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God is opinion and doesn't care if it's name is Capitalized... or does She?


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4 hours ago, new york kevin said:

Yup really !!! How lame a rino christian agnostic you are . You think because you throw out a thousand quotes of scripture , that that proves your faith and understanding in Christianity . Christianity being that which you admitted in this thread to not believing in.  Leaving out the deity of the Godhead aka Holy Trinity , and all that is in heaven there is one source that knows more about Christianity than all Bibal Scholars on earth will ever know ; that source is satan.  The jealous former heavenly angel of light . Of course since it, is a liar, you can , well ... others but you would be deceived if you believed any minor or major twist it suggests regarding Christianity. It is from the devils understanding , that it has birthed false Christian religions and doctrines over the last 2700 years. The very false doctrines, false teachings, false prophets , false miracles , the Holy Bible speaks of. There is hope for you still Pre, yes even up to the last second before you die to get to know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior , as it's written in the Bible . That is of not ok to wait till then, because what if you did instantly in a accident, never offering you the opportunity to turn your life over to Jesus ? To late, is to late . I wouldn't risk that . You can, but not me.

Rino?  I never said I voted in ANY election.  Please let me know where I have said I voted.  I will wait.  IF you cannot find it, then you made that up and should apologize no?  

 

I believe in Christianity....NOT Chirstendom.  There is a difference between the two.  Christianity is the teachings of Jesus in the Bible.  Christendom is a perscribed doctrine that men voted on.  

 

What religion are you?  Non denom like MArkinsa?  

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@PrehistoricMan

 

10 Biblical Reasons Jesus Is God

by Simon Turpin on August 8, 2017

Abstract

At a crucial point in his ministry, Jesus asked his disciples,“Who do you say that I am?” (Matthew 16:15). The answer to this question is more important than anything else. Nevertheless, today, just as in Jesus’ day, when Christians ask people the question “who do you say Jesus is?” there are various answers given concerning his identity. But what does the New Testament tell us about who Jesus is?

Introduction

Understanding the deity of Jesus is fundamental in defending the truth of the Christian faith.

 

All major religions1 and cultic groups2 reject the doctrine of deity of Christ. Some of these objections are a result of rationalism (“reason” is supreme, not God) over revelation or a misunderstanding of what the doctrine teaches. Another more common objection results from revisionist history, which claims that Christ’s deity was invented at the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century3 and not something believed by the early church.4

 

The reason Christians believe in the deity of Jesus is that we are forced to come to this conclusion by the clear teaching of Scripture. It is important to get Jesus’ identity because if we deny the deity of Jesus then we do not have the Father (1 John 2:23; cf. John 5:23). Here are 10 Scriptural reasons for the deity of Jesus.

1: The Bible Teaches That There Is One True God

Jesus’ divinity is part of the doctrine of the Trinity.

This is important to understand because many objectors to the deity of Jesus misunderstand what Christians believe about the Trinity. Christians believe what the Bible teaches—that there is only one true and living God (Deuteronomy 6:4; cf. 1 Corinthians 8:6). However, we must not confuse monotheism (belief in one God) with Unitarianism (the belief that the being of God is shared by one person). Jesus’ divinity is part of the doctrine of the Trinity, which states that within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each is a distinct person, yet each is identified as God: the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6), the Son (John 1:1–3; Romans 9:5), and the Spirit (Acts 5:3–4). We must also remember that it wasn’t the Father or the Spirit who became incarnate; it was the Son (John 1:14) and he was born under the Law (Galatians 4:4).

 

This is why, in his humanity, Jesus prays to the Father (Matthew 26:39, 42).5

The doctrine of the Trinity is revealed between the Old and New Testaments through the incarnation of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.6 God did not change between the Old and New Testaments, being a Unitarian God in the Old and a Trinitarian God in the New. God has always been Triune, but the specific revelation of the divinity of Jesus takes place in the New Testament.7

2: The Bible Teaches That Jesus Pre-Existed Before The World Was

The New Testament in several passages clearly teaches that Jesus existed in eternity past before his birth in Bethlehem.

 

Genesis 1:1 tells us, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” In John 1:1 we read the same words, “In the beginning.”8 John informs us in John 1:1 that in the beginning was the Word (logos) and that the Word was not only with God but was God. This Word is the one who brought all things into being at creation (John 1:3). John 1:1 teaches that the Word is eternal, the Word has had an eternal relationship with the Father, and the Word as to His nature is deity.

 

In his prayer in John 17:3–5 Jesus both refers to his pre-existence and uses terminology that can only be used about deity:

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

To have eternal life is to know two persons: both the Father and Jesus (see John 14:6-7; 16:3). But notice, Jesus is distinguished from the Father because Jesus is the one speaking to the Father. The personal pronouns (me, your, you) clearly show that this is one person speaking to another. In this conversation, the Son is speaking of the glory he has shared with the Father before the world was; the words “in your own presence” refer to their sharing of divine glory.9 John 17:3–5 is not an example of the “human side” praying to the “divine side” but of a divine, yet incarnate (John 1:14) person, the Son, communicating with a divine, but non-incarnate person, the Father in heaven.

