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cranman VS God


cranman
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Topic Spilt from: 

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Shabibilicious said:

 

No no.....I brought it up because of you.  For all the people on this forum, you provide scripture more than anyone and so I figured you must feel some sort of inner conflict when obeying leadership scriptures are brought forward and I simply wanted to see how you felt about it.  

 

As for me, I've made it plain and clear a number of times, that although the Bible is indeed the word of God, it also has many different variations and has been written, rewritten, and edited numerous times over the centuries by MEN....Before I encountered so many folks who all had differing thoughts on the word and what it means to them, some expressing such with fire and brimstone in their tone, my walk with the Lord was much easier....I'm not saying you, so don't take it as such, but some use the word to divide, not for love, or sharing with kindness in their heart.

 

GO RV, then BV

Due to be interpreted differently and written and rewritten by man, is one reason we have mutiple religions in the world. Even in our own country we have mutiple denominations with different understandings of the bible and it's writings.  It's called faith for a reason. 

 

But I'm an atheist so there's that. Lol

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2 hours ago, cranman said:

Due to be interpreted differently and written and rewritten by man, is one reason we have mutiple religions in the world. Even in our own country we have mutiple denominations with different understandings of the bible and it's writings.  It's called faith for a reason. 

 

But I'm an atheist so there's that. Lol

 

Psalms 14:1 1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” ...

 

.

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2 minutes ago, Markinsa said:

 

Psalms 14:1 1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” ...

 

.

Hmmmm. Are you calling me a fool? 

 

Do unto others as you would have done to you .

 

I do not recall asking you to call me a name or ask you to quote scripture. I have been confirmed,  baptized,  attended CCD and was an alter boy for 4 years. I just don't believe.  I live my life like most people and am a generally good person. You don't have to believe in a deity to be a good person.

You implying I'm a fool because I don't believe shows what a shallow person you are. Almost implying you are better. All that matters in life is that you treat others with respect regardless of race, color. creed, religion, sex or belief and you get treated the same. Regardless if you are not a believer.  

 

I truly get irritated when people throw out scripture as if they are a better person because they believe. Religion is a fine thing for those who believe and I would never insult them for believing. I love to debate religion as it gives me more insight as why people believe as it gives them insight as why I do not eventhough I have been exposed to it in and have had a positive experience. Nothing bad has happened in my life to make me stop believing and I'm not lost.

 

I suggest in the future that you be a little more careful in how you use what's in the bible.  It's called faith and not fact for a reason.

 

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50 minutes ago, boomhand86 said:

Her destiny is gods will 

Stating someone's destiny is God's will is suggesting that the person has no free will and that their destiny has been pre ordained.  If that is the case then who has free will to live their life as they see fit? Or are you saying God has judged this person and is manipulating the  persons actions.? 

 

Again, I like to debate( not argue) religion.

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32 minutes ago, cranman said:

Hmmmm. Are you calling me a fool? 

 

Do unto others as you would have done to you .

 

I do not recall asking you to call me a name or ask you to quote scripture. I have been confirmed,  baptized,  attended CCD and was an alter boy for 4 years. I just don't believe.  I live my life like most people and am a generally good person. You don't have to believe in a deity to be a good person.

You implying I'm a fool because I don't believe shows what a shallow person you are. Almost implying you are better. All that matters in life is that you treat others with respect regardless of race, color. creed, religion, sex or belief and you get treated the same. Regardless if you are not a believer.  

 

I truly get irritated when people throw out scripture as if they are a better person because they believe. Religion is a fine thing for those who believe and I would never insult them for believing. I love to debate religion as it gives me more insight as why people believe as it gives them insight as why I do not eventhough I have been exposed to it in and have had a positive experience. Nothing bad has happened in my life to make me stop believing and I'm not lost.

 

I suggest in the future that you be a little more careful in how you use what's in the bible.  It's called faith and not fact for a reason.

 

 

I did not call you a name, I just provided a verse out of the Bible.  You know God's Word.  That's what God says, if you don't want to believe that, that is your choice.  That is what God has given all of us, choice.   If you feel like you don't need him, he won't force you to believe in him.  But know this, all those that choose to follow their own ways will not be forced to be with Him for eternity.  You figure out the rest. 

 

And why do you get irritated?  is it a reminder that you know better?  And why would I stick my neck out for you to get it bitten off because you didn't like what I said?  I'm not better than you, probably far from it.  My only redeeming quality is that God created me and loves me, and has saved me through the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ. 

 

And as far as being a good person:

 

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, cranman said:

Due to be interpreted differently and written and rewritten by man, is one reason we have mutiple religions in the world. Even in our own country we have mutiple denominations with different understandings of the bible and it's writings.  It's called faith for a reason. 

