Wanting Legolas opinion

[4given2]

Hey Legolas, if you are still around, what has your research told you about the CBI and whether or not it is recirculating Dinar, or actually pulling any off the streets.? I tend to side with you on the fact that there is over 27 trillion Dinar out there, and if they are not pulling any in, then are they just recirculating?

[jmw]

you are correct...the monthly financials of the CBI make it easy to verify....they can't hide that much dinar.

[4given2]

you are correct...the monthly financials of the CBI make it easy to verify....they can't hide that much dinar.

Hmmmm, I really am not smart enough to try to make sense of their monthly financials, but if they are not actually pulling any in, then how can I think that they are getting close to any possible RV? To me it just doesnt make sense???

[GotSix]

Hmmmm, I really am not smart enough to try to make sense of their monthly financials, but if they are not actually pulling any in, then how can I think that they are getting close to any possible RV? To me it just doesnt make sense???

Monthly financials what are you a shareholder of the CBI .....your statement makes as much sense as their yearly audited financials

[4given2]

Monthly financials what are you a shareholder of the CBI .....your statement makes as much sense as their yearly audited financials

As a matter of fact I am........ Just sent an employee to cash some Dinar out. He only had 1 armored car with him tho, so hopefully he makes it ok.

[speculatorsRIDE]

you are correct...the monthly financials of the CBI make it easy to verify....they can't hide that much dinar.

Unfortunately, I am unable to note any sarcasm in this statement. If you are serious in this statement, then I must ask are you serious? The monthly financials of the CBI and statements from the GOI of Iraq are suspect at best. There is no way that either entity is being straight forward and honest IMO. Why should they? No government or government agency ever reveals the truth to the world, only what they want the world to believe or know is revealed. You must learn to read between the lines.

[seetrader1]

Unfortunately, I am unable to note any sarcasm in this statement. If you are serious in this statement, then I must ask are you serious? The monthly financials of the CBI and statements from the GOI of Iraq are suspect at best. There is no way that either entity is being straight forward and honest IMO. Why should they? No government or government agency ever reveals the truth to the world, only what they want the world to believe or know is revealed. You must learn to read between the lines.

[seetrader1]

.

Edited January 10, 2012 by seetrader1

[jmw]

Hmmmm, I really am not smart enough to try to make sense of their monthly financials, but if they are not actually pulling any in, then how can I think that they are getting close to any possible RV? To me it just doesnt make sense??? :blink:

Monetary Aggregates

This link is to the CBI website....if you go to sheet three it will show their M2 money supply in billions...M2 is basically the amount they have in currency and bank deposits.

[Legolas]

Hey Legolas, if you are still around, what has your research told you about the CBI and whether or not it is recirculating Dinar, or actually pulling any off the streets.? I tend to side with you on the fact that there is over 27 trillion Dinar out there, and if they are not pulling any in, then are they just recirculating?

Hey 4given2. Apparently this is the ONLY topic I'm allowed to post in now, but I'll be happy to answer it here. I think by now everyone knows that the purpose of the auctions is to "stabilize" the rate which has been locked at 117o for several years now. They do that by moving Dinars in and out of the market. Even with 27-30 Dinars (total) in circulation, they could not remove "trillions" as claimed in the article and continue to function. I'm not even sure that it would be possible to REMOVE that much from circulation in such a short period of time. The Iraqis generally don't trust banks, and even if they did, why would the surrender Trillions of Dinars. Further, if the Dinar is actually set to "RV" in the near future, imagine the anger on the streets of Iraq if they had surrendered trillions of Dinars which are suddenly worth trillions of DOLLARS. This also begs an answer to the most important question in this speculation:

I’ve asked the question dozens of times at DV and other sites over the past couple of years, and it has been sidestepped virtually every time, no matter how it is asked or approached. I’m sure that every reader knows that this is the issue of the dreaded “LOP; Bunny Ear; Re-denomination; Re-monetization; RD, etc.” Inquiring minds want to know. I'll ask it once more, and we'll see who steps forward with a logical answer.

