NEODinar

Lol! Detroit, was this an experiment to see if you could break the negs per post record?? This is republican city bruh. Don't fret though my friend, Obama has it in the bag again.

<br /><br /><br />Lol! True that my friend, true that.

<br /><br /><br />"Why do people believe/pray to a deity? When you boil it down, basically 2 reason float to the top: 1. So that good things happen to you, or atleast no bad things. 2. To obtain an afterlife in the presence of the Deity and friends/family. Agree?" - Agreed, except I would add that people pray for others as well, not just themselves. "Funny isn't it, that one word is so hated by Americans, and especially here on this site, but...its a proven fact, socialist are happier than capitalist." - Lol! completely agree. Somehow the idea of working for the greater good and happiness of all a countries citizens is somehow a negative, go figure. "Why is that? Well, they no longer have to worry about keeping up with the Jones, they all share an excellent standard of living. They don't have to worry about health, state medical services are provided. They don't have to worry about being able to send their kids off to a good school..again because it is paid for. They get a min of 6 weeks of vacations a year, and numerous holidays, like 15ish. They only work 32-35 hrs a week and have endless sick leave. And yes, of course they pay higher taxes, but that is OK...because everyone is HAPPY. Guess what happens when everone is happy, crime goes down. Why steal, you don't need to, as you have everything you need for a good life. " - Makes perfect sense and is backed up by the stats. "Now here you sit, happy, well educated, in good health,low crime area...and if something bad happens, you know society will step in to help you out. So, in this case, what would you pray for? There isn't a need for Mr. Skyman to take care of you, because you take care of your neighbors and they take care of you." - People pray for all types of reasons, I don't think being socially content necessarily means people won't pray. Content or not, believers will always have something to pray on. For instance, they might pray to stay socially content, or they might pray for others who aren't, or as I have been told numerous times over the course of this thread they will pray for the faithless etc. Believers pray because they have faith, and faith is a crutch for most people. They rely on it to get them through tough times, they rely on it for security, comfort, reasoning, etc. Thats why for instance you ironically find many blacks who are strong believers as there is a link between oppression and religion. ironically they hold on to the crutch that very people who enslaved them forced upon them. This is how powerful a crutch it can be. So in these countries that have high rates of happiness, it seems one could claim that in certain instances being content can deter one from needing the comfort crutch of faith. So essentially I'm saying what you are stating but just boiling it down a bit further past just prayer to belief itself. " And of course now that you are highly educated, you know about how evolution works, and how Christianity is really a spin off of many pagan religions...oh and that Emperor Constantinoble basically used it as a social cohesive device to united the Roman Empire. Had his mother, a camp follower not "taken up" with some Roman soliders, Christianity would have been just another footnote in world religons. But I digress and may be approaching overload for those folks that aren't open minded." - yeah I would tread carefully, you might just be asking for the wrath lol! Agreed, to most open minded individuals such as you and I, it's obvious that religion was constructed as a scare tactic used to keep social order. I mean take the story of jesus, there have been so many other nearly exact savior tales that came well before the christian savior story ever occurred. I mean it's so clear that these are simply a combination of rehashed tales from older religions. To us and other non believers it's clearly man made. "So why yes, you are correct, atheist societies DO have lower crime rates, but I think if you match their form of government up, you'd see that there is a high correlation between socialism, low crime rates and atheism. I rest my case." - New Zealand, Hong Kong, Japan, Czech Republic, Belgium, France, Russia, Slovenia, Germany, South Korea, UK, Hungary, Bulgaria are all non socialist countries with the highest rates of atheism and either very low rates of crime or simply lower crime rates than the U.S. So I agree that socialism can be a crime deterrent, however the stats clearly show that a case could be made for atheism as well. Sounds like the ultimate combination for a peaceful happy country would be a mixture of socialism and atheism lol! One can dream. Good talks Black Swan. Have a great weekend.

<br /><br /><br />"Uncirculad, I think the title of this thread, "Science must destroy religion" is more a statement of the atheistic or militant unbeliever agenda than it is of time when they surmise will happen." - Naw my friend I think that's just christian fundamentalist paranoia. It's not like you'll ever have to worry about atheist armies coming to forcefully convert you, I mean it's not like we're christians or anything. "Religion, Christianity in particular, is a threat to them and therefore must be destroyed." - Naw, Religion, isn't a threat to atheism, it's a threat to humankind, therefore it's being destroyed by it's own fallacies as evidenced by the statistics. People now have access to more information outside of their once sheltered religious environments, hence some are now choosing to exercise their logic. No "militant agenda" just a natural progression my friend. "Of course, they have been trying since day one, and it's not going to happen." - You sure about that? I mean you can keep telling yourself that, but the evidence would suggest otherwise. Agreed it took a while to gain traction, but thanks to the information age and new communicative technology Atheism has become the fastest growing group in the country. Looks like reason is finally starting to catch on here in America. "God: Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit is eternal. His kingdom is eternal. Saints (Christians) are eternal. The eternal cannot be destroyed." - You could be right, but the evidence and stats show myths can most certainly be destroyed. Just look at greek mythology, No one believes in zeus anymore, recent religions will follow suit in the near future, it's simply inevitable my friend.

