Capitalism vs. socialism question

[Showtime2012]

Questions:

1) If capitalism works so well and we hate socialism- how is it that we owe a communist / socialist country like China trillions of dollars?

2) under which administration was the trillions of dollars borrowed from China?

3) can a little bit of socialism help America?

4) If China decides to cash in their chips and wants their money back today- how do we re-pay the loaned money?

peace.

[parmenio]

China has embraced capitalism for their economy. When Hong Kong was handed over to them by the British several years ago the Chinese saw how successful making money was using capitalism. However , they just can't let go being authoritarian with their population.

[tim5400]

once you take away the freedoms that capitalism provides ...thesocialists slowly take away freedoms from the productive members of society.....limiting their ability to keep what they make .......slowly socialist take all of what we make and ditribute it to those who will not work as hard or get as educated as they can to enrich themselves through THEIR OWN HARD WORK.....i hate socialist/communist thinking....no one wins

[usndiver]

Why don't you move to China and try working there for a few years, complain that you can't vote, serve on a jury, worship as you please, speak freely of the governments policy towards the citizenry, etc. etc. and then come to your own conclusions on socialism or communism?

[Showtime2012]

Why don't you move to China and try working there for a few years, complain that you can't vote, serve on a jury, worship as you please, speak freely of the governments policy towards the citizenry, etc. etc. and then come to your own conclusions on socialism or communism?

Me going to and living in china has nothing to do with the questions that I have presented- please give a response to the questions that I have presented.

if not, leave this topic alone then dude- and move on!

[Showtime2012]

once you take away the freedoms that capitalism provides ...thesocialists slowly take away freedoms from the productive members of society.....limiting their ability to keep what they make .......slowly socialist take all of what we make and ditribute it to those who will not work as hard or get as educated as they can to enrich themselves through THEIR OWN HARD WORK.....i hate socialist/communist thinking....no one wins

ok I see what you are saying, but what are your thoughts on giving billions maybe trillions to other countires in aid, but it seems that most would love to abolish this country's welfare system for Americans first before cutting all international aid.

there is no one here in america who is guranteed to keep their standard of living. How would you feel if you fell on hard times and the welfare office told you that you didn't qualify for assistance because you had great potential to earn a living, but you got laid off and you can't find a job. And everytime you look up, our country is giving aid to other countries.

do we cut our fellow Americans off first from welfare or do we cut all international aid first?

I will find a link that will show you that all of the money given to our fellow Americans on welfare don't even compare to the amount of international aid to other countries in which whom don't give a darn about you or me.

[MrDinarman]

Questions:

1) If capitalism works so well and we hate socialism- how is it that we owe a communist / socialist country like China trillions of dollars?

2) under which administration was the trillions of dollars borrowed from China?

3) can a little bit of socialism help America?

4) If China decides to cash in their chips and wants their money back today- how do we re-pay the loaned money?

peace.

1) Because we have way too many regulations and taxes to have a true free market society

2) I would assume it went back many administrations. Nixon was the first president to visit china...

3) No. It hasn't worked very well over the last 100 years. We are broke.

4) We don't repay. We go to war I guess. They won't do it, we buy way to many of their products and would have the backing of the UN

ok I see what you are saying, but what are your thoughts on giving billions maybe trillions to other countires in aid, but it seems that most would love to abolish this country's welfare system for Americans first before cutting all international aid.

there is no one here in america who is guranteed to keep their standard of living. How would you feel if you fell on hard times and the welfare office told you that you didn't qualify for assistance because you had great potential to earn a living, but you got laid off and you can't find a job. And everytime you look up, our country is giving aid to other countries.

do we cut our fellow Americans off first from welfare or do we cut all international aid first?

I will find a link that will show you that all of the money given to our fellow Americans on welfare don't even compare to the amount of international aid to other countries in which whom don't give a darn about you or me.

IMO America should come first. I believe if natural disasters, ect take place around the world, Americans can, will and do step up and help without the government. We are the most charitable nation. Secondly, only in an extreme case of genocide or crimes against humanity should our government step in either with military and or financial aid.

