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THIS is what the Second Amendment is about.


Aces-n-Eights
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THIS, people, is what the Second Amendment is about. It is NOT about hunting, it is NOT about target shooting....it IS about our RIGHT to defend ourselves, and our loved ones. PERIOD. This is the perfect example of why gun rights are so important. A mother shot and killed an armed man who invaded her home, after waiting over 20 MINUTES for a Law Enforcement response.

IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE POLICE TO PROTECT YOU, AND YOUR LOVED ONES. It is YOUR responsibility and yours alone. (See Supreme Court decisions Castle Rock V. Gonzales and Warren V. District of Columbia.)

Hoplophobes would somehow want you to believe that banning firearms keeps people safe. It does not. This woman and her 3 month old baby are textbook examples of how gun ownership levels the playing field for people that are smaller, and weaker than their attacker.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/mom-kills-intruder_n_1183336.html?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl4|sec1_lnk3&pLid=124743

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OK - just couldn't resist. I love it when that little irony in life pops up. This article is a good article - and I whole heatedly agree, don't get me wrong. It's just funny that it should be posted by a user named Aces-n-Eights. For those of us who know a little Wild West history - that's known as "The Deadman's Hand" . :lol:

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I have no problem with people owning a firearm...but keeping it at home means it is the "weapon of choice" for domestic violence (mostly against women and children), let's look at the facts:

There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]

In 2000, in homicides where the weapon was known, 50 percent (1,342 of 2,701) of female homicide victims were killed with a firearm. Of those female firearm homicides, 1,009 women (75 percent) were killed with a handgun.

More than five times as many women were murdered by an intimate acquaintance (605) than by a stranger (113) in the year 2000. Additionally, while firearm homicides involving male victims were mostly intra-gender, 95 percent of female firearm homicide victims were murdered by a male.

Domestic violence against women is a disturbingly common occurrence in the United States. Estimates from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) indicate that from 1993 to 1998, women were victims of violent crimes by their intimate partners an average of more than 935,000 times a year. During this period, intimate-partner violence comprised 22 percent of all violent crimes against women. Although firearms are used in a relatively small percentage of domestic violence incidents, when a firearm is present, domestic violence can and all too often does turn into domestic homicide. Congress, recognizing the unique and deadly role firearms play in domestic violence passed the Protective Order Gun Ban in 1994. The law prohibits gun possession by a person against whom there is a restraining or protective order for domestic violence. In 1996, Congress passed the Domestic Violence Misdemeanor Gun Ban, which prohibits anyone convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence or child abuse from purchasing or possessing a gun.

A 1997 study that examined the risk factors for violent death for women in the home found that when there were one or more guns in the home, the risk of suicide among women increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more than three times. The increased risk of homicide associated with firearms was attributable to homicides at the hands of a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative.

An analysis of female domestic homicides (a woman murdered by a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative) showed that prior domestic violence in the household made a woman 14.6 times more likely, and having one or more guns in the home made a woman 7.2 times more likely, to be the victim of such a homicide.

The circumstances of firearms violence differ significantly between men and women. Compared to a man, a woman is far more likely to be killed by her spouse, an intimate acquaintance, or a family member than murdered by a stranger or an unidentified intruder. A 1976 to 1987 analysis of Federal Bureau of Investigation data revealed that more than twice as many women were shot and killed by their husbands or intimate acquaintances than were murdered by strangers using firearms, knives, or any other means.

Between 1976 and 1996, 65 percent of the male and female victims of intimate partner homicides were killed with a firearm. And while rates of intimate partner homicide have been declining, the ratio of female-to-male victims has risen. In other words, when an intimate-partner homicide occurs, it is increasingly likely that a woman is the victim rather than a man.

Having a gun in the home makes it three times more likely that you or someone you care about will be murdered by a family member or intimate partner.

A firearm in the home may be a key factor in the escalation of nonfatal spousal abuse to homicide. In a study of family and intimate assaults for the city of Atlanta, Georgia, in 1984, firearm-associated family and intimate assaults were 12 times more likely to result in death than non-firearm associated assaults between family and intimates.

The effects of firearm-related domestic violence last long beyond the actual crime. In a study on child witnesses of marital violence, the authors noted that children who observed incidents of domestic violence involving the use or threat of a firearm exhibited higher levels of behavior problems than children who did not.

