Guest views are now limited to 12 pages. If you get an "Error" message, just sign in! If you need to create an account, click here.

Jump to content
  • CRYPTO REWARDS!

    Full endorsement on this opportunity - but it's limited, so get in while you can!

George Floyd Death (Police Brutality?)


Indraman
 Share

Recommended Posts

Outrage at video showing child who was maced by police at Seattle protest

 

Protester who filmed the aftermath says he was arrested and spent two days in jail for what some are calling police retribution

 

Hallie Golden in Seattle

Mon 15 Jun 2020 16.52 BST

 

 

Vid

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/15/outrage-video-police-mace-child-seattle-protest

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Starrider said:

I’m sick of COVID-19. I’m sick of black vs. white. I’m sick of Democrats vs. Republicans. I’m sick of *** vs. straight. I’m sick of Christians vs atheists. I’m REALLY sick of the media. I’m sick of no one being allowed to think what they want & feel what they do without offending someone. I am sick of the nosey people who call the cops when anyone does anything they don’t approve of. I am sick of blaming the whole for the sins of a few.
We’re one race—the human race. You want to support system" rel="">support President Trump? You do you. It’s your choice. You want to support system" rel="">support Biden? Fine... also your choice! You want to believe in God? Okay, believe in God. You want to believe in magical creatures that fly around & sprinkle fairy dust to make life better? Awesome... you do you.
BUT stop thrusting your beliefs on others & not being able to deal with the fact that they don’t have the same exact mind-set as you. Having our own minds is what makes us all individual and beautiful. If you can’t handle the fact that you may have a friend that has opposing views as you, then you are not any better than the bigots and the racists. I don’t have to agree with everything you believe to be a decent human being & your friend.

 

 

Starr

Hope this helps,  Lord knows I'm as sick as you 🤑

 

 

resize.webp

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Starrider said:

I’m sick of COVID-19. I’m sick of black vs. white. I’m sick of Democrats vs. Republicans. I’m sick of *** vs. straight. I’m sick of Christians vs atheists. I’m REALLY sick of the media. I’m sick of no one being allowed to think what they want & feel what they do without offending someone. I am sick of the nosey people who call the cops when anyone does anything they don’t approve of. I am sick of blaming the whole for the sins of a few.
We’re one race—the human race. You want to support system">support President Trump? You do you. It’s your choice. You want to support system">support Biden? Fine... also your choice! You want to believe in God? Okay, believe in God. You want to believe in magical creatures that fly around & sprinkle fairy dust to make life better? Awesome... you do you.
BUT stop thrusting your beliefs on others & not being able to deal with the fact that they don’t have the same exact mind-set as you. Having our own minds is what makes us all individual and beautiful. If you can’t handle the fact that you may have a friend that has opposing views as you, then you are not any better than the bigots and the racists. I don’t have to agree with everything you believe to be a decent human being & your friend.

 

 

Starr

 

Bravo to you @Starrider

 

Excellent post. Unfortunately, some feel the need to pursue conflict and division, insisting upon being "right" rather than learning to work together and cooperate with those that may differ with their views.

 

I've said it many times, politics and religion are the two most divisive tools throughout history to this day, and if we continue down the path of allowing their influence to divide and distract us, to keep us fighting against each other, we will ALL lose.

 

Hopefully someday, we will wake up and realize how very important your message is and live accordingly. We have as humans wasted far too much time on the things that divide us, instead of unite us. Indeed, the only thing that matters is we better learn to treat each other as we desire to be treated, and if some think a religious belief is necessary to actually accomplish that, then they have a much deeper problem then they realize.

 

Imagine what could be accomplished for good if we could unite without all the labels and baggage, and learned to agree to disagree, without allowing ourselves to view each other as some manner of enemy?

 

Thank you very much for what you posted...very refreshing. 🎖️

Edited by Jim1cor13
  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Starrider said:

You want to believe in magical creatures that fly around & sprinkle fairy dust to make life better? Awesome...

 

Excellent post Starr.  We shouldn’t even need to have this conversation in America where everyone is supposed to have Freedom of Speech.  There sure seems to be a lot of censorship these days.  

 

I hope you don’t get too mad at me for expressing my belief in sprinkling a little fairy dust into the conversation.  😂 😆 

 

 

0D375BF4-8E63-488A-BACC-BCFDB852F19F.gif.5de9311e04332d6d4c3924084051b18a.gif

 

  • Haha 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Pitcher said:

 

Excellent post Starr.  We shouldn’t even need to have this conversation in America where everyone is supposed to have Freedom of Speech.  There sure seems to be a lot of censorship these days.  

