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God is opinion and doesn't care if it's name is Capitalized... or does She?


rvmydinar
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2 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

The idiot giving me the rubies is not in the debate.

 

Please watch the name calling and try not to be so thin skinned.  It is just a little red down arrow.

 

2 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

You have your followers giving them to me. 

 

I'd lay odds they are Jesus Freaks. :twothumbs: They're not following me. They are following Him.

 

2 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

I have no help here so why shouldnt I vote myself up?

 

I understand, it must be lonely when you have an opinion on something that no one around you agrees with.

 

2 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

1. Why would God give a created being the responsibility to bear Man's sins and punishment for those sins? 

Why not?  Um, why did God give angels the responsibility to be messengers?  Why does God give MAN the responsibility to spread the good news?  Again, I see YOU putting limits on God.

 

Because then someone else would get the Glory for our salvation.  You see the distraction and confusion that would arise if Jesus is really an Archangel, and everyone bows down to Worship Him, instead of Father God? 

 

Let's just say that Jesus is God, Father God gets the Glory and Jesus gets the Glory.  Win! Win! They don't care because They are the same. 

 

Imagine the Imagery of Father and Son, a Father would rather die before his Son, so the sacrifice to the Father, was that much greater because His Son was sacrificed.

 

2 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

2. Why would God come to earth as a Human and then announced to the World that He is here to take away our sins?

He didnt come to Earth.  Because Jesus is not God.

 

How do you know?  You were not there, and you don't believe Scripture.

 

2 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

3. Why would God(Jesus) tell Satan He was God when He was on earth to take the punishment for our sins revealing His plan?  How stupid would that be??? :lol:

HE didnt tell Satan he was God.  Where is that verse at?

 

Of course HE ddn't tell Satan.  That would be stuipd! :lol:

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Who or what do you think Jesus is, if not God?

The Messiah.  Gods first creation.  The arcangel.

 

Finally! 

 

Is Jesus Michael the archangel?

Answers to Jehovah’s Witnesses #7
Robert M. Bowman Jr.
Post date: January 3, 2018
 

Summary: The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is the same person that the Bible calls Michael the archangel. This identification is part of the Jehovah’s Witness doctrine that Christ is a created angel rather than God. However, the Bible never makes this identification and in fact contradicts it.

 

This article is one of a series of articles explaining in detail the doctrines of Jehovah’s Witnesses and showing why those teachings are not in harmony with the facts and teachings of the Bible. For an overview, see our article on what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe.

 

 

What the Watchtower Teaches

 

Jehovah’s Witnesses are taught that Jesus Christ is the same person as Michael the archangel. In their view, identifying Christ as Michael confirms their belief that Christ is not God and does not have the authority or deserve the same honors as God. For example, in an article published in 2010, the Watchtower magazine asked, “Is Jesus the Archangel Michael?” Here was the response:

 

Put simply, the answer is yes…. Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel…. So Michael the archangel is Jesus in his prehuman existence. After his resurrection and return to heaven, Jesus resumed his service as Michael, the chief angel, “to the glory of God the Father.”1

 

This identification of Jesus as “Michael, the chief angel,” has practical ramifications for how one views Jesus or relates to him. The importance of the claim is illustrated by the following comments in the Watchtower in 2015:

 

The Bible writer Jude recorded an example from Jesus’ prehuman existence. (Read Jude 9.) As Michael the archangel, Jesus “had a difference with the Devil” and “was disputing” with that wicked one…. Yet, the Chief Angel recognized that it was not his place to bring judgment. Rather, he referred the case to the Supreme Judge, Jehovah. Michael thus refrained from overstepping his authority, even under provocation. What a humble attitude!2

 

Notice that the Watchtower Society argues here that Jesus Christ, as Michael, “refrained from overstepping his authority” because he was only “the Chief Angel” and that “it was not his place to bring judgment.” We have here the Jehovah’s Witness doctrine of the person of Christ in a nutshell: Jesus Christ was Michael, the chief angel, not God.

 

Biblical Response

 

There are five references in the Bible to Michael (Dan. 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev. 12:7), and in none of these passages is Jesus actually called Michael. The Watchtower Society has admitted that “there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus.”3 Nor does the Bible ever explicitly describe Jesus as an “archangel” (a word that appears in the canonical books of the Bible only twice, 1 Thess. 4:16; Jude 9) or as any other kind of angel. This puts the burden of proof on the Jehovah’s Witness to explain why they believe that Jesus is Michael.

 

By way of contrast, the New Testament repeatedly refers to Jesus explicitly as “God” (John 1:1; 20:28; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1).4 Yet the Watchtower Society goes out of its way to argue that he is not God! Since there is no comparable statement in the Bible that calls Jesus Michael or gives him the title archangel, the Watchtower offers “Scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.”5 We will consider each of these arguments one by one.

 

People could have two names.

