Devil's Advocate Challenge

[Nelg]

Nelg...I took down my racy picture

Hi Tiffany,

Your picture was no big concern to me. I mentioned it only as a gentle reminder that in your thread concerning fantasy you were concerned with the fantasies of individuals when they came into the club where you were working. You are a very attractive lady and I just thought that you might not want to be an unwilling participant in another’s fantasy.

Concerning your post about the glowworms; I have been in the Glowworm cave a couple of times and it is a beautiful place. They are fascinating. Light without the sun or moon. Hummm.

Another beautiful sight in NZ are the tops of the surf when it is full of algae. I was driving back up the coast from just south of Tauranga. It was dark and I rounded a curve that was next to the beach and it was like a fairyland. Every wave was decorated with light from the algae. What a sight. It was beautiful. NZ is a beautiful place. Thank you Kind Sir for answering my questions, again, paragraph by paragraph...you take this seriously, which is very much appreciated! I'm learning a lot and I assure you that your hard work and mentorship is not in vain. I have some thoughts on what it would take to convince me of a God and what would happen to society, if your scenario was put into play. Stay tuned ...meanwhile, I have one for you.

Just a note on the above paragraph: the scenario has already been put into play. God has come and lived among mankind in the form of Jesus. The rest is up to us.

Last night I watched a movie call Legions, actually I had watched it in the States a few years back. But it is about the Apocalypse, and how God plans on destroying the world, so he sends his Archangels Michael and Gabriel to lead the legions of Angels down on man. But Michael casts off his wings and tries to defend the mother of the baby (who is the second coming of Christ) against those who are trying to kill the mother carrying him. It's a bit graphic for my tastes, but there was some really deep philosophical exchanges in the movie between Michael and Gabriel. At one point the two of them fight each other hand to wing (so to speak). Gabriel is doing what God told him to do, which is to destroy Mankind, and in so doing is battling Michael because he is going against God's commandments.

Tiff, don’t become discourage with what I am about to do. I am going to quote or refer to several passages from the Bible. I have no other way to answer. I could have removed the references. But I think for verification and understand I need to reference the Word of God.

Human beings are curious about the “Second Coming of Christ” and have created a number of fiction narratives about the end of the world. The reason the Judgment Day is called the Apocalypse is because the author’s writings have been influenced by the Book of Revelation (Apocalypse of John). And, like good fiction writers, the distortion of facts doesn’t seem to be a problem. It makes it more pliable or manipulative in making screenplays.

Here are some facts to assist you in comprehending the gravity of the distortions of truth:

Michael and Gabriel do not have wings. Only the Cherubim and Seraphim have wings. Nothing big. Just thought I would throw that in. “Angel” simply means, “messenger” and describe one who executes the purpose and will of the one whom they serve. They were created (Ps 148:1-5) by Christ (Col 1:16), and were neither male nor female (Lk 20:34-36). They are powerful and they do war with other spiritual beings. The battle between Michael and Gabriel, as depicted in the movie, is not far off. A battle did take place in heaven between the angels of God and the forces of Satan (Rev 12). However, Michael and Gabriel were on God’s side. In this regard, archangels may be those angels who are fighting the forces of other evil angels who are influencing nations toward wickedness (Dan 10:12-13, 18-21) and fought spiritual warfare (Ps. 89:6, 8; 1 Sam. 1:11; 17:45).

I don’t want this to be a study of angels, but the movie is about angels and therefore the references. They do have a major role in carrying out judgment upon those nations who are disobedient or wicked. For example, a ngels were sent to warn Lot of the impending destruction, which they were to inflict on Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19:12-14), and an angel was sent to bring pestilence upon Israel because David numbered the people (2Sam 24:15-17). (I know you will have a question about this numbering the people, so a quick answer: that indicated that the people were relying upon their strength and power rather than God’s.) Angels will come in the last day upon mankind (2Thess 1:7).

Another point the writers messed up is the fact that the Second Coming of Christ will not be through a child being born. That has already taken place in Bethlehem 2000 years ago. When Christ returns a second time it will be as a the King of kings and LORD of lords to judge all of humanity. The return will be immediate, in one moment of time (1Cor 15:51-52) and He will bring all the angels with Him, for He is their Creator and Ruler (1Thess 4:13ff). Along with the angels, those who have died and have gone to be with the Lord will also return with Him. The destruction of mankind will only be those who are unbelievers and the wicked, not the believers. Believers will go to be with the Lord in heaven (spiritual realm).

But Michael in turn, explains how his entire purpose for being has always been to love and serve Man, and he can't go against his very being. It ends with Gabriel killing Michael.....but (don’t' read this if you plan on watching the movie as it is a spoiler), Michael is reborn and defeats Gabriel but is merciful and doesn’t kill him. Gabriel is awe struck and can't figure it all out, why was he ultimately defeated..and Michael states that "You Gabriel did what God wanted, why I did what God needed".

There conversation is interesting and written to give the viewer a good point to take home. Just a couple of things, angels can’t die. They are spirit beings created for a purpose and as such do not experience death as we know it. When evil angels are defeated they are reserved in pits of darkness to be cast into hell on the last day (2Pet 2:4; Jude 6). I took that to heart, and thought back at some of the exchanges I've had on this site. Some Christians are so set on getting their way, and making sure that Christianity is seen as the one and only true path to Heaven, that they forget that Jesus was all about love, compassion and understanding. If one takes such an aggressive stance to do what they think God would want, they lose the message of who God really is.