 

I hope you don’t get too mad at me for expressing my belief in sprinkling a little fairy dust into the conversation.  😂 😆 

 

 

0D375BF4-8E63-488A-BACC-BCFDB852F19F.gif.5de9311e04332d6d4c3924084051b18a.gif

 

 

 

That fits you well Pitcher!  :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Thanks for the laugh!

  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Starrider said:

I’m sick of COVID-19. I’m sick of black vs. white. I’m sick of Democrats vs. Republicans. I’m sick of *** vs. straight. I’m sick of Christians vs atheists. I’m REALLY sick of the media. I’m sick of no one being allowed to think what they want & feel what they do without offending someone. I am sick of the nosey people who call the cops when anyone does anything they don’t approve of. I am sick of blaming the whole for the sins of a few.
We’re one race—the human race. You want to support system" rel="">support President Trump? You do you. It’s your choice. You want to support system" rel="">support Biden? Fine... also your choice! You want to believe in God? Okay, believe in God. You want to believe in magical creatures that fly around & sprinkle fairy dust to make life better? Awesome... you do you.
BUT stop thrusting your beliefs on others & not being able to deal with the fact that they don’t have the same exact mind-set as you. Having our own minds is what makes us all individual and beautiful. If you can’t handle the fact that you may have a friend that has opposing views as you, then you are not any better than the bigots and the racists. I don’t have to agree with everything you believe to be a decent human being & your friend.

 

 

Starr

 

Well said, Starr.  I'm absolutely guilty of all your rant mentions.  My intentions seldom end well when speaking my mind on this board.  Thanks for keeping it real.

 

GO RV, then BV 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, bigwave said:

Well I'm sick too.

 

How about getting rid of good ol' fashion American icons:

 

Uncle Ben

uncle-bens-content-2020.jpg

and 

Aunt Jemima 

Photo: Midland, Tx Woman Dressed As Aunt Jemima For Halloween, Blackface and All | The Official ...

 

People better start getting a clue.....

 

 

 

Bigwave it was announced earlier today that they are planning to rename Aunt Jemima and lose the logo completely.......I am sure Uncle Ben is not far behind.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/aunt-jemima-brand-will-change-name-remove-image-quaker-says-n1231260?fbclid=IwAR2z9o6k6pOV2RR89nMv7FoqWtDQH9UOmFSAZFSbJIWcByTw6G9isnycbUM

 

Odd thing is Aunt Jemima was a real person, born into slavery, turned into quite the accomplished cook and when they did away with slavery she turned she culinary skills into a business making her one of the 1st Black Female millionaires in History.....Quaker in 1923 started to use the image and name after buying the rights  then the SJW/BLM and Snowflake Rebellion of 2020 came along and  Just like that she is History and the 1st Black Female Millionaire poof is gone.....

 

Are they gonna demand MLK Memorial Be removed or a re they going to do it themselves?

 

Karsten

  • Upvote 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another Side To The George Floyd Death:

 

https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911


 

Why Derek Chauvin May Get Off His Murder Charge

A deeper look at the policies behind the death of George Floyd

Gavrilo David
Gavrilo David
Follow
Jun 11 · 24 min read
 
 
1*5ti98X2J-UYqo021bMlXDA.jpeg?q=20
1*5ti98X2J-UYqo021bMlXDA.jpeg
Pictured: Derek Chauvin (left) and George Floyd

The world has united in protest after a graphic video emerged showing a Black man dying under the restraint of a White police officer. The victim, George Floyd, was in clear distress. He was pinned to the ground by three officers, with one officer — Derek Chauvin — placing a knee on his neck. For over five minutes, he tells the officers that he is unable to breathe. George Floyd died as horrified bystanders told the officers they were killing him.

The video is unquestionably horrific.

But in our rush to condemn an aggressive use of force and pursue justice for George Floyd, we have ignored crucial information which is necessary in judging the conduct of the officers. While nothing can absolve George Floyd’s death, these facts do cast doubt on the appropriateness of a murder charge for Chauvin, and paint a more nuanced picture of the events leading up to the tragic encounter.

There are six crucial pieces of information — six facts — that have been largely omitted from discussion on the Chauvin’s conduct. Taken together, they likely exonerate the officer of a murder charge. Rather than indicating illegal and excessive force, they instead show an officer who rigidly followed the procedures deemed appropriate by the Minneapolis Police Department (MPD). The evidence points to the MPD and the local political establishment, rather than the individual officer, as ultimately responsible for George Floyd’s death.