 

The Watchtower argues that Jesus might also have the name Michael since human beings in the Bible sometimes have two names. One example they mention is Jacob, also called Israel (Gen. 35:10; 49:1-2). They also point out that Simon is called Peter and other forms of these names, Simeon and Cephas, the Aramaic equivalent to Peter (Matthew 10:2; 16:16; John 1:42; Acts 15:7, 14).6

 

In these instances, the Bible explicitly states that the two names belonged to the same individual; there is no need for guesswork. It is surely hazardous to base a doctrine on the possibility that the two names Jesus and Michael might belong to the same person without some statement to that effect.

 

Archangel means “chief angel.”

 

According to the Watchtower Society, “The prefix ‘arch,’ meaning ‘chief’ or ‘principal,’ implies that there is only one archangel, the chief angel.”7 On the premise that Christ was originally an angel created by God before everything else, Jehovah’s Witnesses conclude that he must be the chief angel and hence Michael.

 

Essentially, this is an argument from the etymology, or root elements of the word. Biblical scholars have been warning for decades that such appeals to the etymological forms of a word to determine its meaning are often erroneous.8 In this particular case, there are compelling reasons to reject the Watchtower’s argument.

 

First of all, some compound nouns using arch- are used in the Bible in plural forms to refer to a group of individuals, such as “chief priests” (archiereis, occurring 50 times in the New Testament, e.g., Matt. 2:4; Mark 14:53, 55; Luke 19:47; John 19:6) or “chief bodyguards” (archisōmatophylakes, Esther 2:21, LXX). When used as a part of titles such as these, the prefix arch- simply indicates that those who hold this title occupy a higher position than others. It tells us nothing about whether that title is held by one individual or more than one.

 

Second, if the word archangel by definition could refer to only one individual, then we would expect to find it always used in this way in ancient literature. To the contrary, ancient Jewish texts commonly speak of a group of archangels, either four or seven. Michael, Sariel (or Uriel), Raphael, and Gabriel are the usual four archangels; in lists of seven archangels, Sariel and Uriel are treated separately and the names Raguel and Remiel are added.9 The point here is not that these Jewish texts carry any divine authority as inspired Scripture. The issue here is lexical—what the word meant—not theological. Perhaps there is only one archangel, or four, or seven, or a hundred. The Bible does not say explicitly how many there are. The word “archangel” does not answer this question.

 

Michael is called the archangel (Jude 9), indicating that he is the only one.

 

Jehovah’s Witnesses often appeal to the use of the Greek article (translated “the”) in theological arguments. Such arguments need to be considered very cautiously, as it is easy to make mistakes. Here the Watchtower argues that since Michael is called “the archangel” in Jude 9 “This suggests that there is only one such angel.”10 This inference is fallacious. The expression “Michael the archangel” is similar to the expressions “the angel Gabriel” (Luke 1:26) and “Nathan the prophet” (2 Sam. 7:2, etc.), which of course do not mean that Gabriel was the only angel or that Nathan was the only prophet. The article tells us nothing whatsoever as to whether Michael was the only archangel.

 

There are no references in the Bible to archangels in the plural.

 

The Watchtower Society has repeatedly pointed out that the term archangel “occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural.”11 This sounds like an impressive point until one considers the fact that the word archangel occurs only twice in the whole Bible (1 Thess. 4:16; Jude 9)!

Other words appear in the Bible that happen for whatever reason to occur only in the singular form, but that could have been used in a plural form in reference to more than one person or thing. A particularly relevant example is the word “chief tax collector” (architelōnēs, Luke 19:2).

 

The standard lexical reference work by Louw and Nida explains this term to mean “chief tax collector, in the sense of one who controlled activities of certain other tax collectors—‘chief tax collector, director of tax collectors.’ …It is also possible to understand ἀρχιτελώνης as meaning a principal or important tax collector rather than one who controlled the activities of other tax collectors.”12 Zacchaeus was obviously not the head of tax collection for the entire Roman army, but just for his territory or region. So here we have another noun with the prefix arch- (“chief”) that can refer to more than one individual (in this case a group of principal or supervisor tax collectors); perhaps we could translate the term “senior tax collector.” The word just so happens to occur only one time in the Bible and in the singular.

 

Likewise, from the fact that the word archangel occurs only as a singular in the Bible, we cannot reasonably infer that there can be only one archangel. This is a hasty generalization (since the word only occurs twice) and is proven to be mistaken reasoning from the fact that other words occur only as singular forms but that could be used as plurals.

 

Daniel predicts that Michael will be the king at the time of the end (Dan. 12:1).

 

The Watchtower argues that when Daniel speaks of Michael “standing up” as “the great prince,” this prophecy corresponds to what the New Testament reveals Christ will do as God’s appointed king:

 

In Daniel’s prophecy, “standing up” frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.13

 

The Watchtower’s reasoning here ignores the way Michael is introduced in the book of Daniel. After three weeks of fasting in mourning, Daniel had a vision of a supernatural being (Dan. 10:5-6) who spoke to him (10:9). The being urged Daniel not to fear and told him,

 

“The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia…. But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come. But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince” (Dan. 10:13, 20-21).

