very good info..

[praxis]

Praxis, did you try to stop people from blaming Bush for everything? I'm guessing you probably didn't try to stop people.

Actually, YES! YES I DID and STILL DO! Go back and read my past posts on here and i trace back the US's foreign policy problems back to WWII and the Military Industrial Complex. EVERY PRESIDENT SINCE WWII HAS A HAND IN THE MESS!

[praxis]

Your "bbbut Bush" talking points do not mitigate the sweeping damage that this CURRENT President is doing.

You are simply too consumed with your Bush bitterness to acknowledge anything.

You obviously read my posts and "imagine" I said things i did not say...lol Just a few posts above I said "Obama inherited a huge mess and made it worse with his policies"

Bbbbut, you can't see through your bitterness to acknowledge that...lol

Hey hoping..."Pot calling the kettle ......................."

[praxis]

Praxis,

Just so you are aware, I made no assumptions about you one way or the other. I simply posed questions to you based on prior statements made by you.

All and all I can see you are very angry about having to participate in a war you did not agree with. I can understand that to a point, however as you said you signed a contract. You knew in advance of signing that contract you might have to someday go to war.

You were there because you chose to be. So are you now saying that because of your service, and inspite of seeing the misery of the Iraqi people first hand, you have a special entitlement to exploit them but the rest of us are greedy?

Now that said it does not lessen my gratitude and appreciation for your service, so please do not take it that way.

And this statement-

all I read on these dinar sites is people ******* in moaning because of the "lazy, backwards, slow iraqi people" in an arrogant, whiney tone like "why can't these dark-skinned muslims make me rich and rv already!

is abhorrent and very telling.

I would never consider Iraqi people to be lazy or slow. If they are backwards it is only in comparison to our standard of living which is very different from theirs and they take a very dim view of our way of life. As I see it, the Iraqis are desperately trying to intertwine their cultural beliefs with an entirely new political system, the likes of which few of them truly understand. They are literally trying not to lose themselves in the process.

The latter half of the above statement to me is just utterly ridiculous, not all Muslims are dark skinned and therefore this description has no validity whatsoever.

So I guess my question to you is, were the Iraqi people better off under the rule of Saddam? What would have been your answer to help these people if not what we have already done? If this war was unjust, what do you consider "just" for the Iraqi people? Surely you do not believe they were better off pre-war? Would less innocent Iraqis been killed under Saddam?

I know there are many opinions about who truly will benefit from this war. Somebody always benefits from a war and yes we have lost young men to what seems to be a senseless action. I would never want to see another die in combat but I dont' believe the Iraqis would be any better off without the war. JMO and I look forward to your reply- Barb

Your response demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of the reality and pain of war, so I am willing to bet you have lived a pretty comfortable life.

And this statement-

all I read on these dinar sites is people ******* in moaning because of the "lazy, backwards, slow iraqi people" in an arrogant, whiney tone like "why can't these dark-skinned muslims make me rich and rv already!

is abhorrent and very telling.

You obviously can't read posts right if you think i believe that myself about the iraqi people. I was making a point that plenty of posters on this site and others have that opinion of the iraqi people AND THOSE PEOPLE WHO SAY THAT ABOUT THE IRAQI PEOPLE IS ABHORRENT AND VERY TELLING ABOUT THEIR RACISTS, BIGOTED, SELFISH, AND GREEDY BEHAVIOR THAT I COMMENTED ON!

You ask very basic questions that have obvious common sense answers, yet you seem to continue to be confused and lack some common sense.

I am not just bitter about risking my life for an illegal war, but as a US CITIIZEN ANGRY THAT THE CONSTITUTION HAS BEEN TRAMPLED ON AN ALMOST EVERY POSTER ON HERE WAS ASLEEP WHEN PAST PRESIDENTS WERE DOING THIS BUT ACT LIKE AMERICA WAS GREAT UNTIL A YEAR AGO...ROFL!!!

NOW, ALL THESE FAKE TEABAGGER PSEUDO POPULISTS WATCH A FEW EPISODES OF GLENN BECK AND FOLLOW PRISONPLANET.COM CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND THINK THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED...ROFL

All and all I can see you are very angry about having to participate in a war you did not agree with. I can understand that to a point, however as you said you signed a contract. You knew in advance of signing that contract you might have to someday go to war.

You were there because you chose to be. So are you now saying that because of your service, and inspite of seeing the misery of the Iraqi people first hand, you have a special entitlement to exploit them but the rest of us are greedy?

Again, you fail at basic reading comprehension. You just repeated the same thing i already said and act confused..lol I said I signed a contract and knew the risks, and thats why I sucked it up and went despite my opposition. Duh! Yes, i chose to be there! Duh! I never once exploited any iraqi or other human being while over there. I actually gave alot of my own money, food, water, and other supplies to poor iraqis every chance I could. So, the fact that I own dinars DOES NOT make me greedy or exploitive. THE OWNS WHO ARE EXPLOITING THE IRAQI PEOPLE WERE THE BUSH ADMIN, CONGRESS, THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX WHO WERE ITCHING TO GO TO WAR WITHOUT ANY TRUE THREAT! THE OTHER EXPLOITERS ARE THE PATHETIC PUNKS ON HERE NEVER TOOK ANY REAL RISK IN THE WHOLE WAR, YET THEY BOUGHT DINARS OFF OF ALI OR SOME BANK AFTER SOME CONTRACTOR BUDDY TOLD THEM ABOUT IT AND ARE ****** BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT INSTANT MILLIONAIRES A FEW MONTHS AFTER BUYING DINARS YET STILL HAVE AN OBVIOUS HATRED FOR DARK-SKINNED MUSLIMS! OF COURSE NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE DARK-SKINNED, BUT THAT DOESNT STOP THE BIGOTS ON HERE FROM THINKING THAT!