 

Paul’s words in Philippians 2:5–8 teach not only the deity of Jesus but also the distinct personhood of the Son prior to his incarnation.10 In this passage, Paul exhorts the Philippians to have the same attitude as Christ Jesus who “existed in the form of God.”11 These words come before the verbs emptiedtaking, and becoming and point to the pre-existence of the one “existing in the form of God.”12 Moreover, Jesus did not regard13 the equality he had with God the Father, in eternity past, something to be held on to. Instead he “made himself nothing”14 by doing two things: taking the form of a bond-servant and being made in the likeness of men.15 Having entered into human existence he humbled himself to death on the Cross. Because of this, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10–11); it is only God who is to be worshipped as Lord (see Isaiah 45:23).

3: Jesus Is Creator Not Creature

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Paul’s statement in Colossians 1:15 that the “firstborn of all creation” teaches that Jesus was a created being. However, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ teaching resembles the view of the ancient Colossian heresy that Paul had to combat.

 

The Colossian false teachers advocated the idea that Jesus was the first of many other created mediators between God and men. By using the specific Greek word prōtotokos, “firstborn,” Paul rules out the idea of Jesus as a created being. “Firstborn” does not mean “first created.” Rather, Paul uses a term that was based on the ancient designation of the authority, or pre-eminence, metaphorically given to the firstborn (Genesis. 49:3–4; Exodus 4:22). In the same way, David, the youngest of Jesse, was named “firstborn” (Psalm 89:20–27) who ruled Israel.

 

Manasseh was born to Joseph first, but Ephraim, his younger brother, was “firstborn” due to his position as given by Jacob/Israel (Genesis 48:13–20, Jeremiah 31:9).

By describing Jesus as the “firstborn over all creation,” Paul is saying that he is the absolute ruler over all creation.

Furthermore, if Paul had wanted to describe Jesus as a created being, he could have used the Greek word protoktistos, which means “first created.”16 So why didn’t he use it? Because Paul did not believe Jesus was created. By describing Jesus as the “firstborn over all creation,” Paul is saying that he is the absolute ruler over all creation.

 

In fact, the evidence that Jesus is supreme over all creation comes in Colossians 1:16. Here, Paul absolutely rules out the idea that Jesus is a created being because he presents Jesus as the Creator of the entire universe which exists by his creative power (John 1:1–3; Hebrews 1:2, 8–10). The reason Jesus can “create all things” is that “in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9). The Greek word for “Godhead,” theotēs, refers to “the state of being God.”17 It is only God who can create (Isaiah 42:5, 44:24, 45:18).

4: Jesus Identifies Himself as Divine

At the Feast of Tabernacles/Booths in his encounter with the Pharisees (John 8:13), Jesus told them, “I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins” (John 8:24). The Jewish people reacted to Jesus’ statement by asking him, “Who are you?” (John 8:25).

 

Jesus told the Jews exactly who he is: “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). This “I am” (ego eimi) statement was Jesus’ clearest example of His proclamation, “I am Yahweh,” from its background in the book of Isaiah (Isaiah 41:4; 43:10–13, 25; 46:4; 48:12; cf. John 13:19).

 

These are the very words (ego eimi) ) that caused the Roman soldiers to fall to the ground after they came to arrest Jesus (John 18:6). Jesus’ explicit identification of himself with Yahweh of the Old Testament is why the Jewish leaders wanted to stone him for blasphemy (see John 5:18; 10:33).

5: The Apostles Identified Jesus as Divine

Both Jesus and his apostles identified him as divine. The Apostle Peter described Jesus as “our God and Savior” (2 Peter 1:1; cf. Titus 2:13) and called on believers to “honor Christ the Lord as holy” (1 Peter 3:15).18 Jesus’ own half-brother James, who was an unbeliever at first (John 7:5), described him as “the Lord of glory” (James 2:1; cf. 1 Corinthians 2:8; Psalm 24:7–8). What man or prophet could be described in this way? The Apostle John also attributed titles to Jesus that were used only of God by describing him as the “Alpha and Omega” and the “first and the last” (Revelation 22:13; 1:8, 17–18; cf. Isaiah 44:6). The writer of the book of Hebrews also has insight into the identity of Jesus In Hebrews 1, the author identifies Jesus (the Son) as superior to any prophet (vv. 1–2), above the angels (v. 5), worthy of our worship (vv. 6–8; cf. Psalm 45:6–7), and the creator of all things who is unchangeable (vv. 2–310; cf. Psalm 102:25). The author of Hebrews further states that Jesus is “seated at the right hand of the throne of God” (Hebrews 12:2; cf. Acts 2:30).