 

In this passage, Michael is the prince of Israel or of the Jewish nation, comparable to other supernatural beings that were the princes of Persia and Greece. Michael was not the only being of his kind, but is specifically said to have been “one of the chief princes” (10:13). This statement—the first reference to Michael in the Bible—immediately establishes him as one of a class of supernatural beings. He clearly cannot be the person later called Jesus Christ, not even in Watchtower theology, which while viewing him as a creature places him in a category of his own as the only creature made directly by God.

 

Jesus has the voice of an archangel (1 Thess. 4:16).

 

Paul told the Thessalonian Christians that when Christ returned, “the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God” (1 Thess. 4:16 ESV). According to the Watchtower magazine, “Jesus Christ himself is here identified as the archangel, or chief angel.”14 In other places the Watchtower has explained that Paul’s statement identifies Jesus as the archangel because Jesus’ voice “is described as being that of an archangel.”15 After all, “It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call ‘with an archangel’s voice.’”16

 

This plausible-sounding interpretation is mistaken for several reasons.

 

First of all, Paul’s statement would be a very strange way of speaking if Jesus was an archangel. It would be like someone saying that when Abraham Lincoln went to Gettysburg, he went with the voice of a man—meaning his own voice. If Paul wanted the Thessalonians to learn that Jesus was an archangel, he went about it in a very peculiar way; and if he had already taught them that Jesus was an archangel, saying that Jesus was coming “with an archangel’s voice” would also be odd. The fact is that the text makes much better sense in context when we recognize that Paul is not speaking of Christ as an archangel.

 

For another thing, most likely Paul’s statement actually distinguishes the “shout” or “cry of command” as different from the “voice of an archangel.” There are three prepositional phrases here, all beginning with the preposition en (“in,” “with”):

 

            en keleusmati                          “with a commanding cry”
            en phōnē archangelou              “with the voice of the archangel”
            en salpingi theou                     “with the trumpet of God”

 

The most natural way to understand these three phrases is to take them as referring to three distinct sounds: a commanding cry, the voice of an archangel, and the blast of a trumpet of God. The first sound, the “commanding cry,” is given by “the Lord” himself, and in his cry is joined by the shout of an archangel and the blast of God’s trumpet.17 If this is correct, the “commanding cry” is not given by the archangel at all.

 

In any case, the text simply does not equate Christ with the archangel. Indeed, Paul refers to Jesus Christ not as an archangel but as “the Lord” who “will descend from heaven.” This language clearly echoes texts in the Old Testament in which “the LORD,” that is, Jehovah (YHWH), came down or descended to meet his people (Exod. 19:11, 16, 18a, 19-20). In the cultural setting of Paul’s epistles, his imagery pictures an archangel as an authoritative representative of the divine king coming down ahead of the Lord, heralding his imminent arrival.

 

As New Testament scholar Ben Witherington points out, “a royal visit to a city would be announced by a herald (see Ps. 24.7-10) and might well also be announced by a trumpet blast to alert those in the city that the king was coming.”18 Thus, the archangel’s voice functions as that of the herald coming in advance of the king and it should not be confused with the voice of the king himself.

 

In short, a close reading of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 in its historical and cultural context shows that Paul distinguishes between Jesus, who is the divine, royal Lord, and the archangel who will come ahead of the Lord Jesus to herald his coming.

 

Michael (in Revelation 12:7) and Jesus are both identified as the leader of an army of angels.

 

The Book of Revelation contains a vision in which John says, “Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon” (Rev. 12:7). Jehovah’s Witnesses note that this statement refers to “Michael and his angels,” while elsewhere the New Testament speaks of Christ and “his angels” (Matt. 13:41; 16:27; 24:31; Mark 13:27; 2 Thess. 1:7). Later in the Book of Revelation, John describes a vision in which Christ, called “the Word of God,” leads “the armies of heaven” (Rev. 19:13-14). The Watchtower argues, “Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.”19

 

This argument, if pursued consistently, would “prove” that Christ is not only Michael the archangel but also God the Father, since the New Testament also refers to the angels as God’s angels or the Father’s angels (Matt. 4:6; 22:30; 26:53; Luke 4:10; 12:8-9; 15:10; John 1:51; Heb. 1:6; Rev. 3:5). Since Jesus is not the Father, there is something wrong with this reasoning.

We should not understand the Bible to be saying that there are two separate armies of angels, one headed by Christ and the other by Michael, nor that the one army of angels is headed by Christ who is Michael. Rather, evidently Michael leads the army of angels in Revelation 12:7 on behalf of Christ, who is his superior. Just as we might speak of the president’s army and also refer to it as a general’s army without identifying the general as the president, the New Testament speaks of Christ’s angels and also of Michael’s angels without identifying Christ as Michael.

 

In Revelation 12, Michael and his angels are fighting the “great red dragon,” which represents Satan the devil, in a “war in heaven” after Jesus Christ was born on earth as “the Lamb,” shed his “blood” to conquer the devil, and ascended to God and his throne (Rev. 12:3-11). Far from identifying Christ as Michael, this passage pictures Christ sharing God’s throne and ruling with him while Michael and his angels throw the devil and his angels down to the earth. Reading Revelation 12:7 in context, then, makes it quite clear that Michael is not Christ.