Readily accepted and audited figures of the CBI, listed by the IMF, World Bank, and CIA Fact Sheets indicate that there are at least 27 TRILLION Dinars in circulation – quite possibly more. Every economist that I’ve read has indicated that regardless of what the actual number is, every Dinar in circulation, upon RV, assumes the new value, whether it be $1, $1.17, $3, $4, $8, or whatever number the Guru of the day claims it will be, meaning that those Trillions of Dinars instantly become Trillions of DOLLARS. The Dinar has a value of less than 1/10 of a penny, so a 1:1 RV (without RD) results in an increase of 1,000 times its current value – more depending on the RV amount.

The data shown below is approximate, but appears to be reasonably accurate for purposes of comparison. Most importantly, note the GDP’s and M1’s of the listed countries. The U.S., for example has a GDP more than 180 times that of Iraq, and produces approximately the same amount of oil. Without going into a great deal of detail, it’s pretty obvious that a revaluation of the IQD to even $1.00 would instantly give the country with one of the lowest GDP’s in the world more MONEY than exists in the ENTIRE world.

U.S. Kuwait Saudi Arabia Iran Iraq

Current Valuation: $1.00 $3.66 .27 .00009 .00086

GDP: $15 Tn $136 Bn $622 Bn $819 Bn $82 Bn

Per Capita GDP: $47,200 $48,900 $24,200 $10,600 $3,800 Site is screwing up the columns, so u'll have to realign them to read the chart

Approximate M1: $1.9 Tn $18 Bn $166.9 BN $50 Bn $35.6 Bn

Oil Production: 25 mpd 2.5 mpd 9.8 ,mpd 4.2 mpd 2.5 mpd

How can the IQD be revalued to $1.00 (or more) without FIRST removing the three zeros, or “re-denominating” as has been done numerous times in similar situations around the world, and has been repeatedly indicated to be the intent of the CBI in hundreds of articles over the past couple of years? Removing the three zeros, or lopping, before revaluing would instantly reduce the currency in circulation from the estimated 27-30 TRILLION to 27-30 BILLION – a figure which would then be reasonable in comparison to other countries worldwide. This action would also immediately increase the VALUE of the IQD to .86 cents, or nearly on a par with the U.S. Dollar, and higher than all but one country in the region, in addition to simplifying accounting and commerce in the Iraqi market. This is in all probability what the articles mean when they refer to "increasing the value of the Dinar." Removing the zeros does that.....on paper.

Even if the RV were to increase the value by only 100 times – to .10 cents, as suggested by Adam Montana, wouldn’t it STILL amount to more money than is possessed by any other country, and how could it logically occur? If a country can arbitrarily increase the value of its currency by 1,000 times its current value, why has it never been done before, and why wouldn’t EVERY country experiencing financial difficulty (including the U.S.) do the same thing?

Many have suggested (without evidence) that the numbers in circulation have already been drastically reduced, and/or that Iraq is for some inexplicable reason, lying about the numbers. But no matter what the real numbers are, unless they are in fact BILLIONS rather than the many Trillions which is quite obviously the case, isn’t the RV we’re all hoping for still virtually impossible after analyzing the numbers without the RD occurring first? If not, then how? NO COUNTRY has EVER done it. Why? Many have RD'd, and Iraq has repeatedly referred to them as examples of their own intent.

Then there’s the extremely important question of the lower denominations. Logic would dictate that the smaller notes would have to be in place and ready for immediate distribution everywhere when the RV or RD event finally occurs. The mechanics of that distribution would be extremely difficult, and the security required would be substantial to put it mildly, not to mention the very strange phenomenon of an individual having possession of a 25,000 Dinar note, (or much more) which is worth $22 one day, and suddenly $25,000 the next, and the chaos, not to mention the anger which would ensue when people realized that yesterday, they gave away hundreds of thousands of Dollars worth of currency at a rate which increased 1,000 times or more overnight.