 

But I'm an atheist so there's that. Lol

Friend,

 

I'm not here tonight to talk about men,

or to talk about church or religion, for

all those things have their failures and

flaws; every one can stand up and make accusations against these things. Mankind is weak and sinful, religion is sometimes weak and failing; but Christ, there is no one like Christ. He’s the King of kings and the Lord of lords. He’s the Son of God, He is infinite perfection, He is strong, He is mighty, He has never failed, and He has fulfilled every promise He has ever made! You have no arguments against Him, for there is no one like Him. He and He alone is the Savior of the world, and the Christ of God! So it's all about Christ!!! What do you think of Him?!?For that is the very basis of God's judgment of men. While it is true that one day you will stand before God and be judged with regard to your sin, you must understand that the greatest question on that day will be this. What think ye of Jesus Christ? What have you done with Christ?

 

Jesus Christ created you and in that, He has a claim upon you. He is your maker and by virtue of that He is also your possessor, your owner, and not only does He take ownership but He is also Lord! You say I do not see that, I’m an atheist, where is His throne! Know this, that God has appointed a day in which He will judge every man through this One whom was crucified by wicked men, Jesus the Christ of God. His throne is coming, His judgment is near, and on that day when He judges; everyone will recognize His right to judge, because He is judging the very thing He has made. There’s something that

you must understand about God the Father, His Son is everything to Him. Everything the Father has ever done, He has done it for His Son. He created the world through His Son, He reveals Himself to the world through His Son, He redeems the world through His Son, and He judges the world through His Son. Christ is foremost in every part of God and Christ is foremost in the thoughts of every being that finds it’s dwelling place in Heaven. When Jesus Christ returns, He will stretch forth His hand upon the world and He will say Mine Mine Mine Mine Mine. It was made by Me and it was made for Me, and seated upon His throne God Himself will see to it that every knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!!! And on that day you will know what is truly real, and the Word of God will be vindicated and some of you will rejoice in that, but others of you will realize that you've lived for a wrong thing and you have lost all things. 

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4 minutes ago, Markinsa said:

 

I did not call you a name, I just provided a verse out of the Bible.  You know God's Word.  That's what God says, if you don't want to believe that, that is your choice.  That is what God has given all of us, choice.   If you feel like you don't need him, he won't force you to believe in him.  But know this, all those that choose to follow their own ways will not be forced to be with Him for eternity.  You figure out the rest. 

 

And why do you get irritated?  is it a reminder that you know better?  And why would I stick my neck out for you to get it bitten off because you didn't like what I said?  I'm not better than you, probably far from it.  My only redeeming quality is that God created me and loves me, and has saved me through the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ. 

 

And as far as being a good person:

 

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him.

 

 

 

.

Don't act so like you didn't mean to imply I'm a fool. If you don't believe in what you  wrote then what is the sense of posting it? If you know I'm not a believer what need was there to post that except to imply I'm a fool? I don't believe in God so how can I know his word?

I get irritated when people quote scripture to those who don't because it makes me believe you are not listening.  I don't believe in what the scripture says. I'm not a believer. Nothing more and nothing less . It's great that you do. If it makes you happy and guides you through life, that is truly a wonderful thing.  

 

I hope  you understand that quoting scripture to non believer is like saying to a believer that the devil is good but just misunderstood. After all, he was an angel at one time. 

It doesn't make sense and accomplishes nothing. 

 

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For those without faith, using the Bible or faith to validate itself is circular reasoning.  

 

Just a few things to look into and reasearch on your own-

 

 

 

 

 

-The Bible has a unified message.

 The Bible contains 66 books, written by about 40 authors, over 1500 years, on three different continents, in three different languages and yet has unity on multiple controversial subjects. 

 

-The Bible has accurate transmission.

The Bible has been copied over and over and over again with unrivaled care and accuracy.  There is more evidence for the accuracy of the Bible than any other ancient document.  No other book even comes close. 

 

-The Bible has reliable history.

The Bible is an accurate book of recorded history.  No archeological discovery has EVER controverted a biblical reference.  The Bible is supported by history and continues to be supported with new historical discoveries.

 

-The Bible has accurate, detailed, fulfilled prophecy.

.  Prophecy is probably the strongest reason to believe the Bible is in fact the word of God.  Roughly, ¼ of the Bible is prophetic.  The numbers and odds associated with biblical prophecy are overwhelming, ridiculous, and unmistakable. God uses it as His calling card.  He stacks it with layers of details and impossible odds.

God uses compound probability.  The more layers and details involved increase the odds exponentially.  There are over 300 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus.  Over 300! That is a ton.  We will start small.

How about 8?  8 fulfilled prophecies.  Does that sound impressive?  What do the numbers say?  For one person to fulfill 8 prophecies the odds come out to 1 in 10 to the seventeenth power.  That’s a 1 with 17 zeros after it! 