 

There are of course similarities between Michael and Christ in the Bible. Both are supernatural beings, both lead angelic armies, both fight on behalf of God’s people, and both have close access to the presence of God. On the other hand, the New Testament never identifies Jesus Christ as Michael, as an archangel, or as an angel at all. Rather, in various ways, the New Testament exalts Christ above the angels as their divine Lord. This point is developed in great detail in Hebrews 1–2, in which the divine Son is contrasted in terms of his titles and roles with the angels. The question, “To which of the angels did he ever say…?” (Heb. 1:5, 13) is a rhetorical question to which the understood answer is, “None.” The Son is not one of the angels, but is instead worshiped by them (Heb. 1:6) and identified as “God” and “Lord” (1:8, 10).

 

NOTES


1. “Is Jesus the Archangel Michael?” Watchtower, 1 April 2010, 19.

2. “Imitate Jesus’ Humility and Tenderness,” Watchtower, 15 Feb. 2015, 6, repeated in Examining the Scriptures, March 2016, 27. The same point was made in “Honor the Son, Jehovah’s Chief Agent,” Watchtower, 1 Feb. 1991, 17.

3. “Who Is Michael the Archangel?” Awake!, 8 Feb. 2002, 16.

4. All biblical quotations here are from the ESV. For a discussion of the translation and interpretation of these verses, see Robert M. Bowman Jr. and J. Ed Komoszewski, Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2007), 138–56.

5. What Does the Bible Really Teach? (Watchtower, 2005), 218.

6. Ibid., 218; “Is Jesus the Archangel Michael?” Watchtower, 1 April 2010, 19.

7. “Archangel,” in Insight on the Scriptures (Watchtower, 1988), 1:156; verbatim in “Honor the Son, Jehovah’s Chief Agent,” 17; see also “Who Is Michael the Archangel,” 16; “Is Jesus the Archangel Michael,” 19.

8. E.g., D. A. Carson, Exegetical Fallacies, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1996), 28–33; Grant R. Osborne, The Hermeneutical Spiral: A Comprehensive Introduction to Biblical Interpretation, rev. and expanded ed. (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2006), 84–89.

9. Darrell D. Hannah, Michael and Christ: Michael Traditions and Angel Christology in Early Christianity, WUNT 2/109 (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 1999), 29.

10. What Does the Bible Really Teach, 218.

11. Ibid.; so also “Who Is Michael the Archangel,” 17; “Is Jesus the Archangel Michael,” 19; “Michael,” in Insight on the Scriptures, 2:393.

12. Johannes P. Louw and Eugene A. Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains, 2nd ed. (New York: United Bible Societies, 1989), §57.185 (1:579).

13. “Michael,” in Insight on the Scriptures, 2:394.

14. “Is Jesus the Archangel Michael,” 19.

15. “Michael,” in Insight on the Scriptures, 2:393–94; What Does the Bible Really Teach, 218.

16. “Who Is Michael the Archangel,” 17.

17. Several exegetical commentaries discuss this question, e.g., Charles A. Wanamaker, The Epistles to the Thessalonians: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1990), 173, who supports the interpretation favored here.

18. Ben Witherington III, 1 and 2 Thessalonians: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2006), 138.

19. What Does the Bible Really Teach, 219; see also “Michael,” in Insight on the Scriptures, 2:394.

 

 

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3 hours ago, nstoolman1 said:

I know plenty of things. If Mr. Montana wants me to be quiet he will tell me. There are only 2 people I HAVE  to listen to and you are not one of them. 

Mark has been showing you all through this thread where you are off point and you keep arguing with him. You insist on name calling and childish behavior and then get mad that someone calls you on it. I guess I could just report your posts and let the mods deal with you but you keep asking for them so I will accommodate you.  It is not your bible verses that I neg, it is your condescending attitude. 

You remind me of another poster who has not been on awhile who defended the JW religion. 

Specifically where is the name calling?  And Markinsa DID create this thread so he and I could debate.  Ask him yourself.  Also show me the childish behavior.  Let me know.  Did I say nanny nanny boo boo stick your head in doo doo?  Let me know where I am acting like a kid.  Be specific.

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39 minutes ago, PrehistoricMan said:

And Markinsa DID create this thread so he and I could debate.  Ask him yourself. 

 

That is incorrect.  

 

Below is how I got involved.  I had no intention of debating anyone when this Topic was created.

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Markinsa said:

 

That is incorrect.  

 

Below is how I got involved.  I had no intention of debating anyone when this Topic was created.

 

 

 

Yet you kept asking me question after question wanting me to engage with you did you not?  I said I didnt debate mods multiple times yet you insisted.  OR are you saying I made that up?  But since you have said this perhaps we better stop now eh?  This tells me you would like to not talk anymore.  Correct?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Yet you kept asking me question after question wanting me to engage with you did you not?  I said I didnt debate mods multiple times yet you insisted.  OR are you saying I made that up?

 

 

You are entitled to your opinion, which you have freely provided throughout this Topic, but what you said is entirely your own truth, which again you have spread without regard to the actual truth which seems to escape you on every level.

