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Well thanks I guess for the famous "christian pitty", and I'm truly sorry you have this delusion. Well I guess if I had to take a stab at it I would venture to say that my parent's are responsible for my creation. I see where you are going though, to which I will AGAIN ask, and hopefully you will answer, WHAT CREATED GOD AND OR GOD'S BRAIN?.

No, the non believers don't bring that at all, all we bring is a different view, we can't help that you perceive free and logical thought as "venomous" It's not your fault though, and I understand the defensiveness for it is a mechanism that EVOLVED into the psyche of believers. A necessary one that helps to keep the mind in a credulous state by deeming contradictory views as hate, malice, evil, venom, etc. May logic grant you rational and the knowledge that you can indeed think for yourself without celestial permission and fear. Good luck to you. Peace

Both science and religion have the same problem and that is what was before the beginning.

Where did the matter and energy that caused the big bang originate?

Where did god come from? Who created god?

Being these questions will not be answered in our lifetime I will stand with science. I choose to deal in logic and real evidence not stories have been re written, re interpreted and politicized for the personal gain of popes, emperors and televangelists.

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Ok so what is the evidence? Evidence that doesn't include tales or rhetoric. What is the SCIENTIFIC evidence?

Let me ask you, do you believe in miraculous healings in jesus's name?

LOL! Right because religion is so highly cultured..... paaaaaalease

Oh yes, yes, yes . . . I believe in miracles . . . have had probably 7-10 of my own! Yes, He gave us power and authority in His Name!!!! Praise God!

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Ok, so then please answer me this. How come no AMPUTEES have ever been healed in Jesus name? I must have asked this question 3-4 times now during the course of this thread and have received NO answer. It seems most believers shy from tough questions, so AGAIN, WHAT CREATED GOD? Another question I asked numerous times and as typical to no avail.

P.S. PLEASE ANSWER BOTH OF THESE QUESTIONS.

Peace

In the Book of John, He tells us that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God . . . later on it says and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among men. You might consider reading the whole chapter. God always has been . . . He is infinite going backwards the same as forwards. Nobody created Him. Of course, I believe the Bible.

I am sure that there have been amputees healed in the Name of Jesus! I will do some research . . . and see what I can find . . . especially in some foreign countries where there has been transformation in the people and even the land has been transformed and is producing enormously. I know that it is His will to heal the amputee . . . have you ever asked HIM to heal them? This probably means that you are one and if you served in our military and that was the result, Thank you . . . sincerely . . . thank you. I certainly will pray that He heal you, if this is the case. He has healed me many times and it could not be scientifically explained!

But even more than that I will pray that He heal your wounded soul and spirit . . . He can only fill you up as much as you empty yourself out! Peace to you . . .

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And Jesus said, " Do not cast your pearls before swine" Pearls as meaning something of value for example "Wisdom" or "Redemption" swine as being a fool, someone who won't care or does not see their value.

This is nothing more than "Pearls in front of swine" Wisdom in front of Fools. This is a waste of time.

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And Jesus said, " Do not cast your pearls before swine" Pearls as meaning something of value for example "Wisdom" or "Redemption" swine as being a fool, someone who won't care or does not see their value.

This is nothing more than "Pearls in front of swine" Wisdom in front of Fools. This is a waste of time.

Thanks, Hammy but I have been praying for these dudes and I am not giving up until He tells me to. Yes, I am very familiar with that Scripture and have had to stop casting before. God Bless!

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So then if "god" is supposedly infinite, then by all logic, it could be just as plausible that the universe is infinite and we are all part of a random process.

Please friend don't waste your time looking for amputees that have been miraculously healed, because you will not find any. Umm, no, thankfully I am not an amputee nor would I ever become a sacrificial lamb for Americas corporations by joining the business that is killing for profit or as you put it the military. Having said that, i know there are countess vets that have prayed and asked "god" to heal their maimed bodies to no avail. You would think your "god" would answer the blessings of his children that served their country and lord by risking their own lives in his name before he would bless someone with a car payment for ordering the miracle manna bread from a TV evangelical who prays on the poor and ignorant. Just watch BET on any Sunday after hours to see these salesman in action.