 

I reference the next part from a messege by Skip Heitzig (Calvary Albuquerque)  He quotes Peter Stoner

To help put it in prospective here is an example from thedailyhatch.org about mathematics professor Peter Stoner.

For years I have been quoting a book by Peter Stoner called Science Speaks. I like to use a remarkable illustration from it to show how Bible prophecy proves that Jesus was truly God in the flesh.

Peter Stoner calculated the probability of just 8 Messianic prophecies being fulfilled in the life of Jesus. As you read through these prophecies, you will see that all estimates were calculated as conservatively as possible.

1.       The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).  The average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah to the present (1958) divided by the average population of the earth during the same period = 7,150/2,000,000,000 or 2.8×105.

2.       A messenger will prepare the way for the Messiah (Malachi 3:1).  One man in how many, the world over, has had a forerunner (in this case, John the Baptist) to prepare his way?  Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.

3.       The Messiah will enter Jerusalem as a king riding on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9).  One man in how many, who has entered Jerusalem as a ruler, has entered riding on a donkey?  Estimate: 1 in 100 or 1×102.

4.       The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend and suffer wounds in His hands (Zechariah 13:6).  One man in how many, the world over, has been betrayed by a friend, resulting in wounds in his hands?  Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.

5.       The Messiah will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12).  Of the people who have been betrayed, one in how many has been betrayed for exactly 30 pieces of silver?  Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.

6.       The betrayal money will be used to purchase a potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13).  One man in how many, after receiving a bribe for the betrayal of a friend, has returned the money, had it refused, and then experienced it being used to buy a potter’s field?  Estimate: 1 in 100,000 or 1×105.

7.       The Messiah will remain silent while He is afflicted (Isaiah 53:7).  One man in how many, when he is oppressed and afflicted, though innocent, will make no defense of himself?  Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.

8.       The Messiah will die by having His hands and feet pierced (Psalm 22:16).  One man in how many, since the time of David, has been crucified?  Estimate: 1 in 10,000 or 1×104.

Multiplying all these probabilities together produces a number (rounded off) of 1×1028. Dividing this number by an estimate of the number of people who have lived since the time of these prophecies (88 billion) produces a probability of all 8 prophecies being fulfilled accidently in the life of one person. That probability is 1in 1017 or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. That’s one in one hundred quadrillion!

This might put it in an easier mental picture-

I love the way Stoner illustrated the meaning of this number. He asked the reader to imagine filling the State of Texas knee deep in silver dollars. Include in this huge number one silver dollar with a black check mark on it. Then, turn a blindfolded person loose in this sea of silver dollars. The odds that the first coin he would pick up would be the one with the black check mark are the same as 8 prophecies being fulfilled accidentally in the life of Jesus.

The point, of course, is that when people say that the fulfillment of prophecy in the life of Jesus was accidental, they do not know what they are talking about. Keep in mind that Jesus did not just fulfill 8 prophecies.  The chances of fulfilling 16 is 1 in 10x45. When you get to a total of 48, the odds increase to 1 in 10x157. Accidental fulfillment of these prophecies is simply beyond the realm of possibility.   - thedailyhatch.org

God’s prophecy is so precise, complete and complex that it leaves no doubt of God’s authorship of the Bible and it’s authority. 

For a quick list of some prophecies Jesus fulfilled- www.about-jesus.org/complete-chart-prophecies-jesus.htm

  Here is a message about the numbers-  www.calvaryabq.org/teaching_player.asp?ServiceID=4141&q=audio

 

 

-The Bible's message of salvation is different from any other book.

     In every other religious system outside of Christ the path to eternal life depends on how good you are, how many rules you follow, or what you did to earn your salvation…  everything stems off of what man can do to get to heaven or wherever that religion says you will end up.

 Only Christianity states that everyone is condemned.   We are born DOA.  We are separated from God because of our sin.  There is nothing we can do to attain salvation.  We can never work hard enough to earn salvation.  We can never be good enough to gain salvation.   There is only one way to salvation and that is through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

One more thing to think about- Christianity is based on the resurection of Jesus Christ.  If His resurection is a lie, nothing else the Bible has to say has any merit.

Research for yourself... prove or disprove Jesus resurection

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

Friend,

 

I'm not here tonight to talk about men,

or to talk about church or religion, for

all those things have their failures and

flaws; every one can stand up and make accusations against these things. Mankind is weak and sinful, religion is sometimes weak and failing; but Christ, there is no one like Christ. He’s the King of kings and the Lord of lords. He’s the Son of God, He is infinite perfection, He is strong, He is mighty, He has never failed, and He has fulfilled every promise He has ever made! You have no arguments against Him, for there is no one like Him. He and He alone is the Savior of the world, and the Christ of God! So it's all about Christ!!! What do you think of Him?!?For that is the very basis of God's judgment of men. While it is true that one day you will stand before God and be judged with regard to your sin, you must understand that the greatest question on that day will be this. What think ye of Jesus Christ? What have you done with Christ?