While YOU personally don't think that you or anyone in your family won't commit such atrocities, your RIGHT to bear arms is essentially allowing this violence to go unchecked and take place...so please explain how you can have your cake and eat it to? :unsure:

Please don't give me negatives, I'm merely pointing out what your rights are allowing others to do. So help me solve this issue, that is all that I'm asking.

http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/domviofs.htm

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tiff.....one thing that is missing from many of the statistics is the ratio of accidents or fatalities verses the total number of gun ownership. Yes, guns are used in violence but there is also the other side of things. Guns also have been used to save life and protect life. Likewise if the total ratio of gun ownership verses the number of guns used in violence is actually quite small.

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"Guns don’t kill people, husbands who come home early from work kill people”

~Larry the Cable Guy

”If guns cause crimes, do matches cause arson?” ~Unknown

If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”

~The Dalai Lama

”Though defensive violence will always be ‘a sad necessity’ in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men.” St. Augustine, (354–430 B.C.)

”This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets willbe safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!” ~Adolph Hitler, 1935, on The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany

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C. Criminals avoid armed citizens

* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.16

* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.17

* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and,

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.18

Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.19

* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.20

Justice Department study:

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."21

* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."22

* 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."23

My link

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Sorry Tiffany, but do you have any data that is not from over a decade ago? Using information that is that old does not necessarily reflect the situation of today... Just sayin'...

Hopeful...no argument there...these stats are old, but in prior debates on this subject I did my research and it showed the same results....just too lazy to look them up now :P

Des....can you pls provide something to back this up? My research shows that Americans are 5 times more likely to die from a gun than Canadians. So I'd like to see where you are getting your info. And pls believe me, I'm not doubting you...I think you are an AWESOME guy! :)

AoK...too funny

Again, appreciate that you are all being polite on this subject, I think in the past, this has been the number 2 source of negatives for me!

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Sorry misspoke, an American is 3 times more likely to die of homicide than Canadians, 4 times as the Irish, and 6 times as likely than Germany or Japan.

A person has a decent chance of out running a knife, but when when a male comes home drunk and wants to take it out on the wife and kids, most of them can't out run a bullet.

Dinarmillion you are posting what guns MAY prevent, which is subjective...key word is may...I'm showing how many actually DIE. Which is factual. :blink:

Edited by Tiffany23
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”This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets willbe safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!” ~Adolph Hitler, 1935, on The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany

As the Allies took control of each German town in 1945, the first thing they'd do, is go to the Burgermeister's house and ask for the list, then round up all of the weapons in town. Hitler made that easy for them... :lol:

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Sorry, have to add one thing.

I'm not saying that having a gun doesn't detour criminals, that is so obvious that it is non debatable. What I am looking at, is the risk of allowing a society access to weapons unchecked. My stats prove that women and children die at a far greater rate in the US than in other western countries. Canada which has a very similar culture to the US, has 1/3 the murder rate that the US does.

So, what do we do as a responsible society? Why can't people own pepper spray, or tazers at home...and keep their firearms in an armory...to take out for hunting/target practice etc. Then everyone wins, right?

This Hitler quote is mystifying for me. Are you guys alluding to the fact that our military may turn against us? Or that some foreign invader will come to our shores? Either one is so ludicrous that I don't see why it would even be mentioned. Just saying

Edited by Tiffany23
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Sorry misspoke, an American is 3 times more likely to die of homicide than Canadians, 4 times as the Irish, and 6 times as likely than Germany or Japan.

A person has a decent chance of out running a knife, but when when a male comes home drunk and wants to take it out on the wife and kids, most of them can't out run a bullet.

Dinarmillion you are posting what guns MAY prevent, which is subjective...key word is may...I'm showing how many actually DIE. Which is factual. :blink:

Don't know what makes you think that. Show me where it says MAY prevent. These are statistics. Showing crime rates dropping when guns are lawful.

Edited by DinarMillionaire
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I just have to jump in on this one too -

According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year -- one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds.

Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey, the defender believed that someone "almost certainly" would have died had the gun not been used for protection -- a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone "probably" would have died if the gun hadn't been used in defense.)

In 83.5% of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first -- disproving the myth that having a gun available for defense wouldn't make any difference.

In 91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker (and the gun defense wouldn't be called "newsworthy" by newspaper or TV news editors). In 64.2% of these gun-defense cases, the police learned of the defense, which means that the media could also find out and report on them if they chose to.

In 73.4% of these gun-defense incidents, the attacker was a stranger to the intended victim. (Defenses against a family member or intimate were rare -- well under 10%.) This disproves the myth that a gun kept for defense will most likely be used against a family member or someone you love.