6: The Jewish Leaders Recognized Jesus’ Claim to Divinity

One of the clearest evidences of the deity of Jesus is the Jewish leaders’ reaction to Jesus’ words and actions. In Mark 2, Jesus not only heals a paralytic but also forgives his sins (Mark 2:5). This is the reason that the scribes cry blasphemy, for it is God alone who can forgive sins (Mark 2:7).19

 

In his trial before the Sanhedrin Jesus is once again charged with blasphemy because of his response to the high priest’s question: “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” (Mark 14:61) Jesus responded, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:62). Then the high priest tore his clothes, charged Jesus with blasphemy, and condemned him to death (Mark 14:64). Why did the high priest respond that way? Because Jesus quoted from Psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13–14 and applied the words to himself. In Daniel 7 the divine Son of Man comes before the Ancient of Days, and all peoples and nations serve20 him. The Pharisees recognize Jesus’ divine claim here and charge him with blasphemy, intending to put him to death.

7: The Early Church in the New Testament Prayed to Jesus

Prayer is something that should be addressed to God alone, but Jesus calls his disciples to pray to him (John 14:13–14; 16:26). In the book of Acts when Stephen is being stoned to death, he calls out to the Lord Jesus to receive his sprit (Acts 7:59). Interestingly, the term for “calling on” (epikaloumenon) recalls the appeal of Peter to the people in Acts 2:21 to “call on” (epikaleshtai) the Lord to be saved. Paul also describes the Corinthians as those who “call upon [epikaleo] the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:2). In the Old Testament, people “called on” on the name of Yahweh (Joel 2:32). The Corinthians were people who addressed Jesus as Lord in prayer.

8: The Early Church in the New Testament Worshipped Jesus

Jesus accepted worship from people (Matthew 2:2, 14:33, 28:9). One of the greatest examples of this comes from the lips of Thomas when he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). If Jesus was not divine, then Thomas made a serious error; but Jesus made no effort to correct Thomas in his worship. Yet Peter (Acts 10:25–26), Paul (Acts 14:14–15), and the angel in Revelation (Revelation 22:8,9) all corrected others for trying to worship them. The confession of deity here is unmistakable, clearly demonstrating that worship belongs only to God (Revelation 22:9) because Jesus accepted Thomas’s worship of him (John 20:29).

 

What’s more, in the book of Revelation, the elders and every creature in heaven and upon earth ascribe universal worship to “him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb” (Revelation 5:11–14; cf. John 1:29).

9: Jesus Made Claims That No Human Being Could Ever Make

Jesus not only identified as God, but he also indicated his deity through his words and actions. Jesus said that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven we must call him Lord (kurios, Romans 10:9; cf. Matthew 7:21). Just saying that Jesus is Lord does not get you into the Kingdom, but to enter the Kingdom you must confess Him as Lord.21 The entrance into God’s Kingdom, according to Jesus, is dependent upon a person’s knowledge of him and his reciprocal knowledge of the person (Matthew 7:23).

 

Jesus even promised rest to all those who come to Him (Matthew 11:28). Could Moses have ever made a claim like this? No! How could a human being give anyone rest from the Law?22 Jesus also claimed, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me” (Matthew 28:18). God never gave any man or prophet all authority in heaven and on earth, but this same authority was given to the Son of Man in Daniel 7:13–14 (see also Matthew 26:64).

10: Jesus Is the Son of God

It is often pointed out that the words “Son of God” are not an exclusive title for Jesus. For example, in the Old Testament Israel was called God’s son (Exodus 4:22–23; Hosea 11:1), the king was called God’s son (Psalm 2:7), and the angels were called God’s sons (Job 38:7). Even in the New Testament, Adam and believers are referred to as son/s of God (Luke 3:38; Romans 8:14).

 

There is, however, a difference between an adopted son and a relational Son of God, the latter being a deity by nature. More than anyone else who has walked this earth, Jesus the Messiah is uniquely entitled to be called the Son of God (John 1:49, 11:27) – “the unique One, who is himself God” (monogenēs theos – see John 1:18 NLT).23

Whatever Jesus said about himself must have been sufficiently provocative enough for the Jewish leaders to call for capital punishment on that charge of blasphemy.

In Jesus’ trial before Pilate, the Jewish leaders clearly understood that Jesus’ use of this term was not just generic, for they wanted him put to death: “We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God” (John 19:7; cf. John 10:36). According to the Law, it was blasphemy to use God’s name (Leviticus 24:16). Therefore, by referring to himself as the Son of God, Jesus was claiming to share “the rights and authority of God himself (cf. [John] 1:345:19–30).”24 People who say that Jesus never claimed to be God must answer why he was crucified on the charge of blasphemy. Whatever Jesus said about himself must have been sufficiently provocative enough for the Jewish leaders to call for capital punishment on that charge of blasphemy.

 

The significance of this is that failure to believe in Jesus as the Son of God brings judgement because we are already dead in our sins (see John 3:18, Ephesians 2:1), but believing in Jesus as the Son of God brings eternal life (see John 3:15–17, 6:40, 20:31).

Conclusion

Although there may be many objections to Jesus’ deity, the New Testament clearly provides eye-witness testimony to the words, actions, and teachings of Jesus that prove his deity. A false Jesus cannot save you. If we do not get the identity of Jesus right, we will die in our sin (John 8:24).