<br /><br /><br /> - Yes I did read the links, did you read the link that refutes your link? Listen, I don't think creationists have accurate data to support their claims. If they did you would be able to simply bring my peer reviewed data from credible scientists that have claims that are accepted by the scientific majority. So far you haven't been able to do this, so right off the back I'll be skeptical of your findings if they are creationists findings because much like using scripture as evidence which btw you also throw at me constantly, they are simply not credible to the majority of the scientific community. for instance, you could send 100 links stating that man and dinosaur coexisted. I will never accept that because no credible scientist ever would because all respect, it's just laughably absurd, and every non creationist and even MOST creationist scientists would disagree with that claim. You are aware that many christians now accept evolution and the true age of the earth right? Even the catholic church believes in evolution for heavens sake. Join the bandwagon of reason my friend. "From what I’ve heard, according to the Muslim faith, they’ll give you an opportunity to convert to their faith, if you refuse, they’ll kill you." - Ok fair enough and I agree with you, I think the koran does mention killing infidels, however the bible mentions killing all enemies of christ so whats the difference? The Spanish Inquisition, the crusades, the with trials, the genocide of the natives. These were all murders committed by christian hands as punishment for not accepting jesus. So all i can ask is why are you throwing muslims under the bus, when christians aren't very dissimilar? The koran and the bible both preach and condone similar evil acts. "A Muslim doesn’t care about you or your soul" - And what are you basing this very prejudiced sounding assumption off of? If spreading "the word" equates to the caring of christians, then muslims are no different considering there are just as many muslim missionaries as there are christian missionaries. probably more so now as evidence by the higher numbers of muslim converts. "A Christian does care about you, that’s why they’re taking their valuable time and willing to suffer your wrath and rejection, to tell you about Jesus and what Jesus has done for ALL of us. " - And atheists do care about you, that's why they're taking their valuable time and are willing to suffer the intellectual wrath and rejection, to tell you about logic and what reason can do for mankind. Take care my friend.

<br /><br /><br /> - I hear you friend, however I am unable to rationally add much if you simply pull the "well the bible says so" card. cant really debate that. "Do you have evidence in Unicorns?? Something that is not written in a Fiction book?" - I don't, and that was my point. Do you have evidence for god? Something not written in a fictional book? If the bible is your evidence I guess not really. Take care

<br /><br /><br />"NEO . . . what in the world has happened to you to harden your heart toward God? You must have suffered great losses!" - Sonnet, buddy, what has happened to your softened brain? You must have a mental illness or suffer from delusion. Of course I don't really mean this Sonnet, but I said these things to give you an example of how claiming non believers are somehow damaged is insulting and simply not true, and one could easily say the same for believers. In fact the FACT that the vast majority of violent criminals are believers is just evidence that those who have faith are more likely to have "hardened hearts" or be sociopathic. Stats rarely lie my friend. "It is very simple . . . God is a JUST God and His justice will come, one way or the other! It is either when we repent and the price has been paid by the Cross or His judgment will come! Simple!" - Well apparently it's not that simple to all the non christians who don;t believe this. Just saying. "Just because you do not choose Him, does not mean that you will not be judged by Him." - Agreed, however unlikely it is, it's possible I could be getting judged right now, but just because you choose to believe this, doesn't make it true. It's also possible you an I are both being judged by Allah so technically we're in the same boat. "you are walking around with every sin that you have ever committed on your back! It is HEAVY!!! But those of us that have accepted Him . . . we are free!" - Well i don't believe in the biblical sense of "sin" and the supernatural punishment that follows so I feel no weight. One could just as easily say you are walking around a slave to a mythical tyrant who keeps you inline through fear and manipulation. Atheists don't have this, so not only do they not have the burden of "sin" since we don't believe in it, but we also don't have the burden of the fear of god. Nothing could be more freeing than that my friend "The words that you speak just find a rocky, hard spot in us and can not take root ." - I agree somewhat, people are set in their ways my friend. Not everyone will be able to unshackle themselves from this mythology, but some are mentally strong enough to see that there is no rational in their faith. This is evidenced by the ever growing numbers of non believers. Non belief is growing much faster than christianity my friend, so apparently the word is taking root. The country will be nearly 50% atheist by 2040, if the growth rate stays the same. That is HUGE!!. "you see, you bring them forth to stir up strive but it just brings all of us together . . . even to pray for you." - The only ones that seem to be flustered and angered by all this are believers, if you guys are so comfortable in your faith, why join the discussion at all? Just sit back and turn the other cheek right? "God gets a bad rap so many times for things that He does not do!" - Not for the things he does, for the things he condones, orders, in his books etc. god doesn't actually do anything because he's non existent imo. "Be not deceived ; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap. Galations 6:7" possibly, but I'm not afraid to take that gamble, it's just one the added freeing benefits of not fearing a vengeful entity. "At any rate, we have no animosity toward you . . . because you see, we pray that God will send us the captives, the brokenhearted, the sick . . . so here you are and we are here to reveal the Father to you! " - Nor I towards you, hopefully logic and reason will reach you one day, because it's not too late for the broken minded and mentally ill to be saved from their delusions. Many people are finally waking up and seeing the light, hopefully you will too one day, so here you are and we are here to reveal logic and reason to you. Take care