I’ve seen two respected individuals on DV claim that the lower denoms would not be needed immediately – that they could in fact use “U.S. Dollars” to make change temporarily. Let’s think about that ludicrous statement for a moment. If even a 1:1 RV were to occur tomorrow, with no lower denoms available, and a person were to make a 1 Dinar ($1.00) purchase with a 10,000 Dinar note, the vender would have to have $9,999.00 in U.S. currency available to make change. Multiply that figure by the number of daily purchases, and the number of Iraqi Vendors across the country, and explain to me WHERE on earth they would get the TRILLIONS of of U.S. Dollars which would be required to make this happen, and even if they could, how could they possibly provide security to the thousand of vendors across the country who would each have to have hundreds of thousands of U.S. Dollars available with which to make change? I won’t mention any names, but that statement was so incredibly ludicrous that I couldn’t even believe they said it. Others have mentioned electronic cards, which is nearly equally untenable in a country like Iraq – or anywhere else for that matter. If there’s a plausible solution to these issues, I sure don’t know what it is. Perhaps someone else can explain.

[jmw]

Unfortunately, I am unable to note any sarcasm in this statement. If you are serious in this statement, then I must ask are you serious? The monthly financials of the CBI and statements from the GOI of Iraq are suspect at best. There is no way that either entity is being straight forward and honest IMO. Why should they? No government or government agency ever reveals the truth to the world, only what they want the world to believe or know is revealed. You must learn to read between the lines.

so your theory is that they are hiding 50 TRILLION dinar...and they have ernst and young on board to falsely list their money supply?....I'm sure Ernst and Young would risk everything to lie for Iraq....are you sure you aren't being sarcastic?

[4given2]

Monetary Aggregates

This link is to the CBI website....if you go to sheet three it will show their M2 money supply in billions...M2 is basically the amount they have in currency and bank deposits.

Yes I see that, also no clear or even any remote chance that they are pulling any in. Thats my question.

[jmw]

Yes I see that, also no clear or even any remote chance that they are pulling any in. Thats my question.

they do pull it in at auction...but then put it right back out plus some. there is nothing I can find anywhere to verify a reduction in dinar.

[GotSix]

so your theory is that they are hiding 50 TRILLION dinar...and they have ernst and young on board to falsely list their money supply?....I'm sure Ernst and Young would risk everything to lie for Iraq....are you sure you aren't being sarcastic?

Wrong theory on your end...read & really try to interpet the audited fiancials...."E&Y on board" .....they have simply disclaimed their way out

Edited January 10, 2012 by GotSix

[Legolas]

they do pull it in at auction...but then put it right back out plus some. there is nothing I can find anywhere to verify a reduction in dinar.

Correct JMW, and it's been occurring for years, with the numbers in circulation increasing every year.

[GotSix]

they do pull it in at auction...but then put it right back out plus some. there is nothing I can find anywhere to verify a reduction in dinar.

Check your pockets

[4given2]

Ok, I knew I could count on you Legolas!! When I read that it goes along almost exactly with what I have found out. I am all about math and numbers, and I am having a hard time with this. Just like JMW mentioned, there is absolutely no proof that any IQD is being brought in, without being recirculated, and even if there was, it would have to be at a breakneck pace.

I really appreciate you taking the time to post that. I know there is a lot of people who think that you are just pissing in their cheerios, but I personally dont like to be spoon fed. Give me actual numbers and facts, and I will base it off that. Not off someones "gut" feeling.

[Legolas]

Ok, I knew I could count on you Legolas!! When I read that it goes along almost exactly with what I have found out. I am all about math and numbers, and I am having a hard time with this. Just like JMW mentioned, there is absolutely no proof that any IQD is being brought in, without being recirculated, and even if there was, it would have to be at a breakneck pace.

I really appreciate you taking the time to post that. I know there is a lot of people who think that you are just pissing in their cheerios, but I personally dont like to be spoon fed. Give me actual numbers and facts, and I will base it off that. Not off someones "gut" feeling.

Thanks 4given2 - one would hope that "most" people would want to hear both sides of the debate, and most importantly, be allowed to examine the evidence and learn the truth. And for the record, I never solicited e-mail addresses. My post simply advised that IF the post was deleted, I would be happy to provide the link to anyone who left a message on my profile. FURTHER, if you read the site's "terms of service" (unless they've been changed since yesterday) the only reference to e-mails is a prohibition against "spamming" and I completely agree with that rule.

[GotSix]

Ok, I knew I could count on you Legolas!! When I read that it goes along almost exactly with what I have found out. I am all about math and numbers, and I am having a hard time with this. Just like JMW mentioned, there is absolutely no proof that any IQD is being brought in, without being recirculated, and even if there was, it would have to be at a breakneck pace.