And get off that lame argument that "the iraqi people are better off now that we got rid of Saddam" so that justifies Bush lying to US and causing over a million deaths so far and over a trillion in dollars in war spending! Based on this ridiculous justification you try to present then why don't we just invade EVERY country that right now has a leader that treats their people badly?! Any takers? NOPE! We don't because it doesn't benefit us too! WHY DIDN'T WE TAKE SADDAM OUT WHEN HE GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE AND THE IRANIANS? OH THAT'S RIGHT, WE HELPED HIM GET THEM AND USE THEM AND LOOKED THE OTHER WAY BECAUSE WE WERE BENEFITTING FROM HIS ACTIONS THEN! NO PROTESTS FROM US BECAUSE OF THE OLD

"THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS MY FRIEND PHILOSOPHY"

Barb, I think you are a good person, just really naive!

[hoping...]

Keep drinkin' ... throw in few pain meds and get back to us.

[praxis]

Keep drinkin' ... throw in few pain meds and get back to us.

your snappy one-liners are lame bro!

[pep007]

Praxis, Please dont take this the wrong way but I dont really understand what you are tring to relay to us. What do you expect us to do. One minute you tell us Bush is bad. I except that. Next Obama is just as bad and every other president since WWII was bad. We didnt accomplish anything in the wars since WWII except to kill millions and have our soldier die. The Tea Party isnt any good. What are you trying to tell us. I know we dont live in a perfect world. I do want to see you get over the hurt you feel. WE are behind you so do not get upset. This is just my opinion since you were in the service, you may be feeling some bad thing about being in the war and may need some help from the military to get over your feelings. I admit I am not the smartest person in the world, not even close, but you seem to be intelligent. If I could help you get over this I would. I just dont know what to tell you with out you getting upset. I am trying to understand. Please dont take this the wrong way. Your friend pep.

[praxis]

Pep, I don't have any lingering pain man from war, and I am not living in the past about my war experience either. I am proud of my time in service, and I am glad that I was personally able to help some Iraqi people and see some great historical/biblical sites during my tour. I don't hate Bush for going to war for oil or whatever other "tangible" strategies he had for going in. I do hate Bush for lying to me and the rest of the US population, and the world trashing the Consititution in the process.

I teach Problems of Democracy and Economics to high school seniors. I have a master's degree in community psychology and do a ton of volunteer work for various non-profits. I have a very good understanding of group behavior, group think, and how political and corporate interests and how ONLY 5 CORPORATE CONGLOMERATES CONTROL VIRTUALLY ALL MAJOR MASS MEDIA OUTLETS. Too many people on here and on other sites and in my everyday travels have fallen victim to one of the oldest and yet most effective psychological con games in human history: "Divide and Conquer" While they always had a divide between so called "liberals" vs "conservatives" "democrats" vs. "republicans" in our two-party system, the mass media propaganda machine is even more potent today because of the deregulation of mass media markets as well as the loss of objective journalistic integrity in favor of opinionated journalistic egomaniacs posing as "unbiased"

They make it so convenient to be told only what you want to hear instead of objective facts and stories in favor of biased stories that ignore the opposing side and dismiss it as not important or just completely ignore it. Their is no real "investigative" journalism because that costs time and money. Very little to no foreign news bureaus. So now, if you are a conservative, you can turn on fox news and they can preach to the choir and never see objective truth, and just point the finger at anyone who disagrees with over-generalized and poorly defined words such as "socialist" The liberals can ignore all of the conservatives and only watch MSNBC and their ego-maniac "journalists" can spit out their biased views and preach to their choir, and call the fox news watches over-generalized terms as well. Both sides watch their viewpoints being repeated every day slowly "indocternating" both sides to be blind loyal puppets repeating the same catch-phrases, buzz words, and soundbites and ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THEM IS A BLIND SHEEP DRINKING THE KOOL-AID AND SHOULD BE MOCKED!

I was just trying to point out that both political parties created foreign and economic policies that have led us up to this 13 trillion dollar deficit, runaway bank and wall st fraud. If you do any google search for a bar graph on the federal deficit and match it up with major foreign policies/wars and drastic economic policies from all presidents since WWII you will see a pattern. The deficit grows exponentially at different points based on bad policies and their are trade offs. Plus, if you understand how economics works, then there is always a delay between when a new economic policy is enacted until its effects show up. Politicians from both sides have sometimes wrongfully given credit and/or blame for it. For instance, it is wrong for democrats to praise Clinton for the economy in the 90s because he was just riding the wave of the internet boom and the tech stock bubble. He also deserves blame for repealing the Glass-Steagall ACT and signing NAFTA which led to massive outsourcing of jobs overseas (but what conservatives won't admit is that both the repeal of Glass Steagall and NAFTA were deregulated free market policiy moves that failed, yet now they are claiming regulation is bad...ROFL)

GWBush took office when a natural recession was happening due to the tech bubble burst which wasn't his fault, but he made it worse by cutting taxes and extending those tax cuts while engaging in two wars at the same time (NO PRESIDENT IN HISTORY BEFORE HIM EVER CUT TAXES DURING WAR) AND THAT IS WHY OUR NATIONAL DEFICIT SKYROCKETED TO MASSIVE PROPORTIONS AFTER CLINTON CREATED A BUDGET SURPLUS THAT WOULD SLOWLY PAY DOWN OUR DEBT! PEOPLE ON HERE ALSO FORGET THE FAMOUS QUOTE FROM CHENEY THAT "DEFICITS DON'T MATTER!"