<br /><br /><br />So your god was just "purifying the godless" ? well Let me then ask you my friend what do you consider to be " godless"? Branching further, what was it about the people that god executed that made them "godless"? There was another man who believed in ethnic cleansing as well. His name was hitler.. Now I'm sure you, like most logical thinking decent human beings would consider hitler monstrous and completely immoral. With all respect to you my friend, what is the difference between hitler and your god when it comes to "cleansing"? What is righteous about burning innocent women and children alive, enslaving your fellow man, genocide and ethnic cleansing and rape, what could possibly be "righteous" about any of this ATHIM? "Is a war moral and ethical?" - Imo, sometimes, but it's completley dependent on the circumstances. "Sometimes for the greater good, one has to carry out the unwanted." - Agreed "War is moral when society condones it as such." - Well simply because a society condones war, doesn't necessarily mean it's a moral war. Look at the war on Iraq, imo, that was an immoral war, however it was backed by our society. Well at least our politicians lol! "Sometimes the motives are righteous, sometimes they are not." - Agreed "With God though, His motives are always for a righteous purpose, i.e. our return to relationship with Him." - I disagree. There is nothing righteous imo, about condoning evil acts. "by human measure it seems that God allowed immoral, unethical and godless atcs, but in the larger scheme of things, prior to the incarnation, it was as neccessary as building a road before you can drive on it, and the road that was built was the highway to heaven." - The nazi's made similar excuses for their evil acts as well. To them the extermination or "cleansing" of the jews was necessary for what they believed was the greater good. God does the same but you are unable to apply the same logic you would to a human dictator to your celestial dictator. "PS I was joking about Elvis." - I got ya, how can anyone not like Elvis right? "man it would be easier to have these discussions face to face" - If this thing ever RV's, beers are on me, would love to chop it up face to face. <br /><br /><br />"No matter how much I love them if per say one day they took someones lifes they would probably get life or the death penalty, my love couldn't change the consequences of their actions no matter how I would wish different." Ok, so now hypothetically, if your children killed someone, would you personally be able to kill your children for that crime. You mention prison and the DP, but could you personally carry out the sentencing? Now I ask if you love your children unconditionally and yet you had the power to burn them forever, would you burn your children if they chose not to believe in your god? I know that your god would, but I am asking you as an unconditionally loving parent. Would you burn your own kids for simply not having faith, even though they could be the greatest children on earth? They didn't commit any crimes against humanity they simply exercised their "free will" and used their logic. could you personally condemn them for this?

<br /><br /><br />"NEO you are always saying 'your God' like He is only certain people's God.." - Bama, I don't believe in god so it makes no sense for me to state he's my god. Think of this way, you are an atheist in regards to every other god except the christian god so would it be reasonable for a muslim to claim that Allah is your god simply because they believe Allah is the "one true god"? Of course not. "well He is your God too and He loves you as much as He loves me or any other believer, you just choose not to accept His love…" - If god's love is so potent, why is it conditional? If I may, do yo have children? If so, is your love for them conditional or unconditional? "I pray one day you will seek Him and He will reveal Himself to you... with love my friend. " - And I hope one day you will be able to free your mind my friend. Take care

