Official discussion on the DEBATE

[20MillionDinar]

Those numbers are under the scrutiny of no less than the IMF, WTO, UN, WB, Major corps who are looking to get involved, big time investors, and of course, us The CBI is NOT "cookin' the books".

Please refer to the following link, I posted a few articles half way down the page or so:

http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/77678-members-discussion-thread-for-the-debate-lop-vs-no-lop-sonny1-and-jmw/page__st__60

If I'm not mistaken Lehman's was the 4th largest investment bank which was under the scrutiny of probably every "3 letter" agency you posted above as well as tons of major corporations and other businesses / individuals... Now they are bankrupt! And yes someone was "cookin the books." By the way, Ernst & Young was one of the "outside" auditing companies who was involved. They faced lawsuits for fraud.

Pretty interesting if you ask me. Not saying this is definitely the case but manipulation is all too common with financial institutions, major corporations, and yes even governments.

[MrFnHappy]

Please refer to the following link, I posted a few articles half way down the page or so:

http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/77678-members-discussion-thread-for-the-debate-lop-vs-no-lop-sonny1-and-jmw/page__st__60

If I'm not mistaken Lehman's was the 4th largest investment bank which was under the scrutiny of probably every "3 letter" agency you posted above as well as tons of major corporations and other businesses / individuals... Now they are bankrupt! And yes someone was "cookin the books." By the way, Ernst & Young was one of the "outside" auditing companies who was involved. They faced lawsuits for fraud.

Pretty interesting if you ask me. Not saying this is definitely the case but manipulation is all too common with financial institutions, major corporations, and yes even governments.

Point taken....although I still think the numbers are right, as they just make sense to me.

25T dinar = 21.3B dollars, with roughly a population of 30M people, that leaves $712 per person outside of banks with a portion of that outside Iraq's borders.....not too hard to believe.

Edited August 2, 2011 by MrFnHappy

[Darin]

Point taken....although I still think the numbers are right, as they just make sense to me.

25T dinar = 21.3B dollars, with roughly a population of 30M people, that leaves $712 per person outside of banks with a portion of that outside Iraq's borders.....not too hard to believe.

I find that most people are going to believe what they choose to believe.

For myself, I try to always consider a # of possibilities. This keeps for an open-mind.

And using this process, I also learn much more.. If I was stuck to believe just one thing, I guess I wouldn't have a reason to consider other options or keep an open-mind.

My overall point, just trying to share idea, opinions, and so forth.

[Shick]

I just read the debate and man I tell you it was awesome, I hope and pray that sonny1 is right with his last post and if he is it's going to be a great day in the neighborhood.

[SurfingTheDinarWave]

Both gentlemen had great points and it was a great debate, one thing that seemed little unfair was jmw had a lot of help sonny1 had none, had I known this was coming I would have had sonny1 prepared with his links and facts where he may have needed them and well even his math, but the one fact is that can't be explained through research or history is what sonny1 pointed out in closing: when has the circumstances of events and situations in the world ever come to the time and space they are now surrounding Iraq or any other country for that matter? ABSOLUTELY NEVER

it's what you, jmw, sonny1, adam, nor I can explain an unprecedented event to which not one person knows the outcome of, only God hiself knows the answer and we are only privy to watch it happen and be a part of the history it will create! Just my

Here's a little food for thought since this is an important article that you lopsters seemed to overlook basically because it would give you less to talk about and negate your argument:

Word has spread 'round the globe, partly due to the diligent efforts of the dinar forums, which have compiled vast amounts of research, data and first hand intel, in an effort to determine, and plan for, the two most important pieces of information associated to this grand event – "the rate" and "the date".

120+ countries will see changes in their currency values along with Iraq upon the initiation of this unprecedented event. Each nation's currency rate will ultimately (if not immediately) be based mostly on the nation's assets (precious metals, oil, gas, GDP, etc.). See the article in Business Line "Drifting Back to the Gold Standard"

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opinion/columns/s-s-tarapore/article2032360.ece?homepage=true

Here's Steve Forbes telling about the US doing it in 2012:

http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/forbes-us-gold-standard/2011/08/31/id/409369

[jmw]

Both gentlemen had great points and it was a great debate, one thing that seemed little unfair was jmw had a lot of help sonny1 had none, had I known this was coming I would have had sonny1 prepared with his links and facts where he may have needed them and well even his math, but the one fact is that can't be explained through research or history is what sonny1 pointed out in closing: when has the circumstances of events and situations in the world ever come to the time and space they are now surrounding Iraq or any other country for that matter? ABSOLUTELY NEVER

it's what you, jmw, sonny1, adam, nor I can explain an unprecedented event to which not one person knows the outcome of, only God hiself knows the answer and we are only privy to watch it happen and be a part of the history it will create! Just my

Here's a little food for thought since this is an important article that you lopsters seemed to overlook basically because it would give you less to talk about and negate your argument:

Word has spread 'round the globe, partly due to the diligent efforts of the dinar forums, which have compiled vast amounts of research, data and first hand intel, in an effort to determine, and plan for, the two most important pieces of information associated to this grand event – "the rate" and "the date".