So, for political purposes and to mask the problems, Alan Greenspan replaced the tech bubble with another bubble (housing) lowered interest rates, got the bush administration to lower lending standards, knew this was dangerous yet did NOTHING until it hit the fan! He passed a 700bn dollar bail out just to delay the crisis from fully exploding until the next president took office. So if Bush was driving a car that was speeding towards the edge of a cliff (economic crash) he just hands Obama the steering wheel right before the car goes over the cliff and bails out saying "good luck sucker" So Obama had very little choice: either slam on the breaks let the car go over the cliff and hope we survive (extremely risky) or speed up (add more stimulus) and try to jump over the cliff and land safely then later head to the shop for repairs. He went how the momentum was taking him.

Obama was an idiot for trying to pass health care before dealing with regulating wall st, banks, and getting people jobs first and that mistake is costing him and us dearly!

[pep007]

ok, tell us what we need to get out of this. Theirs really nothing that I can do except keep my money safe and out of the bank. If it RV's will this help us get out of the mess we are in.

[hoping...]

your snappy one-liners are lame bro!

So are your weak and questionable "war" stories.

[pep007]

Praxis, please dont reply to that, be a stronger person

[praxis]

ok, tell us what we need to get out of this. Theirs really nothing that I can do except keep my money safe and out of the bank. If it RV's will this help us get out of the mess we are in.

haha...i don't have time to write a book on here tonight but there are some simple fundamental changes that should happen but probably won't because of the powerful lobbyists and two-party machines.

There are things you can do pep, and they are fundamental as well. Search for truth even if it means looking at sources you normally don't agree with and critiquing yourself. I never claim to have all of the answers or know everything or claim to be right all the time. I make a point to always remind my students to question me!

Participate in dialogue with other people like me on sites like this with an open mind. I honestly don't come on here to read a bunch of dinar posts or to pick fights with people. The main reason why i post or respond to people's posts on hear is for psuedo "field research" to start a dialogue and see how people respond. i want to see how complete strangers around the US think about different issues. I do this on conservative-leaning sites like this as well as liberal-leaning sites. I sometimes use these posts as examples in classroom discussion (surprise!) on various issues such as foreign policy, but i mainly use in for my unit on mass media and the internet.

As for basic fundamental changes to try to fix the our government and economy, they are pretty basic and common sense:

1. Every bank, wall st firm, or company that we "saved" that was deemed "too big to fail" should be broken up like the unregulated, out of control monopolies that many of them really are, and every high level ceo, exectutives, and board members fired and have to re-apply for their jobs. Their current contracts/bonus become null and void. Every bonus is used to pay back the bailout. If they are re-hired, they will receive a very low standard pay with high-level peformance incentives to regain their lost pay as long as they behave ethically and perform well in the future. Part of the broken up organizations will be temporarily controlled by the government and they interview qualified unemployed individuals to fill those positions. Those companies would be slowlly be given back their autonomy as new companies, but would have stipulations to use a portion of their profits for so many years to help pay off the bailout and pay down the national deficit in return for the initial bailout and early subsidies to get themselves up and running.

2. Tighter bank regulations on what types of investing certain banks should be able to be involved in and define and classify those banks so the average person can know what level of risk each type of bank is involved in. Ban Derivatives trading and all high-risks side-trading on wall st and the banks! This is one of the biggest hidden problems to our system that few people know about that is the real reason for the near collapse and possibly one in the future! Corporations are no-longer and should never have been considered "legal individuals with individual rights"

3. Tighten lending on housing and auto loans, but put stricter usury laws in effect to ban extreme high interest predatory lending and credit card abuse. Reinstate Glass-Steagall

4. End free trade agreements like NAFTA, CAFTA, and others that encourage US corporations to close factories here and open them up in Latin America and East Asia for exploitive cheap labor at the expense of US workers. Give tax breaks and incentives for "MANUFACTURING" industries to stay or come back to the US. One of the biggest mistakes was to turn our economy from an industrial/manufacturing economy to a "service" economy. We don't produce everything, and now China does!

5. To slowly lessen our risk/reliability of China loans, and our Dependence on OIL, we need to SERIOUSLY SACRIFICE BY CHANGING OUR LIFESTYLE LIKE WE DID DURING WWII. We need to seriously close down outdated foreign military bases and our footprint around the world in strategic ways. We need to redirect some of our regularly scheduled domestic projects and focus them on INFRASTRUCTURE! Our electric grids, rail, air, roads, waterways are really outdated and need modernized to compete and stay competitive in the 21st century economy. Bush failed on this great opportunity after 9/11 when everyone was united. Instead of pulling us together and asking us to sacrifice and rise to the occassion, he told us to go shopping...lol We need another "put a man on the moon in 10 years" patriotic challenge to our scientists to develop and mass produce economically and commercially efficient transportation and energy. ( you mean to tell me we haven't been able to find a way to mass produce anything better than the combustion engine to power cars in over 100yrs...lol)

I grew up in a steel-town that once was once thriving decades ago. My father worked in that mill for 30 plus years and he would get laid off a lot during my childhood and we struggled and sacrificed alot to make it through. My town never really recovered. it is sad. Offer incentives like i mentioned above to new energy and manufacturing companies related to the infrastructure movement to take those vacant spots.

Politically.

Create a completely bi-partisan and independent party movement to bring back the Republic to the people instead of the two-party corporate machines

1. New Amendment legislation must be introduced in every local, county, state, and federal levels and any politician that refuses to vote yes to them gets voted out the next election: No one can hold a specific public office for more than 8 years in their lifetime. if the president is limited 8 years max (10 in rare circumstances), then so should every other elected position in the US such as mayors, senators, representatives. Their will no longer be any lifetime benefits of your SERVICE to our country, so no more career politicians living fat off of the government

2. ELIMINATE THE 2 PARTY SYSTEM OF POLITICS AND EVERYTHING THAT COMES WITH IT! Or at the very least, ease 3rd party requirements that make it virtually impossible for 3rd party candidates to enter a race and join in debates. We have the technology and means to do away with the archaic Electoral College system and have a straight up direct democracy vote the way it should be.