 

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53 minutes ago, nstoolman1 said:

Looks like name calling to me. 

No, you said you gave rubies for me doing name calling.  On the previous 10 pages, WHERE is the name calling?  

 

And this idiot comment is who is doing the rubies.  Since I have no idea who is doing it, it is not specific to a person.

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1 hour ago, Markinsa said:

 

You are entitled to your opinion, which you have freely provided throughout this Topic, but what you said is entirely your own truth, which again you have spread without regard to the actual truth which seems to escape you on every level.

 

What is the actual truth then that is escaping me?

 

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4 hours ago, Markinsa said:

 

Let's start at the beginning and every post I've made in this Topic since then. :twothumbs:

 

 

The truth is on my side.  John 17: Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Here Jesus says the ONLY true God would be the father.  You read it and say Oh Jesus is God too.  Why would Jesus, IF he is God, teach people that only the father is the true God?   Wouldnt he say he is the true God too?  Why at John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”  If Jesus is God then how can he HAVE a God?  

 

Do kings usually say they have a king?  Does President Biden say he has a president over him?

 

Yeah the truth is not on your side.  IT is on the scriptures side.

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5 hours ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Yeah the truth is not on your side.  IT is on the scriptures side.

 

You should really try to read all of John 17, because later on in that same Chapter, Jesus said He was with God before the world existed, meaning he was with God prior to Creation.

 

[Jhn 17:5 NASB20] 5 "And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.

 

Why does God and Jesus have the same Name?  Actually, this whole Chapter is Jesus explaining to us that He and the Father are One (in the same).

 

[Jhn 17:5, 11 NASB20] 5 "And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed. ... 11 "I am no longer [going to be] in the world; and [yet] they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, [the name] which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We [are.]

 

 

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@PrehistoricMan Some more verses for you.  Jesus is God. :twothumbs:

 

[2Sa 22:3 NASB20] 3 My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My Savior, You save me from violence.


[2Ki 13:5 NASB20] 5 And the LORD gave Israel a Savior, so that they escaped from under the hand of the Arameans; and the sons of Israel lived in their tents as previously.


[Psa 17:7 NASB20] 7 Show Your wonderful faithfulness, Savior of those who take refuge at Your right hand From those who rise up [against them.]


[Psa 18:2 NASB20] 2 The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my Savior, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.


[Psa 40:17 NASB20] 17 But I am afflicted and needy; May the Lord be mindful of me. You are my help and my Savior; Do not delay, my God.


[Psa 70:5 NASB20] 5 But I am afflicted and needy; Hurry to me, God! You are my help and my Savior; LORD, do not delay.


[Psa 106:21 NASB20] 21 They forgot God their Savior, Who had done great things in Egypt,


[Psa 144:2 NASB20] 2 My faithfulness and my fortress, My stronghold and my Savior, My shield and He in whom I take refuge, Who subdues my people under me.


[Isa 19:20 NASB20] 20 And it will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of armies in the land of Egypt; for they will cry out to the LORD because of oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He will save them.


[Isa 43:3, 11 NASB20] 3 "For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in exchange for you. ... 11 "I, [only] I, am the LORD, And there is no Savior besides Me.


[Isa 45:15, 21 NASB20] 15 Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, God of Israel, Savior! ... 21 "Declare and present [your case;] Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this long ago? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.


[Isa 49:26 NASB20] 26 "I will feed your oppressors with their own flesh, And they will become drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine; And humanity will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."


[Isa 60:16 NASB20] 16 "You will also suck the milk of nations, And suck the breast of kings; Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.


[Isa 63:8 NASB20] 8 For He said, "Certainly they are My people, Sons who will not deal falsely." So He became their Savior.


[Jer 14:8 NASB20] 8 "Hope of Israel, Its Savior in time of distress, Why are You like a stranger in the land, Or like a traveler who has pitched [his tent] for the night?


[Hos 13:4 NASB20] 4 Yet I [have been] the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no Savior besides Me.


[Luk 1:47 NASB20] 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.


[Luk 2:11 NASB20] 11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.


[Jhn 4:42 NASB20] 42 and they were saying to the woman, "[It is] no longer because of what you said [that] we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One truly is the Savior of the world."


[Act 5:31 NASB20] 31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


[Act 13:23 NASB20] 23 "From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,


[Eph 5:23 NASB20] 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself [being] the Savior of the body.


[Phl 3:20 NASB20] 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;


[1Ti 1:1 NASB20] 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, [who is] our hope,


[1Ti 2:3 NASB20] 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,


[1Ti 4:10 NASB20] 10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers.


[2Ti 1:10 NASB20] 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


[Titus 1:3-4 NASB20] 3 but at the proper time revealed His word in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior; 4 To Titus, my true son in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.


[Titus 2:10, 13 NASB20] 10 not stealing, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. ... 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,


[Titus 3:4, 6 NASB20] 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and [His] love for mankind appeared, ... 6 whom He richly poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior,


[2Pe 1:1, 11 NASB20] 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: ... 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


[2Pe 2:20 NASB20] 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.