In over half of these gun defense incidents, the defender was facing two or more attackers -- and three or more attackers in over a quarter of these cases. (No means of defense other than a firearm -- martial arts, pepper spray, or stun guns -- gives a potential victim a decent chance of getting away uninjured when facing multiple attackers.)

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html

In 79.7% of these gun defenses, the defender used a concealable handgun. A quarter of the gun defenses occured in places away from the defender's home.

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Don't know what makes you think that. Show me where it says MAY prevent. These are statistics. Showing crime rates dropping when guns are lawful.

Ok, perhaps I put a bit too much shine on the apple. Dually noted! :) Sorry Buddy!

But again, we aren't debating apples and apples. You guys say that guns detour crime. Noted. But it also kills ALOT of innocent people via domestic violence...manly women and children.

So what is the alternatives?

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I don't have any stats to prove it and too lazy to get some, but how many people die in car accidents each year? Regardless of country. How many drunk driving accidents...Should we also get rid of cars?

I have also heard that more people die in the care of Physicians from mistakes made by the doctor, than by guns here in the US. Should we do something about that?

Just sayin....

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I don't have any stats to prove it and too lazy to get some, but how many people die in car accidents each year? Regardless of country. How many drunk driving accidents...Should we also get rid of cars?

I have also heard that more people die in the care of Physicians from mistakes made by the doctor, than by guns here in the US. Should we do something about that?

Just sayin....

bill...strangely enough, your line of reasoning is logical, what you are saying is that society has determine that we are willing to live with the impacts of having this right. And just for the record, the most dangerous thing that most of us will ever do, is ride in an auto. Touche'

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Perspective is everything. Statistics are only good if kept in perspective of the overall scope. Current total average households with a firearm is 45million in America. This is an average of 260million firearms. Most recent deaths due to firearms is 16,000. This is approximately 3.5% deaths to households with a firearm. In 2002, since that time frame was used earlier in posts, US average population was 285,313,572 with 29,342 firearm deaths. This was an average of .001% average population to firearm deaths. Firearms were 7th in fatalies with 1500 with auto accidents beint 1st with 43,200. In perspective that means there is a 28X higher chance of dying from an auto accicent or that a firearm death was only .035% of the rate of auto death.

Yes, firearms can be used for evil. This has been a part of life since firearms existed. Before firearms people used clubs and spears against each other. People have their own points since it is an emotional issue. People either seem to love gun ownership or hate it. That is to be expected, but it is important that statistics be accurate and not used to prove a particular point since there is always going to be counter statistics. One thing that must be kept in mind is that gun ownership was a primary only reason why Japan never invaded America during WW2. Likewise, other countries which have outlawed guns such as Austrialia has experienced an extreme increase in voilent crime. Additionally, countries with high gun ownership such as Austria have low criime rates. To be totally truthful it would be necessary to have total population verses violent crime rates for both countries which I do not have.

Each person is entitled to their own opinion. Gun owners are not evil no more than gun opposers are ignorant or nieve. Each has their own opinions and reasons for their stance.

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bill...strangely enough, your line of reasoning is logical, what you are saying is that society has determine that we are willing to live with the impacts of having this right. And just for the record, the most dangerous thing that most of us will ever do, is ride in an auto. Touche'

In my line of work I see the DV situation more often than I would prefer. In my experience, guns are seldom used, more knives, tools, plates/pans etc...anything can be used as a weapon. I would be more interested in what we as a human race could do to prevent the DV situation in the first place rather than take away items that might be used to further escalate the conflict. Why are people fighting in the first place? Drugs, Alcoholism, Selfishness, Mental Illness....these are what I would like to have taken away.

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Hopeful...no argument there...these stats are old, but in prior debates on this subject I did my research and it showed the same results....just too lazy to look them up now :P

Des....can you pls provide something to back this up? My research shows that Americans are 5 times more likely to die from a gun than Canadians. So I'd like to see where you are getting your info. And pls believe me, I'm not doubting you...I think you are an AWESOME guy! :)

AoK...too funny

Again, appreciate that you are all being polite on this subject, I think in the past, this has been the number 2 source of negatives for me!

Are there any statistics that show how many of those domestic incidents were committed with a legally obtained and owned firearm vs. an illegal one?

Limiting the rights of citizens to legally obtain and possess firearms for personal and home/family safety would just put things more in the favor of the criminals that wouldn't care about such limitations, and would exploit the situation to their own benefit.