120+ countries will see changes in their currency values along with Iraq upon the initiation of this unprecedented event. Each nation's currency rate will ultimately (if not immediately) be based mostly on the nation's assets (precious metals, oil, gas, GDP, etc.). See the article in Business Line "Drifting Back to the Gold Standard"

http://www.thehindub...e?homepage=true

Here's Steve Forbes telling about the US doing it in 2012:

http://www.moneynews...08/31/id/409369

excellent points...and I would agree with you and Mr. Forbes, that the US and other countries will have to migrate back to some kind of gold standard...But Iraq doesn't have gold they have oil and too much currency. with a M2 of 60 trillion how much gold would they need to back a revaluation??? Their current GDP is roughly 100 Billion per year and of this about 90% of it current oil production. This revenue is what they use to run their country...which is barely enough. Their current output is around 2.8 mbpd....even if they double it their GDP wouldn't be much more the 200 bn per year and they are nowhere near being able to double it....however, has they do increase their GDP the currency will have an opportunity to grow and this will be our best chance of getting a return on our investment....but to all of a sudden do it overnight to even ten cents is not currently physically possible.

BTW..Sonny did have help (Darin helped him with his questions) He also had my questions ahead of time and certainly has the resources to get help with them (he is very close to both Adam and Medic)...it doesn't matter how DIFFERENT Iraq is to any other historical situation, there are still financial principles that must be applied...and one of the big ones is how much currency is in circulation....and one of the best and fastest ways to reduce this is through a redenomination.

[dinaris4me]

This was a year ago but seems to be headed to an obvious conclusion.

[dontlop]

when someone makes the arguement that the oil has to be out of the ground for it to count leads me to say this ...

 

do you think the natural storgae facilities  of iraqi oil  arent good enough .. they been holding that oil for 1000s of years .. why would they have to build an above the ground facilitiy .. pump all the oil out of its present natural  storgae facility .. into another man made facility .. then pump it from there  to the markets ..whats next it has no value till its refined ?

 

if they had to build a man made facility to pump it out of the ground into a man made facility   then pump it again to the markets . thats just added cost to the crude that is not necessary .

 

its already in a storage faciltiy ..

 

what if iraq builds a  underground facility in the earth .. and pumps it into that  first .. then repumps it to the market .. would that be what is required .or does it have to be in a metal or plastic container .. man made for it to count as an asset . id like to se this requirement  that it has to be above ground before it can be used as an asset . or is this just an opinion .. sub soil assets are being added to countrys national accounts .. right now .. and i say they do not have to be in man made facilities to be used as assets to that nations wealth .

 

 

Energy and Mineral Resources

In this section, the methodology used in the estimation of the value
of nonrenewable resources is described. At least three reasons lie
behind the diffi culties in such calculations. First, the importance of the
inclusion of natural resources in the national accounting systems has been
recognized only in the last decades, and although efforts to broaden the
national accounts are being made, they are mostly limited to international
organizations (such as the UN or the World Bank). Second, there are no
private markets for subsoil resource deposits to convey information on the
value of these stocks. Third, the stock size is defi ned in economic terms—
reserves are “that part of the reserve base which could be economically
extracted or produced at the time of determination”—and, therefore, it is
dependent on the prevalent economic conditions, namely technology and
prices.6

Despite all these diffi culties, dollar values were assigned to the stocks
of the main energy resources (oil, gas, and coal7) and to the stocks of
10 metals and minerals (bauxite, copper, gold, iron ore, lead, nickel,
phosphate rock, silver, tin, and zinc) for all the countries that have
production figures.

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/92667-iqd-backing/page-8#ixzz2M8FPVrtt

 

 

Do Changes in Wealth Matter for
the Generation of Well-Being?

Natural resources are special economic goods because they are not
produced. As a consequence, natural resources will yield economic
profi ts—rents—if properly managed. These rents can be an important
source of development fi nance, and countries like Botswana and Malaysia
have successfully used natural resources in this way. There are no
sustainable diamond mines, but there are sustainable diamond-mining
countries. Behind this statement is an assumption that it is possible to
transform one form of wealth—diamonds in the ground—into other
forms of wealth such as buildings, machines, and human capital.

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/92667-iqd-backing/page-8#ixzz2M8Fhr9Hk

 

 

Natural resources play two basic roles in development:
• The fi rst, mostly applicable to the poorest countries and poorest
communities, is the role of local natural resources as the basis of
subsistence.
• The second is as a source of development fi nance. Commercial
natural resources can be important sources of profi t and foreign
exchange. Rents on exhaustible, renewable, and potentially
sustainable resources can be used to fi nance investments in other
forms of wealth. In the case of exhaustible resources these rents
must be invested if total wealth is not to decline.

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/92667-iqd-backing/page-8#ixzz2M8G0Zva2

 

 

maybe im wrong .. but it seems like these tools  have become avaliable  recently

 

[dontlop]

A phrase I like to refer to:

Not all re-denominations are a LOP, however all LOPs are a re-denomination.

Read more: http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/77729-official-discussion-on-the-debate/#ixzz1Tr1fnfqB

This statement is quite correct, the UK re-denominated its coinage in 1971.

Maybe I am taking a too simplistic view, if there is to be a RD( as advocated) then what is the hold up on this. The effects would be minimal as there would be no change in the value. The currency would run in parallel till old notes expired, dual pricing could operate in stores, little effect outside Iraq.

So what is stopping a RD taking place, and an international currency with RV to follow?

The fact there appears to be external controlling factors would indicate its not that straightforward. To my mind this indicates there is a high possibility of a straight RV.

this is true

[stealthwarrior]

That was GREAT!!! Thank you for this very informative debate.Many,Many people here blow me away with thier knowledge of what is truly going on.Thank you again gentlemen.

[dontlop]

We still don't know