 

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On 9/1/2021 at 2:22 PM, PrehistoricMan said:

Thank you for your post.  Except the Bible never says Jesus is God incarnate.  Find me that exact phrase in the Bible.  Yes all things were created by God and his Son Jesus in heaven.  BUT Jesus did have a beginning.  He was not always existed.  Revelation 3:14 English Standard Version
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.   So if Jesus is the BEGINNING of God´s creation, then he cannot actually BE God.  Again the word trinity doesnt appear in the Bible.  So why should one believe it?  I believe in the entire word of the Bible.  

 

If you have truly read all of the exchanges on this page.  All 8 pages and you still come to this conclusion, there is nothing more I can say.  To say you believe everything the others have said and none of the scriptures I have posted....baffles me.  Just a simple one.  Explain Exodus 3:14  NO MAN may see God and live.  Yet thousands saw Jesus.  Do you understand that verse?  Jesus himself even repeats it at John 1:18.  NO MAN has ever seen God.

I find this conversation incredibly interesting!  The main reason being is that a different viewpoint on a Biblical matter is a catalyst, for those who really care, to dive further into the Word and come out with either: 1) A deeper understanding of what they believe, 2) A modified belief based on new evidence, or 3) An entirely new belief.

 

I believe that it's very possible to believe the right thing, but for the wrong reasons and vice versa.  This conversation has given me the direction for my next course of study.  While you have not changed my belief, you have certainly given me cause to dig deep into the Word, possibly using more versions of it, to gain a better understanding of why I believe what I believe!  I will endeavor to relate what I find when I am done, or when I feel it's time.  Should I have questions for you in the mean time, I'll come back to this thread.  In the mean time, let's call it an agree-to-disagree topic.  It may stay that way, or it may not.  Only He knows!

 

Have a great weekend! 

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Defend Jehovah's Witnesses: Questions For Those Who Believe in the Trinity (defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com)

If Jesus is Almighty God...
 
1. Then why is "God head of Christ just as Christ is head of man"? (1 Cor. 11:3)
 
2. Then why does Scripture consistently phrase Jesus as a separate person from God? (John 20:17; John 14:1; Mark 10:18; John 17:1-3; etc. Also in heaven, 1 Cor. 11:3; Luke 22:69; etc.)


3. Then how can Jesus have a God? Could Almighty God have a God? (Mic. 5:4; Ps. 45:6, 7; 89:26; John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph 1:3; Col 1:3; Mark 15:34; John 17:1-3; Also in heaven, Rev. 1:6; 3:2, 12)

4. Then why does Scripture say he was born and is part of Creation? (Col. 1:15)
 

5. Then why does Rev. 3:14 say that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God"?
 
6. Then why is he subject to GOD, like we're subject to him? (1 Cor. 15:27, 28; Eph. 1:17)
 
7. Then why does Micah 5:2 say that Jesus' ORIGIN was “from early times”?
 
8. Then why does Jesus not know what God knows? (Matt. 24:36, Rev.1:1; Luke 8:45)
 
9. Then why is Jesus still subject to God when he is as high as he will ever be? (1 Cor. 15:27, 28)
 

10. Then why does Proverbs 8:22-31 show that the Messiah was CREATED / PRODUCED by God?

11. Then why is he not powerful enough to subject things to himself? (1 Cor. 15:27, Eph. 1:17, 22)

12. Then why would he have to be given any power and authority? (Mt. 28:18; 11:27; Jn. 5:22; 17:2; 3:35; 2 Pet. 1:17)

13. Then why did he have to learn anything? (Heb. 5:8; John 5:19; 8:28)

14. Then why is speaking against him not as bad as speaking against the Holy Spirit? (Mt. 12:31,32; Luke 12:10)

15. Then why did Jesus call the "Father...the only true God"? (John 17:3)


16. Then why did he need to be saved? (Heb. 5:7; John 12:27)
 

17. Then why did he have to be exalted to Leader and Savior? (Acts 5:31)

 
18. Then how could he be exalted and given a higher name than he had? (Phil. 2:9-11; Heb. 1:2-4)

 

19. Then why did he have to be given life in himself? (John 5:25,26)

 

20. Then how can the Father be greater than he? (John 14:28)

 

21. Then how could Jesus be tempted by Satan when God cannot be tempted with evil? (James 1:13)


22. Then why did he worship the Father? (John 4:22)

23. Then why can he not do anything on his own? (John 5:19; 6:38)

24. Then why would he pray to anybody? (Luke 22:44; John 17:1,2; Heb. 5:7)

25. Then why do John 1:18 and 1 John 4:9 say that Jesus is God's "only BEGOTTEN Son"? ASV

26. Then how can he be God's servant? (Acts 4:26,27,30)

27. Then how could he receive strength from an angel? (Luke 22:43)


28. Then how could he be a mediator between God and man? (1 Tim. 2:5)
 
29. Then how could he be with God (ton theon)? (John 1:1)
 
30. Then how can he be God's image? (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)
 
31. Then why is he called the agency (dia) of creation and not the Originator (ek)? (1 Cor. 8:6; John 1:1-3; Prov. 8:30; Heb. 2:10; Col. 1:15,16)


32. Then why did Jesus say GOD was "good" in a way that Jesus was not? (Mark 10:18)

33. Then why does he have an archangel's voice instead of God's voice? (1 Thess. 4:16)

34. Then why is the only "worship" given to him the same given to humans? (Heb. 1:6, cf. Mt. 18:26; Rev. 3:9 - "Proskuneo")

35. Then why do many who believe this rely on a few selected, so-called 'proof-texts' instead of the context of the consistent teaching of the entire Bible?