<br /><br /><br />"God does not promote, God did however set forth certain laws for the people to live by." - Just semantics on my part, excuse me, condone. "Punishment for disobedience he did condone. It was for breaking the Law God set forth that punishment was to be carried out. If God set forth the Law then God could set forth the punishment." - I hear you, so then do you think for instance the murders of all those innocent women during the with hunts were justified? "We are to use this not to live by (NEW TESTAMENT NOW) but to study to not repeat the mistakes constantly repeated by Judah." -Really? The seven deadly sins are in the first testament, do you not adhere to those? Many christians do. Even within the new test jesus condones slavery and in fact has specific instructions regarding the handling and payment of slaves. Do you then condone slavery yourself? I'm guessing not. "The good thing about God is that he offers forgiveness." - Except after you die right? The forgiveness option apparently has an expiration date huh? One can apparently be a terrible person their entire life, then on their death bed simply get forgiven and all is well. Meanwhile one could be a great person and not except jesus and not receive the option of forgiveness after death. Doesn't make sense that god would punish good people and bless horrible people who simply say "forgive me" at the last minute. Just seems pretty immoral imo. <br /><br /><br />Agreed my friend, it completely boggles my mind, yet I find their beliefs and the reasons they lay out for them utterly fascinating. <br /><br /><br />If in the end nothing matters, why have faith to begin with?

<br /><br /><br />"Before I provide my input, I have to say I for one appreciate the effort and stance you are making. Not sure if you will have any great success but the intellectual stimulus that you are pushing the believers to impart with is noteworthy. Just be leery and don't let anger replace that intellectual prowess that you have. Most of these people are good people and enjoy a bit of honest probing. It’s when the closed minded ones show up and start spewing “my way or you will burn” dogma that this type of debate rapidly loses its intellectual appeal." - Thanks, just throwing in a different perspective, agreed most here, believers and non believers seem to be good people, the ones that simply throw stones I don't take seriously I just try and keep it light and keep it moving. "With that said, I first would first like to embark on the bigger question, that is: Is man basically good or evil?" "I've come to the conclusion that man is basically lazy and self-promoting. He (not she mind you) will for the most part, take the easy way out and almost always ask the question (even if it is subconsciously): what’s in it for me?. Of course you do have the two tails of the bell shape curve, the sociopaths and the saints, but most of us, just go with the crowd and not clean up our dog’s poop when no one is looking." - As cynical as that sounds, I have to agree except why the emphasis on "he" and not "she"? Are you implying women do not possess such traits? i personally think it's a mixed bag, and it seems that there are 3 types of people, sociopaths and those with extreme social disorders whose brains are simply wired incorrectly rendering them unable to view ethics and morality in a way the majority would. Then you have the "saints" Those that supersede what most of us wish to morally aspire to be. Think Mr. Rogers, Lol! Not that i knew him personally but if there's a heaven i think that man went first class. Then you have the rest of us that fall somewhere in between, neither psychos nor saints. We are social animals and just like our ape cousins we can be very deterministic and opportunistic. It's in our nature as primates to be self promoting, aggressive, petty, conniving, selfish, adherent, etc. Although these traits can be negative and for the most part are, exceptions excluded. I feel these traits extend to most human beings in a minor way. For instance it's not uncommon for people to as you said not pick up after their dog, or tell white lies, ask what's in it for me etc. But these are minor transgressions for the most part imo and don't necessarily equate to what most people would consider "evil", so I can't really use these common animalistic traits as support to claim that man is basically evil. The fact that for the most part human beings generally socially get along and respect each other globally is evidence imo that humans are innately good unless psychological factors and or external environmental factors interfere. "And yes, lawyers, doctors, successful businessmen and elected officials often frequent these establishments. And to pass the time, and of course to potentially increase my tips, I would engage them in intellectual debates such as this." T - lol, yeah gentleman's clubs always seem to transcend social class barriers don't they? Can't knock your hustle in the least Black Swan, question is, if you knew your tips wouldn't increase would you still engage in conversation? Or was your initial thought the "what's in it for me" thought? "Now saying that, I also have dated several “minorities” and in these “worlds” that white people are normally not aware of, the world revolves around the chance of getting caught. Risk and reward play heavily." - Perhaps it's a cultural difference but I am failing to understand what you're getting at here. What does dating a "minority" have to do with risk/reward and chance taking? Are interracial relationships risky in New Zealand or something of that nature? "So it seems to me, that society at large basically will stay in line IF they think that they will get caught. And religion, by its very nature is the ultimate Guy in the Sky watching you." - Well again, I have to disagree, the statistics simply don't support this theory my friend. Forgiveness and redemption give believers a loop hole to basically do as they wish without fear of punishment from god, most believers don't use this loop hole, but as the stats show certainly the majority of the worlds criminals must. On the other hand, faith can cause people to commit crimes so you have to factor in all the crimes committed in the name of religion. I think that religion could disappear tomorrow, and crime would either stay the same or drop. Of course Jmo, but this is also evidenced by the ratio of belief and crime rates amongst different countries. As I mentioned, new zealand has an incredibly high rate of non believers, yet their crime rate is drastically lower than the U.S. If faith was a crime deterrent wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that countries with the least faith would have the highest crime rates? The fact that the opposite is true certainly implies at least to me that the ultimate guy in the sky real has no dramatic effect on crime. Good talks Black Swan. <br /><br /><br />There really is no logical answer to this one it seems. I'm stumped as well on this one my friend. Just seems like it would be so much easier for an all knowing god to simply create everything correctly in the first place. Makes no sense. <br /><br /><br />Well opinions vary my friend. take care