3. Reverse the Supreme CT ruling that Corporations are "individuals with rights" and therefore can donate unlimited resources to any and all candidates. Every election on a local, state, and national level should be publically funded through public media outlets. Each candidate is given equal time in public debates, can post speeches and ideas online and receive equal tv time ONLY on public tv and radio outlets. This allows for elminates the "candidate with the most corporate campaign money wins" system we have now.

I have more ideas, but i have some things to take care of, so i will post again later.

I appreciate the honest dialogue though!

[praxis]

Deregulation started long before President Bush came to power, and it was enthusiastically pursued by both Democratic and Republican administrations.

The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 separated the activities of commercial banks, which take deposits, from investment banks, which invest money. It was repealed in 1999.

That relaxation of the rules enabled commercial lenders, like Citigroup, to trade instruments such as mortgage-backed securities and collateralised debt obligations.

Many see the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act as a major, direct cause of the current financial crisis.

But it was signed by a Democratic President, Bill Clinton, and supported by many other Democratic politicians, among them the scourge of Bush deregulation Nancy Pelosi.

What is more, President Bush actually increased the burden of regulation on US companies, enacting in 2002 what he called "the most far-reaching reform of American business practices since the time of Franklin D Roosevelt", the Sarbanes-Oxley Act.

A response to a number of major corporate and accounting scandals, including the collapse of the energy group Enron, Sarbanes-Oxley significantly increased the reporting requirements and accountability of company boards and management. As president, he bears the ultimate political responsibility and his party has paid the ultimate political price

So the image of Mr Bush as the arch deregulator and the Democratic Party as the champion of stricter rules for business does not quite tally with the evidence.

I agree. I know the deregulation happened way before, but i dont have time to write a textbook on this site. Sorry. I did not say Bush was the arch deregulator, but republicans do champion it though in theory and push for it as much as possible, not always, but moreso than the dems because that is a basic tenent of their ideology!

[Barbann]

Praxis,

Truthfully, I have not seen any one refer to the Iraqi people with the descriptives you used though I admit I may have missed them. I have not read all the posts. It seems to me that these may be your perceptions of what people are saying rather than actual statements that have been posted.

What does mystify me is that you are angry about the Constitution being trampled on while we were all asleep at the wheel but then you go off on a rant about teabaggers who are actually trying to bring some attention to the fact that our Constitutional rights have been trampled on?

If I am confused it is by your rage against the machine type rhetoric first one way then the other.

The part I questioned about you holding dinar is I got the impression from your post that you felt the dinar investors were exploiting the Iraqi people yet because you served it is ok for you and not others?

And I have no argument lame or otherwise about whether or not the people are better off pre or post war. I asked you straight forward honest questions. I assumed since you served there you might have had some insight.

Nothing justifies a government lying to it's people and I don't pretend otherwise.

You don't know me and I am far from being naive. As for my pretty comfortable life, well compared to a lot of folks, I am blessed. I have a roof over my head, food in my mouth and a vehicle to drive.

That said, I was raised an Army brat by a 30 year veteran. My Dad, even til the day he died at 87 years old said, were he able, he would proudly serve again. He served in the Korean War and WWII. He never complained about what he did. He didn't complain about being blown off of a tank and walking around aimlessly in the woods for 3 weeks in a foreign country before he was found. He never complained about the schrapnel that kept having to be removed from his body for the rest of his life. He never complained about the reoccurring dingy fever that plagued him about every 3 yrs compliments of the South Pacific. He was never angry that he fought wars that were not of his making. He was sad that he lost friends, many in front of his eyes, and still he never complained. He could never have an MRI because the sound would take him back to the battle front like he was still there.

That is the understanding I have of a man who went to war. I was raised around many just like him. All served, none complained, they just did what they had to do.

It is clear to me from your slurs ( duh x 2) and remarks as to my lifestyle, level of knowledge of the world and politics that you would much rather pound your chest and make your opinions known ( all caps yelling) rather than have a real conversation.

So be it.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Barbann

[pep007]

Thanks for the explanation, but I was wondering about what you said. You said if we take the banks, dismantle them, make the CEO's reapply for there job and do as you said. How come we just didnt let them fail and let the smaller banks that were doing the things the right way take there place? Yes we may have gone into a depression but wouldnt we have come back stronger than before the crisis? It would have been hard for awhile but we would be better off. I still believe we are no better off with the bail-out than without it. Also how come when the banks do pay the bailout money they owe, the government takes that money and uses it for something else? It should be put back for the deficit. All we are doing is digging a bigger hole, are we not? Am I missing something? I like the prospect of term limitations and not paying them for the rest of there lives. The trade agreement are hurting us. As far as the third party, I would like to have a little more choice other than just demo. or rep. They always say they are running for change, but we all know they are set in there ways. If there was a third party voted in as president he still wouldnt be able to do anything ether because that would cause a stalemate, would it not. He would have no one to back him. Yes we should do without the lobbyist and or corp. backing. Something you didnt touch on were the UNIONS, I think they are making thing hard on the rest of us, they get paid high dollar for the rest of there life and we get the bill. Thanks for the lesson.

[praxis]

Praxis,

Truthfully, I have not seen any one refer to the Iraqi people with the descriptives you used though I admit I may have missed them. I have not read all the posts. It seems to me that these may be your perceptions of what people are saying rather than actual statements that have been posted.

What does mystify me is that you are angry about the Constitution being trampled on while we were all asleep at the wheel but then you go off on a rant about teabaggers who are actually trying to bring some attention to the fact that our Constitutional rights have been trampled on?

If I am confused it is by your rage against the machine type rhetoric first one way then the other.