Ok, you pray for me, and I will think for you. One must first have a soul/spirit for it to be wounded. I will be just fine. I suggest you save your prayers for the RV. Heck I will take any positive vibes for that to occur :) Peace to you and yours as well.

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish".

Capike . . . surely you have not hardened your heart so much toward God that you feel that you do not even have a soul or spirit! I do not always agree with tv evangelists . . . but you can not judge the multitude with the few. Peace back at 'cha!

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Again, my views are not directed towards "god" or in spite of "god" for I cannot emote on to something I feel doesn't exist. Again, it's the same as asking how one could harden their heart towards Santa Clause. The idea of a soul, or spirit as it relates to the supernatural is pure speculation and has absolutely nothing to do with one's human emotional output. One does not need to believe they possess such things in order to have compassion and or be a good person.

Have you not ever known anyone whose soul left their body and returned . . . in an accident, surgery, etc.? It is definately not speculation . . . even drs. will tell you that! and yes, you can be a good person but we, as Christians do not believe that being good is what gets us there . . . it's Jesus. Although we try to do the best that we can and pray for grace to walk out this thing called life . . . and it has everything to do with one's human emotional output . . . when the soul/spirit is wounded . . . it affects their emotions drastically and then it comes out of their mouth.

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Have you not ever known anyone whose soul left their body and returned . . . in an accident, surgery, etc.? It is definately not speculation . . . even drs. will tell you that! and yes, you can be a good person but we, as Christians do not believe that being good is what gets us there . . . it's Jesus. Although we try to do the best that we can and pray for grace to walk out this thing called life . . . and it has everything to do with one's human emotional output . . . when the soul/spirit is wounded . . . it affects their emotions drastically and then it comes out of their mouth.

It's called a hallucination.

96% of scientists are agnostic or atheist

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It's called a hallucination.

96% of scientists are agnostic or atheist

DI . . . that is not true any more! I think it may have been in the past but the more scientist learn, the more they realize that this could not have just happened! I have read recent articles on several scientist that have changed their minds. Science has already proven that the Big Bang Theory is wrong. . . you may want to get some updated information. Peace . . .

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DI is absolutely correct this is a physical, explainable phenomenon that occurs, and happens quite often when the brain is deprived of oxygen. The light, seeing friends, family through near death experiences is all part of the natural world. Sorry my friend but I must still disagree that the "soul" is related to emotions as it correlates to morality. If your view were correct then there would be no atheists who are good, and no believers who are bad and that is obviously not the case.

That doesn't even make sense . . . and for such a brilliant mind! Of course, there are good people and bad people either direction! Not all of them are wounded and some of them have learned to control their flesh . . . especially their mind and their mouth. Science has proven that when a person is wounded, angry, depressed, etc. how it affects their bodies (sickness) and their emotions. At any rate . . . have a good day!

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That doesn't even make sense . . . and for such a brilliant mind! Of course, there are good people and bad people either direction! Not all of them are wounded and some of them have learned to control their flesh . . . especially their mind and their mouth. Science has proven that when a person is wounded, angry, depressed, etc. how it affects their bodies (sickness) and their emotions. At any rate . . . have a good day!

I have noticed that every time Cap makes a point there is no rebuttal. You just ask another question.

Why doesn't god preform real miracles. Verifiable miracles. Like re growing a limb for a vet. Healing a baby with a cleft palate?

Show me one verifiable miracle. Meaning something appearing that was not previously there.

We does god allow babies in africa or anywhere for that matter to be born with aids? It seems that should be easy for him to fix. Are you not praying for them enough?

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I have noticed that every time Cap makes a point there is no rebuttal. You just ask another question.

