THIS is what the Second Amendment is about.

[A.J]

Sorry, have to add one thing.

I'm not saying that having a gun doesn't detour criminals, that is so obvious that it is non debatable. What I am looking at, is the risk of allowing a society access to weapons unchecked. My stats prove that women and children die at a far greater rate in the US than in other western countries. Canada which has a very similar culture to the US, has 1/3 the murder rate that the US does.

So, what do we do as a responsible society? Why can't people own pepper spray, or tazers at home...and keep their firearms in an armory...to take out for hunting/target practice etc. Then everyone wins, right?

This Hitler quote is mystifying for me. Are you guys alluding to the fact that our military may turn against us? Or that some foreign invader will come to our shores? Either one is so ludicrous that I don't see why it would even be mentioned. Just saying

JUST REMEMBER THAT WHEN GUNS ARE OUTLAWED ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS NOW TELL ME HOW I'm GOING TO OUT RUN THAT BULLET WHEN IM TRYING TO PROTECT MY FAMILY WITH PEPPERSPRAY OR A STUN GUN?

[KiaKaha]

My 23 year old daughter was killed by a drunk driver 4 months ago... I still drive & own a car. Life would be difficult at best without the means of her being taken from us. Do I want a return to prohibition? No, I want responsibility shown by those who choose to take a drink with no designated driver.

Do I own a gun? No. Do I want one? Yes, most assuredly. I live in a very safe area, but have felt inspired for quite some time to purchase one... Or several... And when the rv finally happens, we will, along with a gun safe & concealed weapons permits.

And a new car.

God bless...

KK

[Resistall]

I'm sorry, I don't understand this question, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, so pls explain.

"If people are raised with better values and taught to respect elders, money, possesions etc., we wouldnt have the problems we do." Again, I totally agree. No argument.

But let's boil this down. People say guns don't kill people. Ok then why do England, Germany, & Japan all have significantly lower homicide rates than the US?

But they aren't like us....ok, then why does Canada, which IS similar to the US have such a vastly lower domestic violence?

You can argue all you want that gun control doesn't work, but it does. Less people die. (By the way, I've lived in all 4 countries, so yea, I have personal experience)

The argument then is well, it deters crime. Just knowing or possibly knowing that someone may have a gun will stop someone from coming in. Ok, fine. You win that point. But having that right also allows ANYONE to have a gun, which studies show will result in more violence against women and children. You can't argue that.

Are there alternatives? Yes...you can have pepper spray or tazers for home defense.

You can also have your firearms whenever you wish to go hunting or shooting....just like Canada. Just leave them at the armory at the end of the day.

As far as foreign invasion, Ok...I will give you that one as well, that is in the time of WWII. But honestly, which country would try that today against the US...seriously. Next, do you honestly think our military would turn on its people? If so, then we have a lot more to worry about than gun control.

Last but not least, I KNOW I can't win this argument. There is not a single person that I've convinced. You are welcome to your guns. But I think you are:

I believe there is a night and day difference between the countries listed and the U.S. Most importantly the way they deal with criminals, laws and punishment are not a climate controlled cell with cable tv, food, clothing etc.

I feel you have a history with either a close friend, family maybe yourself, none of my buisness, if so I have said a prayer for this circumstance, I can only hope some day things change and this world we live in is peaceful.

As for winning this...technically you have, you have at least got to publicly announce your opinion of which I respect just have a different opinion, I grew up a police officers son, my views and opinions are based on things I see and saw growing up

Best of luck to you, go RV!

P.S. This world is not gonna get better over night, I hope you consider some of the posts and articles outside DV, re-address your opinion, enroll in a self defense class and learn to protect yourself and your family as your fore fathers have protected our freedoms.

Because the ones you are concerned about are already carrying.

[Resistall]

And yes I can argue the fact if a gun is preseent increases chances of wrongful death, truth is in a heated domestic case, yes guns are mentioned first but in hand to hand close quarters or while someone is sleeping a simple butter knife will provide the same result. If a person is raging out of control, which if raised better would decrease significantly, in a state of diress will resort to anything to terminate what is "causing or inflaming' that anger source, gun or no gun.

No I'm sorry you will never win this difference of opinion, however, again we got to voice our opinions.