36. Then how could he be commanded to do anything? (John 12:49; Deut. 18:18)

37. Then why did Steven see two separate entities, GOD and Jesus, and not just one God or three persons? (Acts 7:55)

38. Then how could he be seen at GOD's right hand? (Luke 22:69; Acts 7:55; Rom. 8:34)

39. Then how could Jesus be exalted (not to become God Himself, but) to the position of the "right hand OF God"? (Acts 2:33)

40. Then why would he have to receive a revelation from God? (Rev.1:1)

41. Then why is he called God's "begotten" Son before he came to earth? (John 3:16; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:9)

42. Then how could he have a Father? (John 20:17)

 
43. Then how could he come in flesh? (1 Kings 8:27; Acts 17:24,25)
 
44. Then why did he not come in his own name? (John 5:41-44)
 
45. Then why did Jesus "come down from heaven to do" God's will and not his own will? (Luke 22:42; John 6:38; John 5:30; John 8:42)
 
46. Then how could he appear before GOD? (Heb. 9:24)

 

47. Then how could he die? Can God die? Can part of God die? (Rom. 5:10; Acts 5:30; 1 Cor. 15:3; Hab.1:12; cf. 1 Tim. 6:16; Num. 23:19; Ps. 90:2; Dan. 6:25-26)
 
48. Then why is it that God resurrected Jesus? (Acts 2:32)


49. Then why can we see him if "no man has seen God at any time"? (John 1:18)

50. Then why is there not one clear Scripture where Jesus is called "God the Son," (equal to those declaring "God, the Father)?

51. How is it that the Jews rounded up some false witnesses to make up lies to obtain a death sentence for Jesus, but neither the Jewish officials nor even one of these false witnesses made a claim that he was God or equally God? (Matt. 26:59-67)
 

52. John summed up his whole Gospel by saying that it was written that we may believe "that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." Why is there is no mention in that summary of the entire Gospel of what would be the most important thing of all - that Jesus is God? (John 20:31)
 
53. How could Jesus teach in the Jewish synagogues and the temple? This would never happen if any of the authorities believed he claimed to be God (or that his followers believed such a thing). - Matt. 26:55; John 7:14, 28. Matt. 4:23.


54. How could Jesus' followers teach in Jewish synagogues after Jesus' death and for the remainder of that first century (at least)? Again, this would not have been allowed if there were any suspicion that they believed Jesus to be God. Acts 9:20; 13:5, Acts 13:13-15.

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57 minutes ago, PrehistoricMan said:
 
1. Then why is "God head of Christ just as Christ is head of man"? (1 Cor. 11:3)

 

[Col 2:9-10 NASB20] 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over every ruler and authority;

 

1 hour ago, PrehistoricMan said:

2. Then why does Scripture consistently phrase Jesus as a separate person from God? (John 20:17; John 14:1; Mark 10:18; John 17:1-3; etc. Also in heaven, 1 Cor. 11:3; Luke 22:69; etc.)

 

[Jhn 10:30 NASB20] 30 "I and the Father are one."

 

[Jhn 14:9-11 NASB20] 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time, and [yet] you have not come to know Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father; how [can] you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own, but the Father, as He remains in Me, does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

 

[Phl 2:6-7 NASB20] 6 who, as He [already] existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself [by] taking the form of a bond-servant [and] being born in the likeness of men.

 

1 hour ago, PrehistoricMan said:

3. Then how can Jesus have a God? Could Almighty God have a God? (Mic. 5:4; Ps. 45:6, 7; 89:26; John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph 1:3; Col 1:3; Mark 15:34; John 17:1-3; Also in heaven, Rev. 1:6; 3:2, 12)

 

[Phl 2:6-7 NASB20] 6 who, as He [already] existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself [by] taking the form of a bond-servant [and] being born in the likeness of men.

 

1 hour ago, PrehistoricMan said:

4. Then why does Scripture say he was born and is part of Creation? (Col. 1:15)

 

[Col 1:16-17 NASB20] 16 for by Him all things were created, [both] in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

 

1 hour ago, PrehistoricMan said:

5. Then why does Rev. 3:14 say that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God"?

 

[Rev 22:13 NASB20] 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

 

1 hour ago, PrehistoricMan said:

6. Then why is he subject to GOD, like we're subject to him? (1 Cor. 15:27, 28; Eph. 1:17)

 

He was in flesh.