Why doesn't god preform real miracles. Verifiable miracles. Like re growing a limb for a vet. Healing a baby with a cleft palate?

Show me one verifiable miracle. Meaning something appearing that was not previously there.

We does god allow babies in africa or anywhere for that matter to be born with aids? It seems that should be easy for him to fix. Are you not praying for them enough?

DI . . . you are hilarious when you pull this stuff! Surely, you do not think that we are going to fall for this! You figure it out! You have been told the truth, you refuse it so you are on your own. Have a nice day.

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I have noticed that every time Cap makes a point there is no rebuttal. You just ask another question.

Why doesn't god preform real miracles. Verifiable miracles. Like re growing a limb for a vet. Healing a baby with a cleft palate?

Show me one verifiable miracle. Meaning something appearing that was not previously there.

We does god allow babies in africa or anywhere for that matter to be born with aids? It seems that should be easy for him to fix. Are you not praying for them enough?

I have responded every time. Look at the above post and tell me where there is a question. He is the one with all the questions . . .

Also, DI . . . you are getting ready to see some . . . believe me . . . the enemy is pouring out all that he has and the LORD OF HOSTS is getting ready to rise up as the mighty man of war. There will be many signs and wonders and then maybe you will believe.

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I have responded every time. Look at the above post and tell me where there is a question. He is the one with all the questions . . .

Also, DI . . . you are getting ready to see some . . . believe me . . . the enemy is pouring out all that he has and the LORD OF HOSTS is getting ready to rise up as the mighty man of war. There will be many signs and wonders and then maybe you will believe.

Not a chance. I spent 18 years with blinders on, I will never go back. I have seen the light.

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Just came across this the other day - thought this was very interesting......try and make it to the 3rd one........ some of you will appreciate I am sure!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdrLYipYjS0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpDhuTTKCfQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjAKJzfmbIU

That was absolutely, incredibly amazing. I have never seen that before. The problem with it is those who believe as I do have no problem watching these and confirming what I already know to be true. Awesome, AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those who don't want to believe or have no interest, I don't think would make it through all three. If they did I would love to hear what they think.

Those who don't believe are mad at God because He has not healed a loved one or them themselves. Are mad because small children are born with aids in Africa, or disaster happens on Earth. They forget that there is an opposing enemy that hates Jesus, the cross, and a Living God. If you are not for Jesus, you are against Him. 2 teams, no gray area. God's team, and those who are ANTI Christ. Or those who are against God and His Son. I choose the winning team. The opposing side is the one killing children, and brings about death. God gives everyone a choice. Choose the wrong side and risk running with the enemy. His objective is to LIE, KILL, and DESTROY. Don't blame God for your choice or the choice that others have made. There are Christians all over the world. China, Africa, Iraq, Iran, Asia, Europe, India, The Americas.................All nations will hear the Gospel and then the end will come. It does not say all people will hear the Gospel, it says all Nations. Great Videos. +10 if I could.

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I’ve been following this posting since it began and have decided to weigh in, as I think I have a somewhat different perspective than most of you. To begin with, I need to say that many of you are my friends or at least we have been “friendly” in other form postings. Thus, I hope you know that I do not mean to be offensive in any way, shape or form. Secondly, I want to state a few credentials, I have lived in 8 countries and have traveled to 76. I have visited many historical sites of the major religions from Rome, Jerusalem, Kyoto, Salt Lake, Tokyo, and Tikal. I have studied theology since I was 5 and have a collection of religious books dated as far back as 1606. I was a youth group leader when I was in my early teens but converted from Catholicism to Buddhism at the age of 15. Buddhism is not so much a religion as a “way of life”, we seek truth and reality, no matter where it leads us.

