POLITICS, CONSPIRACY THEORIES and The GOD QUESTION.

[ZigsQuote]

Those of you who frequent the OFF TOPIC Forum know that the 3 topics in the title of this thread are the ones that generate the most passion and the most debate. That’s OK. That’s a good thing. If we are intelligent enough to keep our minds open, we can All learn Something.

Besides, it’s good entertainment for those of us who enjoy mental challenges and stimulating conversation. Hell, the Iraqi Dinar RV/RI/RD/RX? has become such a total aggravation and frustration, why not just spend 5 or 10 minutes checking the “What’s New” Section for some shred of REAL hope, and then spend the balance of our daily “fix” time on DV here in the Off Topic forum getting some intellectual stimulation.

And Oh BTW, the jokes and other funny stuff here are great entertainment too, but that’s another subject.

Now then…. I thought about expounding upon each of those subjects in the title, but then I realized that like a few others that frequent this forum, I can get a bit verbose if I let myself and this post would get way too long if I did that.

So let me cut to the chase. For those who value TRUTH and are willing to admit that there are times when certain things that you have believed, maybe even all your life, are now on occasion raising doubts in your mind, I would like to offer you a challenge.

I challenge you to bring that belief or beliefs up onto the table and examine them. If TRUTH is the most important thing to you, then if you believe something that is in fact NOT true, you should want to know that. Would you not agree?

We all hold strong beliefs on the topic subjects. But we don’t all believe the same way. Obviously, we can’t all be right. All our beliefs can’t be true. Some must be wrong or false.

Here’s my recently adopted philosophy or attitude if you will… “I will gladly change my mind if I am proven wrong. Will You?”

I have spent the last 4 years studying and reading dozens of books. The last book I just finished, had it been published 4 years ago, could have saved me all that time and reading because it pretty much answers all of my questions.

If you share my passion for knowledge and truth and you have any doubts about anything you’ve been taught or led to believe in any of these areas, I highly recommend this book to you. It’s Michael Shermer’s latest book --

The BELIEVING BRAIN, From GHOSTS and GODS to POLITICS and CONSPIRACIES –

How We Construct Beliefs and Reinforce Them as Truths.

The title says it all. Shermer lays everything out clearly and conclusively and supports everything with extensive footnotes for those who need that. The book is a great resource and a great read.

Let me close with this. I know that the subject of religion is a particularly sensitive one. I have been on both sides of that issue and I fully understand both sides. I am now an unbeliever. But I fully understand the value of the life of faith to most people. I have made it clear to my family members that I in no way wish to dissuade anyone from their faith. I know what it does to a marriage when one believes and the other doesn’t.

So if your faith is important to you and you are happy and you have no questions or no doubts, then I’m happy for you. Please believe that.

On the other hand, if you do have questions or if you are just interested in understanding more about How and Why we believe the things we do, pick up a copy of this book and I guarantee you will enjoy it and learn a great deal.

Edited August 30, 2011 by ZigsQuote

[Heavyduty053]

Those of you who frequent the OFF TOPIC Forum know that the 3 topics in the title of this thread are the ones that generate the most passion and the most debate. That’s OK. That’s a good thing. If we are intelligent enough to keep our minds open, we can All learn Something.

Besides, it’s good entertainment for those of us who enjoy mental challenges and stimulating conversation. Hell, the Iraqi Dinar RV/RI/RD/RX? has become such a total aggravation and frustration, why not just spend 5 or 10 minutes checking the “What’s New” Section for some shred of REAL hope, and then spend the balance of our daily “fix” time on DV here in the Off Topic forum getting some intellectual stimulation.

And Oh BTW, the jokes and other funny stuff here are great entertainment too, but that’s another subject.

Now then…. I thought about expounding upon each of those subjects in the title, but then I realized that like a few others that frequent this forum, I can get a bit verbose if I let myself and this post would get way too long if I did that.

So let me cut to the chase. For those who value TRUTH and are willing to admit that there are times when certain things that you have believed, maybe even all your life, are now on occasion raising doubts in your mind, I would like to offer you a challenge.

I challenge you to bring that belief or beliefs up onto the table and examine them. If TRUTH is the most important thing to you, then if you believe something that is in fact NOT true, you should want to know that. Would you not agree?