 

Jesus Christ created you and in that, He has a claim upon you. He is your maker and by virtue of that He is also your possessor, your owner, and not only does He take ownership but He is also Lord! You say I do not see that, I’m an atheist, where is His throne! Know this, that God has appointed a day in which He will judge every man through this One whom was crucified by wicked men, Jesus the Christ of God. His throne is coming, His judgment is near, and on that day when He judges; everyone will recognize His right to judge, because He is judging the very thing He has made. There’s something that

you must understand about God the Father, His Son is everything to Him. Everything the Father has ever done, He has done it for His Son. He created the world through His Son, He reveals Himself to the world through His Son, He redeems the world through His Son, and He judges the world through His Son. Christ is foremost in every part of God and Christ is foremost in the thoughts of every being that finds it’s dwelling place in Heaven. When Jesus Christ returns, He will stretch forth His hand upon the world and He will say Mine Mine Mine Mine Mine. It was made by Me and it was made for Me, and seated upon His throne God Himself will see to it that every knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!!! And on that day you will know what is truly real, and the Word of God will be vindicated and some of you will rejoice in that, but others of you will realize that you've lived for a wrong thing and you have lost all 

You  can imply he created me all you want. It makes it true in your eyes only. I can respect that as it has no bearing or affect on my beliefs,  or lack there of.  

 

See how that works? 

 

But tell me. Why do you believe? 

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11 minutes ago, outlawclg said:

For those without faith, using the Bible or faith to validate itself is circular reasoning.  

 

Just a few things to look into and reasearch on your own-

 

 

 

 

 

-The Bible has a unified message.

 The Bible contains 66 books, written by about 40 authors, over 1500 years, on three different continents, in three different languages and yet has unity on multiple controversial subjects. 

 

-The Bible has accurate transmission.

The Bible has been copied over and over and over again with unrivaled care and accuracy.  There is more evidence for the accuracy of the Bible than any other ancient document.  No other book even comes close. 

 

-The Bible has reliable history.

The Bible is an accurate book of recorded history.  No archeological discovery has EVER controverted a biblical reference.  The Bible is supported by history and continues to be supported with new historical discoveries.

 

-The Bible has accurate, detailed, fulfilled prophecy.

.  Prophecy is probably the strongest reason to believe the Bible is in fact the word of God.  Roughly, ¼ of the Bible is prophetic.  The numbers and odds associated with biblical prophecy are overwhelming, ridiculous, and unmistakable. God uses it as His calling card.  He stacks it with layers of details and impossible odds.

God uses compound probability.  The more layers and details involved increase the odds exponentially.  There are over 300 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus.  Over 300! That is a ton.  We will start small.

How about 8?  8 fulfilled prophecies.  Does that sound impressive?  What do the numbers say?  For one person to fulfill 8 prophecies the odds come out to 1 in 10 to the seventeenth power.  That’s a 1 with 17 zeros after it! 

 

I reference the next part from a messege by Skip Heitzig (Calvary Albuquerque)  He quotes Peter Stoner

To help put it in prospective here is an example from thedailyhatch.org about mathematics professor Peter Stoner.

For years I have been quoting a book by Peter Stoner called Science Speaks. I like to use a remarkable illustration from it to show how Bible prophecy proves that Jesus was truly God in the flesh.

Peter Stoner calculated the probability of just 8 Messianic prophecies being fulfilled in the life of Jesus. As you read through these prophecies, you will see that all estimates were calculated as conservatively as possible.

1.       The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).  The average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah to the present (1958) divided by the average population of the earth during the same period = 7,150/2,000,000,000 or 2.8×105.

2.       A messenger will prepare the way for the Messiah (Malachi 3:1).  One man in how many, the world over, has had a forerunner (in this case, John the Baptist) to prepare his way?  Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.

3.       The Messiah will enter Jerusalem as a king riding on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9).  One man in how many, who has entered Jerusalem as a ruler, has entered riding on a donkey?  Estimate: 1 in 100 or 1×102.

4.       The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend and suffer wounds in His hands (Zechariah 13:6).  One man in how many, the world over, has been betrayed by a friend, resulting in wounds in his hands?  Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.

5.       The Messiah will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12).  Of the people who have been betrayed, one in how many has been betrayed for exactly 30 pieces of silver?  Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.

6.       The betrayal money will be used to purchase a potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13).  One man in how many, after receiving a bribe for the betrayal of a friend, has returned the money, had it refused, and then experienced it being used to buy a potter’s field?  Estimate: 1 in 100,000 or 1×105.

7.       The Messiah will remain silent while He is afflicted (Isaiah 53:7).  One man in how many, when he is oppressed and afflicted, though innocent, will make no defense of himself?  Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.