<br /><br /><br /> - My bad Dhr, I don't feel I have "berated" anyone. I haven't maliciously attacked any members. Meanwhile I have been told by believers here that I am literally going to burn in H etc. Yet somehow, this is more acceptable to you than some harmless sarcasm and non disparaging banter? I don't take it personal, why are you?? If I have offended you or any other believer here, I sincerely apologize. It was not my intention, I'm just a sarcastic person I guess. Just curious, why when i make an atheist post do you not get on the believers when they respond to me in jest or tell me I'm doomed? Why is it a one way street? "Also, judging by the rhetorical title, I would imagine the OP is implying that maybe we (as believers) should be more concerned with our relationships with God as opposed to wealth from an investment. Therefore, your point is moot." - Fair enough, I stand corrected, you're right and it appears we are in agreement. Mazel Tov!

<br /><br /><br />What happens if the muslims are right?

<br /><br /><br />"There it is. You never believed faithfully, you were shallow from the start (Read the Parable of the Sower)." - Well thats an interesting pov. Hmm, so is every non christian simply "shallow"? So all the muslims, all the hindus, all the, buddhists, all the jews, etc, we are all just "shallow" because we don't believe what you do? Ummmm, ok "God made man with his own hands, apart from the primates which he spoke into existence that is why humans are infinitely above primates, God made it so. " - Well the evidence contradicts that but you're free to believe as you wish. "Death my friend is coming. I have absolutely no fear. You will wish there was nothing after this, but clarity is coming." - Well anything's possible however laughably absurd it may be. "I love Elvis, back away from the king!" Lol! Now I'm hating on Elvis all of a sudden? I just can't win with you mate. Later

<br /><br /><br /> - Hey Black Swan Simply search "Matt Dillahunty destroys theist" on youtube to get the debate. "I sincerely believe that the fear of hell and/or absence of God's love does keep a lot of believers to toe the line. Also, offering eternal life probably helps." - If this were true, then why are the vast majority of violent prison inmates around the world believers? Just look at New Zealand for instance, you have one of the highest rates of atheism/agnosticism, yet you're ranked 25th on a national crime scale. Now take the U.S. Arguably the most religious country on earth and we're ranked number 1 on the national crime scale. The stats overwhelmingly show that faith is no crime deterrent. Think about it, why would any believer have a fear of god when they can simply ask for forgiveness and instantly be redeemed for whatever crime they may comimit? As far as the new test goes, watch this debate, you might just change your mind.

<br /><br /><br />"Now you will turn that around into "I believe in magic" or give me some type of vocabulary lesson." - Where do you get that from? I never said you believe in magic Shabbs. Although now that you mention it. Water to wine, walking on water, talking snakes, miraculous healings, etc, all sounds like pretty magical stuff no?? "Faith is what it is and I have it in bunches. - Fair enough "You say God "condones" murderers. I don't see it that way. " - Because you simply choose not to. It's right there in print my friend. Here is one of numerous example passages. "Leviticus 20:10 NLT), "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." How in the world does this not condone murder? If you want to attempt to interpret this in some other fashion be my guest but it's pretty clear. "The day of reckoning will come to those who do not heed the word. It is spelled out for us. Believe or don't believe." - Possibly, although I have no reason to believe this so it doesn't concern me in the least. "why you insist on questioning those that don't think like you boggles my mind. For what reason? What's in it for you?" - Because it's interesting to me, simple as that, you felt compelled to join the discussion as well so apparently it interests you as well. Why must there be something more in it for me besides enjoying a simple debate? "Do you belong to some sort of atheist club, which gives out merit badges for baiting followers of Christ?" Atheist club? Now thats a great idea Shabbs. Perhaps if I formed one I could go door to door or embark on conversion missions much like your fellow believers do, don't worry though, i don't think we'll be as brutal should you choose not to agree with us. In all seriousness c'mon Shabbs, Chill out, this isn't like you, are you having a bad day or something? Usually you're open to debates regardless of topic, I mean you must realize how many people post religious threads here right? And likewise you can see right in front of you how many believers have tried to convince me and the tiny minority of non believers here of their positions as well right? So why in the world are you singling me out? It sounds to me like you're simply getting a bit flustered for whatever reason. Relax, it's just a discussion my friend, i'm sure your faith is still strong. "I respect you as fellow poster and concede your right to an opinion. I just feel this entire thread is nothing more than fishing for an argument" - I respect yours as well Shabbs but how are my posts any different from the many believers who post religious threads, or any other poster who posts things that other people may not agree with? That's the purpose of open forums. You say "argument" I say debate" I'm not disparaging anyone by questioning their beliefs. If Iv'e somehow personally offended you with my harmless opinions I apologize. "I will not go any further, nor will I respond to any questions. I don't have the biblical vernacular to spar with you. I believe in the Father, Almighty and His grace......that is enough for me. Have a great day Neo. " - Fair enough friend, you believe and I don't believe. Have a good one as well. Take care. <br /><br /><br />So you're cool with genocide then. alright good to know. <br /><br /><br />Give him a chance he grows on ya lol!