We all hold strong beliefs on the topic subjects. But we don’t all believe the same way. Obviously, we can’t all be right. All our beliefs can’t be true. Some must be wrong or false.

Here’s my recently adopted philosophy or attitude if you will… “I will gladly change my mind if I am proven wrong. Will You?”

I have spent the last 4 years studying and reading dozens of books. The last book I just finished, had it been published 4 years ago, could have saved me all that time and reading because it pretty much answers all of my questions.

If you share my passion for knowledge and truth and you have any doubts about anything you’ve been taught or led to believe in any of these areas, I highly recommend this book to you. It’s Michael Shermer’s latest book --

The BELIEVING BRAIN, From GHOSTS and GODS to POLITICS and CONSPIRACIES –

How We Construct Beliefs and Reinforce Them as Truths.

The title says it all. Shermer lays everything out clearly and conclusively and supports everything with extensive footnotes for those who need that. The book is a great resource and a great read.

Let me close with this. I know that the subject of religion is a particularly sensitive one. I have been on both sides of that issue and I fully understand both sides. I am now an unbeliever. But I fully understand the value of the life of faith to most people. I have made it clear to my family members that I in no way wish to dissuade anyone from their faith. I know what it does to a marriage when one believes and the other doesn’t.

So if your faith is important to you and you are happy and you have no questions or no doubts, then I’m happy for you. Please believe that.

On the other hand, if you do have questions or if you are just interested in understanding more about How and Why we believe the things we do, pick up a copy of this book and I guarantee you will enjoy it and learn a great deal.

So this one man's book has opened your eyes, why because it settled on some of the things that you must have wanted to feel comfortiable with. The author of this book is only publishing his opinion to what faces the people and to sell books. You stated you have become an unbeliever i guess you were refering to the bible and the faith in God. He gave all of us free will of choice to decide for our selves whether we wanted him in our life or can continue down the path of darkness. He will not push himself on anyone. It is not he that needs us it is we that need him. Put your faith in man or put your faith in god your choice. Honestly god will help you understand your choices.

[Jaxinjersey]

Excellent post Zig! Rational, reasonable, open-minded and diplomatic. We all seek comfort. That comes in various forms... faith in religion, or not... understanding people and the world around us... seeking knowledge and clarity, and asking questions for the need to know... the list goes on. But it is the joy of individual choice that is the great catalyst in all of this. To each their own... treading lightly around others... seeking comfort and peace. Thanks for sharing!

[estewart]

Years ago I realized my held beliefs were keeping me stupid.

Held beliefs are inclined to not allow one to exploren for the truth of a given matter. So one's held beliefs keep one boxed in. They prevent growth. Especially, spiritual development.

Never mind that we are taught the opposite of this from being a small child. It is my view, abandoning the beliefs which keep one a prisoner, mind, body and soul, may be one of the hardest things a person can ever do.

[Nelg]

Hi Sig,

You are tackling a broad and challenging arena. Good for you. Truth is the most freeing element in the world. Defining truth can be the most difficult. Especially when everyone is using their own personal definition of truth. You will have your version while another will have theirs. Even trying to come to a definition one has to use some kind of rule, regulation, or law that establishes the boundaries of "truth." A true belief is a belief that will not mislead. Even language or the words we use, if not defined, become a barrier to understanding. Just making a statement about a subject is not sufficient unless one understands whether the writer is making a statement which is literal or a metaphor; and if the metaphor being used is a literal concept.

I would enjoy being part of this string, but I would need to know if there are rules which guide our discussion or is this just a salad bowl of everyone throwing in what they believe?

[ZigsQuote]

Years ago I realized my held beliefs were keeping me stupid.

Held beliefs are inclined to not allow one to explore for the truth of a given matter. So one's held beliefs keep one boxed in. They prevent growth. Especially, spiritual development.

Never mind that we are taught the opposite of this from being a small child. It is my view, abandoning the beliefs which keep one a prisoner, mind, body and soul, may be one of the hardest things a person can ever do.

I agree with you estewart. For me however giving up my spiritual belief is what

freed me to explore other things without the guilt that came with questioning my faith.