[rapidrex]

Is a little socialism good? Is a little cancer, good?

It is a failed system and will continue to fail, but every generation has morons who will embrace it and try it again.

[DinarMillionaire]

Questions:

1) If capitalism works so well and we hate socialism- how is it that we owe a communist / socialist country like China trillions of dollars?

2) under which administration was the trillions of dollars borrowed from China?

3) can a little bit of socialism help America?

4) If China decides to cash in their chips and wants their money back today- how do we re-pay the loaned money?

peace.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." a known fact. Socialism has been a failure everywhere it is tried. (Greece, U.K. et al)

1) If capitalism is so bad, how did America become the richest and most powerful country the world has ever seen? And why, if capitalism is so bad, is China and Russia now embracing it? While we Americans are going backwards.

2) have to google it, don't know off hand.

3) We already have...social security...welfare...food stamps...subsidies, etc., etc.

4) Wondered that myself.

"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at...how many want in...and how many want to get out." Tony Blair to his own people as to why he believes in America.

I must wonder...with so many wanting into America and so many are from socialist countries, Why would we want to adapt to a socialist society, if so many are trying like hell to leave theirs for Capitalism?

[parmenio]

It all comes down to personal freedom. If you want it then we in the U.S. have the Constitution that protects it and capitalism is the means to your financial happiness or freedom to pursue it. If not and you choose socialism/marxism then the "elites" are in control and "assume" you are too stupid to know what's good for you!!!

[Weapon X]

Questions:

1) If capitalism works so well and we hate socialism- how is it that we owe a communist / socialist country like China trillions of dollars?

2) under which administration was the trillions of dollars borrowed from China?

3) can a little bit of socialism help America?

4) If China decides to cash in their chips and wants their money back today- how do we re-pay the loaned money?

peace.

I will only tell you this, you are comparing oranges and apples, capitalism is economic and socialism is government.

You have to separate both because we have "socialist" countries, Canada, UK, amoungst others that claim to be socialist is natura and yet have a capitalist economic agenda.

And to those who think a little socialism doesn't work, tell me did you go to public schools?? do you transit on public roads?? those are socialist in nature because they are attended and taken care by the government.

Edited October 16, 2011 by Weapon X

[tim5400]

ok I see what you are saying, but what are your thoughts on giving billions maybe trillions to other countires in aid, but it seems that most would love to abolish this country's welfare system for Americans first before cutting all international aid.

there is no one here in america who is guranteed to keep their standard of living. How would you feel if you fell on hard times and the welfare office told you that you didn't qualify for assistance because you had great potential to earn a living, but you got laid off and you can't find a job. And everytime you look up, our country is giving aid to other countries.

do we cut our fellow Americans off first from welfare or do we cut all international aid first?

I will find a link that will show you that all of the money given to our fellow Americans on welfare don't even compare to the amount of international aid to other countries in which whom don't give a darn about you or me.

foriegn aid should be scaled back or stopped completely to many countries...as well as welfare reciepients that are fraudelently bilking the American Tax payer....Im self employed and there is NO UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS for the self employed....What about us in your argument.....The owners of businesses must pay unemployment for their employees BUT if the business itself goes under...THE business owner gets NO GOVERNMENT support

[Treyn]

Questions:

1) If capitalism works so well and we hate socialism- how is it that we owe a communist / socialist country like China trillions of dollars?

2) under which administration was the trillions of dollars borrowed from China?

3) can a little bit of socialism help America?

4) If China decides to cash in their chips and wants their money back today- how do we re-pay the loaned money?

peace.

Your stupidly is evident in asking this question so I’m sure you would not understand the answer!

[divemaster5734]

Questions:

1) If capitalism works so well and we hate socialism- how is it that we owe a communist / socialist country like China trillions of dollars?

2) under which administration was the trillions of dollars borrowed from China?

3) can a little bit of socialism help America?

4) If China decides to cash in their chips and wants their money back today- how do we re-pay the loaned money?

peace.

Those questions require far more time to answer, and even if I did, that would be a horrible injustice to you, because you need to perform your own due diligence to create your own opinion.