I am glad you took the message to heart, but be careful not to get a message that would take you away from the true nature of God. Certainly God is a God of love and compassion. He is not willing that any person should perish [be lost to judgment] (2Pet 3:9), and will present opportunities for us to be with Him (Acts 10). If we continually reject His love, then He has no other recourse than to be just and give the person justice and not mercy.

In this world there are philosophies being taught that ascribe to God (if they believe) only love, mercy, and compassion without considering His holiness, justice, and wrath. Don’t fall for their words. They speak words of comfort and sound like they are filled with love and mercy for all people, and maybe they do love them, but they with their teaching, lead people away from God instead of to Him (2Tim 4:3-4).

Is this kind of what you are talking about with the difference of religion and what the true word of God is?

Yes. This is what I mean by the philosophy of religion as opposed to the words of God (Col 2:6-8).

Have a great and wonderful day.

Nelg

[colt32]

I accepted Jesus when I was 7 yrs old. I'm 46 now. I have been through a lot with my faith. I have witness many miracles and even had a life changing experience. But, yes... I too have had my doubts. When my sister gave birth to my nephew jacob and he lived 3 minutes and died, I cried in utter anguish. How could a God of love do this, or allow this? It began me on a long journey of my faith and questioning what I believe. I have experienced so much of God's love it is impossible for me not to believe in Him. It's possible the heavens just came together or evolution happened but if God planned it. All things are possible with God.

Innate in all of us is a sense of right and wrong. If someone does you wrong why do you get mad about it? If there is no God and only nothing after we die then there is no right and wrong. What, because society taught those rules to us and it's what should be done for the betterment of all. Doesn't make any sense. If there is no God Ultimately, there is no one to answer to and therefore there are no rules. No morals. No Good and no evil. When you die then that's it. It we truly believed that we would live differently. What, because we are afraid of jail..... well that may be but, get all that we can now because we only get one ride. But, each of us knows deep down that there is a right and wrong, because when we are wronged we feel it.

I even questioned did God create evil? If we have all been given a choice the possibility of evil had to be present or there would be no choice. Even Lucifer was given freedom of choice, ultimately he chose to be without God. Evil is the complete absence of anything good. God created all that is good. Think about that. Everything that we enjoy that is good is from God. All good things come down from the father of lights. To be without God after we live is to live eternally without anything that is good. Eye has not seen nor ear has heard the glories prepared for those in Christ.

Think of it like this. If you have a pure glass of water. (God) and you have another glass of water with one atom of impurity in it. (me and you) and you add them together all the water is made impure. We cannot be with God because of our impurity for He is pure Love. But, Jesus made a way. He is pure and offers it to us. Now we can be reunited with Him because of Christ and His purity. Behold, I stand at the door (of your heart) and knock. If anyone hears my knock and opens the door I will come in and sup with him and he with me. God wants good for us. He certainly, has been good to me.

I don't have all the answers I just have my faith in God. A very good book on the subject is the "Case for Christ" written by an agnostic (at the time). It's a short documentary now also. In the end, every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I know that romans 8:28 is absolutely true. "all things work together for good to those who who love God and are called according to His purpose. Now that doesn't mean that all things will be good. It just means they will work together for good. Now, how can that be with the death of my nephew Jacob???? I am in utter ignorance with my intelligence compared with God. I know nothing. I understand nothing. I cannot even fathom the things of God. How he could spare me an eternity without Him. He loves me that much!! God is Love. plain and simple. He loves us all and wishes that none should perish. To die without Him means to eternally be without anything good. Because he created all that is good.

God speed to you my friend

[14Mil]

Thankyou Colt for your personal testimony. And my sympathies for the hardship you and your family have had to share. They say a loss of a child is the most grief stricken thing that a person will ever have to go thru. It sounds as if you have made peace with your maker.

Nelg, once again, appreciate the insight of a man who no doubt, should have been a poet, your words are both smooth and full of wisdom.

And for you missy, always have to throw a question in at the end, eh? Makes us old geezers (as in me) spend valuable brain cells on answering questions instead of chasing, oops Nelg is in the room, instead of drinking beer.

For the believers in the crowd, I ask that you don't take this disrespectfully; this is only my observations and is not meant to offend. With that disclaimer out of the way, let me just say:

So what if there is no meaning in life? If you look towards science, basically we have only one purpose, to survive. And that survival, doesn't necessarily even mean you as a person, it is the very genes that make you up. Tiff, I know you know about Evolutional Biology, so I won't bore you with it as I think you would understand. Now when I meant there may not be a meaning to life, I mean for mankind, other than to advance and evolve. But that doesn’t' mean there can't be meaning in your own personal life. That is yours to discover. You are the captain of your fate and must find out what in life is your passions and then you strive to obtain them. Each individual is different. To be a good husband/wife, to be a good friend, to be a good parent, to be President (frankly, can't understand why anyone would want that job) or whatever.

I have read several books on evolutional biology, and they point that moral codes are someone like t i t 4 t a t. That is, you do something for me, and in return I will do something for you. That way a society is formed, beginning with tribal knowledge and then working up to laws. With all due respect to Colt, there are several other religions and philosophies that have evolved separate to the religions of Abraham that have basically come to the same moral conclusion. Perhaps the best known one is the Golden Rule, which is found in over 23 separate religions, please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule

I fall back on my original post, that because so many people in the world believe so many different ways, and yet share some of the pillars of humanity (moral codes and beliefs in Gods/afterlives), then maybe the God we seek, is within us. How you choose which one is right for you, is truly the path that each of us must take. Just a reminder:

Christianity is not the oldest live religion, nor is Judaism. According to my research it is Hinduism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism

In addition, Tiffany, I'm sure you will be ecstatic to see that the "Nones" (which includes deists, agnostics, atheists, and theists) is the fasted growing belief: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion

Now…where is that beer?!