8.       The Messiah will die by having His hands and feet pierced (Psalm 22:16).  One man in how many, since the time of David, has been crucified?  Estimate: 1 in 10,000 or 1×104.

Multiplying all these probabilities together produces a number (rounded off) of 1×1028. Dividing this number by an estimate of the number of people who have lived since the time of these prophecies (88 billion) produces a probability of all 8 prophecies being fulfilled accidently in the life of one person. That probability is 1in 1017 or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. That’s one in one hundred quadrillion!

This might put it in an easier mental picture-

I love the way Stoner illustrated the meaning of this number. He asked the reader to imagine filling the State of Texas knee deep in silver dollars. Include in this huge number one silver dollar with a black check mark on it. Then, turn a blindfolded person loose in this sea of silver dollars. The odds that the first coin he would pick up would be the one with the black check mark are the same as 8 prophecies being fulfilled accidentally in the life of Jesus.

The point, of course, is that when people say that the fulfillment of prophecy in the life of Jesus was accidental, they do not know what they are talking about. Keep in mind that Jesus did not just fulfill 8 prophecies.  The chances of fulfilling 16 is 1 in 10x45. When you get to a total of 48, the odds increase to 1 in 10x157. Accidental fulfillment of these prophecies is simply beyond the realm of possibility.   - thedailyhatch.org

God’s prophecy is so precise, complete and complex that it leaves no doubt of God’s authorship of the Bible and it’s authority. 

For a quick list of some prophecies Jesus fulfilled- www.about-jesus.org/complete-chart-prophecies-jesus.htm

  Here is a message about the numbers-  www.calvaryabq.org/teaching_player.asp?ServiceID=4141&q=audio

 

 

-The Bible's message of salvation is different from any other book.

     In every other religious system outside of Christ the path to eternal life depends on how good you are, how many rules you follow, or what you did to earn your salvation…  everything stems off of what man can do to get to heaven or wherever that religion says you will end up.

 Only Christianity states that everyone is condemned.   We are born DOA.  We are separated from God because of our sin.  There is nothing we can do to attain salvation.  We can never work hard enough to earn salvation.  We can never be good enough to gain salvation.   There is only one way to salvation and that is through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

One more thing to think about- Christianity is based on the resurection of Jesus Christ.  If His resurection is a lie, nothing else the Bible has to say has any merit.

Research for yourself... prove or disprove Jesus resurection

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like a narcissistic God. We were created to believe in him or suffer for all eternity. Greek gods needed to be believed in to survive.  If the believing stopped they would create a catastrophe to make people believe again.  So they say. 

 

Not going to lie. Your post was very long and I just skimmed it. I could be talking  out my arse.

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Did you ever stop to think that animals kill mostly just for food. Only go to war to protect territories and family (pack) members. Are very rarely monogamous and live a very basic existence. 

 

Gluttony and desecration of their environment is not a top priority in their life.  Domination and complete destruction of different species is not a goal they aspire to have.

 

I'm not suggesting we live like animals and stop trying to improve our lives.

 

For all our knowledge  and abilities you would think we would be better to each other and our world. But the more we know, the better we become at finding ways to destroy each other and our resources. 

 

Don't  get me wrong. I think the average person  the world over, are probably  good and decent. I've been to Iraq and Aghanistan and seen the average person. Even at their lowest point in their life they wanted to be portrayed as good. I believe it is the few in high places, with unlimited resources and power that are evil and seek to divide by any means necessary.  It just seems that race, religion and political affiliation are favorite issues to cause division and hatred towards each others.

Discussion of any of these issues seems to raise hackles and put people on the defense therefore eliminating any chance of a civil discussion. 

JMO

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18 minutes ago, cranman said:

You  can imply he created me all you want. It makes it true in your eyes only. I can respect that as it has no bearing or affect on my beliefs,  or lack there of.  

 

See how that works? 

 

But tell me. Why do you believe? 


 

Friend,


You have stated multiple things tonight, that contradict other statements that you have made. Things happen when conversation is over text and not face to face. Understandable. But just because you were “confirmed” which not being rude, doesn’t mean anything, and having been baptized, which again, in and of itself doesn’t mean anything, and attended CCD and was an alter boy for 4 years, doesn’t mean anything.

1 hour ago, cranman said:

I have been confirmed,  baptized,  attended CCD and was an alter boy for 4 years. I just don't believe.

It does lay down a premise, that you would know some Scripture; and obviously you do. Because you have quoted Scripture tonight, which in turn is quoting God Himself. 

1 hour ago, cranman said:

Do unto others as you would have done to you .

Matthew 7:12

 

Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

 

 

What I have to say doesn’t mean anything. God and His Word alone carry the weight of truth and knowledge. I don’t have to imply anything, but the one thing I do have to do - is to declare the truth of God and proclaim the good news of the gospel of Christ. 