 

[Phl 2:7 NASB20] 7 but emptied Himself [by] taking the form of a bond-servant [and] being born in the likeness of men.

 

2 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

7. Then why does Micah 5:2 say that Jesus' ORIGIN was “from early times”?

 

[Jhn 1:1 NASB20] 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

2 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

8. Then why does Jesus not know what God knows? (Matt. 24:36, Rev.1:1; Luke 8:45)

 

Before the Crucifixtion:

 

[Phl 2:7 NASB20] 7 but emptied Himself [by] taking the form of a bond-servant [and] being born in the likeness of men.

 

After the resurrection:

 

[Jhn 21:17 NASB20] 17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, [son] of John, do you love Me?" Peter was hurt because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep.

 

2 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

9. Then why is Jesus still subject to God when he is as high as he will ever be? (1 Cor. 15:27, 28)

 

[*** 2:11-14 NASB20] 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and in a godly manner in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, eager for good deeds.

 

[1Ti 3:16 NASB20] 16 Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

 

2 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

10. Then why does Proverbs 8:22-31 show that the Messiah was CREATED / PRODUCED by God?

 

Read that scripture and note the scripture is talking about 'wisdom'....wisdom personified....The Hebrew word that commonly means "create" (bara') is not used in verse 22; rather the word is qanah, which occurs eighty-four times in the Old Testament and almost always means "to get, acquire."

 

[Heb 1:10 NASB20] 10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

 

[Isa 48:12-13 NASB20] 12 "Listen to Me, Jacob, Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 "Assuredly My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together.

 

Ten Down 44 to go. :lol:

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

11. Then why is he not powerful enough to subject things to himself? (1 Cor. 15:27, Eph. 1:17, 22)

 

Where does it say He is not powerful enough?  

 

[Rom 14:11 NASB20] 11 For it is written: "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, TO ME EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, AND EVERY TONGUE WILL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

 

16 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

12. Then why would he have to be given any power and authority? (Mt. 28:18; 11:27; Jn. 5:22; 17:2; 3:35; 2 Pet. 1:17)

 

Its an appearance thing.  

 

16 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

13. Then why did he have to learn anything? (Heb. 5:8; John 5:19; 8:28)

 

Jesus was fully man and fully God


[Phl 2:7 NASB20] 7 but emptied Himself [by] taking the form of a bond-servant [and] being born in the likeness of men.

 

16 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

14. Then why is speaking against him not as bad as speaking against the Holy Spirit? (Mt. 12:31,32; Luke 12:10)

 

Without the Spirit you are damned.

 

[Eph 4:30 NASB20] 30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

17 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

15. Then why did Jesus call the "Father...the only true God"? (John 17:3)

 

He should know He is God.

 

[Isa 9:6 NASB20] 6 For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

 

17 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

16. Then why did he need to be saved? (Heb. 5:7; John 12:27)

 

To be saved from what was to come, Scourging, Death on the cross, separation from God.

 

17 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

17. Then why did he have to be exalted to Leader and Savior? (Acts 5:31)

 

[Eph 1:9-12 NASB20] 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding [His] plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

 

17 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

18. Then how could he be exalted and given a higher name than he had? (Phil. 2:9-11; Heb. 1:2-4)

 

See #17

 

17 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

19. Then why did he have to be given life in himself? (John 5:25,26)

 

See #17

 

17 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

20. Then how can the Father be greater than he? (John 14:28)

 

[Phl 2:7 NASB20] 7 but emptied Himself [by] taking the form of a bond-servant [and] being born in the likeness of men.

 

Twenty down, 34 to go. :twothumbs:

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Search For Bible Truths: If the Holy Spirit is God, then why isn't the Holy Spirit given equal description in the Bible?

If the Holy Spirit is God, then why isn't the Holy Spirit given equal description in the Bible?

Jesus said in John 17:3 that it means everlasting life to know God (the Father) and also Jesus. So if the Holy Spirit really is God, then why isn't the Holy Spirit mentioned here as well? Further, why isn't the Holy Spirit mentioned in a whole host of other relative references in the Bible?

A good example:

If the Holy Spirit has always been God, and it means everlasting life to know God, then why would Jews instructed in the Old Testament scriptures and in the teachings of John the Baptist, not even know what the Holy Spirit was? (Acts 19:2)

If the Holy Spirit is God, then why is the Holy Spirit so vaguely described in the Bible? We know the Father's personal name ("Jehovah", Ps. 83:18; KJV) and we know the Son's personal name (Jesus). If it means everlasting life to know God, and if the Holy Spirit is God, then why doesn't the Holy Spirit have a personal name?

If the Holy Spirit is God, why does the Bible neglect to ever mention the words, "God, the Holy Spirit," or "The Holy Spirit is God"?

If the Holy Spirit is God, why does the Bible never mention a vision, dream or clear description wherein God and the Holy Spirit are shown as the same person?