<br /><br /><br /> - Nadita, my friend, if you're not avoiding the question why haven't you answered it? Do you think Condoning murder, rape, genocide, etc is morally good???? I'm not asking you why your god promotes it, I'm asking YOU personally if you think it is morally right to condone such things?? I am asking you to step out of the box for just a second and answer this question as a moral human being. "Why does He allow murder, rape, hunger, genocide, etc...? I don't know if I were God, I would have told you so" - Well the bible does give us reasons why god does bad things for instance, Exodus 22:17 NAB, You should not let a sorceress live, this passage was responsible for countless innocent women and children being buned alive at the stake. My question to you is do you think the deaths of these innocent women were warranted as they were ordered by god?? Yes or no? Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins, do you think it's reasonable for god to order overweight people to be put to death? Of course you could say well they could just ask for forgiveness, but do you think they should have to? Is being overweight such a crime that it deserves eternal hell fire?? "I guess I am just an emotional being that logic doesn't quite make sense to me but yet what is faith..? it's something that you believe even if you don't see it.. just like when you fall in love...you can't logically explain love but you feel love you feel good inside, you are mesmerized when you think about the one you love.. that is it for me " - Being an emotional person can be a good thing Nadita but you should try and sprinkle logic in there here and there for symmetry and completeness. I, unlike you tend to be more logical than emotional, and that is something that I need to work on for my own personal growth. In the end Nadita if faith makes you a good person and happy, that is what counts, I just hope you can one day reach an understanding that faith isn't required to achieve such things. You may be surprised how much more happiness mental freedom can provide. "This I know so far about you, I believe you are a wonderful person that have been hurt and very angry about God. You think He was not there for you that's why the thing happened to you, just know He loves you very much so do I don't want to debate with you about faith because it's something that you have to feel and believe just like love but if you want to talk, I would be happy to talk to you as a friend" - I know you absolutely mean well Nadita, but please understand that it can be insulting to assume that if one lacks faith, they are somehow emotionally damaged or just mad at the world. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is a common misconception that many believers have about atheists. My lack of belief is strictly based on the lack of evidence and my ability to be happy without such beliefs. some believers can see that the bible really doesn't make sense like you for instance, that's why imo you have such a difficult time answering these questions because it's hard to give justifications for some of the bad things god condones, so you revert back to the emotional stance of "well faith just makes me feel good", and that's fine if you happen not to care if what you believe in is actually true or not. Many believers are too fearful to free their minds. They are so conditioned to believe that they will burn for using their "god given" brains that they simply displace their logic. That's why many believers have inner struggles battling with their faith, and many non believers feel a sense of mental freedom as they are emancipated from this fear. "just know He loves you very much so do I " - If he loves me, why would he burn me for eternity? Why is his love conditional? You state you love me and aww blushes, thats sweet, but if you had the power to burn me forever, I highly doubt being the sweetheart that you seem to be you would do such a horrendous thing simply because I am a skeptic, but yet your god would. Does this make you more morally sound than your god? I sure think so. Great talks Nadita. Take care

<br /><br /><br /> - Heavy, I never stated god does any of this, I only stated that he condones and promotes it. It's right there in black and white. Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT, Exodus 22:17 NAB, Leviticus 20:13 NAB, Leviticus 20:27 NAB, Exodus 21:15 NAB, Proverbs 20:20 NAB, Leviticus 20:10 NLT), Leviticus 21:9 NAB, Exodus 22:19 NAB, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB), etc. These aren't my empty words, these are the words of your god my friend. "Boy after that statement you made if that is your thinking i would hate to be in your shoes when you meet him. " - You are just furthering my point of how petty, vengeful, and evil your god can be. You're telling me that your god will punish me for exercising my "free will" and intellect that your god supposedly bestowed on to me. Why would a morally good, all loving god deliver such a punishment for such a mundane finite crime? I haven't committed any crimes against humanity, my only "crime" is thinking for myself, and yet it's logical to you that that deserves an eternity of hell fire and torment? How can you say such things without deeper introspection?