Have a good night/ day.

Your right about having alot more to worry about, there are new laws in legislation that will allow our government to send in military to our homes for incarseration, and as I understand, for apparent terrorist attempts, talks etc, of course thats just the beginning, snow balling from there to where? Remind you of anything......Hitler maybe? just food for thought, yes we have a lot more to worry about, the future of our children.

[Patriotic_mess]

THIS, people, is what the Second Amendment is about. It is NOT about hunting, it is NOT about target shooting....it IS about our RIGHT to defend ourselves, and our loved ones. PERIOD.

Our forefathers created the 2nd Amendment because they knew that an armed society would be a big deterrent to anyone trying to make the United States into something that they were so against. Yes it helps us keep our homes and families safe and I'm sure that was another reason they created it. This topic reminds me of a great quote from the third president of the United states:

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." ---Thomas Jefferson

b]”This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets willbe safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!”[/b] ~Adolph Hitler, 1935, on The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany

Sounds like something barry would say...

Again, appreciate that you are all being polite on this subject, I think in the past, this has been the number 2 source of negatives for me!

Although I disagree with you I appreciate the respectful attitude towards our opinions. I gave you a few pluses to help you out, although you might be disapointed to know that post RV I will be adding a LOT of firearms and ammo to my arsenal.

[GhostDawg]

This topic has been very interesting to follow thus far. Everyone here has brought a view that is similar but yet different from the one before, adding personal experiences, statistics, and some light hearted humor as well. Quite frankly, I feel that all of you have very valid points. However, there are a few things that I do not agree with as do some of you. For example, the Wyatt Earp reference, as fitting as it was to visualize a gun toting civilization in the old west being "disarmed" by request by a sworn law enforcement official when they enter town? That is no different than say the place I work at posting "Mattie's Bans Guns on These Premises". Do people follow that request? I for one do, as I follow the laws, however, just as in the "Old West", there are those that operate outside of the law and do what they choose to do. If there comes a time that I have to surrender my firearms because the 2nd Amendment is repealed/abolished, that is the day that I no longer cal the US my home.

The stories that were given here are all deeply moving, and very sad. The girl with the abusive boyfriend in Detroit, the girl slain by a drunk driver. All of those could have ended differently if different choices had been made prior to those events. The girl could choose to leave the abusive boyfriend, the drunk could choose to call a cab. In the end, it all comes down to choosing what to do. Finish the argument with words of apology, or escalate it to violence with a gun, knife, fists, bat, etc. etc.. I am not trying to single any one of you that posted on this out, or pick on anyone. This subject has been the center of many discussions with myself, family and friends. I fit into Tiff's category of gun owners, 39/prior military/own multiple firearms. The reasons that I do are because I can, legally, and safely as I have been trained properly as every gun owner should. As for the criminals, well we far outnumber them. And yes, it is sad that firearms are used in violent crimes, but that in itself is not justification to change the constitution that our founding fathers put in place for us to follow. It is a comfort to me and the people that I know that we, the United States of America, has the largest armed "militia" the world may possibly ever know. If fills me with pride that we could defend ourselves from an invasion and quite possibly kick the crap out that force. Why? Because of the 2nd Amendment. It is not only in place to allow us to bear arms, but also to do what? "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." That to me screams to protect ourselves not only from foreign invaders, but from our own government should the need arise.

"I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!"

[AKVET]

Tiffany and all others

I respect everyones rights to beleive what you will. I have 29+ years with the military and have owned weapons from the age of 12 and younger, presently I own 14 and plan on getting more after the RV. I have used these weapons for hunting and target shooting and would not have any problems with defending myself or my family, my wife retired with 33 years of military service and also knows how to shoot she has qualified expert same as my self with the .38 and 9mm. I have been in combat in Vietnam (north and south), will I give up my rights to own of use a firearm NO. There seems to be a lot of problems in the countries that have foresworn the use of firearms. I will agree that they are used in crime but so are knives and othe types of weapons form sticks to what ever. Is there a perfect solution NO and neve will be until all people learn to live in peace and all crime is abolished by everyone will this happen NO again the only perfect place that this will happen will be when God calls us all and sorts us allout to His design.

And I will give up my weapons when they pry them from my cold and dead hands.