The reason is because the Holy Spirit is not God and is God's active force:

"In the OT the Holy Spirit means a divine power..." -The Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 269, 1976

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On 9/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, PrehistoricMan said:

21. Then how could Jesus be tempted by Satan when God cannot be tempted with evil? (James 1:13)

 

See #20

 

Important note here, if Jesus could not be tempted then He would not be man, therefore God had to empty himself to become the perfect sacrifice for our sins.

 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, PrehistoricMan said:

22. Then why did he worship the Father? (John 4:22)

 

To be an example for us.

 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, PrehistoricMan said:

23. Then why can he not do anything on his own? (John 5:19; 6:38)

 

He was still in the Flesh and had not been resurrected.

 

[Jhn 15:5 NASB20] 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, PrehistoricMan said:

24. Then why would he pray to anybody? (Luke 22:44; John 17:1,2; Heb. 5:7)

 

See #22 and #23

 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, PrehistoricMan said:

25. Then why do John 1:18 and 1 John 4:9 say that Jesus is God's "only BEGOTTEN Son"? ASV

 

answered in the below post.

 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, PrehistoricMan said:

26. Then how can he be God's servant? (Acts 4:26,27,30)

 

[Phl 2:6 NASB20] 6 who, as He [already] existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, PrehistoricMan said:

27. Then how could he receive strength from an angel? (Luke 22:43)

 

He was still in human form.

 

[Phl 2:7 NASB20] 7 but emptied Himself [by] taking the form of a bond-servant [and] being born in the likeness of men.

 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, PrehistoricMan said:

28. Then how could he be a mediator between God and man? (1 Tim. 2:5)

 

If He is not your mediator, your faith has brought you nothing. :facepalm: 

 

[Heb 12:24-29 NASB20] 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than [the blood] of Abel. 25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned [them] on earth, much less [will] we [escape] who turn away from Him who [warns us] from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN." 27 This [expression,] "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let's show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, PrehistoricMan said:

29. Then how could he be with God (ton theon)? (John 1:1)

 

[Jhn 10:38 NASB20] 38 but if I do [them,] even though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."


[Jhn 14:10-11 NASB20] 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own, but the Father, as He remains in Me, does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, PrehistoricMan said:

30. Then how can he be God's image? (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)

 

The original question was, "If Jesus is Almighty God, then how can he be God's Image?"  :facepalm:

 

See #29

 

Thirty down, 24 to go. :twothumbs:

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1 hour ago, PrehistoricMan said:

If the Holy Spirit is God, then why isn't the Holy Spirit given equal description in the Bible?

 

[Job 33:4-17 NASB20] 4 "The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life. 5 "Refute me if you can; Line up against me, take your stand. 6 "Behold, I belong to God, like you; I too have been formed out of the clay. 7 "Behold, no fear of me should terrify you, Nor should my pressure weigh heavily on you. 8 "You have in fact spoken while I listened, And I heard the sound of [your] words: 9 'I am pure, without wrongdoing; I am innocent and there is no guilt in me. 10 'Behold, He invents criticisms against me; He counts me as His enemy. 11 'He puts my feet in the stocks; He watches all my paths.' 12 "Behold, let me respond to you, you are not right in this, For God is greater than mankind. 13 "Why do you complain to Him That He does not give an account of all His doings? 14 "Indeed God speaks once, Or twice, [yet] no one notices it. 15 "In a dream, a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls on people, While they slumber in their beds, 16 Then He opens the ears of people, And horrifies them with warnings, 17 So that He may turn a person away [from bad] conduct, And keep a man from pride;

 

[Phl 2:6 NASB20] 6 who, as He [already] existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

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This is exactly the debate I am having with Markinsa.  I point out facts from the bible, and he is playing the part of this leftist with alternative facts.  He even compared what I had posted to Joe Biden.  None of the points he has raised has defeated anything I have posted.  His entire argument are whataboutisms and stuff not even in the Bible.  

 

So markinsa, your mind is made up.  You are unwilling to reason with facts and logic.  I get that.  Perhaps now you could turn the debate over to someone else?  We all know where you stand.  It is pointless for me to continue posting to you because of how you are.  

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Search For Bible Truths: If God and Jesus really are equal, then why does the Bible phrase them as "Father" and "Son"?

If God and Jesus really are equal, then why does the Bible phrase them as "Father" and "Son"?

 
When thinking about ANY father and his son, is it commonly regarded as them being co-equal and the same person? Of course not.

So if God and Jesus both always existed and are co-equal, then why would the Bible confusingly speak of God and Jesus in terms of a relationship between a father and his son?

If God and Jesus really are equal, then it would make no sense for the Bible to phrase them as "Father" and "Son".

The word "son" principally is regarded in the Bible as "offspring" and in Genesis we read that Adam was produced by God. Interestingly, Adam and Jesus even shared the same description: "son of God". (Luke 3:38)

While the Father is always found in the Bible to be called "God", the phrase "God the Son" is never found. Further, if the Son really was God, then why would he call the Father "the only true God"? (John 17:1-3)

Jesus is God's "only-begotten" son...the only being directly created by God. (John 1:18) Therefore the designations "Father" and "Son" make sense and are appropriate.
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6 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

So markinsa, your mind is made up.  You are unwilling to reason with facts and logic.  I get that.  Perhaps now you could turn the debate over to someone else?  We all know where you stand.  It is pointless for me to continue posting to you because of how you are.  

