6) Dont you dare think that I practice medicine with the same integrity you are practicing manipulation. We've had centuries of experience determining risk, and your stupid guide, law or whatever you call it, should never be confused as a necessity to the practice of medicine. I don't need you to tell me what to ask. If I did, you should be very worried.

7) Did our forefathers, all game hunters, marksmen, sport shooters and gun owners in general remove all guns if there were young children in the house?

Are you aware that car accidents is the number one major killer of children under 14?????

Do you want me to find out how many cars are in the garage in households with kids under 14???

Some have incorrectly claimed that language in the Affordable Care Act prohibits doctors from asking their patients about guns and gun safety.

No they didn't. You are lying to make a point. Its called straw dog, you put something out there so you can refute it and make a point in the meantime. And if there was someone who claimed this, it was a politician, not a doctor. By the time we graduate and test, we're so frickin clear about the law, that we should probably practice law as a second profession. Who are the "some"???...don't make stuff up in attempting to manipulate doctors into saying why yes sireeee I can too ask about guns and gun safety..... Doctors are not confused. The stupid Bubba writing this is confused. Only an idiot does not know this answer... and if they don't they probably lost their license long ago, cause they were that filppin stupid.

BTW, why the helllll do you want a doctor to talk to someone about gun safety? Are you out of your frickin mind... In which class was this covered during med school.... or will this be a new CME requirement.

Does anyone really believe that doctors are the best profession to provide hunter and gun safety training??

Medical groups also continue to fight against state laws attempting to ban doctors from asking these questions.

You are lying through your teeth....WHICH group? None of the professional groups would be stupid enough to spend money thinking this was a fight.

And I personally want to meet the stupid Bubba who thinks there are doctors out there who really and truly want even more liability than we already have by now asking questions, that have no direct correlation in answer, but which if not asked, .. or even if asked but not reported (as being judged insignificant).... carries responsibility if something goes sideways. Please, you stupid Bubba, please show me the doctors who genuinely desire being the subject of multiple wrongful death suits, because they are now ordained by the federal government to ask about guns in "preventing" violence.

At this point I have a few questions for the stupid Bubba who wrote this: what are the penalties you have in mind if I don't practice medicine as you deem appropriate? If a child refuses to answer the non medical questions about their parents ownership of guns.... to what degree do I apply pressure to answer if they refuse? Do I refuse treatment, bribe them, or make all treatment dependent upon their cooperation. What do I put on the form if they tell me to mind my own business. They are correct. Are you going to punish them for this answer, or do I have to come up with some kind of system? If they answer no, but I think they look like they do own guns, should I cross out their answer and put in mine? Are you going to subsidize my malpractice insurance and will the attorney general's office handle my defense? I am after all practicing at the direction of the federal government. And are you going to subsidize my income when my practice dies because no responsible gun owner in their right mind is going to show up at my door?

And can someone please find a stupid person to ask why in the frickin sam hill does HHS need to compile stats on gun ownership???? These people are warping all that is sacred, and have lost their day'um minds...

[fastarnie]

I bet a lot of people say yes, and that is the sad truth. I bet some doctors get crafty on how they ask these questions. Most likely through storytelling. Easy way to get people to open up.