With that out of the way, I want to first ask the non-believers something: Why do you interrupt other’s postings such as this? They are clearly labeled and therefore if you are not of the Christian faith, then why not just pass on? I think I read where you want to “set the records straight” or open the eyes of those who have never question their faith or words to those effect. If that is so, then why not start your own posts such as “Debate between evolutionist and creationist.” I think many of the people that you have been debating here, would probably gravitate over and give you a good debate. I guess what I’m asking is that you please be kind and considerate of others. If it is not your way, then do not enter their place of rejoicing, leave them to find their own path. If you wish to engage them, then open another door to a place to do so…but in a non threaten manner, where all may learn. Heck, I’d love to monitor the debate.

Secondly, I’m wondering from both camps what exactly are you trying to prove to each other? From my point of view, and remember, I have friends on BOTH sides, you haven’t changed anyone’s mind. Each side has “dug in their heels”. It is only someone like myself with an open mind that actually looks at the evidence and finds at least a nugget of truth in everything I am reading. So, again, I’d like to ask that IF a meeting place was open between the form where we could debate this, then please be open minded…if not, then why even show up…you won’t change your mind, what makes you think you will change theirs?

Finally, I want to throw something out to the non-believers. Why you may not believe, can you not see some good in religion? I know I can. You see, I work in an industry that is very near the “underbelly” of civilization. It is a night club. Almost everyone I deal with is into drugs…the vast majority of them also have a very long rap sheet. They will steal, lie, cheat or even give away their bodies for a night if it gets them their next fix. Many are unwed mothers with 2 or more babies at home.

And yet, I have yet to find one of them (after more than 4 years) that doesn’t believe in God. Many of them wear crosses and many have tattoos that deal with Christ. Each one of them believes life at some point will get better, in other words they have “HOPE”. If they didn’t have that, I have little doubt they would take their lives without thinking twice. Also, as bad as they are, they will not do things like murder, and many of them will sell their bodies for the night before reverting to stealing, because they know it’s a sin (yes, both probably are, but that’s how they think). So…believe it or not, religion DOES stop many people from doing great harm to others. Thank of it, they have no other role model to mold their ethics. If you try to get the “elite” to come to their senses, how would you deal with these people living on the fringes that have nothing else to live for and nothing else to lose?

That's my :twocents:

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First, I wish to thank you for your response, which was well thought out and non-threaten, even polite. If I may, I’ll like to respond in like manner and in a constructive paragraph by paragraph way. In your first paragraph, you state that you respond because of unsubstantiated claims. Normally, I would agree. For instance, if one was to post a statement, “The US was based on Christian principals”. You and I both know that is incorrect. In this case, I would say, blast away with facts. However, for this particular post, it is evident that it is a Christian who wishes to merely discuss his faith and give thanks with like minded believers. There is nothing to debate as far as I can see. If he were to say something like, I wish to praise my God who I believe is real, then I take it you would leave them alone?

Per your second paragraph, you state that you wish to enlighten and that other great debaters do likewise. Hmmm...they write their books, that both believers and non-believers can buy if they choose or they are invited to attend a debate...but I don’t recall one of them waltzing into a church and demanding equal time. Again, this post was between believers... not people looking for a debate.

Third paragraph, of course you are right, religion can make people do atrocious things. You have my 100% agreement. You will not find me in disagreement with anything you wrote.

Fourth paragraph, you mention speaking volumes about true character of the people. Yes, they are this way in all that I have spoken to, which number in the thousands. I did not take the time to take a 100% sample but having taken advance stats, I feel that I’m well within a couple sigmas of the actual number. Do all of them believe this way? I do not know, but going back to your first paragraph I did state that in 4 years, I have yet to find one non believer. So I did do as you first requested, I stated my belief as far as I know (plus at the end, I said it was my two cents :) ). Are they less intelligent and lower income as you state? Yes, in my opinion they are. But not sure what the point is. There is a section of the population that debates such as yours won’t get you anywhere...they live only with hope and fear. They are at level 1 or 2 of Manslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, you are trying to change those at level 4 or 5.