[2Pe 3:2, 18 NASB20] 2 to remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior [spoken] by your apostles. ... 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him [be] the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.


[1Jo 4:14 NASB20] 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son [to be] the Savior of the world.


[Jde 1:25 NASB20] 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, [be] glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all time and now and forever. Amen.

 

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How about this?  So I dont have to respond to three different posts.  How about we establish a rule.  You post once, then I post once.  But this scatter brained posting 6 times in a row....is nonsense.  Also how about just posting two verses at a time so one isnt here ALL day posting to counter them?  You keep posting Gone with the wind type posts.  Meaning long as heck.  Whaddya say?

 

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1 hour ago, PrehistoricMan said:

How about this?  So I dont have to respond to three different posts.  How about we establish a rule.  You post once, then I post once.  But this scatter brained posting 6 times in a row....is nonsense.  Also how about just posting two verses at a time so one isnt here ALL day posting to counter them?  You keep posting Gone with the wind type posts.  Meaning long as heck.  Whaddya say?

 

 

You have a post with 53-54 Questions and I answer over half of them, which I never received a response from you, and now you want to limit our posts to just two verses at a time and ignore my previous 3 posts?  In my last post, If you understood those verses, you would understand that there is no way any sane person could continue to deny Jesus is God.

 

Answer the previous posts and going forward we can go with 2 verses. 

 

We may be allowed to add commentary from other sources, and we should try our best to respond to those commentaries. 

 

.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Markinsa said:

 

You have a post with 53-54 Questions and I answer over half of them, which I never received a response from you, and now you want to limit our posts to just two verses at a time and ignore my previous 3 posts?  In my last post, If you understood those verses, you would understand that there is no way any sane person could continue to deny Jesus is God.

 

Answer the previous posts and going forward we can go with 2 verses. 

 

We may be allowed to add commentary from other sources, and we should try our best to respond to those commentaries. 

 

.

 

 

No you try to fill someone with info.  In fact trying to bully me by posting all of that stuff.  I am saying lets knock it off and just discuss 2 verses at a time.  But it seems you dont want to do that.  You just want to post pages of stuff.  Ok fine.  We just wont talk but just both post pages and pages of into with discussing.  Hella of a way to teach ya got there.

Defend Jehovah's Witnesses: Was Jesus Executed on a Cross or an Upright Stake? Should the Cross Be Used in Worship to God? (defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com)

Was Jesus Executed on a Cross or an Upright Stake? Should the Cross Be Used in Worship to God?

 
Many are surprised to read in several Bibles that Jesus was hung upon a "tree" at Acts 5:30.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/acts/5-30-compare.html

This is because the word "Stau·ros´ in both the classical Greek and Koine carries no thought of a "cross" made of two timbers. It means only an upright stake, pale, pile, or pole:

"The Greek word for `cross' (Stau·ros´) means primarily an upright stake or beam, and secondarily a stake used as an instrument for punishment and execution." - Douglas' New Bible Dictionary of 1985 under "Cross," page 253.

And noted Greek scholar W. E. Vine mentions the following concerning this subject:
  "STAUROS denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross." - Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1981, Vol. 1, p. 256. Vine also goes on to describe the Chaldean origin of the two-piece cross and how it was adopted from the pagans by Christendom in the third century C.E. as a symbol of Christ's impalement.

The Pagan History of the Cross

Not only does the Greek word Stau·ros´ not mean a "cross" made of two timbers, but the cross "was an emblem to which religious and mystical meanings were attached long before the Christian era." - Chamber's Encyclopaedia, 1969 ed.

The pagan Romans used the symbol of the cross before and during the early days of Christianity: "These crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian sun-god ... and are first seen on a coin of Juolius Caesar, 100-44 B.C., and then on a coin struck by Caesar's heir (Augustus), 20 B.C." - The Companion Bible.

And Prof. G.F. Snyder points out that "The sign of the cross has been a symbol of great antiquity, present in nearly every known culture. .... The universal use of the sign of the cross makes more poignant the striking lack of crosses in early Christian remains, especially any specific reference to the event on Golgotha. Most scholars now agree that the cross, as an artistic reference to the passion event, cannot be found prior to the time of Constantine." - p. 27, Ante Pacem - Archaeological Evidence of Church Life Before Constantinte.

The Baptist NT scholar W.E. Vine wrote about "Cross":

"STAUROS ... denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten on a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross. The shape of the latter had its origins in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ." - p. 248, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, 1983 printing.

"In ancient Israel, unfaithful Jews wept over the death of the false god Tammuz. Jehovah spoke of what they were doing as being a `detestable thing.' (Ezek. 8:13, 14) According to history, Tammuz was a Babylonian god, and the cross was used as his symbol. From its beginning in the days of Nimrod, Babylon was against Jehovah and an enemy of true worship. (Gen. 10:8-10; Jer. 50:29) So by cherishing the cross, a person is honoring a symbol of worship that is opposed to the true God." - Reasoning From the Scriptures, "Cross".