The part I questioned about you holding dinar is I got the impression from your post that you felt the dinar investors were exploiting the Iraqi people yet because you served it is ok for you and not others?

And I have no argument lame or otherwise about whether or not the people are better off pre or post war. I asked you straight forward honest questions. I assumed since you served there you might have had some insight.

Nothing justifies a government lying to it's people and I don't pretend otherwise.

You don't know me and I am far from being naive. As for my pretty comfortable life, well compared to a lot of folks, I am blessed. I have a roof over my head, food in my mouth and a vehicle to drive.

That said, I was raised an Army brat by a 30 year veteran. My Dad, even til the day he died at 87 years old said, were he able, he would proudly serve again. He served in the Korean War and WWII. He never complained about what he did. He didn't complain about being blown off of a tank and walking around aimlessly in the woods for 3 weeks in a foreign country before he was found. He never complained about the schrapnel that kept having to be removed from his body for the rest of his life. He never complained about the reoccurring dingy fever that plagued him about every 3 yrs compliments of the South Pacific. He was never angry that he fought wars that were not of his making. He was sad that he lost friends, many in front of his eyes, and still he never complained. He could never have an MRI because the sound would take him back to the battle front like he was still there.

That is the understanding I have of a man who went to war. I was raised around many just like him. All served, none complained, they just did what they had to do.

It is clear to me from your slurs ( duh x 2) and remarks as to my lifestyle, level of knowledge of the world and politics that you would much rather pound your chest and make your opinions known ( all caps yelling) rather than have a real conversation.

So be it.

I am only going to respond to the few things here that are relevant to moving this conversation forward.

1. I honor and respect your father

2. No, people on this site do not come out and literally say those exact comments about the iraqi people, but that is what they mean. It reeks of it. I've witnessed enough subtle bigotry in my life to read between the lines.

3. The "teabagger" movement is not a real populist movement. Yes, there are thousands of well-meanng citizens who are caught up in it and have joined, but the creators and corporate sponsors in charge of it can all be traced back to the Republican party and Fox news. The republican party to strategically get back in power knew they had to find away to go after Obama indirectly once true fiscal conservatives/populists were up in arms after Bush's bailout in Oct 2008. Notice how the Republican party distanced itself from Bush asap and neve bring him up anymore? So, they strategically took advantage of that anger and hijacked it for their own purposes. Notice how Palin is strategically trying to align herself with it as much as possible by distancing herself from McCain, blaming him for the election failure, yet she knows she can not survive as a politician without the republican party.

The republican party wants fiscal conservatives and populists to believe in the "illusion" that the teabagger movement is completely authentic and grassroots, but it really is not. You know how the democrats were mesmerized by Obama's speeches and promises of taking back America and Republicans said they were all brainwashed sheep believing in a false prophet that only says things people want to hear? Well, that is what the teabagger movement's real agenda is for the republican party. Palin is trying to strategically position herself into that position and her fox news gig now will give her alot of face-time to try to harness and polish that facade.

If the true fiscal conservatives and populists wanted a more authentic candidate to wrap themselves around, then why not contininue the underground support for ron paul? just a thought.

PS. I wish the movement was real, but any real movement will always try to be hijacked by people in power. it does not matter what philosophy or party. That is why all third parties in history were either aggressively attacked and destroyed by the two dominant parties that felt threatened by them or slowly accepted the 3rd party ideology on a limited basis to appease the movement. The republican party is using the teabagger movement as a form of appeasement, because the republican party has not been fiscally conservative in over 20yrs and now is trying to handle that backlash.

[praxis]

Thanks for the explanation, but I was wondering about what you said. You said if we take the banks, dismantle them, make the CEO's reapply for there job and do as you said. How come we just didnt let them fail and let the smaller banks that were doing the things the right way take there place? Yes we may have gone into a depression but wouldnt we have come back stronger than before the crisis? It would have been hard for awhile but we would be better off. I still believe we are no better off with the bail-out than without it. Also how come when the banks do pay the bailout money they owe, the government takes that money and uses it for something else? It should be put back for the deficit. All we are doing is digging a bigger hole, are we not? Am I missing something? I like the prospect of term limitations and not paying them for the rest of there lives. The trade agreement are hurting us. As far as the third party, I would like to have a little more choice other than just demo. or rep. They always say they are running for change, but we all know they are set in there ways. If there was a third party voted in as president he still wouldnt be able to do anything ether because that would cause a stalemate, would it not. He would have no one to back him. Yes we should do without the lobbyist and or corp. backing. Something you didnt touch on were the UNIONS, I think they are making thing hard on the rest of us, they get paid high dollar for the rest of there life and we get the bill. Thanks for the lesson.

Pep, that is the 13 trillion dollar question! What would have happened and how painful would it really have been if Bush/Obama did nothing and let the dominos fall where they may?

If you look at the first Great Depression and several examples of other countries that have collapsed financially in the 20th Century we can get a possible glimpse as to what may have happened without the bailout. It seems like it takes about 10-15 years to really recover (Russia). Russia lost control over most of its international territories (former soviet states) and lost other strategic advantages. What would have happened to the US interests in Iraq and Afghanistan? Would we still have had the ability and means and willpower to continue to fight and finish these wars or would we have left? how would this change the global balance of power the US has over most of the rest of the world? Maybe we lose our status as a global superpower and China and/or Russia takes that role and we take decades to try to regain that status? what about the war on terror? What most people fail to realize that Bin Laden and Al Quada don't care about our freedoms, they only wanted to get the US influence out of their region, and they felt the only way to strategically do that was to force into a war stalemate, drain us of our resources until we got frustrated and left or financially collapsed as a result of spending every last dollar on stubbornly continuing to try and win a war at all costs. We collapse and move out of the middle east and they won!