<br /><br /><br /> - Wait, wait, you've avoided the question Nadita, I'll ask again, do you think condoning rape, murder, genocide, intolerance, etc is morally good?? Yes or no?? "Do not forget that we also have the enemy named satan who was created by God to worship Him but yet because of his pride and wanted to be above God, God has to kick him out of heaven and he rules in the earth that's why there is always bad and evil in this world." - Sure, I've heard the story, thing is, if this were actually true or at least to make the story seem somewhat logical, wouldn't it simply make more sense for god to just destroy satan. If he is "all powerful", why not just eradicate satan and evil all together?? In conjunction, wouldn't an OMNISCIENT being know that his creation lucifer would turn against him? How is it that an all knowing being continuously fails at making "proper moral creations" when he is aware of what they will do before he creates them? Thats like someone purposefully building faulty automobiles. Can you understand the lack of logic in that?? I seriously appreciate your honesty Nadita, and it's good that you unlike many other believers can admit that there are things about your faith that are unknown to you, thats a step in the right direction. Having said that, you must think that murder is wrong correct? And you believe the word of god through your experience to be absolutely infallible, and yet your god condones murder. How can you rationalize this in your mind? You seem to be taking the less intellectual approach and basing your answers off of emotion, You are using the good ol "god works in mysterious ways" loop hole. The only reason believers need this loop hole is to justify the blatant evil deeds their god is promoting?? Ask a believer why god does good deeds and they will have a list of answers, ask them why he does evil deeds or condones them, and they have but one, "He is mysterious". This simply isn't good enough for people who think critically about religion.

Wait so who do you love again? Lol! JK, On a serious note I think our monetary gain would be the least of any divine being's worries, ya know, considering there are bigger priorities in this world. I would think a god would stop genocide before he made millionaires out of dinar holders. JMO.

<br /><br /><br />So you think condoning murder, rape, slavery, intolerance, etc, is morally good?? Because that's what the biblical god does and as you said he is a man of his word. If you state "god won't go against his word" then naturally you must believe that all of the grotesque morally corrupt passages are somehow morally good. How do you work that logic out in your experience with god? Sure I hear you "free will", he doesn't twist anyone's arm he just threatens them with eternal hellfire for finite crimes. Ya that's much "kinder"

<br /><br /><br />Lol! Apparently you missed the video then Shabbs. Good day to you as well my friend.

Here is an interesting, reasonably short debate on the topic. This is a great call in show for both believers and non believers. My apologies I don't know how to upload the vid directly to the post so the link is below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LpLOoyuup4

<br /><br /><br />"I cannot comprehend that originating source or the hows & whys of it." -Then why believe in it? "I don't believe we will ever be able to comprehend all of that with our physical brain because each question you come up with from the physical point of view just raises multiple more questions." - Again, then why believe? "Religions are sort of a paradox. They have been created by man to control other men. To get them to do what that particular religion wants them to do. This works good in order to keep social order in a lot of societies. However, when religion replaces the individual's freedom to think for oneself and tries to put itself over another it becomes a drag on a person's spiritual growth." - Agreed with everything accept the spiritual growth part, why is "spiritual growth" necessary? what do you mean by "spiritual growth"?? "I know that there is much more to life than just the physical world for I have been out of my body in full awareness and I know there are vast planes that vibrate at a rate higher than the physical that we are unaware of when we are in our physical bodys. " - How do you know this? Many shaman preach the same things after feeding people potent psychedelics. For instance the consumption of DMT is known to to produce a transcendental experience so powerful many claim they have entered the 4th dimension. I'm not in anyway implying you used psycho active methods to induce your experience, for instance some claim similar experiences through transcendental meditation alone. If I may, were you sober when you had these experiences? If so, how did you achieve them? You seem certain of your experiences, but how can you claim for certain that it was a supernatural experience and not a natural experienced produced by your brain alone and in no way connected to the "spirit world"? The power of delusion and persuasion can be very strong. Some people claim they have been to hell, heaven and back, people who have had NDE's often experience a transcendence and white light which we now understand to be a typical hallucinogenic phenomenon that occurs when one is dying. "Science is slowly catching up with a lot of the sages in that they are opening doors to the higher states of consciousness." - Agreed, but how are "higher states of consciousness" the same as "spirituality"? Is it simply semantical? How does having a heightened state of consciousness equate to a spiritual realm of some sort when consciousness is a very real part of the natural world. "That is probably so for a lot of people but there are a whole bunch of us that know we will leave our physical body in our astral body and go to another destination where we will continue to live." - And why do you believe this? Because you've had a transcendental experience? How does having such an experience lend any credence towards an eternal or non eternal after life? "I have experienced that blinding white light that Saul of Tarsus experienced on the way to Damascus. It is truly life changing when you experience it and not just sing about it. It is indescribably beautiful." - So how does experiencing a blinding light support the spiritual world and or afterlife? The sun is a blinding light and superbly beautiful and the soul reason there is life on earth, yet the sun is not evidence for anything supernatural or spiritual, it's but one of billions of stars. "The Bible, the Koran, and all of the other books of the major religions are good books for one to live by but when one starts to try to force others to live by them one has switched from love to power and this is spiritual terrorism." - Have you read them? If one doesn't cherry pick these books, they promote murder, rape, slavery, intolerance, etc. When you eliminate all the bad from these books we're basically left with the golden rule, which everyone should naturally follow. Unless one picks and chooses, these books are completely morally corrupt and would never be followed by any decent moral person. "As long as a religion helps one grow spiritually, it is probably a good religion for one." - Again, that would be complexity dependent on the subjectivity of "spiritual growth". Some people's idea of spiritual growth is martyrdom, some people feel spiritual growth is achieved through traveling to peru and paying $500 to trip out on ayahuasca in a dark cave for 2 days. So since spiritual growth is subjective, seeking it and or "experiencing" it has no bearing on weather a particular religion is good or not. That's strictly based on the individual not the religion. However, the quest for "spiritual growth" could possibly lead an otherwise good natured person to blow themselves up or set themselves up a blaze in the quest for this spiritual awakening depending on what religion they adhere to and their own definition of "spiritual growth" "When it no longer is, one needs to find another one that better fits one's state of consciousness for he has outgrown the one he is in." - Why jump from one dysfunctional irrational belief to another, why not just simply not believe?? Seems the simplest most logical approach.