[bamagirl]

Tiffany I have been thinking lately that as smart and in depth as you are I can only imagine what you would find in the Bible if you studied it with an open heart an not just as a book you want to learn...You have a gift girl.

Edited November 29, 2011 by bamagirl

[Nelg]

Colt, I don't think anyone has all the answers. We human beings must wrestle with the demons that stalk our lives and ruin our tranquility. We are threatened by their insidious persistence in hitting us just when we think we have everything figures out. They have no mercy, no grace, and certainly no concern for our well being. We cry out "WHY?" and silence greets us. No answer comes from the darkness of our despair and we moan for relief in the recesses of our heart. Faith at those times becomes elusive. We look for reasons and only come up with stones. All the Scripture in the world seems only barbs that cut and not soothing ointment. It's at these moments that trusting God is essential. The strength of the knowledge and understanding that we have accumulated over the years places us back on a track that is supported by His love. That knowledge that He loves us allows us to feel His arms around us, and we know that He is there through all the darkness, and challenges, and questionings. He is there and we have strength to take that next step.

Peace, my friend. May God be constantly at your side.

Tiffany I have been thinking lately that as smart and in depth as you are I can only imagine what you would find in the Bible if you studied it with an open heart an not just as a book you want to learn...You have a gift girl.

I agree Bamagirl. Tiffany, take her words to heart.

[Tiffany23]

Thanks to all for the feedback on my questions. I shall study it and report back!

Renee & Nelg, you are both very kind in your "faith" in me..who knows, never say never! Maybe I can shoot for being the first woman Pope!

Colt...again, my utmost sympathies for your loss.

14M....what you are talking about is what I refer to as a Creed. Searching within one's self to decide what is important in one's life and what differences you plan on making. I actually had that as an assignement in one of my graduate leadership classes, it took me a long time to write it as I put a lot of thought into it, and I'd like to share it with my friends. Pls know that we were asked to follow a certain format, so some of the structure is not orginal, but it is what I believe in. If you would like to share your own, I'd be most interested.

Tiffany's Creed

Three passions, simple yet overwhelmingly strong govern my life: the longing for exploration, the search for knowledge and the unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind. These passions, like great winds, blow me hither and thither, in a wayward course around the world.

I seek exploration, first because it brings understanding and wonder, wonder so great that if asked I would often have sacrificed all of my life for just a few hours of this ecstasy. Safaris under Kilimanjaro shadow, hiking the snow capped Matterhorn, windsurfing the wild and mystic Arabian Sea, peering up at the spiritual Sistine Chapel in Rome, climbing the ancient pyramids of Tikal, snorkeling the Great Barrier Reef or watching the miracle of my niece being born, these are the experiences that bring an “awakening” to my soul. I seek exploration next because it introduces me to different cultures and ideas. To have been given the opportunity to exchange thoughts and viewpoints with a Ukrainian Buddhist hotel keeper, a Turkish Muslim history student, an Indian Hindu Taxi driver, and an Irish Catholic Uncle, has made me realize the limits of my own comprehension of life and man.

With equal passion I seek knowledge. I wish to understand the hearts of men, I wish to know why the stars shine. And I try to apprehend the mathematical power by which numbers hold sway above chaos. A little of this, I have achieved, but not much. There is so much more to learn and see.

Exploration and knowledge, so far have led me upward and towards the heavens – seeking the Gods and Universal Truths. But always pity brought me back to earth. Echoing cries of pain reverberate in my heart. Children of famine, tortured victims of oppressors, loneliness, poverty, old age and pain make a mockery of what human life could be. I long to alleviate all the evil, but I cannot and thus I too suffer. And this I promise myself to do what I can, in order to make some small difference.

This has been my life. I have found it worth living, and would gladly live it again if the chance were offered me.

[willy1der]

I have faith in God, I don't waiver in that faith. I also have a relationship with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. For me it isn't about what I can get out of it. I continually ask what I can do for him. Remember the Lords prayer, the part that says give us this day our daily bread. When I began to study that prayer it seemed as if God switched gears so I asked God to show me what your trying to teach me. He did, He told me to turn to John chapter 4 around verse 23, this is where he ministered to the woman at the well. He had sent the disciples to buy meat and when they returned he was speaking to the woman at the well and they told him to eat, Jesus response was I have meat ye know not of, mine is to do the will of my Father. So I went back to the Lords prayer and saw that prayer starts out in worshipping God for who he is and as we do that he will show us things to do. When I'm obedient it is the most fulfiling experinces I've ever had. I have been created to worship God, when we study that word worship I found that it isn't just singing songs of adoration, it is service to God. My mother moved to Florida a few years back and she told me before she left that my relationship with God really stirred her up. She said that for her and the churches she had been attending it was always about what could they get from God but she said to me, Willy, all I hear from you is what can you do for God. When you love, do you love for what you can get out of it or do you love because you choose to love unconditionally whether it be God, person or even a pet. In the Garden of Gethsemenae, Jesus sweat great drops of blood, the bible quotes Jesus as stating that his soul was sorrowful unto death. I listen to people explain that Jesus was in so much anguish because he was facing the cross that he asked the Father to deliver him from the cross to prove his humanity. But Gods word says differently. In Isaiah 52 - 54 we read that Jesus bare our sins an iniquity so tha we may receive healing. In the 53rd chapter it says that he became like a lamb led to the slaughter and opened not his mouth. In Is. 54 you can see the person of the Father speaking to Jesus, he recognized the anguish, saw the heart of the Son of God, see, Jesus was interceeding for us in the Garden of Gethsemenae, not praying for deliverance of the cross. When we read in Matthew about this we read that God sent angels to strengthen him. Jesus was dying in the garden, his soul was exceeding sorrowful even unto death, his will in the garden was to die but he prayed and told the Father, not my will but thy will be done. Jesus knew if he didn't make to the cross that his life was for naught. Now lets go back to Is. 54, God the Father hid his face in a little wrath. When we read the account of Jesus on the cross that from 12 noon until 3 pm darkness was upon the face of the earth, this is when God hid his face in a little wrath. I share all that to make this point, there are some who haven't accepted Christ in your lives and Jesus was so burdened about it in the garden that he almost died but pertitioned God to strengthen to get to the cross, that is why God sent the angels to minister to Jesus. Here's the main point, in Is 54 God the Father told him in a little wrath I hid my face from thee, that was while Jesus was on the cross. Jesus going to the cross was an act of love for mankind, to restore us to God. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. God's wrath was an act of love, only a God of love can destroy the works of the enemy with an act of love. When God showed me this I understood that I will never have to flex my muscles with anyone again. See, My God declares that he is spirit, he is light and he is love. Is. 10:27(?) says that the anointing will destroy the yolk. I want to see people set free so I choose to love them. Love is the anointing that destroys the yolk. There is nothing any of us can do to cause God to love us more. He's all in and he loves each and everyone of us.