 

My story is long and absolutely would love to share it with you. But to make it a bit shorter I will say this. God loved a weak and pathetic worm of man like me. 17 years ago I heard the gospel of Gods grace and kindness and love that He has for the wicked. I believed upon His faithfulness in His Son Jesus. The Messiah of Israel. That Christ Jesus lived the life that I could never live, and loved God the way that I could never love Him apart from Christ living in me and through me. On the day that I believed, I became a new creation and have been madly in love with Jesus ever since. 

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The only reason I stated I have been baptized,  confirmed,  attended CCD and was an alter boy was to explain that I have been exposed to the catholic faith. My parents did the right thing and ensured I was exposed to make a choice. Nothing  more and nothing less. I just thought about it and made a personal decision.  I quoted scripture for 2 reasons. One, to show I'm not ignorant of the bible's teachings and secondly that one should not imply ( call)  that someone is a fool just because they are not a believer. It wouldn't be nice if I called someone a fool for being a believer. The fact that they believe has no affect on the way I live my life.  Just as me be being a non believer has no affect on the way you live your life.

 

I am truly glad you found salvation by accepting God and his son into your life. I hope you have nothing but peace and love in your life. 

 

Just don't look down on us who do not believe. We still live our lives like you. We are decent people who respect others. We just dont believe.  Simple as that.

 

Your words carry great weight. As I have said before, I like to discuss ( not argue) religion.  So by all means, carry on and say what you want to say about you beliefs and experiences. 

 

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9 hours ago, cranman said:

Don't act so like you didn't mean to imply I'm a fool. If you don't believe in what you  wrote then what is the sense of posting it? If you know I'm not a believer what need was there to post that except to imply I'm a fool? I don't believe in God so how can I know his word?

 

Romans 1:18-21

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.

 

.

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49 minutes ago, Markinsa said:

 

Romans 1:18-21

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.

 

.

And? 

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11 hours ago, cranman said:

Stating someone's destiny is God's will is suggesting that the person has no free will and that their destiny has been pre ordained.  If that is the case then who has free will to live their life as they see fit? Or are you saying God has judged this person and is manipulating the  persons actions.? 

 

Again, I like to debate( not argue) religion.

 

 

Interesting point, my Friend...I'd say definitely worth a healthy, respectful and civile debate ( given the will to do just that)

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16 minutes ago, cranman said:

And? 

 

Romans 1:22-25

 

22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

 

.

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Cranman...To me you make great points for which I thank you...I must admit they all do make sense to me....I do appreciate your intellectual honesty and sincerity in what you are stating...It's not something one could take for granted in these times ( in any time really)..It's still difficult to face these delicate, somehow untouchable  themes ...There's a sort of taboo still....Undeniably so

 

I do thank all the other posters as well of course for their contribution

 

Best

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30 minutes ago, cranman said:

And? 

 

Hi cranman :)

 

Just some of my thoughts, speaking for myself with my own experience.

 

Just know that you are not alone in your thinking. I have a lot of experience in religious matters,
watched for years how the system operates, and the manipulation within it.

 

When I was active in the church, it was labeled as "full gospel" which I always thought was funny, mainly because I thought as opposed to what? Half gospel? Anyway, after about 2 years within, as a young man easily influenced at the time, I began to question what was being taught...too many things no longer made sense.

 

Strange thing is, I ended up being viewed as a heretic because I dared to question their narrative. They had nothing of substance to answer my questions, other than guilt, threats, the usual responses I still get today when questioning what some claim is "truth", yet are unable to provide one shred of evidence for their claims.

 

So, the last resort is always making threats...using the letter of the law, to try and discredit you and to inform you that their god who they claim "loves you", will torment you and punish you in endless fashion because you did not submit. And some think this is "justice", when it is actually vexatious and unjust, punishment is for corrective purposes, never a 'state of being'.

 

Does that sound like love to you? Would anyone treat their children like that? Of course not, but when it comes to religion, the angry wrathful god narrative has had great results in manipulating people, scaring them into submission. It started when societies became too large to manage so in order to gain more control, certain religious claims were created and the angry wrathful gods entered the picture.

 

I could tell you stories of how some that I knew ended up in institutions because they fell over the edge, struggling to make sense of what their heads were filled with, they lived in constant fear and guilt, and it finally took its toll. Tragic, because it is so needless but it is how some people interpret what they are taught, and some teachings when mixed with certain personalities can be destructive.

 

On the other hand, I have met christians that do not play the mind games, they love their god, they never condemn anyone, nor judge their neighbors, they treat others kindly and do not threaten them using their bibles if someone disagrees with their beliefs. And sadly, many of those people a re labeled as being "luke warm" and they will end up "burning". Sounds mice right?

 

But I found those so called luke warm people to be  balanced, and good decent even gracious people, but that is a minority. Some simply cannot entertain anything or any thought outside of their comfort zones whether it is politics or religion. Both take belief, both are extremely divisive and both encourage what is called 'cognitive dissonance', an inability to listen to anything that challenges their beliefs.