[lomeygoat]

So Tiffany, I suppose a day out to the gun range is out of the question now?

Well if someone needs to defend them selfs, they could always use,

HARSH LANGUAGE

[Tiffany23]

So Tiffany, I suppose a day out to the gun range is out of the question now?

Well if someone needs to defend them selfs, they could always use,

HARSH LANGUAGE

Now Lomely...you know I have no problem with people owning guns...and it may totally confuse some of you but I actually own two myself, a 357 and a shot gun...both that I inherited from my Grandfather...who was an Gunny in the Marines during WWII and a professional cowboy...and yes, he did teach me how to shoot. And no, I'm not very good with either as they both have a bit too much kick for me.

Last night I went to my pub down the street and meant up with my gang...made up of Irish, Brits, Kiwis, South Americans and even Dutch. I told them about this debate I was having and they got quiet a kick out of it. They of course ribbed me about Americans being naturally violent and war mongers....but they all found the American stance on guns to be very foreign. Really....the way most of you feel about the right to bear arms is unlike how anyone else in the Western World does.

The ploy that some of you take saying that I should be wary and that I may have to use one, one day is again very foreign to the rest of the Western World. Of the 5 nationalities that I was sitting with, not one had ever been in a situation that a firearm was needed, nor did they ever know of anyone in any of those countries that needed one. Like wise, I've lived in 7 countries myself: US, Canada, Turkey, New Zealand, Germany, Japan and the UK....not once did I feel the need to have a gun for protection, nor have I ever ran into anyone that did. And to be totally honest, I felt the most threaten when I lived in the US...just knowing that someone else may be "packing" is a scary thought.

It all boils down to the fact that you have a constitutional right to bear arms and no one is going to take that away from you. That right is more important to you, than what the end results that it has on other parts of the US, places that you don't identify with. In addition, while, there are alternatives for home protection (including a dog), that doesn't appeal to you.

Again, I thank you fine Gents for not giving me negatives for bringing up a different point of view, as I do love a good debate among friends...and as they say, Happy Hunting!

Tiff:)

Edited January 7, 2012 by Tiffany23

[DinarMillionaire]

Tiffany, we all know you're well versed and have a more vast personal knowledge of other countries than most. As your latest post points out, people in other countries see the U.S. as "naturally violent and war mongers". I just wanted to ask you, out of curiosity... What do they say about us when there is a massive natural disaster, and people need help, anywhere in the world and Americans are generously opening their wallets and their hearts, more so than most countries? Do we get any credit for being one of the most caring, giving and generous nations on earth? Or are we just hateful warmongers, that, truth be known, as you probably already do, the American government and the American people, don't always see eye to eye on all matters concerning war. Hence, the popularity of Ron Paul. Thanks!

[Tiffany23]

Tiffany, we all know you're well versed and have a more vast personal knowledge of other countries than most. As your latest post points out, people in other countries see the U.S. as "naturally violent and war mongers". I just wanted to ask you, out of curiosity... What do they say about us when there is a massive natural disaster, and people need help, anywhere in the world and Americans are generously opening their wallets and their hearts, more so than most countries? Do we get any credit for being one of the most caring, giving and generous nations on earth? Or are we just hateful warmongers, that, truth be known, as you probably already do, the American government and the American people, don't always see eye to eye on all matters concerning war. Hence, the popularity of Ron Paul. Thanks!

DM..yes, in my experience we do get credit for being the world leader. In all of those countries I was made to feel welcome and people are very curious about the American way of life. But their understanding of America is tainted. Almost all of them believe that we live in the lap of luxury and can afford to spend millions on them...as they have been inundated by our TV programs for decades, after viewing Dallas, Baywatch, Friends...all of us must live in large houses, along the beach and be rolling in the dole. They think we live excessively. And they believe us to be personally both very friendly and very ignorant of the ways the rest of the world lives.

The older Brits hold a resentment that we entered the War (II) too late, took the best of their women home and helped the enemies (Japan and Germany) to rebuild and did little to help them. And yet they most understand and can relate to where we are at...that is a Superpower now that is starting to wane, similar to the British Empire in the early 1900s. They generally won't tell you any of this upfront as they are a very proud polite people.