God bless,

[Tiffany23]

Ok, this question is for Nelg, Pappy and Bama (alias Sunshine) and others of like mind...and I hope that you don't think of me as exceptionally "thick" for asking it. 14Mil...as always, I'd like you to chime in as well. You four are familiar with my background, so perhaps you won't be overly surprised that I ask it.

The Christian belief is that when you die, you ascend into Heaven and are in the presence of the Lord (assuming this means, all 3 parts of the Trinity, right?). Assuming there are Angels there and also other believers, including those people that you know that have died prior to you...for most of us, that would mean our Grandparents, parents, older sibling etc.

If this is the case, what do you do up there?

From what I've discussed with other believers, you get to chat to your ancestors, friends etc. You also are in God's presence, so you are both in awe and assuming, in great joy at being with him and pls forgive my words, but having made the "cut" on making it to Heaven in the first place. Then what??? You are going to be there for the rest of time, so does that mean you go back over and over what you did in this life? Are you sitting up there and looking down at your love ones still alive on Earth? By the way, do you really think your Ancestors (i.e. Grandparents) are watching you? Like can they see me undress, when I make love...pick my nose? Eeeek!

And this is what I'm very curious to know, are you in essence the same person that you were back on Earth? As you can see, my total makeup (other than cover girl of course), is adventure and exploration. So would someone like me, get to explore new worlds? Would I get to meet Alexander the Great (hmmmm...he may not have made the cut)...ok, Princess Di? Mother Teresa? Thomas Jefferson? Do people get bored?

I've been told by other believers that your personality will change so you won't get bored, you'd be content just being in the grace of God...but I've never been content with anything...even the things I like to do the most, like white water rafting, snorkel, make love...even those things would become boring after a few hundred years.

So, what are your thoughts on this subject? I know I"m adding a bit of humor to my query, so I hope you won't take offense, and I am very interested in your thoughts.

Singing hymns and waving palm branches through all eternity is pretty when you hear about it in the pulpit, but it's as poor a way to put in valuable time as a body could contrive.

Most people can't figure out what to do on a rainy Sunday afternoon, so what do they expect to do for all eternity when they get to Heaven?

- Mark Twain's comment to Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven

Edited December 1, 2011 by Tiffany23

[trooper]

14M, I thought of your comment about existing for but a moment and then nothing, and it reminded me of something I recently wrote in my journal:

There are caves here in New Zealand, deep and dark, whose floors are quiet pools and whose walls and ceilings are covered with soft lights, that look like stars. As one gazes in wonder in the stillness of the caves it seems that a Creator may have reproduced these in heaven itself, I swear I could almost make out the Milky Way and the Constellation of the Southern Cross, ....until one scarcely remembers the enclosing presence of the walls. As I looked more closely, however, the scene is explained. Each dot of light identifies an ugly glowing worm, whose luminous tail is meant to attract insects from the surrounding darkness. As from time to time one of the insects draws near, it becomes entangled in a sticky thread lowered by the worm, and is eaten, usually from the bottom up, ....whether the trapped insect feels any pain, I do not know, but it is a terrible way to end things.

This goes on month after month, the blind worm lying there in the barren stillness waiting to entrap an occasional bit of nourishment that will only sustain it until another bit of nourishment flutters by....until what? What great thing awaits all this long and repetitious effort and makes it worthwhile? And it dawns on me, it is really nothing. The larva just transforms itself finally into a tiny winged adult that lacks even a mouth to feed and lives only a day or two. These adults, as soon as they have mated and laid eggs, are themselves caught in the threads and are devoured by the cannibalist worms, often without having ventured into the day, the only point to their existence having now been fulfilled. This has been going on for millions of years, and to no end other than that the same meaningless cycle may continue for another millions of years.

Is human existence any different in the long run? Aren't we just a little like this worms, which reminds me..

As always, your humble servant of inquiry,

Tiff

I always liked Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil or Richard Taylor, from Good and Evil... The meaning of life..