 

I was in that frame of mind for many years, until I learned and began to understand how the system operates. I could not entertain any thought that challenged my beliefs. Daring to question is a good thing, always, I encourage everyone to question everything. But some things people are afraid to question, they live in constant fear and over the long term, begin to do things to appease the god of their beliefs. For me, that was a life I could no longer live as it actually sucked the life out of me over time, counter productive to what "love" is.

 

That leads to, in some cases, delusion and mental break down, as it usually ends up in a cycle they are unable to break. Most cultures have their religious traditions, some follow them, others do not, for various reasons, and if a person is born into a certain culture, it is normal for them to accept those traditions and rarely do they question them. Religious competition is very real and the lengths some go to push it can be destructive.

 

Keep being a decent person, that IS the real message, loving your neighbor as yourself which apparently no one has ever been able to commit to that, the simplicity of something that requires humility and common decency, and has nothing to do with what or who your neighbor believes in, you treat them as you desire to be treated. Anything added to that is "noise" and there is a lot of noise out there.

 

Usually the message ends up being in reality, "just believe like me and we can get along". Never fall for that.

 

I hope your thread does not end up being just a bunch of quotes and threats, but based upon other times when someone wanted discussion of these matters, it always ends up divisive. Best not to argue about something that cannot be proven.

 

Thanks for your input and thoughts. Sad to think the 100's of millions of people murdered because of religion, forced conversions, being treated like savages, such as when the pilgrims first came to this country, how they treated the native Americans, which most never talk about. They viewed them as 'savages' and decided they must convert them...or kill them. you know, that religion of "peace" thing.

 

I think within much of religion is the usual power struggle, and twisted men who use it to achieve an agenda and gain control over others. Been this way for 10's of thousands of years, with little changing along the way.

 

What remains at the end is how we view and treat others. Many believe they need religion in order to be a decent person but if that is the case, what they are actually doing is trying to appease their gods, and they have a much deeper problem than just needing a religion to hide behind.

 

Love is a real force, it is not tied to any religion, because if you need to make threats in order to get people to follow something, it becomes quite clear it was created by men in order to control your mind.

 

We are told that "god is love"...that begs the question what are some people following? I have had some people tell me that "love does not work, we must fight". Apparently they were lied to or feel frustrated, so the last resort is to fight.

 

That answers the question rather sufficiently. Some of these are the same people that condemn other faiths that kill others in the names of their gods, they justify their actions for which there is no justification.

 

I never try and demean others faith, but I will ask questions and how they react tells a story to me.

 

I have experienced the struggle I often see in them, and the best I can do is encourage them to question those things that insult their own hearts and reject them. It has been said, if someone can get you to believe absurdities, they can also get you to commit atrocities.

 

Sadly, history tells us the same story...and also the fact that believing in a cruel god also creates a cruel man.

 

Thomas Paine and others have much wisdom that they learned about these things...

 

Have a good weekend!

 

Thomas Paine Quotes On God. QuotesGram

 

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40 minutes ago, Markinsa said:

 

Romans 1:22-25

 

22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

 

.

Tell my why you are a believer? Why do you believe what man has written? I know the bible was written by men who God spoke to. We can start there.

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25 minutes ago, Jim1cor13 said:

 

Hi cranman :)

 

Just some of my thoughts, speaking for myself with my own experience.

 

Just know that you are not alone in your thinking. I have a lot of experience in religious matters,
watched for years how the system operates, and the manipulation within it.

 

When I was active in the church, it was labeled as "full gospel" which I always thought was funny, mainly because I thought as opposed to what? Half gospel? Anyway, after about 2 years within, as a young man easily influenced at the time, I began to question what was being taught...too many things no longer made sense.

 

Strange thing is, I ended up being viewed as a heretic because I dared to question their narrative. They had nothing of substance to answer my questions, other than guilt, threats, the usual responses I still get today when questioning what some claim is "truth", yet are unable to provide one shred of evidence for their claims.

 

So, the last resort is always making threats...using the letter of the law, to try and discredit you and to inform you that their god who they claim "loves you", will torment you and punish you in endless fashion because you did not submit. And some think this is "justice", when it is actually vexatious and unjust, punishment is for corrective purposes, never a 'state of being'.

 

Does that sound like love to you? Would anyone treat their children like that? Of course not, but when it comes to religion, the angry wrathful god narrative has had great results in manipulating people, scaring them into submission. It started when societies became too large to manage so in order to gain more control, certain religious claims were created and the angry wrathful gods entered the picture.

 

I could tell you stories of how some that I knew ended up in institutions because they fell over the edge, struggling to make sense of what their heads were filled with, they lived in constant fear and guilt, and it finally took its toll. Tragic, because it is so needless but it is how some people interpret what they are taught, and some teachings when mixed with certain personalities can be destructive.