Now, the bailouts of banks and the auto industry is NOT socialism. The proper economic term is Corporate Welfare. If it were socialist, our government would have taken complete control over and absorbed all assets. Not the american ideal but that would have been more productive than Corporate Welfare which the government makes the tax payer absorb all of the risks and losses, but allows the private business to keep all of the profits. Now Obama has the task of trying to find a way to force these banks and corporations to give back what they should, and regulate their business practices. That is why it is so important to break them up so we no longer have any corporation or bank that is "too big to fail" because "too big to fail" is code word for garaunteed corporate welfare and government bailouts no matter what risks they take!

So, i think the HIDDEN reason why both bush and obama did not let the system fail is because they were not concerned about saving the country or the american people, but they were saving the United Corporations and Banks of America. The republic known as the USA only exists as an idea in the minds of the people anymore. Multinational/Transnational banks and corporations run the country and most of the world via the Fed, IMF, World bank, etc.. Corporations were given the status of personhood with legal rights. The ACTIVIST CONSERVATIVE JUDGES OF THE SUPREME COURT 2 days ago gave corporations (under the false argument of their first amendment rights) UNLIMIMITED POWER TO PURCHASE EVERY POLITICIAN AND EVERY ELECTION! THIS IS IT IN A NUTSHELL!

[kmmr]

could you possibly email me this to my personal addy? kme@gra.midco.net i would really appreciate it

[mikey]

No. You are right. Bush didn't say he would be transparent. He just acted like he was. Like when he said,"We know for a fact that there are weapons of mass destruction". Or better yet. He was the only president in history to use no bid contracts so that his whole administration could get rich. They never did give up their intrest in Haliburton did they. So when everyone is casting stones be aware that you live in a glass house.

Hummm How did all those thousand of peaple die? You know the ones thes died of some type of nerve gas?? how many peaple have to die before it become WMD?

[Barbann]

Praxis,

I don't know how we get around the rhetoric currently spouted by both parties. I do not support either party but I do support those who are supportive of the Constitution. In all movements someone has to start it and I believe the teabaggers are the ones that have begun. It is natural that because it is seen as a conservative movement in the first place that the Republicans have gravitated toward it, but even the evil Fox news has pointed out that the Republicans are trying ride the coattails of the movement for their own agenda.

Though not perfect what I have seen and heard among those I know actively involved is that it is a grass roots effort and once there is suspicion of a highjacking they will oust those parties immediately. The facts have been written and are researchable. They cannot continue to be a false witness to their own record. Video is an amazing tool with which to call one into accountabilty.

Here is the problem you and I have. You firmly believe that all that claim to be patriots are nothing more than pawns of the Republican party/ Fox news and I submit to you that many people are smarter than that. I do believe that the core values of this country are being reawakened and that finally and ever so slowly are headed in the right direction.

While you are continually eluding that those who watch Fox News, listens to Glen Beck and claim to be conservatives are brainwashed by propaganda, I think that if you take the time to examine the information they are disseminating you will see that much of it is based in historical authenticity. In fact Glen Beck has spent hours on his show outing both parties and blatently telling the viewing audience that they have both sold us down the drain. I have to believe that you have never really watched his show or you would know that.

The republican party is running just as scared as the democrats at this point and rightfully so. The disallusionment this entire country feels at this point is becoming more evident by the day. I personally think that the movement is fueled by our ability to get information we were not privy to all that long ago. No matter who is spouting the rhetoric, it can be fact checked somewhere on the net these days so the status quo politicians days are numbered. They are being outed in record numbers for their actions and lack of action. We know we have been lied to and that our Constituional rights have been trampled on by our gov't and judiciary. The things that my father fought for have been stolen by people with a pen and paper who counted on us not noticing because we were all too busy living life. And we didn't notice until very recently and then we got mad.

As far a Sarah Palin goes, I don't believe she needs the Republican Party, I believe they need her. McCain is an arrogant good ol boy who thought he could ride his tragic POW history into the Presidency. They brought on Palin, IMO, as an answer to Hillarious ( just in case) and were totally stunned when the entire country identified with her. When the attention suddenly and unexpectedly shifted from McCain to Palin I think they knew they had made a strategic mistake, tried to turn back the clock and as a result it bit them all in the butt. McCain lost the election because McCain is a liar and blatently lied in national debates on television. Obama won because he projected himself to be some sort of real change architect and the people bought the hype. Of course having the beloved Oprah Winfrey stand and support him was probably what really got him elected because we all know his credentials were and are seriously lacking. Oprah on the other hand has earned much respect as an intelligent woman and has the credibility Obama doesn't have.

Praxis, I think fundamentally you and I agree on the core issues so I will leave it at that. Thank you for taking the time to converse with me. I do appreciate it.

[praxis]

Praxis,

I don't know how we get around the rhetoric currently spouted by both parties. I do not support either party but I do support those who are supportive of the Constitution. In all movements someone has to start it and I believe the teabaggers are the ones that have begun. It is natural that because it is seen as a conservative movement in the first place that the Republicans have gravitated toward it, but even the evil Fox news has pointed out that the Republicans are trying ride the coattails of the movement for their own agenda.

Though not perfect what I have seen and heard among those I know actively involved is that it is a grass roots effort and once there is suspicion of a highjacking they will oust those parties immediately. The facts have been written and are researchable. They cannot continue to be a false witness to their own record. Video is an amazing tool with which to call one into accountabilty.

Here is the problem you and I have. You firmly believe that all that claim to be patriots are nothing more than pawns of the Republican party/ Fox news and I submit to you that many people are smarter than that. I do believe that the core values of this country are being reawakened and that finally and ever so slowly are headed in the right direction.