[Nelg]

This post has been edited by Tiffany23: Today, 04:52 PM

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/90703-devils-advocate-challenge/page__st__20#ixzz1fKK0nP00

Hey Tiffany,

I notice that you posted this today, so I am glad that I caught it. Really thought that that thread was finished.

You hit on a theme which no one really has an answer. The Scriptures do reveal a few things, but not much. I am writing a book on "What Happens After Death" and I have a few things researched. Of course that will be one of the last chapters. But I don't know why your interested, you won't make it! Sorry, couldn't resist a little "judgment humor." You know I wouldn't say that to you.

I am going to wait until the weekend to answer the question. Sorry. I am making a trip to the Kentucky and will not be back at my computer until Saturday afternoon. Make sure you check back after that.

Have a good evening Budatheist.

Nelg

[willy1der]

Well first thing I'm gonna do is give Jesus my crowns because they belong to him anyways. Then I'm gonna look in the Lambs book of life for your name Tiff, of course I'll have to look under the alias column. Then I'm gonna grab me a bottle of the NEW WINE, pop the cork, get me a good slug and then I'm gonna make sure that I know as I'm known which I believe means I'm gonna know a whole bunch of things and if that be the case I'm gonna come down here and challenge you to an IQ test and kick your butt cause you ask some questions girl, gee whiz. I'm bringing that special muzzle I been asking God to build for you and strap it on you miss sassy pants! Then you're gonna have to listen to me for a long long time cause I got eternity on my side at this particular moment. If your name isn't in the book I'm gonna ask for my special hall pass that will allow me to haunt you for the rest of your life cause you have been a big pain in the.... oops, I mean you have been a thorn in my side. After we get ya saved I'll make my way back to heaven look for my spot at the table for the marriage supper of the Lamb, do some rearranging to make sure you get to sit between Neig, Trooper, bamagirl and Markinsa cause I think those four will have a good time whupp'n up on you. You gonna learn how to party and we don't want you to be a party pooper girl. Look, I know the streets of gold will be tempting but trust me, don't put any in your pocket cause you ain't gonna get away with it. Now give me some more time and I'll get back with ya.

[Tiffany23]

Geez, Pappy, you make it sound as if you win me over to be a soldier of Christ that you will get to sit to the right hand of the Big Guy himself. I appreciate your and Neg’s teasing, it is a sign of affection.

Just so you know, if Dog’s aren’t allowed in Heaven, then don’t even think of asking me to join! I couldn’t go a year without him.

But..it is interesting isn’t it…religion (all types) is interested in getting to the party (Heaven) but you really don’t know what it is all about.

Nelg…I am look forward to your posting. Also, I’d love to hear more about your familiarity with NZ..when were you here? Why were you here? How long? What did you like the most?

Oh, and Trooper, Thank you for the honest feedback, I also enjoy reading Nietzsche...perhaps there is hope yet for a meeting of minds between the two of us.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Tiffany23

[willy1der]

Geez, Pappy, you make it sound as if you win me over to be a soldier of Christ that you will get to sit to the right hand of the Big Guy himself. I appreciate your and Neg’s teasing, it is a sign of affection.

Just so you know, if Dog’s aren’t allowed in Heaven, then don’t even think of asking me to join! I couldn’t go a year without him.

But..it is interesting isn’t it…religion (all types) is interested in getting to the party (Heaven) but you really don’t know what it is all about.

Nelg…I am look forward to your posting. Also, I’d love to hear more about your familiarity with NZ..when were you here? Why were you here? How long? What did you like the most?

Oh, and Trooper, Thank you for the honest feedback, I also enjoy reading Nietzsche...perhaps there is hope yet for a meeting of minds between the two of us.

Oh don't jump to the conclusion that I don't know what it's about. Trust me I do. But to share it all with you when I'm limited on time at this moment would do it an injustice. It's not this big checklist and I can check an item off and then NEXT. not like that at all. God's word is deep girl. Oh and there will be dogs and other animals.

[len]

Ok, this question is for Nelg, Pappy and Bama (alias Sunshine) and others of like mind...and I hope that you don't think of me as exceptionally "thick" for asking it. 14Mil...as always, I'd like you to chime in as well. You four are familiar with my background, so perhaps you won't be overly surprised that I ask it.

The Christian belief is that when you die, you ascend into Heaven and are in the presence of the Lord (assuming this means, all 3 parts of the Trinity, right?). Assuming there are Angels there and also other believers, including those people that you know that have died prior to you...for most of us, that would mean our Grandparents, parents, older sibling etc.

If this is the case, what do you do up there?

From what I've discussed with other believers, you get to chat to your ancestors, friends etc. You also are in God's presence, so you are both in awe and assuming, in great joy at being with him and pls forgive my words, but having made the "cut" on making it to Heaven in the first place. Then what??? You are going to be there for the rest of time, so does that mean you go back over and over what you did in this life? Are you sitting up there and looking down at your love ones still alive on Earth? By the way, do you really think your Ancestors (i.e. Grandparents) are watching you? Like can they see me undress, when I make love...pick my nose? Eeeek!

And this is what I'm very curious to know, are you in essence the same person that you were back on Earth? As you can see, my total makeup (other than cover girl of course), is adventure and exploration. So would someone like me, get to explore new worlds? Would I get to meet Alexander the Great (hmmmm...he may not have made the cut)...ok, Princess Di? Mother Teresa? Thomas Jefferson? Do people get bored?

I've been told by other believers that your personality will change so you won't get bored, you'd be content just being in the grace of God...but I've never been content with anything...even the things I like to do the most, like white water rafting, snorkel, make love...even those things would become boring after a few hundred years.