 

On the other hand, I have met christians that do not play the mind games, they love their god, they never condemn anyone, nor judge their neighbors, they treat others kindly and do not threaten them using their bibles if someone disagrees with their beliefs. And sadly, many of those people a re labeled as being "luke warm" and they will end up "burning". Sounds mice right?

 

But I found those so called luke warm people to be  balanced, and good decent even gracious people, but that is a minority. Some simply cannot entertain anything or any thought outside of their comfort zones whether it is politics or religion. Both take belief, both are extremely divisive and both encourage what is called 'cognitive dissonance', an inability to listen to anything that challenges their beliefs.

 

I was in that frame of mind for many years, until I learned and began to understand how the system operates. I could not entertain any thought that challenged my beliefs. Daring to question is a good thing, always, I encourage everyone to question everything. But some things people are afraid to question, they live in constant fear and over the long term, begin to do things to appease the god of their beliefs. For me, that was a life I could no longer live as it actually sucked the life out of me over time, counter productive to what "love" is.

 

That leads to, in some cases, delusion and mental break down, as it usually ends up in a cycle they are unable to break. Most cultures have their religious traditions, some follow them, others do not, for various reasons, and if a person is born into a certain culture, it is normal for them to accept those traditions and rarely do they question them. Religious competition is very real and the lengths some go to push it can be destructive.

 

Keep being a decent person, that IS the real message, loving your neighbor as yourself which apparently no one has ever been able to commit to that, the simplicity of something that requires humility and common decency, and has nothing to do with what or who your neighbor believes in, you treat them as you desire to be treated. Anything added to that is "noise" and there is a lot of noise out there.

 

Usually the message ends up being in reality, "just believe like me and we can get along". Never fall for that.

 

I hope your thread does not end up being just a bunch of quotes and threats, but based upon other times when someone wanted discussion of these matters, it always ends up divisive. Best not to argue about something that cannot be proven.

 

Thanks for your input and thoughts. Sad to think the 100's of millions of people murdered because of religion, forced conversions, being treated like savages, such as when the pilgrims first came to this country, how they treated the native Americans, which most never talk about. They viewed them as 'savages' and decided they must convert them...or kill them. you know, that religion of "peace" thing.

 

I think within much of religion is the usual power struggle, and twisted men who use it to achieve an agenda and gain control over others. Been this way for 10's of thousands of years, with little changing along the way.

 

What remains at the end is how we view and treat others. Many believe they need religion in order to be a decent person but if that is the case, what they are actually doing is trying to appease their gods, and they have a much deeper problem than just needing a religion to hide behind.

 

Love is a real force, it is not tied to any religion, because if you need to make threats in order to get people to follow something, it becomes quite clear it was created by men in order to control your mind.

 

We are told that "god is love"...that begs the question what are some people following? I have had some people tell me that "love does not work, we must fight". Apparently they were lied to or feel frustrated, so the last resort is to fight.

 

That answers the question rather sufficiently. Some of these are the same people that condemn other faiths that kill others in the names of their gods, they justify their actions for which there is no justification.

 

I never try and demean others faith, but I will ask questions and how they react tells a story to me.

 

I have experienced the struggle I often see in them, and the best I can do is encourage them to question those things that insult their own hearts and reject them. It has been said, if someone can get you to believe absurdities, they can also get you to commit atrocities.

 

Sadly, history tells us the same story...and also the fact that believing in a cruel god also creates a cruel man.

 

Thomas Paine and others have much wisdom that they learned about these things...

 

Have a good weekend!

 

Thomas Paine Quotes On God. QuotesGram

 

Are you my long lost brother? Lol. You said exactly everything I feel and believe.  I have many friends who believe in God,  in different  denominations, and are great people.  They indulge me in my discussions  and often times go away having more belief in their faith while at the same time respecting my beliefs. 

I never try to change anyone's mind.  I just want to be decent towards others and have them treat me the same.   

 

Thank you for participation. 

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Just now, cranman said:

Tell my why you are a believer? Why do you believe what man has written? I know the bible was written by men who God spoke to. We can start there.

 

In no particular order:

 

DNA - Destroys the theory of evolution

Evidence outside the Bible that proves what is in the Bible.  

1.  Evidence of the Red Sea Crossing

2. Evidence of Noah's Arc

3. The Crucifixtion of Jesus directly over the Arc of the Covenant allowing Jesus's blood to fall on the Mercy Seat.

4. The deliverance of people from drug addiction overnight when accepting Jesus

5. The complete impossibility of the existence of human life/life in general on this Planet without a creator.

 

Fulfillment of Prophecy in the Bible.

 

The cyclical nature of what happens in the bible, repeating itself in what is happening now. 

 

 

 

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