The Cross - A Form of Idolatry 

But even if we ignore the evidence and assume that Jesus was killed on a cross, the most important thing is that the cross should not be venerated. Whether it was an upright single torture stake, a cross, an arrow, a lance, or a knife, should such an instrument really be used in worship?

Not only should the thought of venerating the very instrument of Jesus' execution be repelling in itself, but the symbol of the cross is also a pagan symbol...idolatry that God commands us to not even "touch":

“What agreement does God’s temple have with idols?...'Quit touching the unclean thing.'" (2 Corinthians 6:16, 17)

“Guard yourselves from idols.” (1 John 5:21)

"You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion." (Exodus 20:4-5)

Long before the Christian era, crosses were used by the ancient Babylonians as symbols in their worship of the fertility god Tammuz. The use of the cross spread into Egypt, India, Syria, and China. Then, centuries later, the Israelites adulterated their worship of Jehovah God with acts of veneration to the false god Tammuz. The Bible refers to this form of worship as a ‘detestable thing.’ - Ezekiel 8:13, 14.

First-century Christians, however, held the sacrificial death of Christ in high esteem. Likewise today, although the instrument used to torture and kill Jesus is not to be worshipped, true Christians commemorate Jesus’ death as the means by which God provides salvation to imperfect humans.
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1 minute ago, PrehistoricMan said:

No you try to fill someone with info.  In fact trying to bully me by posting all of that stuff.  I am saying lets knock it off and just discuss 2 verses at a time.  But it seems you dont want to do that.  You just want to post pages of stuff. 

 

Posting scripture is bullying you? What do you call this post?

 

 

But I answered over half of them.  Where is your rebuttal to those answers????  I have answered most of your posts, point by point, please try and show me the same courtesy.

 

And now you post something that is totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand, Is Jesus God? :facepalm:

 

I win. Jesus is God.  Take your ball and go home.

 

 

.

 

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42 minutes ago, Markinsa said:

 

Posting scripture is bullying you? What do you call this post?

 

 

But I answered over half of them.  Where is your rebuttal to those answers????  I have answered most of your posts, point by point, please try and show me the same courtesy.

 

And now you post something that is totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand, Is Jesus God? :facepalm:

 

I win. Jesus is God.  Take your ball and go home.

 

 

.

 

Because your answers were NON answers.  None of them explain that if Jesus is God he surely is weak as heck.  Why wouldnt God know when the end of time is?  Jesus has NO clue when it is.  Etc. etc.  You didnt answer that.  You answered well Jesus is human form doesnt have the full power of God etc. which none of that is in the Bible.  That is pure assumption.  Jesus is still not God.  You take one thing said and try to join it with another thing said which have NO correlation between the two.  Like the I AM nonsense.  God said I AM in Exodus, then Jesus said it and then you try to marry the two.  It is voodoo mathematics.

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39 minutes ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Because your answers were NON answers.  None of them explain that if Jesus is God he surely is weak as heck.  Why wouldnt God know when the end of time is?  Jesus has NO clue when it is.  Etc. etc.  You didnt answer that.  You answered well Jesus is human form doesnt have the full power of God etc. which none of that is in the Bible.  That is pure assumption. 

 

All of the above questions are answered in the below verses.  In Order to be a Perfect Sacrifice Jesus assumed human form and emptied himself of all of His powers.

 

[Phl 2:5-8 NASB20] 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He [already] existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself [by] taking the form of a bond-servant [and] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.

 

As far as, Jesus' knowledge is concerned, I am assuming God gave Jesus the knowledge He needed at the time to perform His mission.  Again that is an assumption and it would be something you need to take up with Jesus when you talk to Him face to face.  The evidence He has provided is evidently sufficient enough to convince anyone who He is.  Some are more hard headed than others. 

 

39 minutes ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Jesus is still not God

 

Jesus has ALWAYS been God. :twothumbs:

 

See Below, in verse 1, Peter says Jesus is God and Savior.  Then skip down to verse 11, Peter uses our Lord and Savior.

 

[2Pe 1:1 NASB20] 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

 

[2Pe 1:11 NASB20] 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

And if you go back to Isaiah 43:3 and 11, you see the below verses.  God says there is "NO SAVIOR besides ME."  So, if there is NO SAVIOR BESIDES GOD" then why is Jesus Called God AND Savior??? See 2 Peter 1:1 above.  

 

[Isa 43:3, 11 NASB20] 3 "For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in exchange for you. ... 11 "I, [only] I, am the LORD, And there is no Savior besides Me.

 

This theme goes throughout the below post I made earlier today.  You deny it, but it is right there in print. 

 

 

 

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On 9/16/2021 at 10:53 PM, Markinsa said:

6 who, as He [already] existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped

 

14 minutes ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Jesus can empty himself of all his powers as an angel too eh?  Or you dont think Angels have power?

 

It took you 24+ hrs to come up with that lame answer? :lol: You conveniently overlooked verse 6.

 

14 minutes ago, PrehistoricMan said:

Hey Markinsa, do you think the baptists, methodists, catholics and others are TRUE religions too?