So, what are your thoughts on this subject? I know I"m adding a bit of humor to my query, so I hope you won't take offense, and I am very interested in your thoughts.

Singing hymns and waving palm branches through all eternity is pretty when you hear about it in the pulpit, but it's as poor a way to put in valuable time as a body could contrive.

Most people can't figure out what to do on a rainy Sunday afternoon, so what do they expect to do for all eternity when they get to Heaven?

- Mark Twain's comment to Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven

Well Tiff...Happy Holidays to you!

Once again you have asked the 10 million dollar question; I would expect no less,of course. I am not a Bible scholar nor and expert in Christianity,but I believe this is a question that no human can answer to the degree you would desire.

I guess to me the real question is the opposite, an eternal dirt nap, darkness, an no more awareness ever? What I know from the Bible is Christ will return to Earth and live with his believers for a 1000 yrs with his new kingdom on Earth. If I am wrong scholars correct me, then we will ascend to Heaven with him forever.

The Human mind is finite and can't even really comprehend this concept, eternity, I know I can't really wrap my head around it. If you believe the Bible to be true, or not; Christians believe the non believers will be tormented in a lake of fire forever with Satan, the ex angel thrown out of Heaven.

Not much is written about the afterlife it takes faith, a strong believe that we are on this Earth for some other reason than to cease to exist when when we die, total nothingness.

I would suggest a good read by a former atheist who set out to prove the Bible false by studying History and other supporting literature of that time and came to the opposite conclusion; Josh McDowell. I thought it was a compelling intellectual read on the subject is the Bible fact or fiction.

More Than a Carpenter

Either way it is a personal opinion, belief and our free will entitles us all to have this. A true Christian would never chastise you or anyone for having a difference of opinion.

[Tiffany23]

Pappy, I stand corrected, I will earnestly wait for your lessons as well!

Nelg….a few postings back, you asked me, What would it take to convince me of a God? I don’t know if you put it out there at a rhetorical question or if you actually wanted me to answer. I hate unfinished business, so I’d like to take a stab at it.

First, keep in mind that I grew up as a free thinker, I was exposed to Christianity at a young age, but I was also exposed to Buddhism and Islam not that long after. So my thought patterns may be a bit “wacky” compared to a more traditional American upbringing (shocked?, I doubt it).

First, I’d have to wonder if what I was observing is “merely” an example of an advance species. I’m sure you have seen this quote before:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

— Arthur C. Clarke

So, as an metaphor, if we were to take a caveman, and put him in a spaceship and then put him on the space station, where he could see the Earth and float in space, would he not think of us as Gods?

Also, there is a line of reasoning that we ourselves may someday raise to the level of Gods, and I’m not talking about what say, the Mormons believe, but something referred to as the Omega Point:

Originally it was proposed in the 20th century c.e. that God would be the result of the evolution of all (or some) intelligent life; "It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God but to create him." as Arthur C. Clarke put it

http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/483b1d57a9f34

I personally don’t see this happening, like Carl Sagan, I think we are probably going to blow ourselves up long before that happens. But I digress.

Think of how Hollywood portrays advance civilizations contacting us, seems like it follows 3 major themes:

1. They kick our butts and take our resources (or try to). Like Independence Day, Predator, Aliens or War of the Worlds

2. They come in Peace like Cocoon, Contact, or ET

3. They only observe us, as they don’t think we are ready yet to joining the collective (i.e. Star Fleet). And they don’t want to disrupt our fate (Prime Directive) so they don’t interfere.

So, if GOD does suddenly appeared, then I’d wonder, which of these three scenarios are we in for. I guess Rapture, would kind of be like a combo of all 3, depending on where you are in the belief cycle, eh? In which case, I am so screwed, unless I can get you guys to vouch for me!

Now, just to throw a curve ball, what happens if instead of Christ, Lord Shiva, the Hindu God that is set to destroy the World shows up. Then you Christians are totally screwed, as you won’t have any idea what you were supposed to do to prepare for the end of days.(But at least you will have me as a partner in crime.) And if you think I’m kidding, remember Hinduism is MUCH older than both Judaism and of course Christianity, AND it is also almost as popular, there are approx. 1 Billion people in the world that believe that Shiva will be knocking on the door, that’s over 3 times the population of the US! Kind of hard to swallow that that many people could be so wrong, eh? Maybe, just maybe THEY are right and we are wrong. At least I will be able to state honestly, that I didn’t believe in another God, but you Christians have no hope. You are SOOO Screwed. Be afraid, be very afraid.

http://www.sanatansociety.org/hindu_gods_and_goddesses/shiva.htm

Len...just read your posting as I was writing this one. Thank you my friend, I'll look into it!

[bamagirl]

Tiff, have you ever heard the song 'I Can Only Imagine' by Mercy Me? Well that explains how I feel about eternity with my Lord, i can only imagine and it will still exceed my expectations...if you haven't heard it look it up, listen and tell me what ya think. It's so beautiful.

[Tiffany23]

Tiff, have you ever heard the song 'I Can Only Imagine' by Mercy Me? Well that explains how I feel about eternity with my Lord, i can only imagine and it will still exceed my expectations...if you haven't heard it look it up, listen and tell me what ya think. It's so beautiful.

Actually Renee...that was one of my very first post on this site. I too love that Song!

[bamagirl]

Tiff my mom died of an aneurysm 6 yrs ago, she was only 48...it was the most devastating thing I have ever endured, I sat by her bedside for two days alternating prayers between begging God to let her live and then for His will to be done. I was holding her hand when she took her last breath and I swear to you on all I am I felt a presence in the room that was not of this earth. I was in the most excruciating pain but I was given strength and peace from this presence...from then on all I can think is I can only imagine how she felt in that moment. We played that song at her service.