First, we have not had "capitalism" in almost 100 years. That's like saying all liberals are progressives. or all conservatives are GOP.

It is extremely naive to think the huge multinationals got to where they are without a lot of government intervention.

Take GE. They spent millions lobbing for NAFTA and China's "favored nation" status.

They got millions in subsidies, enjoy tax breaks, farm the manufacturing of their equipment to other cheap labor countries, and then get their equipment specified for American projects.

How is that even remotely capitalist? That is the definition of Fascism. Fascism is not possible without full government cooperation.

Take the Solandra scandal. They invest in Obama's election campaign.

Then they get over 1/2 billion "loan", even though they are insolvent. How is that capitalist.?

That is government corruption

It's not that we are actually "borrowing" money from China, they have purchased our treasury notes.

Have you heard of the FTZ, or Free Trade Zones?

They are designated by our government to be under the UN control, they have foreign workers without visas, making wages equal to their own country, and they work for foreign companies that are not subject to American labor laws.

Then, to "ship to America". they only have to drive the semi out of the gate.

All this is brought on by corrupted politicians, unethical business practices, and deception of the American people.

China can't "ask for their money back".

That wasn't the deal.

China has been intentionally holding down their own currency.

You need to take the time to do your own work.

Educate yourself, don't just spout something you heard on the radio.

China has overdeveloped their own country, they have hundreds of designed towns sitting empty.

They are fighting a major inflation right now.

I can post links if you would like, but your questions demand you learn the answers yourself.

[TexasFisherman]

Lots of good thoughts and ideas here (though I cannot agree with them all).

Socialism has not proven to be a good plan most anywhere it has been tried. Ask frolks from England and Canada how their socialist medical care is working for them. Ask those in the former Soviet Union how socialism and communism worked for them. How much they had to eat and career opportunities, etc. I do not want to go there but it looks like this administrtion wnats us to. To require we buy insurance of any kind is against the Constitution to my way of thinking. Yes, to comply with the law I must buy car insurance to protect YOUR car if I hit you but nothing requires me to protect mine. And if I can prove I can pay without insurance, I do not even have t purchase protection for you.

One note, social security as designed here was not socialist. If you pay into something, like social security, then reap benefits from it later, it is not a socialist or entitlement program. It would be for those who might receive benefits and never paid in. That also is why it is becoming broke to a point that though retired and receiving benefits from my hears of labor, I cannot ***** on it long term. I paid into my retirement account at work and now receive it back in benefist along with some the company paid. That is not an entitlement or socialist program, welfare is. It is not an entitlement to take funds out of my ouw savings account but for you to take them, that is down righ thievery!

Public schools and roads are not socialist since we all contribute for the whole. Welfare is we who worked all contribute for the sake of the few. If folks here illegaly receive benefits here, then I guess that is socialist. Try going to any country in the world and apply for public assistance especially if you are in that country without permission. Know what would happen to you/ It would not be pretty. Here we seem to welcome it. Even the IRS code allows non-citzens to collect YOUR taxes in certain situations. Don't mind helping folks but they should at least be citizens and becoming Americans if WE are to be requiredto provide for them here. At least that is my opinion.

As for sending funds over seas, I think it is about time we took care of what is at home and let the world take care of themselves. Doesn't sound very Christian but how is it we send huge sums there and it is misused, stolen and like and we have folks here living in abject poverty?

I do not mind giving a hand up but oppose giving a hand out. If someone's home gets destroyed by a natural disaster (and I am gonna get bashed here) that is what insurance is for. If they choose not to purchase it, for the most part, it is on them not you and me to make them whole. We had a hail storm this spring and I am putting on a new roof. Insurance is paying the lion's share and I would never look to my neighbors to do it for me. That would be socialism to my way of thinking.

Hey come on RV then the AFTER PARTY! I am sure ready. If it is waiting on me here is my vote to GO GO GO!!!

[uncirculd]

If China called in the debt. Who would buy their goods?