Both the Irish and the Kiwis love Americans...and love to travel to the US. They find Americans to be very friendly. They kind of sit on the sidelines, both being neutral countries and figure they are both too small (approx 4 M pop each) to really have an impact on the world. The kiwis were very happy and thankful with the US help in the large earthquake they had here in Feb. The Irish love to tell stores of when famous Americans visited them.

Germans wished we would stop meddling in world affairs and just let others live their lives. They were absolutely Gobsmacked when Americans voted in W again...they couldn't believe any country could be that stupid to make the same mistake again (don't neg me for this, this is only my interpretation, not what I believe). The Germans have a very high quality of life and every time Americans get involved in world events it seems to cost them money (like increase petrol prices) or make someone in the world mad at the West...so they suffer as a result. They don't like the Brits and they see Americans as an off shoot of them. They also don't acknowledge us as a melting pot. Also they really don't like how we treat the environment.

Canadians generally like Americans, but they roll their eyes at lot towards our way of life. They think we take way too much credit and like the Germans, just wished we would mind our own business. When ever they travel in the world, people think they are Yanks, so they get branded for things they didn't do.

Japan is in its own world. They have their own culture and way of doing business. The acknowledge our place as the trendsetter, but out of all the countries listed, they think the least of America...they think of us as you may think of say Thailand. You know it's there, you make things that you export that goes there, but otherwise so different that you really don't give them much of a thought.

The majority of Germans and Japanese wished we would leave their countries (military bases)...except the local communities that prosper from the money we spend and the people we employee.

So, I guess to answer your question, they have grown complacent to us being the policemen of the world. They appreciate the help we prove them in time of disasters, but it is not like they are keeping score and figure they owe us anything. Other than seeing our programs on their TVs every day, they don't really think anymore about the US than you do about them.

By the way, this is totally MY perception....there are a lot of Canadians and Brits on here that don't need me to speak for them...but my guess is I'm close and they are much too kind to say that I'm close to the mark.

[DinarMillionaire]

Very interesting, Tiffany. Thanks for your reply.

[AKVET]

Tiffany

Your assesment of other countries is very darn close to what I have experienced over the years that I have traveled. One thing I enjoy doing is driving through Canada I have noticed if you have Alaska plates you are treated better than the lower 48 people, but that is mostly in the northern areas, must be the weather.

[lomeygoat]

Now Lomely...you know I have no problem with people owning guns...and it may totally confuse some of you but I actually own two myself, a 357 and a shot gun...both that I inherited from my Grandfather...who was an Gunny in the Marines during WWII and a professional cowboy...and yes, he did teach me how to shoot. And no, I'm not very good with either as they both have a bit too much kick for me.

Last night I went to my pub down the street and meant up with my gang...made up of Irish, Brits, Kiwis, South Americans and even Dutch. I told them about this debate I was having and they got quiet a kick out of it. They of course ribbed me about Americans being naturally violent and war mongers....but they all found the American stance on guns to be very foreign. Really....the way most of you feel about the right to bear arms is unlike how anyone else in the Western World does.

The ploy that some of you take saying that I should be wary and that I may have to use one, one day is again very foreign to the rest of the Western World. Of the 5 nationalities that I was sitting with, not one had ever been in a situation that a firearm was needed, nor did they ever know of anyone in any of those countries that needed one. Like wise, I've lived in 7 countries myself: US, Canada, Turkey, New Zealand, Germany, Japan and the UK....not once did I feel the need to have a gun for protection, nor have I ever ran into anyone that did. And to be totally honest, I felt the most threaten when I lived in the US...just knowing that someone else may be "packing" is a scary thought.

It all boils down to the fact that you have a constitutional right to bear arms and no one is going to take that away from you. That right is more important to you, than what the end results that it has on other parts of the US, places that you don't identify with. In addition, while, there are alternatives for home protection (including a dog), that doesn't appeal to you.

Again, I thank you fine Gents for not giving me negatives for bringing up a different point of view, as I do love a good debate among friends...and as they say, Happy Hunting!

Tiff:)

Hi Tiff, By the way I am a Brit. Came over 15 years ago.....

I dont hunt, but I do a lot of target shooting.

I dont know when you visited England, but now its not so friendly.