Excellent post Zig! Rational, reasonable, open-minded and diplomatic. We all seek comfort. That comes in various forms... faith in religion, or not... understanding people and the world around us... seeking knowledge and clarity, and asking questions for the need to know... the list goes on. But it is the joy of individual choice that is the great catalyst in all of this. To each their own... treading lightly around others... seeking comfort and peace. Thanks for sharing!

Good advice Jax. Are you an Ayn Rand fan also?

[ZigsQuote]

Hi Sig,

You are tackling a broad and challenging arena. Good for you. Truth is the most freeing element in the world. Defining truth can be the most difficult. Especially when everyone is using their own personal definition of truth. You will have your version while another will have theirs. Even trying to come to a definition one has to use some kind of rule, regulation, or law that establishes the boundaries of "truth." A true belief is a belief that will not mislead. Even language or the words we use, if not defined, become a barrier to understanding. Just making a statement about a subject is not sufficient unless one understands whether the writer is making a statement which is literal or a metaphor; and if the metaphor being used is a literal concept.

I would enjoy being part of this string, but I would need to know if there are rules which guide our discussion or is this just a salad bowl of everyone throwing in what they believe?

Hey Nelg... Been a while. You're right that truth can be relative to circumstances as well as other factors. We all have different needs and see things from different perspectives. Perhaps a better word here would be "facts."

I wouldn't wish to limit anyones contribution to this thread. I have no rules to suggest. For me, the God Question has been settled, but what motivated me to start this was the Conspiracy Theory topic.

Their are a number of members here that post stuff regularly on that topic. For them of course it's not theory, but truth. As I began to delve into some of their stuff I found it to be a strange mixture of believable facts and sheer nonsense.

Reading the book that I'm recommending here, I was delighted to find some insight into understanding the whole conspiracy theory issue. In addition to that, the chapter that I loved the most is titled "The Politics of Belief." It clearly lays out why we believe the way we do regarding our political persuasions. Again, great insight.

The author is the publisher of Skeptic Magazine and also writes a monthly column in "Scientific American."

He defines his belief system as follows: "A skeptic simply does not believe a knowledge claim until sufficient evidence is presented to reject the null hypothesis (that a knowledge claim is not true until proven otherwise)." The burden of proof of course lies with the person making the claim.

That all makes absolutely perfect sense to me and that's exactly what I need to be content in my beliefs.

For me things need to make sense and be supported by empirical evidence. No more faith, just reason.

I just thought there might be a number of other people out there on the forums that could relate to my journey and would benefit from this book and so I decided to recommend it in connection with these contraversial topics that we keep finding posted here.

[delta22]

Zig,good post,and I for one would love to participate. May I suggest a book to you sir,before you give up your faith completly. Cracking the Bible Code,byJeffery Satinover,M.D. I found it to be an eyeopener .

[Jaxinjersey]

Good advice Jax. Are you an Ayn Rand fan also?

Oh Yes, first read "Atlas Shrugged" when I was sixteen, and several more times since. Uncanny resemblance to today's affairs. I've got a small "Who is John Galt?" sticker on the back of my pickup... great conversation starter! Still in love with Dagney Taggart!

[ZigsQuote]

Zig,good post,and I for one would love to participate. May I suggest a book to you sir,before you give up your faith completly. Cracking the Bible Code,byJeffery Satinover,M.D. I found it to be an eyeopener .

Hey Delta22... Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not really looking for more

to read right now because I have a backlog of purchased books. I plead

guilty to being an information junkie. But I read the first 3 reviews of the

book on Amazon, was intrigued, and immediately ordered a used, very good

hard back copy for a buck and a quarter. Gotta love that, right?

Lookin forward to gettin it. Thanks again my friend.

[Hntr]

It doesn't take "another" book for me to be convinced of what I do or don't believe. To each their own. However, the guilt or "conviction" I feel in making certain decisions doesn't waiver whether or not I have faith. It guides me. It helps me and it reassures me that I do indeed have faith. I may not live everyday in prayer and read "The Word" every single day but I do believe in God and I do have a strong spiritual faith. I knew right away where I stood when I watched the first of my 3 children being born. IMO, no exploding star or Science created that. My 3 children remind me everyday of what I believe in and they don't even say a word. Keep your books and open your eyes. Another example of God and his Creation, the outdoors. I'm an avid outdoorsman, hunter, fisherman.....etc. I have been in many places whether it be while in the USAF or personal reasons. I have an upcoming elk hunt in Colorado. When I'm standing in the midst of some of the most beautiful scenery in the world I won't be thinking of a book, I will be thanking GOD!