While you are continually eluding that those who watch Fox News, listens to Glen Beck and claim to be conservatives are brainwashed by propaganda, I think that if you take the time to examine the information they are disseminating you will see that much of it is based in historical authenticity. In fact Glen Beck has spent hours on his show outing both parties and blatently telling the viewing audience that they have both sold us down the drain. I have to believe that you have never really watched his show or you would know that.

The republican party is running just as scared as the democrats at this point and rightfully so. The disallusionment this entire country feels at this point is becoming more evident by the day. I personally think that the movement is fueled by our ability to get information we were not privy to all that long ago. No matter who is spouting the rhetoric, it can be fact checked somewhere on the net these days so the status quo politicians days are numbered. They are being outed in record numbers for their actions and lack of action. We know we have been lied to and that our Constituional rights have been trampled on by our gov't and judiciary. The things that my father fought for have been stolen by people with a pen and paper who counted on us not noticing because we were all too busy living life. And we didn't notice until very recently and then we got mad.

As far a Sarah Palin goes, I don't believe she needs the Republican Party, I believe they need her. McCain is an arrogant good ol boy who thought he could ride his tragic POW history into the Presidency. They brought on Palin, IMO, as an answer to Hillarious ( just in case) and were totally stunned when the entire country identified with her. When the attention suddenly and unexpectedly shifted from McCain to Palin I think they knew they had made a strategic mistake, tried to turn back the clock and as a result it bit them all in the butt. McCain lost the election because McCain is a liar and blatently lied in national debates on television. Obama won because he projected himself to be some sort of real change architect and the people bought the hype. Of course having the beloved Oprah Winfrey stand and support him was probably what really got him elected because we all know his credentials were and are seriously lacking. Oprah on the other hand has earned much respect as an intelligent woman and has the credibility Obama doesn't have.

Praxis, I think fundamentally you and I agree on the core issues so I will leave it at that. Thank you for taking the time to converse with me. I do appreciate it.

I watch all the networks including fox everyday as part of my job. I have watched glenn beck since he was on CNN Headline News before his switch to fox. i actually watched his "special" yesterday from 5-6 on the his topic of stalin and mao. Beck is an opportunist! Glenn Beck and others like him give the "illusion" of being non-partisan when they really are not. For every 10 blames for Democrats he gives one blame for Republicans. His attempt at non-partisanship for populists sake is a facade! His special lastnight was anything but historically authentic. Yes, he throws in a few authentic facts that some other pundits don't talk about in history and that is what hooks masses of people like you in, then he slowly puts his arm around you in a sincere type way and leads you to his way and only way of thinking and viciously attacks anyone who questions him as brainwashed and misguided.

Beck = SFMEDIC. The same loyal sheep blindly follow him because he sounds so sincere and honest and pours his heart into it because he cares so much, but question him once and you are banned and discredited!

For example, lastnight Beck used the argument that all aspects of socialism are wrong because people like Stalin and Mao killed over 100 million people based on socialist ideals and therefoe beware of Universal healthcare and Obama etc.... Now, all of the sheep watch that and think that is the ultimate argument. But if he was really honest and objective he would point out that Free Market Capitalism throughout history has killed 100s of millions not just 100 million. Free Market Capitalisticand Christian ideals justified Manifest Desitny and the slaughter of countless millions of native americans and millions upon millions of africans during the african slave trade. the industrial revolution made virtual slaves of many poor immigrants that were seen as disposable just as millions and millions of poor asian boys and girls are exploited and killed over exploitive capitalistic greed!

Beck's entire premise for his special was history taken out of context and one-sided. He even brought jewish "experts" to try to make Hitler out to be a Socialist which he wasnt.

Also, our own companies secretly did business with hitler all in the name of free market capitialism. IBM actually sold Hitler a primative counting machine computer to keep track of all of his evil doing. Coca Cola secretly created Fanta soda to sell in Nazi Germany. Wall St banks like JP Morgan and Chase etc did business with Stalin.

Greed is Greed! Corruption is Corruption!

As for the teaparty movement. I already said most of them are well-intentioned, but many of them are NOT as smart as they think they are including you if you can't take the time to research who created the movement, who is paying for all of the exposure, and sponsoring events, and controlling things at the top. But go ahead, join your local chapter, make a difference locally, but don't say I did not warn you when you realize you have been had!

As for Sara Palin, she offers absolutely no real-world solutions if you actually listen to her. all she says is glittering generalities and conservative talking points. She never once has offered any meaningful specific policy suggestions of her own. Every attempt at policy talk and she goes into talking points and policies that other republican politicians have come up with.

In 2008, you had the oldest white male republican in history running for office against a young intelligent african american democrat riding high on change that people wanted from the Bush years. The only chance McCain had was to try to find the youngest woman or minority he could find in the republican ranks to challenge that! He came up with Palin at the last minute and she was really attractive and talked down to earth and that is all she has got! Her gender and looks was the only strategic reason why she picked her, she flopped horribly on everything other than her lipstick speech. She realized that she was used like barbie doll she is and went "rogue" lol trying to salvage the spotlight. She is like one of those Reality Show contestants that does not want to let her 15 minutes of fame up and so she is trying to parlay her "all american girl with all american looks" and poistion heself the the teaparty bandwagon. The republican party does need her but only temporarily. When the time is right they will minimalize her.

The video thing can work for to keep an eye on the politicians on the compaign trail and on public matters, but that is not what i was referreing to. The bigwigs controlling, manipulating, and steering the movement behind the scenes above the average supportor and local organizers to frame arguments and push their hidden agenda is what i am talking about. Seriously, read up on past 3rd party and populist movements and you will see the same historical sabatoge. Don't say i did not warn you.