Tiff my mom died of an aneurysm 6 yrs ago, she was only 48...it was the most devastating thing I have ever endured, I sat by her bedside for two days alternating prayers between begging God to let her live and then for His will to be done. I was holding her hand when she took her last breath and I swear to you on all I am I felt a presence in the room that was not of this earth. I was in the most excruciating pain but I was given strength and peace from this presence...from then on all I can think is I can only imagine how she felt in that moment. We played that song at her service.

[Goldeelox]

I have noticed that when a small child sees their parents eating with a fork, they are prompted to follow suit....and so it goes with everything else mom and dad have taught them.

Humans seem to have been born with a conscience and an innate desire to seek out the person or persons who made the world around them. Man has always sought to find a god, even if he had to carve one out of wood or stone. He has erected statues and temples to all kinds of inanimate things like the sun, moon, planets, creatures, birds, frogs, cats, (really, go check out an Egyptian museum sometime) and even money. Yet Judeo-Christianity is the only instance where the God of Creation revealed Himself to man through the Patriarchs and prophets, and His inspired Words. (Men only held the pen)

There are magnificent shrines all over the planet that mark the burial places of gods and man-made religious leaders, where followers travel great distances to visit the tombs where they lay. ..... With the exception of Jesus.......His tomb is empty. He is alive right now. Not only was His birth the central event of all history, but His power remains the most vital force in the universe today. The Bible is all one story. It starts with a nation that was nurtured by God for the sole purpose of bringing Jesus into the world. The New Testament describes his strangely beautiful life of kindness, compassion and forgiveness, and ends with FINAL VICTORY for His followers...

[Nelg]

The Christian belief is that when you die, you ascend into Heaven and are in the presence of the Lord (assuming this means, all 3 parts of the Trinity, right?). Assuming there are Angels there and also other believers, including those people that you know that have died prior to you...for most of us, that would mean our Grandparents, parents, older sibling etc.

First I want to clear up something. Yes, we are a threefold bring: body, soul, and spirit. But only the spirit and soul return to God at death. The body goes to the grave (that is, to a place of rest or sleep) where it remains until the Second Coming of Christ.

One of the many blessings of heave will be understanding why those of our friends and family are not there. Here, in this life, we want everyone to be there, but that cannot be. I’m hoping that God will give us no memory of those who are condemned to eternal hell. And, yes, there is a Hell.

If this is the case, what do you do up there?

From what I've discussed with other believers, you get to chat to your ancestors, friends etc.

From what I understand from the Scripture, we will know each other in Heaven. Moses died and God buried his body (Dt 34:5-6). Yet Moses is speaking to Christ (Mt 17:5; Mk 9:4).

Elijah is taken up in a whirlwind to heaven (2Kg 2:11) and reappears in person on the mount of transfiguration (Mk. 9:4).

Jesus declares that the Patriarchs live (Mt 22:31-33).

Abraham speaks, Lazarus and the rich man are conscious and aware or their surroundings (Lk 16:22-31).

Jesus preached to the spirits in prison (Hades) before the resurrection of His body (1Pt 3:18-20).

Souls are aware of what is transpiring on the earth (Re 6:9-11), but only while earth lasts.

There are things that the Bible says that we do. We worship and praise God in the Throne Room (Re 4 & 5). After the judgment of the mankind there will not be physical heavens or earth, therefore there will be no observation of things in the physical realm. Personally, I don’t think we will ever be bored with the wonders of God. If there are spiritual realms to explore, we might do that as well, but I’m not sure what we will do. The Bible does not reveal those details. Speculation is the best we can do.

You also are in God's presence, so you are both in awe and assuming, in great joy at being with him and pls forgive my words, but having made the "cut" on making it to Heaven in the first place. Then what??? You are going to be there for the rest of time, so does that mean you go back over and over what you did in this life?

If one is in heaven with God there will be no going over ones life again and again (except maybe in Hell, but this is Heaven). That would certainly serve no purpose. In the spiritual realm of heaven, everything will be focused on God and what we are doing with Him (whatever that is. In fact, if there is a remembrance of deeds or the life we have lived, the only remembrance would be of the good and righteous things. There would be no remembrance of sin or the bad things we did. Those are all forgiven and removed from memory, even from the mind of God (Heb 10:17).

Are you sitting up there and looking down at your love ones still alive on Earth? By the way, do you really think your Ancestors (i.e. Grandparents) are watching you? Like can they see me undress, when I make love...pick my nose? Eeeek!

Before the second coming and during the trials and persecution which face the saints, then there will be saints around the altar (Re 6:9). But after the Second Coming there will be no earth or heavens to observe (2Pet 3).

And this is what I'm very curious to know, are you in essence the same person that you were back on Earth? As you can see, my total makeup (other than cover girl of course), is adventure and exploration. So would someone like me, get to explore new worlds? Would I get to meet Alexander the Great (hmmmm...he may not have made the cut)...ok, Princess Di? Mother Teresa? Thomas Jefferson? Do people get bored?

Again, no one knows the answer to those questions. We do know that our personality will be the same except we will be holy and not interested in the things of this world.