I really appreciate you taking the time to post that. I know there is a lot of people who think that you are just pissing in their cheerios, but I personally dont like to be spoon fed. Give me actual numbers and facts, and I will base it off that. Not off someones "gut" feeling.

Dude...you got to be kidding me ....you sound like you're part of some freak'n sorority.....with your "thank you Legolas"...."thank you JMW"...(you left out a few others by the way)...you say you are "all about math & numbers" so you're actually relying on their financials

[dinarck]

Welcome to LOP section banishment Legolas. I for one am honored to be stuck here with you. Once again spot on. Simple common sense seems to be frowned upon but that is ok. The truth is nothing to be ashamed about. Thanks again for all you so skillfully bring to the table.

[4given2]

Dude...you got to be kidding me ....you sound like you're part of some freak'n sorority.....with your "thank you Legolas"...."thank you JMW"...(you left out a few others by the way)...you say you are "all about math & numbers" so you're actually relying on their financials

And what are you relying on?????? Their oil??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Im sorry, got carried away.

Yes, and we are in a sorority, sorry, you cant join. Must have some shred of common sense in order to join. Plus, they will miss you in Rumors..................

[umbertino]

Legolas .. Welcome back... Since it's ok to hope for something to happen... I do hope you'll be allowed again to post in any other section of the Forum and not only here...

[keepmwlknfny]

Monthly financials what are you a shareholder of the CBI .....your statement makes as much sense as their yearly audited financials

Ill ask you again since I guessed you missed it last time.....what were the reasons given for why the auditor couldnt give an unqualified opinion?? They do include those details in the report so what was it??

[dinarck]

And what are you relying on?????? Their oil??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Im sorry, got carried away.

Yes, and we are in a sorority, sorry, you cant join. Must have some shred of common sense in order to join. Plus, they will miss you in Rumors..................

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[speculatorsRIDE]

Hey 4given2. Apparently this is the ONLY topic I'm allowed to post in now, but I'll be happy to answer it here. I think by now everyone knows that the purpose of the auctions is to "stabilize" the rate which has been locked at 117o for several years now. They do that by moving Dinars in and out of the market. Even with 27-30 Dinars (total) in circulation, they could not remove "trillions" as claimed in the article and continue to function. I'm not even sure that it would be possible to REMOVE that much from circulation in such a short period of time. The Iraqis generally don't trust banks, and even if they did, why would the surrender Trillions of Dinars. Further, if the Dinar is actually set to "RV" in the near future, imagine the anger on the streets of Iraq if they had surrendered trillions of Dinars which are suddenly worth trillions of DOLLARS. This also begs an answer to the most important question in this speculation:

I’ve asked the question dozens of times at DV and other sites over the past couple of years, and it has been sidestepped virtually every time, no matter how it is asked or approached. I’m sure that every reader knows that this is the issue of the dreaded “LOP; Bunny Ear; Re-denomination; Re-monetization; RD, etc.” Inquiring minds want to know. I'll ask it once more, and we'll see who steps forward with a logical answer.

Readily accepted and audited figures of the CBI, listed by the IMF, World Bank, and CIA Fact Sheets indicate that there are at least 27 TRILLION Dinars in circulation – quite possibly more. Every economist that I’ve read has indicated that regardless of what the actual number is, every Dinar in circulation, upon RV, assumes the new value, whether it be $1, $1.17, $3, $4, $8, or whatever number the Guru of the day claims it will be, meaning that those Trillions of Dinars instantly become Trillions of DOLLARS. The Dinar has a value of less than 1/10 of a penny, so a 1:1 RV (without RD) results in an increase of 1,000 times its current value – more depending on the RV amount.

The data shown below is approximate, but appears to be reasonably accurate for purposes of comparison. Most importantly, note the GDP’s and M1’s of the listed countries. The U.S., for example has a GDP more than 180 times that of Iraq, and produces approximately the same amount of oil. Without going into a great deal of detail, it’s pretty obvious that a revaluation of the IQD to even $1.00 would instantly give the country with one of the lowest GDP’s in the world more MONEY than exists in the ENTIRE world.