 

Debate?  I have been giving you answers to your questions backed up with Scripture and yet you have failed to counter anything I have posted.  When I ask you questions you ignore them.  How is that a debate?  Especially when all your so called facts and talking points are from the JW Witnesses/Cult website. 

 

I can't even get you to answer one simple question.

 

Who or what do you think Jesus is, if not God? 

 

But I think I know what the issue is,  you have been taught this garbage since you were a child, you have been indoctrinated, there is no changing your mind, and THAT is how you grieve the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pro 22:6 NASB20] 6 Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he grows older he will not abandon it.

 

[Rom 1:19-22 NASB20] 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes, that is,] His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

.

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6 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

If God and Jesus really are equal, then why does the Bible phrase them as "Father" and "Son"?

 

[Mat 28:16-18 NASB20] 16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated to them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped [Him;] but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

 

I would say that scripture above makes them equal.

 

 

 

[2Co 6:16 NASB20] 16 Or what agreement does the temple of God have with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL AMONG THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

 

How does an Invisible God dwell and walk among us?  Answer:  Jesus

.

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1 hour ago, Markinsa said:

[Rom 1:19-22 NASB20] 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes, that is,] His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,.

 

1 hour ago, Markinsa said:

@PrehistoricMan I know I am pushing it, but two more questions.

 

Have you ever been Baptized and received the Holy Spirit?  Is the Holy Spirit living within you?

 

45 minutes ago, Markinsa said:

Mat 28:18Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

2Co 6:16 Or what agreement does the temple of God have with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL AMONG THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.  How does an Invisible God dwell and walk among us?  Answer:  Jesus.

 

I appreciate you Mark .... Be blessed Brother .... Ron 

 

(1 Cor 2:12-16 NIV) 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.  14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord  so as to instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 

 

Unfortunately  PrehistoricMan is in this category, and at this point chooses to remain there..!  He has to choose to seek the Lord with all his heart and be open to Him.

(Jeremiah 29:13  NIV)  "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

 

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1 minute ago, ronscarpa said:

Unfortunately  PrehistoricMan is in this category, and at this point chooses to remain there..!  He has to choose to seek the Lord with all his heart and be open to Him.

(Jeremiah 29:13  NIV)  "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

 

I agree.

 

Thank you Lord for blessing us with Your Spirit so we can see and discern these things.  I ask that you reveal Yourself to @PrehistoricMan
so that he may see as well.

 

In Jesus Name I pray. Amen

 

.

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On 9/5/2021 at 8:53 AM, Markinsa said:

 

[Mat 28:16-18 NASB20] 16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated to them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped [Him;] but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

 

I would say that scripture above makes them equal.

 

 

 

[2Co 6:16 NASB20] 16 Or what agreement does the temple of God have with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL AMONG THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

 

How does an Invisible God dwell and walk among us?  Answer:  Jesus

.

If Authority has to be GIVEN to Jesus, then he isnt God!  Wouldnt God have all the authority already?  But here Jesus is being GIVEN authority.  You guys are pretty blind.

 

Sigh....You are saying invisible God cannot be among mankind, then say Jesus is visible.  You contradict yourself there.

 

Ronscarpa,  I see just fine.  Instead of debating me yourself you rely on markinsa to do it for you.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, PrehistoricMan said:

If Authority has to be GIVEN to Jesus, then he isnt God!

 

:lol: Ok. :facepalm:

 

Here's a link.

 

If Jesus was God, what does it mean that He was “given” authority and the name above all names?

 

54 minutes ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Sigh....You are saying invisible God cannot be among mankind, then say Jesus is visible.  You contradict yourself there.

 

:lol: No, I didn't! AND, IF, IF, I did.  You explain the below verse:

 

[2Co 6:16 NASB20] 16 Or what agreement does the temple of God have with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL AMONG THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

 

How does God achieve that?

 

.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Markinsa said:

 

:lol: Ok. :facepalm:

 

Here's a link.

 

If Jesus was God, what does it mean that He was “given” authority and the name above all names?

 

 

:lol: No, I didn't! AND, IF, IF, I did.  You explain the below verse:

 

[2Co 6:16 NASB20] 16 Or what agreement does the temple of God have with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL AMONG THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

 

How does God achieve that?

 

.

 

 

Um, because 2 corinthians 6;16 ISNT literal?  So what you are saying is God CANNOT be with us today because he isnt physically walking among us?  Ugh...

Anyone more than Genesis 11:1 is frickin literal.  -Now the whole earth had one language and the same words.-

 

I suppose you think the LITERAL Earth speaks eh?  or...gasp...could it POSSIBLY be talking about the PEOPLE on the earth had one language?

 

Try to think outside the box.  God is not literally walking on the earth.  

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