Well, they would go broke. If they called in the loan, they would be holding worthless paper. One thing about the complex world monetary system, it's not just the US, but it still may become worthless in less than 6 months. Watch the Euro. That will domino the west like no ones business. Companies will lose millions daily, some billions. We don't care cause we don't have it to lose. And it is worthless paper. All debt. They can have it. We will be speaking Chinese. We have put up our National Parks for collateral. Isn't this a wonderful place to live? It was.

Lots of good thoughts and ideas here (though I cannot agree with them all).

Socialism has not proven to be a good plan most anywhere it has been tried. Ask frolks from England and Canada how their socialist medical care is working for them. Ask those in the former Soviet Union how socialism and communism worked for them. How much they had to eat and career opportunities, etc. I do not want to go there but it looks like this administrtion wnats us to. To require we buy insurance of any kind is against the Constitution to my way of thinking. Yes, to comply with the law I must buy car insurance to protect YOUR car if I hit you but nothing requires me to protect mine. And if I can prove I can pay without insurance, I do not even have t purchase protection for you.

One note, social security as designed here was not socialist. If you pay into something, like social security, then reap benefits from it later, it is not a socialist or entitlement program. It would be for those who might receive benefits and never paid in. That also is why it is becoming broke to a point that though retired and receiving benefits from my hears of labor, I cannot ***** on it long term. I paid into my retirement account at work and now receive it back in benefist along with some the company paid. That is not an entitlement or socialist program, welfare is. It is not an entitlement to take funds out of my ouw savings account but for you to take them, that is down righ thievery!

Public schools and roads are not socialist since we all contribute for the whole. Welfare is we who worked all contribute for the sake of the few. If folks here illegaly receive benefits here, then I guess that is socialist. Try going to any country in the world and apply for public assistance especially if you are in that country without permission. Know what would happen to you/ It would not be pretty. Here we seem to welcome it. Even the IRS code allows non-citzens to collect YOUR taxes in certain situations. Don't mind helping folks but they should at least be citizens and becoming Americans if WE are to be requiredto provide for them here. At least that is my opinion.

As for sending funds over seas, I think it is about time we took care of what is at home and let the world take care of themselves. Doesn't sound very Christian but how is it we send huge sums there and it is misused, stolen and like and we have folks here living in abject poverty?

I do not mind giving a hand up but oppose giving a hand out. If someone's home gets destroyed by a natural disaster (and I am gonna get bashed here) that is what insurance is for. If they choose not to purchase it, for the most part, it is on them not you and me to make them whole. We had a hail storm this spring and I am putting on a new roof. Insurance is paying the lion's share and I would never look to my neighbors to do it for me. That would be socialism to my way of thinking.

Hey come on RV then the AFTER PARTY! I am sure ready. If it is waiting on me here is my vote to GO GO GO!!!

Yeah to the RV RV RV

Edited October 16, 2011 by uncirculd

[DinarMillionaire]

Lots of good thoughts and ideas here (though I cannot agree with them all).

One note, social security as designed here was not socialist. If you pay into something, like social security, then reap benefits from it later, it is not a socialist or entitlement program. It would be for those who might receive benefits and never paid in. That also is why it is becoming broke to a point that though retired and receiving benefits from my hears of labor, I cannot ***** on it long term. I paid into my retirement account at work and now receive it back in benefist along with some the company paid. That is not an entitlement or socialist program, welfare is. It is not an entitlement to take funds out of my ouw savings account but for you to take them, that is down righ thievery!

TF,

I can see your reasoning, but it just is't that cut and dry...It has at the least turned into socialism. (see in bold your own statement) Many foreigners come here never work a day here and receive benefits from social security.

"Social Security. Having come into existence as part of the New Deal in the 1930s (the earlier Americans would have nothing to do with it!), the Social Security system is also founded on stealing. Here, the loot is forcibly taken, again under the guise of "taxation," from the young and given to the old. The recipients always rationalize the process by convincing themselves that the money, which was plundered from them was retained in some type of investment pool which earned interest. They block out of their minds that the politicians spent their money years ago and that they are now engaging in the classic socialist scheme of using the political process to take from those who have and give the loot to others."