[Hntr]

Zig,good post,and I for one would love to participate. May I suggest a book to you sir,before you give up your faith completly. Cracking the Bible Code,byJeffery Satinover,M.D. I found it to be an eyeopener .

Just ordered it. Be good for me to read while deer hunting. Enjoying God's Country. Thanks

[ZigsQuote]

It doesn't take "another" book for me to be convinced of what I do or don't believe. To each their own. However, the guilt or "conviction" I feel in making certain decisions doesn't waiver whether or not I have faith. It guides me. It helps me and it reassures me that I do indeed have faith. I may not live everyday in prayer and read "The Word" every single day but I do believe in God and I do have a strong spiritual faith. I knew right away where I stood when I watched the first of my 3 children being born. IMO, no exploding star or Science created that. My 3 children remind me everyday of what I believe in and they don't even say a word. Keep your books and open your eyes. Another example of God and his Creation, the outdoors. I'm an avid outdoorsman, hunter, fisherman.....etc. I have been in many places whether it be while in the USAF or personal reasons. I have an upcoming elk hunt in Colorado. When I'm standing in the midst of some of the most beautiful scenery in the world I won't be thinking of a book, I will be thanking GOD!

Hi Hntr..... Thanks for your take. You are obviously very happy right where you are

and that's great. I was once right there too. Things just changed for me. And that's OK too.

I'm very happy where I am now. BTW, I too am an avid outdoorsman, hunter and fisherman,

although i haven't hunted in awhile. When I'm standing in the midst of some of the most

beautiful scenery in the world, I don't need to believe it was created by some mystical being

in order to be in awe and to appreciate the majesty and beauty. I know the geology and the

biology of it all. I don't think we can "KNOW" the source or beginning of it all, and I'm OK with that.

Edited August 30, 2011 by ZigsQuote

[Hntr]

Hi Hntr..... Thanks for your take. You are obviously very happy right where you are

and that's great. I was once right there too. Things just changed for me. And that's OK too.

I'm very happy where I am now. BTW, I too am an avid outdoorsman, hunter and fisherman,

although i haven't hunted in awhile. When I'm standing in the midst of some of the most

beautiful scenery in the world, I don't need to believe it was created by some mystical being

in order to be in awe and to appreciate the majesty and beauty. I know the geology and the

biology of it all. I don't think we can "KNOW" the source or beginning of it all, and I'm OK with that.

My guess would be when you left Wisconsin, you stopped hunting? I respect your opinion. I'm an open minded person and always want to hear people's take on different situations. It boils down to Faith, that's it. I still have questions and don't always agree with things. Well actually don't agree with most things anymore BUT I try everyday to keep certain words of The Bible in mind. Especially when it comes to patience. I hope you find what you are looking for Zig.

[Nelg]

Zig,good post,and I for one would love to participate. May I suggest a book to you sir,before you give up your faith completly. Cracking the Bible Code,byJeffery Satinover,M.D. I found it to be an eyeopener .

Hi Delta22. Thanks for the book recommendation. I am book poor. I have about 3000 books that I have gathered over the period of 50 yrs. in study. Most of them are connected to the Bible in some way. I have a section of history, culture, and philosophy as well. Solomon said, "The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; the are given by on Shepherd. But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. The conclusion, when all has been heard, is fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person." Books give us a great deal of wisdom. They shape our thinking by their thoughts and keep us from thinking on our own.

I'm with Hntr on this one. The "heavens declare the glory of God" and the earth shows forth His handiwork.

[joekooltrips]

Years ago I realized my held beliefs were keeping me stupid.

Held beliefs are inclined to not allow one to exploren for the truth of a given matter. So one's held beliefs keep one boxed in. They prevent growth. Especially, spiritual development.

Never mind that we are taught the opposite of this from being a small child. It is my view, abandoning the beliefs which keep one a prisoner, mind, body and soul, may be one of the hardest things a person can ever do.

Thats the truth, if it isnt fact its filth