U.S. Kuwait Saudi Arabia Iran Iraq

Current Valuation: $1.00 $3.66 .27 .00009 .00086

GDP: $15 Tn $136 Bn $622 Bn $819 Bn $82 Bn

Per Capita GDP: $47,200 $48,900 $24,200 $10,600 $3,800 Site is screwing up the columns, so u'll have to realign them to read the chart

Approximate M1: $1.9 Tn $18 Bn $166.9 BN $50 Bn $35.6 Bn

Oil Production: 25 mpd 2.5 mpd 9.8 ,mpd 4.2 mpd 2.5 mpd

How can the IQD be revalued to $1.00 (or more) without FIRST removing the three zeros, or “re-denominating” as has been done numerous times in similar situations around the world, and has been repeatedly indicated to be the intent of the CBI in hundreds of articles over the past couple of years? Removing the three zeros, or lopping, before revaluing would instantly reduce the currency in circulation from the estimated 27-30 TRILLION to 27-30 BILLION – a figure which would then be reasonable in comparison to other countries worldwide. This action would also immediately increase the VALUE of the IQD to .86 cents, or nearly on a par with the U.S. Dollar, and higher than all but one country in the region, in addition to simplifying accounting and commerce in the Iraqi market. This is in all probability what the articles mean when they refer to "increasing the value of the Dinar." Removing the zeros does that.....on paper.

Even if the RV were to increase the value by only 100 times – to .10 cents, as suggested by Adam Montana, wouldn’t it STILL amount to more money than is possessed by any other country, and how could it logically occur? If a country can arbitrarily increase the value of its currency by 1,000 times its current value, why has it never been done before, and why wouldn’t EVERY country experiencing financial difficulty (including the U.S.) do the same thing?

Many have suggested (without evidence) that the numbers in circulation have already been drastically reduced, and/or that Iraq is for some inexplicable reason, lying about the numbers. But no matter what the real numbers are, unless they are in fact BILLIONS rather than the many Trillions which is quite obviously the case, isn’t the RV we’re all hoping for still virtually impossible after analyzing the numbers without the RD occurring first? If not, then how? NO COUNTRY has EVER done it. Why? Many have RD'd, and Iraq has repeatedly referred to them as examples of their own intent.

Then there’s the extremely important question of the lower denominations. Logic would dictate that the smaller notes would have to be in place and ready for immediate distribution everywhere when the RV or RD event finally occurs. The mechanics of that distribution would be extremely difficult, and the security required would be substantial to put it mildly, not to mention the very strange phenomenon of an individual having possession of a 25,000 Dinar note, (or much more) which is worth $22 one day, and suddenly $25,000 the next, and the chaos, not to mention the anger which would ensue when people realized that yesterday, they gave away hundreds of thousands of Dollars worth of currency at a rate which increased 1,000 times or more overnight.

I’ve seen two respected individuals on DV claim that the lower denoms would not be needed immediately – that they could in fact use “U.S. Dollars” to make change temporarily. Let’s think about that ludicrous statement for a moment. If even a 1:1 RV were to occur tomorrow, with no lower denoms available, and a person were to make a 1 Dinar ($1.00) purchase with a 10,000 Dinar note, the vender would have to have $9,999.00 in U.S. currency available to make change. Multiply that figure by the number of daily purchases, and the number of Iraqi Vendors across the country, and explain to me WHERE on earth they would get the TRILLIONS of of U.S. Dollars which would be required to make this happen, and even if they could, how could they possibly provide security to the thousand of vendors across the country who would each have to have hundreds of thousands of U.S. Dollars available with which to make change? I won’t mention any names, but that statement was so incredibly ludicrous that I couldn’t even believe they said it. Others have mentioned electronic cards, which is nearly equally untenable in a country like Iraq – or anywhere else for that matter. If there’s a plausible solution to these issues, I sure don’t know what it is. Perhaps someone else can explain.

Legolas, well articulated and it makes sense. If you could explain, after they lop the currency down to just 27 to 30 billion, how they would meet 113 billion dollar budget as well as have billions of currency in the hands of the citizens for completing daily transactions in conjunction with the billions of IQD that will be needed to be spread throughout the world if the IQD becomes internationally traded? They will not be able to operate with just 27 to 30 billion IQD IMO.