[pep007]

Praxis, something isnt right here. I enjoy talking with you. I keep seeing what seem to be some kind of racial leans to the way you relate White to Black. You seem to be upset more to White than to Black. Lets just keep it to the facts and not the race. I am not trying to lean one way or the other. Lets see what would happen if both races work together to solve the problems we face today. There are probably some people that may get offended about how you talk to them. I also would like to here how you believe that a 3 rd party could work? Like I said earlier, wouldnt it be a stalemate, if we elected a 3 rd party president, he would not have anybody from ether party to help his agenda. I know you say you are a teacher and you are probably in a union, but are they not also hurting the USA with the bail-out also. Give me more about how to change the way we govern.

[praxis]

I am a white male social studies teacher who lives and teaches in a very ethnic and racially diverse town where everybody gets along fine, so it's easy for me to identify racial/ethnic prejudice in people's words because of not just what they say but how they say it. i already addressed that in a long post in another thread on this site a couple of weeks ago. Quick example, Barack's middle name is meaningless, but when someone says "Barack HUSSEIN Obama" like many people type on this site are perfect examples of subtle ethnic/racial/religious prejudice.

Race does not really exist. It is a man-made labeled fantasy based on skin color. Why not eye color. Those **** blue eyed races or brown races or green races! It's all nonesense.

Moving on,

Unions: My father was a union rep at his steel mill for several years and did a good job. I only am a part of my teacher unions because they rape me for 80% of their dues anyways in what is called "fair share" I hate alot of unions because most unions today (especially teacher unions) do not function like their original intent. The unions are only about the high end people that work for the unions and not for the people they are supposed to represent. The NEA sucks! They promote bs education reform agendas that fail schools repeatedly. More standardized testing is not the answer, but they promote it along with politicians because some of these educational officials high up in the union also have a hand in the private companies and organizations the create and grade these tests. It is a money making agenda for them not for the teachers and students. Politicians go for it because they sell it as getting back to basics but they don't prove much.

My dad complained about working conditions etc and fought for better safety at his plant, but he also hated the fact he had to defend lazy workers who were screw ups and try to help save their jobs because they gave all workers a bad rep. same thing with the teacher unions defending all teachers blindly and that allows people to lump the good teachers in with the bad. etc..

all of these politicians want to blame teachers and the schools for kids not passing these standardized test, but everywhere i taught, the kids who would never pass were the one's who flat out didn't care about getting a formal education. THAT IS A PARENTING PROBLEM! Bush wanted to and now Obama wants to try and tie student test scores to teacher pay. if you do that, then teachers will be fighting over who gets to teacher all of the college prep and honors kids so they can get higher pay, and nobody will want to teacher the lower level kids. Nobody will want to teach in poorer performing schools because every teacher knows IT IS ALL ABOUT WHICH PARENTS INSTILL THE IMPORTANCE OF LEARNING AND THOSE WHO DO NOT! That is the biggest factor and teachers can not control that. Great teachers may be able to reach a few students to do that but not a whole school!

My solution: Any parent who receives any type of welfare benefit such as section 8 housing, food stamps, social security, free and reduced lunch should have stipulations and incentives tied to their kid's performance. If the child is before school age, then the parent must go to mandatory workshops on how to read to your kids, proper nutrition, role-playing etc to prepare them for pre-k/kindergarten. If they don't participate consistently then they lose their benefits. Once their kids start school, depending on how much welfare benefits they are receiving, they will have to participate at the school instead of sitting at home doing nothing, mandatory homework with their kids, and/or take adult education classes to help them get a GED if the parents neve graduated.

If we did that you would see a massive turnaround in poor schools throughout the US.

[praxis]

In today's society, you will probably not be able to have an effective 3rd party candidate that can successfully branch off of either of the two parties. I think there are only a few exceptions in all of congress that could do that and that would be people like Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, or anybody who was always listed as Independent, Libertarian, etc...Very few!

Like i was saying to Barbann, most of those 3rd party populist attempts will ultimately fail if they are even loosely tied to either of the two parties and that is why the teaparty group will ultimately fail. Once the lower level groups and individuals learn they have been hijacked and hoodwinked they will either be so frustrated they will fizzle out or they will get even more angry and finally create their own separate movement funded top to bottom independent from both parties. I hope this happens. I was hoping Ron Paul would do this, but he only allowed his movement to grow so far before falling in line with the Republicans after the nomination.

all of the democrat supporters of Obama who are realizing Obama can't do everything he said he would are getting ******. Unless there is some drastic turnaround Obama will be a one-term president. Then I feel the republicans will ride the teaparty movement and sneak in a candidate of their choice, and once that candidate (maybe Palin) fails the teaparty as well, then we might finally get a true independent bi-partisan 3rd party president by 2018 if our country is not completely in shambles by then...lol

That president would have to address the people and say we are going to make fundamental changes to restore this republic back to the constitutions original intent and any congressman or senator who votes against these fundamental changes must be thrown out at the next election. those fundamental changes would be things like the term limits i posted before etc...Then it is up to the american people to follow through with that promise.

alright, I have spent alot of time on here posting while i am trying to finish grading my students' midterm exams and putting them in my gradebook. I am falling behind so I will not be posting again for a while.

Nice having a good dialogue though. I want to hear other people's ideas for solutions to our problems!

[pep007]

I am sorry about what Obama is trying to do with the teachers and I am glad Bush failed. I also believe that not all parents do their part, in more way than one. These kids are the people that will be running this country, someday. I should be grateful that my 10yr. old little girl is a honor roll student, in the enrichment class. The school called our home last week to ask if we would let her stay an hour after school for tutoring. I was shocked but they said that she scored proficient last year on the MCT and wanted her to score excellent this year. I told them that she would be glad to go to the class. I guess they wanted her to give them a higher ranking this year because they ranked so low last year. You can never teach a kid to much, right. Enough of that, So, I guess you arent for the union but Obama seem to be all out for them. How about that 3rd party question?

[pep007]

Thanks for the answer.