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Holy God!! This is incredible -- the diligence, focus and work on behalf of us all is very much appreciated.

I have a question / scenario that I'd like to run by someone with a tax background as this may very well also affect many of us.

Scenario: I own 500,000 Dinar outright. Half of the Dinar has been in my possession for three or more years now. I also have a pending Reserve Order for 10M Dinar, with a 30-day window to complete my payment of the 90% balance. On day 22 of the 30-day window, the RV occurs. I take the 250,000 Dinar in my possession, convert the currency to USD and pay off my reserve order. I know own 10,250,000 Dinar that is less than a year old. However, I didn't take physical possession of the 10M Dinar until post RV.

My tax question is: when does the tax event occur to appropriately assess either income tax/capital gains tax -- is the tax not assessed until the tax payer has physical custody of the taxable item? Is the tax, then, based on the value of the item at the time of acquisition? How is this different from my placing on offer and good fait deposit on a house -- in this case, my 10% down payment on my reserve order -- and the loan getting funded at the close of escrow. Taxes do not accrue to the buyer until legal possession of the property has occurred.

As you can see, I had an epiphany a while ago (I sure hope so!!) and I am glad that you posted this messsage so I could ask this question. Hoping you might have some insight.

Regards, TracyS

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Wow, Mark. I remember when you said you had to do some more research because of questions you still had but here it seems you are trying to help the IRS as well. I suppose when you find something that isn't clearly spelled out, that is the best way to approach them and your recommendations may be more gratefully accepted. And, what with the amount of reseach you have obviously done seemingly covering all aspects of this venture, it seems they would realize that and seriously consider your position and conceivably follow all you recommendations. Let's hope so and we all thank you so much for bring this to the attention of the IRS so that we may all be treated fair and equal.

Edited by tommyboy
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Holy God!! This is incredible -- the diligence, focus and work on behalf of us all is very much appreciated.

I have a question / scenario that I'd like to run by someone with a tax background as this may very well also affect many of us.

Scenario: I own 500,000 Dinar outright. Half of the Dinar has been in my possession for three or more years now. I also have a pending Reserve Order for 10M Dinar, with a 30-day window to complete my payment of the 90% balance. On day 22 of the 30-day window, the RV occurs. I take the 250,000 Dinar in my possession, convert the currency to USD and pay off my reserve order. I know own 10,250,000 Dinar that is less than a year old. However, I didn't take physical possession of the 10M Dinar until post RV.

My tax question is: when does the tax event occur to appropriately assess either income tax/capital gains tax -- is the tax not assessed until the tax payer has physical custody of the taxable item? Is the tax, then, based on the value of the item at the time of acquisition? How is this different from my placing on offer and good fait deposit on a house -- in this case, my 10% down payment on my reserve order -- and the loan getting funded at the close of escrow. Taxes do not accrue to the buyer until legal possession of the property has occurred.

As you can see, I had an epiphany a while ago (I sure hope so!!) and I am glad that you posted this messsage so I could ask this question. Hoping you might have some insight.

Regards, TracyS

Great question, when does the tax event occur? I am a financial planner and have been for over 15 years. It appears to me that in this scenario it would be taxed like exercising an option on a stock trade. The taxable nature is determined by date you take possession of the actual stock, in this case currency. Ultimately leading to ordinary income tax.

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What a capital effort! THAT was a LOT of work! Please keep us informed of any replies/decisions. In fact, I wouldn't mind having a printable copy of that. Thank you!

I have attached a PDF of the document or you can find and download it here:

http://cid-7df30d726eef249f.office.live.com/browse.aspx/.Documents?Bsrc=EMSHOO&Bpub=SN.Notifications

Best of Blessings,

Mark

Recommendation for Guidance Priority List.pdf

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Holy God!! This is incredible -- the diligence, focus and work on behalf of us all is very much appreciated.

I have a question / scenario that I'd like to run by someone with a tax background as this may very well also affect many of us.

Scenario: I own 500,000 Dinar outright. Half of the Dinar has been in my possession for three or more years now. I also have a pending Reserve Order for 10M Dinar, with a 30-day window to complete my payment of the 90% balance. On day 22 of the 30-day window, the RV occurs. I take the 250,000 Dinar in my possession, convert the currency to USD and pay off my reserve order. I know own 10,250,000 Dinar that is less than a year old. However, I didn't take physical possession of the 10M Dinar until post RV.

My tax question is: when does the tax event occur to appropriately assess either income tax/capital gains tax -- is the tax not assessed until the tax payer has physical custody of the taxable item? Is the tax, then, based on the value of the item at the time of acquisition? How is this different from my placing on offer and good fait deposit on a house -- in this case, my 10% down payment on my reserve order -- and the loan getting funded at the close of escrow. Taxes do not accrue to the buyer until legal possession of the property has occurred.