Read more: http://www.fff.org/freedom/0990a.asp

[Francie26]

once you take away the freedoms that capitalism provides ...thesocialists slowly take away freedoms from the productive members of society.....limiting their ability to keep what they make .......slowly socialist take all of what we make and ditribute it to those who will not work as hard or get as educated as they can to enrich themselves through THEIR OWN HARD WORK.....i hate socialist/communist thinking....no one wins

Sheesh!! Sounds like Obama!!

[divemaster5734]

If China called in the debt. Who would buy their goods?

. We have put up our National Parks for collateral. Isn't this a wonderful place to live? It was.

Yeah to the RV RV RV

Actually, that was part of a larger plot.

Bush closed down a lot of American military bases.

The closed bases were made national parks for "maintenance" reasons.

Clinton then gave the UN control of all parks in order to help pay off the trillions in national debt.

Since the old bases were now under UN control, they moved foreign forces into those already made and secure bases.

We now have thousands of foreign troops living on American soil, ready to enforce anything the governments think the American military will refuse to do, like shoot at Americans that disobey martial law.

Obama then gave the UN police the highest jurisdiction in America.

That's right, the UN police can take you from your home, put you on their base prison, and hold you for as long as they want, because the UN has NEVER accepted the US Constitution as valid.

And ther is NOTHING anyone in law enforcement can do about it, so if you are friends with, or know a police, or even are a police, you are helpless against the oppressors.

Don't you see what a lousy game they have played?

Edited October 16, 2011 by divemaster5734

[parmenio]

"...I hate socialist/communist thinking...," you say. I say most of us agree. The question you must ask, however, is how much are patriot Americans willing to sacrifice to see that our freedoms continue to the next generation(s). As for for me I will die and fight for my kids and grandkids' freedom.

Edited October 16, 2011 by parmenio

[divemaster5734]

"...I hate socialist/communist thinking...," you say. I say most of us agree with you. The question you must ask, however, is how much are patriots Americans willing to sacrifice to see that our freedoms continue to the next generations. For me..., I will die and fight for those freedoms!

I agree with you in overall principal.

However, we need to recognize there are some programs a great many Americans rely on, that are either whole or in part socialistic.

Social Security and Medicare are two examples.

These programs can't just be eliminated overnight.

What we need is a dialogue.

If social security funds had not been "appropriated' by congress, there would be no problem, except that the Queen of England is listed as the beneficiary of the account.

We do need a program for the millions that have been denied their retirement by corporations for one reason or another.

If all we did was provide those programs to those that paid in there still would not be any problems.

All I'm saying is there is no single answer to today's issues, first and foremost we need to decide who we are, what we want, and after instituting programs, enforce the rules that were set up, with severe punishment for those that intentionally abuse it.

That includes politicians, and most importantly, prosecutors.

The problem with our legal system is there is no reason or benefit for judges or DA's to be honest.

They win approval for guilty verdicts, fund state programs with fed funds for prisons, and are not held accountable when caught lying.

It's a racket only the corrupt government could support.

Edited October 16, 2011 by divemaster5734

[Mr.Nobody]

"...I hate socialist/communist thinking...," you say. I say most of us agree with you. The question you must ask, however, is how much are patriots Americans willing to sacrifice to see that our freedoms continue to the next generations. For me..., I will die and fight for those freedoms!

I do not want to be rude but socialism and communism are 2 different things....Take Norway...socialist but not communist..

I am neutral here...What ever we call the current system, half capitalism and half socialism, it ain't working...

I am not taking sides, I am saying the system we are using right now has got us to 16 trillion in debt...

So what is the best system....I don't know...But both sides of the isle have failed and I blame both...

The only way we the people will make it is to quit being divided and figure out a way to get politicians in office that can

not be bought...If all possible...?

As far as China is concerned, quit buying their products...Look at the tags before you buy...Really,

how much do we owe China..????.

Greed and division are sinking our country...So who do we take care of first...Where do you want you tax dollars to go...

[WallyWeaver]

1) If capitalism works so well and we hate socialism- how is it that we owe a communist / socialist country like China trillions of dollars?

peace.