In regards to the domestic violence portion, gun restrictions might reduce the number of incidents but it will not eliminate it. There are too many people that have that temper level that it wouldn't matter if they had a gun or if they used a knife, hammer or even their fists to pummel the person to death. Guns are not what are killing people. The people using the trigger are what are doing the killing, not the gun. Just like it is not the knife that stabs or the hammer that bludgeons.

Bottom line, why should the majority of the population not be allowed to protect themselves, families and property, which is based on a Constitutional right, simply because a small minority of the population cannot act responsibly?

In regards to the '5 times more likely' statement about dying from a gun in US over Canada, I learned long ago that statisticians with an agenda can skew results in certain ways by not accommodating for certain variables, like the massive difference in population between the two locations. So if you have a link to that study for examination, it would be appreciated.

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Ok, perhaps I put a bit too much shine on the apple. Dually noted! :) Sorry Buddy!

But again, we aren't debating apples and apples. You guys say that guns detour crime. Noted. But it also kills ALOT of innocent people via domestic violence...manly women and children.

So what is the alternatives?

Simple, make a law that requires all women to take hand gun classes and carry a hand gun.

Tiffany, have you seen this?

Edited by DinarMillionaire
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I respect others opinions but try to respectfully disagree on some issues such as this one ... statistics don't always tell it all...there are far more deaths by accidents in hospitals and by pharmaceutcals each year than by guns...and knives, clubs, strangulation, baseball bats, and hands are lethal means of killing people...and suicide...lets look at carbon monoxide, sleeping and pain pills, wrist slashing, etc....bottom line if you want somebody killed you can even drown them in a kitchen sink...suicide, people eat their selves to death every day...how about just drinking enough diet drinks with aspartame...guns are used for sporting clays (***** and trap), hunting, plinking, law enforcement, national security and of course home protection...my children were taught fire arm safety as soon as they could comprehend danger and as adults they are responsible users....

when Cain killed Abel, Smith and Wesson had not quite perfected their first pistol....too many people have been killed with every conceivable method to single out guns...bottom line gun control is about disarming a nation of people whose ancestors blood paid for the freedom now enjoyed...it AIN'T about protecting the innocent!!!!! It's a one step before the next step then the finale...look at the countries that introduced gun control...crime increased immediately with guns thanks to criminals having them and citizens not having them....my wife used a gun on 3 separate occasions to discorage dummies that thought it wise to confront a lady home alone..one was breaking in the front door as she slipped around the house and shot him off the front porch...what his intent was, who knows...it probably wasn't to use the phone...to me gun control means having a firm grip and a good aim!....cheers

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Did you guys catch that article about the 18 year old woman and her baby in Oklahoma just yesterday I think. 2 guys were breaking into her trailer house with a knife and she had 911 on the phone when the one guy broke thru and came at her and her baby with the knife right before she blew him away with a shotgun. I love it, one more POS off the streets and if she wouldn't have had a gun anyone can guess her and her baby's fate. A big atta girl for that one! :P I have plenty of firearms and myself, wife, and older kids all know how to load & operate them safely and effectively as we hunt together alot. Just knowing someone has or may have a gun will deter about 95% of criminals and get them to look for an easier target (according to a poll done on violent criminals in prison, I can't remember who did the poll though). I do strongly believe that anyone owning a firearm should take a safety course on how to use it. What I don't like about gun control statistics is they don't show the amount of firearm owners in perspective to crimes commited with firearms. I read another article that said between Wisconsin, Michigan, and I believe it was Ohio, and one other state, maybe Minnesota, that the amount of deer hunters out for hunting season would be the largest armed military force in the world. This is also the reason Japan admitted, after bombing Pearl Harbor they didn't come into the US and finish the job, as they were all well aware that the majority of the people were not only armed but they also knew how to use their guns effectively. Unless this changes there will NEVER be a land invasion of the USA by another country. B) Like Nugent says "I don't want an imprisoned violent offender, I want a dead violent offender, dead offenders don't repeat offend"

Edited by DiveDeepSix
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Dudes/Duddetts,

You have brought up some good arguments based on personal experiences and your own stats. Many of you are my friends or atleast on friendly terms with me, so I don't want to push my luck.

Now, I will go to the carpet on some topics like minority rights...but the 2nd Amendment is definitely not one of those subjects. I have about as much chance of convince you to change the 2nd Amendment as you do of having me want to change the1st Amendment.

So if you will pardon me, I will wander off to another subject and let you good people enjoy discussing this issue in peace and quiet! :P

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