Now the one thing I admit, I simply do not know, is whether they would commit like crimes without the influence of religion. I have a hunch, and it is only a hunch, that their belief in the stick (hell) keeps some (many, most?) from more hard core crimes. I have not seen any evidence to support this opinion. I would be interested to see any that you may have, really.

In summary, thank you for the exchange. I think we are much closer in mind than you may believe. However, my concerns are merely with the place in which you start the debates, as a moral person who merely wishes to enlighten, being kind and considerate is ALWAYS the right thing to do, don’t you agree? And I look forward to our future talks. Peace to you also my brother.

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Thank you Tiff and Cap.I enjoyed reading opinions and responses from both points of view. I havent lived the experiences that you Tiffany have..what a life you have lived and got to experience and it is quite evident that both of you are intelligent people. You see life for me wasnt easy.. there were so many times I wanted to throw in the towel and give up but because of a tiny prayer i prayed in an orphanage I was sent the best parents in the world full of love and yes faith.. christian people that would adopt a child as their own. My mother was abused by her father and my dad was a 8th grade dropout and in spite of everything they went through i wouldnt trade them for anything. I watched my parents grow in love and life experiences and watched how much they both loved and above all helped people. They lived the walk and set the example of people of faith and above all religion. I will have to say there are times when religion gives people that are searching or nonbelievers a bad name but in my opinion and walk in life that wasnt what happened to me..They werent perfect but they learned something new everyday and shared to the best of their abilities to help someone either with a kind word or food or opening their doors to a stranger for a place to stay and even taking a child into their home as their own. I know there are folks out there that are like this and that arent christians but just for me thats why its very simple and some will say maybe even simpleminded but ive been called worse. For me it boils down to how you were raised...some will take to heart what they have experienced some will go in a different direction. Church faith religion is easy for me because of my childlike faith and for me personaly will never change..Im not going to judge anyone..my dad taught me well in that area he always said if you dont have something good to say dont say anything at all and believe me there are times when that is very hard. I love you both because i can..ok not as debated as you 2 were and if you want to bash away than I guess you will but if not I thank you for listening...

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Capike,

I again appreciate the manner in which you respond, you are a gentleman and I very much am enjoying our volley of words. :)

To begin with, I find it a bit amusing what you said in your first paragraph regarding Vern. If you were to dive into my past postings, you would find that Vern actually hunted me down regarding a posting I did, in which I questioned a comment about religion. I believe he sent me to hades, ha ha BUT..once I provide additional information to clarify my position, he was most gracious and we have ever since been friends. So, again, I find myself agreeing that he is an outstanding representative of what Christianity was meant to be. I also appreciate that you conceded the initial harshness of your tone up until the point that you felt challenged.

As far as getting into a debate…hmm..you haven’t quiet won me over yet. Once something is so labeled in that it was for the sole purpose of a Christian audience…myself, I would have walked on by. Perhaps in this one instance, my belief in good conduct towards others takes precedence over wanting to set the record straight. I wish to find a way to co-exist with believers, as I do not think I will win them over with “my” truth during my life time. If your path is to set the record straight no matter what, then I suppose that is where we have a differences of opinion and strategy. Touché

As per the rest of your posting and the questions you ask of me, may I be bold and request that we discuss this part in our own posting? Perhaps we can label it: Does Religion lower the likelihood that someone will commit a crime?

I very much would like to share my thoughts, experience and if the topic waxes and wanes in other areas, such as behavior finance (i.e. criminals and how they get their money), then perhaps I can add some evidence to support my opinion. Any of those who would read this posting and would like to join us, would be most welcome. And that way, I would not feel as if I “hijacked” this posting.

I will set it up later this evening. Again, Thank you for your insight and I look forward to engaging you further in a very interesting topic.

Littlesam..I appreciate your posting as well…I think you made a very valid point that where you were raised and by whom, has an enormous impact on how you approach religion. Thank you!

Edited by Tiffany23
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