These six facts are as follows:

  1. George Floyd was experiencing cardiopulmonary and psychological distress minutes before he was placed on the ground, let alone had a knee to his neck.
  2. The Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) allows the use of neck restraint on suspects who actively resist arrest, and George Floyd actively resisted arrest on two occasions, including immediately prior to neck restraint being used.
  3. The officers were recorded on their body cams assessing George Floyd as suffering from “excited delirium syndrome” (ExDS), a condition which the MPD considers an extreme threat to both the officers and the suspect. A white paper used by the MPD acknowledges that ExDS suspects may die irrespective of force involved. The officers’ response to this situation was in line with MPD guidelines for ExDS.
  4. Restraining the suspect on his or her abdomen (prone restraint) is a common tactic in ExDS situations, and the white paper used by the MPD instructs the officers to control the suspect until paramedics arrive.
  5. Floyd’s autopsy revealed a potentially lethal concoction of drugs — not just a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl, but also methamphetamine. Together with his history of drug abuse and two serious heart conditions, Floyd’s condition was exceptionally and unusually fragile.
  6. Chauvin’s neck restraint is unlikely to have exerted a dangerous amount of force to Floyd’s neck. Floyd is shown on video able to lift his head and neck, and a robust study on double-knee restraints showed a median force exertion of approximately approximately 105lbs.

Let’s be clear: the actions of Chauvin and the other officers were absolutely wrong. But they were also in line with MPD rules and procedures for the condition which they determined was George Floyd was suffering from. An act that would normally be considered a clear and heinous abuse of force, such as a knee-to-neck restraint on a suspect suffering from pulmonary distress, can be legitimatized if there are overriding concerns not known to bystanders but known to the officers. In the case of George Floyd, the overriding concern was that he was suffering from ExDS, given a number of relevant facts known to the officers. This was not known to the bystanders, who only saw a man with pulmonary distress pinned down with a knee on his neck. While the officers may still be found guilty of manslaughter, the probability of a guilty verdict for the murder charge is low, and the public should be aware of this well in advance of the verdict.

While we should pursue justice for George Floyd, we should be absolutely sure that we are pursuing justice against his real killers. A careful examination of the evidence points to the procedures and rules of the MPD, rather than the police officers following these procedures and rules, as the real killers of George Floyd. If anyone murdered George Floyd, it was the MPD and the local political establishment. This is why Attorney General Keith Ellison has expressed how difficult a conviction will be.

“Trying this case will not be an easy thing. Winning a conviction will be hard,” Ellison said.

There is still much to the case that remains unknown. As new information emerges, we should adjust our view accordingly. But a close inspection of all current information does not point to a murder charge being appropriate.

1. George Floyd’s symptoms started well before being restrained to the ground

From the original government complaint, we know that he was falling to the ground and claiming he couldn’t breathe while still standing up.

Mr. Floyd stiffened up, fell to the ground, and told the officers he was claustrophobic […] Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still […] While standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe.

From the 911 transcript, we know that George Floyd was acting “drunk” and “not in control of himself” before the police were called. The 911 caller is concerned that such an “awfully drunk” man would attempt to operate a vehicle. This is an important departure from the earlier media reports, which indicated the officers were only called over a counterfeit bill.

“Um someone comes our store and give us fake bills and we realize it before he left the store, and we ran back outside, they was sitting on their car […], and he’s sitting on his car cause he is awfully drunk and he’s not in control of himself” […] He is not acting right […] and [he’s] not acting right so and [he] started to go, drive the car.”

This information on its own is of no significance. In fact, aggressively restraining someone who is experiencing distress only makes that restraint all the more heinous. But as will be seen later, when this information is seen in light of George Floyd’s behavior, it led the officers to suspect he was suffering from ExDS — a far more dangerous scenario than simple distress.

2. The Minneapolis Police Department policy authorizes neck restraint for actively resisting suspects

The Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) recognizes two types of resistance to arrest. There is active resistance, defined as follows:

a response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. A subject engages in active resistance when engaging in physical actions (or verbal behavior reflecting an intention) to make it more difficult for officers to achieve actual physical control.

And passive resistance, defined as follows:

a response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. This is behavior initiated by a subject, when the subject does not comply with verbal or physical control efforts, yet the subject does not attempt to defeat an officer’s control efforts.

Passive resistance is when a suspect is non-compliant in an arrest, but will not act to stop an officer from enacting an arrest. Imagine a child in a supermarket who has a meltdown and drops to the floor — this is passive resistance, as guardian can easily pick up the child. Now imagine a child who not only drops to the floor but pulls against their guardian. This is active resistance.

The MPD allows the use of force in action resistance. Relevantly, the MPD allows neck restraint. It is defined as:

Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints.