 

Let's stay on topic. :twothumbs:

 

OH and you forgot to answer the below:

 

[2Pe 1:1 NASB20] 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

 

[2Pe 1:11 NASB20] 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

And if you go back to Isaiah 43:3 and 11, you see the below verses.  God says there is "NO SAVIOR besides ME."  So, if there is NO SAVIOR BESIDES GOD" then why is Jesus Called God AND Savior??? See 2 Peter 1:1 above.  

 

[Isa 43:3, 11 NASB20] 3 "For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in exchange for you. ... 11 "I, [only] I, am the LORD, And there is no Savior besides Me.

 

.

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Apologies for putting my oar in this boat too.

John 1:1 ESV

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 10:30 ESV 

30 I and the Father are one.”

Titus 2:13 ESV

13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Good luck Mark, you've quote so much as evidence that Y'shua is God. 💕

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6 hours ago, Sage449 said:

Apologies for putting my oar in this boat too.

John 1:1 ESV

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 10:30 ESV 

30 I and the Father are one.”

Titus 2:13 ESV

13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Good luck Mark, you've quote so much as evidence that Y'shua is God. 💕

If you re read the previous 10 pages, all of those verses were already explained ad nauseum.  

If you had re read it and were honest, you would also say that I have provided much evidence to prove Jesus is not God....but I doubt you will have the courage to read about it.

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On 9/18/2021 at 5:34 PM, Markinsa said:

 

 

It took you 24+ hrs to come up with that lame answer? :lol: You conveniently overlooked verse 6.

 

 

Let's stay on topic. :twothumbs:

 

OH and you forgot to answer the below:

 

[2Pe 1:1 NASB20] 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

 

[2Pe 1:11 NASB20] 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

And if you go back to Isaiah 43:3 and 11, you see the below verses.  God says there is "NO SAVIOR besides ME."  So, if there is NO SAVIOR BESIDES GOD" then why is Jesus Called God AND Savior??? See 2 Peter 1:1 above.  

 

[Isa 43:3, 11 NASB20] 3 "For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in exchange for you. ... 11 "I, [only] I, am the LORD, And there is no Savior besides Me.

 

.

So there is no savior besides God eh?  Judges 3:9 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And the children of Israel called to LORD JEHOVAH, and LORD JEHOVAH raised up a Savior for the children of Israel, and Athneil, son of Qanaz, the brother of Kalab who was younger than he, delivered them

 

Oops.  Here Athneil is called a SAVIOR.....Oh, I guess by Markinsas logic THAT makes Athneil to be God Almighty eh?  

Judges 3:15 But when the children of Israel cried unto Jehovah, Jehovah raised them up a saviour, Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjamite, a man left-handed. And the children of Israel sent tribute by him unto Eglon the king of Moab.

 

Uh oh.  ANOTHER SAVIOR arrives on the scene.  Ehud is NOW God Almighty.  I mean according to Markinsas logic.  Because AS HE STATES if ANYONE is called a SAVIOR, then they are automatically God Almighty.  

 

Notice folks how Markinsa will NOT say if Methodists baptists or catholics are a true religion?  Because if he told you what he really thinks....he would lose your support.  Because I am sure some of you subscribe to those religions.  

 

I didnt over look verse 6 of philippians.  In fact here ya go.  

What does it mean when Phil. 2:6 says that Jesus was in God's form?

 
Many trinitarian Bible scholars attempt to force an interpretation of "form" [morphe] that includes the idea of "essence" or "nature." However, even many trinitarian Bible scholars admit:

"Morphe is instanced from Homer onwards and means form in the sense of outward appearance." - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Zondervan, p. 705, vol. 1.

Thayer agrees that morphe is

"the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance" - Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 418, Baker Book House. [Also see Young's Analytical Concordance (also compare the closely-related morphosis) and Liddell and Scott's An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, p. 519, Oxford University Press, 1994 printing.]

If Paul had intended `nature,' `very essence,' etc., he certainly would not have used a word which means only external appearance (morphe). He would have used one of the words which really mean absolute nature.

And EVEN IF we allowed the modern, forced “nature” meaning for morphe, we still wouldn’t necessarily have to understand Jesus as being equally God with the Father. As the trinitarian Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publ., tells us:

“the name [‘angel’] does not denote their nature [just as the title ‘God’ or ‘god’ does not necessarily denote one’s nature], but their office as messengers” - p. 38. “As to their nature, they are spirits.” - p. 39.

Or, as the equally trinitarian New Bible Dictionary (2nd ed.), Tyndale House, 1982, tells us, angels are “uncorrupted spirit in original essence.” - p. 36.

Today’s Dictionary of the Bible also tells us that this nature (“spirit”) of angels is “the divine nature” - p. 593. And the New Bible Dictionary admits: “in his nature God is pure spirit.” - p. 427.

Therefore, God, Jesus, and the angels all have the “essence” or “nature” of spirit. This obviously does not make them all equally God! Man, mouse, and canary are certainly not all equally man simply because they all have the same “essence” or “nature” of flesh.Search For Bible Truths: What does it mean when Phil. 2:6 says that Jesus was in God's form?
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