I’m hoping that I will know everyone in heaven. God may give us that knowledge. But I will not know them after the flesh but after the spirit (2Cor 5:11-20). [Note: I know this passage refers to the present and not to the after life, but it seems to make sense that if we recognize individuals now as spiritual beings, we should do so in heaven.) In other words, we will not see or recognize those in heaven by their physical appearance but by their personality and spirit. IMO. I probably will not care what they did “in the world” but I will be interested in what they did for God. In other words, your past may not mean anything to me as long as it is outside the realm of God. What you did in this life is no more than a pile of dung and not even worthy to be acknowledged (cf. Phil 3:7-16). What I would want to know about is your relationship to Christ and how you served Him, loved Him, and shared Him with others. Of course, all of that is love manifested in action.

I've been told by other believers that your personality will change so you won't get bored, you'd be content just being in the grace of God...but I've never been content with anything...even the things I like to do the most, like white water rafting, snorkel, make love...even those things would become boring after a few hundred years.

You are thinking like a human being in the flesh. In the spiritual world after death, your friends may be correct, I don’t think anyone would get bored. As you get older all those youthful activities become only a memory of days when one is able to do those things. Youth is not forever. Skiing, golfing, rafting, sports activities, and for me, fighting every Saturday until I was 49. Age, illnesses, and interest take care of all that. But even sex is still important, but not THAT important. However, in heaven there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Matt 22:23-33). [The Sadducees didn’t believe in an afterlife anyway. To them, the question they ask was just academic.] Those things that are eternal and that last, are those things that are spiritual and not physical.

So, what are your thoughts on this subject? I know I’m adding a bit of humor to my query, so I hope you won't take offense, and I am very interested in your thoughts.

Now, just to let you know, I have about 30 pages of material that will go into my book. If you are interested, then I will need to know how I can send material to you without having your email or physical address.

I will try to get to your other questions shortly.

Hope you have a wonderful day and that we get this RV of the dinar in the next few days!

Nelg

[colt32]

To me it's very simple. To live this life is to be about the "fathers" (Gods) business. Letting the fruits of the Holy spirit guide us as we serve others. This is ultimately why we were created and when I experience my utmost happiness. To be in His service is an unbelievable honor. I also long to be in His house.

John 14

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

What will we do in that place? Well, I certainly hope that It is to be about God's business. It is why I was created. To serve. It's when I am happiest.

The other side of the coin is to be not about His business which is where Satan is. That can only be a bad place.

I long to be in that place that I was created for. To serve Him and others. IMHO

[Nelg]

To me it's very simple. To live this life is to be about the "fathers" (Gods) business. Letting the fruits of the Holy spirit guide us as we serve others. This is ultimately why we were created and when I experience my utmost happiness. To be in His service is an unbelievable honor. I also long to be in His house.

John 14

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

What will we do in that place? Well, I certainly hope that It is to be about God's business. It is why I was created. To serve. It's when I am happiest.

The other side of the coin is to be not about His business which is where Satan is. That can only be a bad place.

I long to be in that place that I was created for. To serve Him and others. IMHO

Amen to that. Been in His service for a long time and will for an eternity in Heaven.

What amazes me are the number of Christian people who don't think they are going to make it. But every saint will be there without fail! We are their by His mercy and grace, and not by our service and good deeds.

[carolinadukegirl]

14 MIL, if you lean towards "the intellectual side," which it sounds from your post you do, The Science of God by Gerald Schroeder will be a great resource for you. He graduated and was a professor at MIT. His answers are simple and understandable. Here's a link: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_18?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the+science+of+god+by+gerald+l.+schroeder&sprefix=The+Science+of+God

Just because I'm a Christian believer doesn't mean I've never gone through years of "wilderness." We each traverse our own. Hopw this helps!

[Tiffany23]

Nelg,

You've given me a LOT to ponder, so give me a few days to let what you wrote sink in. But I do very sincerely appreciate the time you are devoting to me and the rest of the clan.

My initial concern with what you wrote is that I won't be the same person I am now in an afterlife. Not that I'm that much in love with myself, mind you, it is just, if you take away the sins/hardships/bad things that have happen, and I no longer remember them, then that isn't really me, is it? Those things have impacted and shaped my life. For example, because of my life choices, and the way people react to them, it has made me more determined and thus to seek out knowledge so that I can hold my own. It has made me strive to support minority rights so that all people beliefs/opinions are respected. If that aspect of my life is gone, then what do I have left?

Not sure if I’m making my point very well. But I do acknowledge that in time, my hopes and dreams will change, most likely mellow..but who wants a mellow Tiff?

[colt32]

Amen to that. Been in His service for a long time and will for an eternity in Heaven.

What amazes me are the number of Christian people who don't think they are going to make it. But every saint will be there without fail! We are their by His mercy and grace, and not by our service and good deeds.

It's because we know where we fall short. It's hard to believe the pardon when we know that tomorrow we will commit a sin. Whether it be by omission or comission. If I had to keep one thing after what Christ did for me on the cross to make it to heaven then it would totally nullify Christ's sacrifice. But, a tree is know by it's fruits. "for they are my sheep and know my voice, and follow me". The free gift only comes with one attachment. That you give yourself (everything) to God. Your sins, your failures, your doubts, your excuses, your rebellions, your hidden sins that only you know of, your hard heart, your "good" deeds, your good self.... these we must all lay down at the foot of the cross and put complete faith in Him. It is the hardest thing.

Try this one thing. The next time someone does bad to you or wrongs you........ return love for it. You may get more bad treatment. The single hardest thing to do in this life is to return Love for Hate. It is exactly what Christ did for us on the cross. And, guess what. Most everyone is prepared for an attack. So, they gear up for it and they expect it, BUT, when you give them love when they are expecting, anger, or whatever.... you are hitting them as hard as one can hit anyone. They have NO defense against love. It cripples them. God did this for you and I.

God speed to you.