As you can see, I had an epiphany a while ago (I sure hope so!!) and I am glad that you posted this message so I could ask this question. Hoping you might have some insight.

Regards, TracyS

To understand this clearly you must focus on only a couple of simple concepts: basis and income recognition. First lets talk basis.

The "basis" you have in any asset is the amount you spent to get the asset. You also add in costs of getting the asset (i.e. deliver costs) and any costs of improvements to the asset. For your situation the application is simple. Your basis is the total amount you spent to get the dinar. The market value of the dinar does not matter.

For income recognition we need an event that will determine the value to be received. For you that will be the event of exchanging the dinar for USD. When the RV takes place does not matter at all. What matters is when you have an income recognition event.

So this is how it works - your basis is whatever you paid for the dinar - your income is determined at time of exchange (what you get for the dinar less your basis). When you can determine the income is when you recognize the income.

As an example, lets say that when the RV takes place you exchange 100,000 dinar for $300,000. (Assume you have a basis of $3,000.) You decide to hold the rest of your dinar into March of 2012. For 2011 you have income of $297,000. The rest of the income is recognized in March of 2012 when you do the exchange.

Simply restated. You have income recognition when you do the exchange. That is it - period.

So if it is really that simple, why do people talk about timing of the RV with their dinar so much? Typically there are two reasons to discuss this. One is for assets that will be "capital gains assets" if held for more than 12 months. However, the timing of the RV is not important here. Only the timing of the income recognition (exchange) is important to determine the holding period.

The other reason to discuss timing is for "Gift Tax" purposes. When making a gift you must take into account the value of the asset at the time of the gift. That is all. If the value is too high, the person making the gift will have gift tax consequences. For income tax purposes, the person receiving the gift generally takes the basis (and holding period) of the person giving the gift.

I hope that is helpful.

Best of Blessings,

Mark

Thank you all for your kind words. I don't expect to hear anything back from the IRS directly, but if I do I'll be sure to pass it along. What I expect is that we will have to wait for the IRS to issue their annual guidance statements. Either they will give guidance or they won't. We can only wait, hope, and pray.

Best of Blessings,

Mark

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Thanks Mark for your endless pursuit of the truth. Naturally we all hope for the lower number. More importantly I hope that I have to worry about this......soon!!!!!!! On another thought I think we all you a drink, thought, toast , some expression of gratitude for you time on this subject and your willingness to share. If and when it happens, I will add you to the short, now becoming longer, list of people I owe a drink and more. Thanks.

Edited by lechesuerte
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Mark, Bless you too and thanks for being so sincere and giving so much back to all of us. Appreciate finally getting a definitive response on my tax question. Makes total sense to me now. Cheers!!

Tracy - thank you for the kind words. I wish this was a definitive response but it isn't. These are my arguments to the IRS about the way things "should be." My belief about current law is just the opposite. My analysis of current law and regulations leads me to believe that right now the IRS is looking for "intent." I believe that under the current system if you or I are audited, since our intent in purchasing dinar was for investment, the IRS will assess ordinary income treatment to any gains we have.

What I am doing with this submission is pointing out why I believe it should be otherwise and trying to get the IRS to do something to formally and publicly agree that it should be long-term capital gains. Now we have to see if they bite or they just ignore me. :)

My suggestion is that you discuss this with your CPA and/or attorney and have them advise you on your options.

Best of Blessings,

Mark

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  • 1 month later...

Wow, Mark. I remember when you said you had to do some more research because of questions you still had but here it seems you are trying to help the IRS as well. I suppose when you find something that isn't clearly spelled out, that is the best way to approach them and your recommendations may be more gratefully accepted. And, what with the amount of reseach you have obviously done seemingly covering all aspects of this venture, it seems they would realize that and seriously consider your position and conceivably follow all you recommendations. Let's hope so and we all thank you so much for bring this to the attention of the IRS so that we may all be treated fair and equal.

I'm afraid this solution is too logical for the IRS, but good luck anyway.

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Question: If i go overseas and buy coins ie old coins or gold coins, you get the pic. and bring them back to sell maybe on ebay some to coin collectors and stuff. would i have to claim that?? It might be a silly question to some, but i don't know.

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hi Adam one question I was told that there was a small window to re-invest the gains to defer the taxes any comment ?

There is talk, and this actually makes sense, that if we roll our investment into another investment within 60 days, we will be able to defer paying taxes. In fact, this is exactly what I've been paying very talented advisers and attorneys to help me set up for the VIP members. (Kind of like rolling a 401k into an IRA - if you do it within 60 days, you can do so with no penalty.)

To take it a step further, we have worked out investment strategies that allow us to reinvest in ways that not only defer our tax liability - but turn great gains into even greater gains.

Here's some more info: http://dinarnews.net/benefits

Hope that helps!

:tiphat:

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