1. It is first important to understand why we are in the financial mess that we are in today. It is important to state that what got us into this financial mess couldn't really be considered capitalism.

I think we all can agree the majority of our problems came from the housing crises. People are quick to blame the banks but if you look a little deeper the reasons will become a little more clear. I would say a closer look would show government programs like the Community Reinvestment Act and home loans approved through Government Sponsored Enterprises forced banks to give risky loans. Here's a snippet from a Wall Street Journal Article on this:

Mortgage brokers had to be able to sell their mortgages to someone. They could only produce what those above them in the distribution chain wanted to buy. In other words, they could only respond to demand, not create it themselves. Who wanted these dicey loans? The data shows that the principal buyers were insured banks, government sponsored enterprises (GSEs) such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and the FHA—all government agencies or private companies forced to comply with government mandates about mortgage lending. When Fannie and Freddie were finally taken over by the government in 2008, more than 10 million subprime and other weak loans were either on their books or were in mortgage-backed securities they had guaranteed. An additional 4.5 million were guaranteed by the FHA and sold through Ginnie Mae before 2008, and a further 2.5 million loans were made under the rubric of the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA), which required insured banks to provide mortgage credit to home buyers who were at or below 80% of median income. Thus, almost two-thirds of all the bad mortgages in our financial system, many of which are now defaulting at unprecedented rates, were bought by government agencies or required by government regulations.

Link: http://online.wsj.co...0152189446.html

I am no defender of George W. Bush but his administration did warn Congress in 2003 that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were broken and in need of a serious regulation overhaul. Here are some snippets from an article posted in the NY Times from Sepetember of 2003:

The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago...

The plan is an acknowledgment by the administration that oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- which together have issued more than $1.5 trillion in outstanding debt -- is broken.

Link: http://www.nytimes.c...fannie-mae.html

Something else to consider, and what I would consider as the main problem, is the terrible monetary policy employed by the Federal Reserve over the last decade through low interest rates. The interest rates, especially from 2003 to 2005, were held well below known monetary guidelines. What did this do? It added to the already bad government policies low/ bad interest rates which allowed even more unqualified people to get home loans. If the interest rates would have been at a more normal level (higher) we never would have gotten into this mess in the first place because many wouldn't have been able to get loans at all, even with poor government housing policy.

So, through poor government policy and even poorer monetary policy employed by the Fed we are, for the most part, in the crises we are in today. How you can say that is capitalism is beyond me. I don't know how someone could come to that conclusion.

I will tackle the money we owe China in my answer to question 2.

[WallyWeaver]

2) under which administration was the trillions of dollars borrowed from China?

2. This may not be a question that gets to the heart of the matter on our current financial mess. The question should be why do we owe so much money to China? Where did they get that debt?

Well, I would argue, once again, this is mainly the fault of the Federal Reserve.

It is true that China is a major holder of US debt, but they are not the number one holder. The number one holder of US debt is the Federal Reserve and that occurred under our present administration in the White House.

In what form does China have US debt? They are holding onto US Treasuries... T-bills and T-bonds which they purchased, ultimately, from the Federal Reserve.

[WallyWeaver]

3) can a little bit of socialism help America?

3. In a word: No. It would help to look at the classic definition of socialism:

a. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

b. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

The US government does not currently employ socialism today, although it is getting dangerously close in industries like the coal industry through excessive regulation, in my opinion.

But I don't see how government control over the means of production in any industry would help us, at all. We did not become great with socialism and employing it now would not be effective, in my opinion.

4) If China decides to cash in their chips and wants their money back today- how do we re-pay the loaned money?

4. I explained this earlier: how China is holding US debt.

But here it is again: China is holding on to US debt through T-bills and T-bonds. They will not just "cash in their chips" before those T-bills and T-bonds mature because then they would be losing money. That would be foolish on their part and I don't see it happening. Even if they wanted to sell those T-bills and T-bonds to other countries before they matured that would have no bearing on the US.

It would actually be better for us if China wanted us to pay back pre-mature bonds, we would save a lot of money in the long run.