<br /><br /><br />"Evidence of the Red Sea Crossing including Columns erected by King Solomon. http://www.arkdiscov...ea_crossing.htm" - Not accepted by mainstream science, and of course another creationist site. Here is but one of MANY sites that contradicts your information...http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/chariot-wheels.htm "So finding the tomb of King Herod, the ruins of Jericho, Soddom & Gomorrah, King Solomon's Stables, isn't credible evidence? Oh and let's not forget the Red Sea Crossing in the link above." - No, it's not credible evidence. The thing that you are failing to realize is that even if these findings supported NATURAL historical events in the bible, which still remains inconclusive, they would in no way be evidence for any of the supernatural events. It's not logical for example to say "see they found ONE OF MANY ancient tombs so now the tales of zombie saviors, talking snakes, and magical arks must be true. That's simply not rational my friend. "Definition of Faith is: confidence or trust in a person or entity" - Well that's the beginning that you've copied from wiki, now below, here is the rest that you conveniently left out..... - Faith is confidence or trust in a person or entity.[1][2] Depending on the religion, faith is belief in a single god or multiple gods or in the doctrines or teachings of the religion. Informal usage of faith can be quite broad, including trust or belief without proof,[2] and "faith" is often used as a substitute for "hope", "trust" or "belief". Some critics of faith have argued that faith is opposed to reason. In contrast, some advocates of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence. This is exemplified by attitudes about the future, which (by definition) has not yet occurred. Logical reasoning may proceed from any set of assumptions, positive or negative. In this view, faith is simply the selection of a positive assumption. "The dark ages and crusades were at a time when the Bible wasn't available to the everyday man. I'll propose to you that these atrocities were done in the name of Christianity by people who weren't Christians. What better way for Satan to thumb his nose at God than to use his name to commit those atrocities. Satan is a master deceiver." - Well that's your proposition, but it's not very logical. Christians also used the bible to condone American slavery, the slaughter of the natives, and the burning of women which was much later than the dark ages. So what you're attempting to claim is that the people who follow god's law to the tee and actually commit the heinous crimes that god commands in the bible are simply not true christians? Well aint that just the typical christian loop hole. "If you were a believer, (Catholic right?) like you said you were, you would know that No Christian can "force" another human being to believe in something they don't. I'll argue that a person that believes they can force someone to become a Christian isn't a Christian or has no understanding of the Christian Faith. Perhaps you are talking about the Muslim religion? " - Huh? Catholic? Where did you get that? I was never a Christian, I was a deist meaning I simply believed in a god. How are muslims any different than christians in terms of indoctrination and brainwashing? Have you ever seen the documentary jesus camp?? It borders child abuse. Yeah christians don't force there religion on anyone LOL! You can't be serious. I have never had a muslim come a knocking at my door, cant say the same for christians.