There are two types of neck restraint. What we are interested is in conscious neck restraint, defined as:

The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure.

The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting.

We know from the original government complaint that Floyd was actively resisting, because they admit as much:

Mr. Floyd actively resisted being handcuffed.

We also know from the original complaint that he resisted again:

The officers made several attempts to get Mr. Floyd in the backseat of squad 320 from the driver’s side. Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still.

While standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe. The defendant went to the passenger side and tried to get Mr. Floyd into the car from that side and Lane and Kueng assisted.

The defendant pulled Mr. Floyd out of the passenger side of the squad car at 8:19:38 p.m. and Mr. Floyd went to the ground face down and still handcuffed

The three officers were unable to keep him in the police car. The little video evidence we have indicates that there was a struggle. “The defendant pulled Mr. Floyd out of the passenger side of the squad car” likely because they were unable to close the squad car door due to his resistance. A longer video was posted by the popular activist Shaun King which indicates a struggle. Shaun King believes this video shows the officers beating Floyd, however the government (who has access to the body cams) did not write this in their complaint (which they would, as it would help their case).

There appears to be two cases of active resistance, including immediately prior to prone restraint. As such, neck restraint was permissible in order to control George Floyd. Remember that the MPD guideline is to use light to moderate force. An officer placing a knee on a suspect’s neck does not mean he is exerting full force, and there is evidence that light to moderate pressure was used on Floyd. Given that Floyd was saying he couldn’t breathe while resisting being placed in the police car, the officers could not reasonably believe that light to moderate pressure would cause his proclaimed symptoms.

For reasons not yet known, Minneapolis is refusing to release the officers’ body cams of this moment. This information is important in order to determine how Floyd was acting the exact moment the officers pulled him from the police car. It is unconscionable that this information has not been released to the public. We must assume, given all relevant information already known, that their reason for pulling him out of the car was his continued resistance as noted in the government complaint.

(Note: the original page for the MPD detailing use of force has been wiped. Here is an archive hosted by — for some reason — the San Francisco police department. And here is an archive of the archive, just in case.)

3. The officers reasonably determined that George Floyd was suffering from Excited Delirium

In 2018, the MPD published a report on the use of ketamine in excited delirium. Attached to this report is an authoritative document on excited delirium entitled “White Paper Report on Excited Delirium”. A white paper is an authoritative report. The MPD attached this white paper because it was considered by the MPD the most authoritative document on excited delirium syndrome (ExDS).

The report specifies the nature of ExDS, the symptoms of ExDS, as well as what police officers should consider when dealing with those they suspect of suffering from ExDS. The report is long. First, let’s backtrack and establish that the officers did in fact suspect excited delirium. WaPo hosts the original government complaint:

Officer Lane said, “I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.” The defendant said, “That’s why we have him on his stomach.”

It must be understood that the public does not yet have enough information to conclude whether the police were accurate in their assessment of ExDS. We have some information indicating that the determination is correct, but absent the full body cam recording, we are unable to make a complete judgment on this point. This is discouraging, because the entire case rests on this point. We know that two officers believed he was experiencing ExDS, and that the other two officers did not comment to the contrary. We also know that George Floyd had some symptoms of ExDS, but we do not know if he had all symptoms of ExDS, or if he had any symptoms indicating the contrary. Below are the symptoms, affixed with whether we know he experienced the symptom or not:

  • Sweating [Y]
  • Police Noncompliance [Y]
  • Lack of Tiring [Y]
  • Unusual Strength [?]
  • Pain Tolerance [?]
  • Tachypnea [?]
  • Tactile Hyperthermia [?]
  • Bizarre behavior generating calls to police [Y]
  • Suspected or known psychostimulant drug or alcohol intoxication [Y]
  • Erratic or violent behavior [?]
  • Ongoing struggle despite futility [Y]
  • Yelling/shouting/guttural sounds [?]
  • Agitation [Y]
  • Inappropriately Clothed [N]
  • Mirror/Glass Attraction [?]
  • Suspected or known psychiatric illness [N]
  • Failure to recognize or respond to police presence at the scene [likely N]

Some of these symptoms can only be determined from body cameras. Unfortunately, other symptoms can only be determined by the officers’ account. It is not possible to know whether he was experiencing tactile hyperthermia except by asking the officers who had touched his skin. We will have to work with these limitations in our analysis of the event. However, that both the brand new officer (Lane) and the veteran officer (Chauvin) suspected ExDS is not poor evidence. And that no officer objected to this determination must also be considered.

There are also symptoms that we know in hindsight, but which the officers did not know. For instance, George Floyd had a history of stimulant abuse, as detailed in his arrest log, with four previous arrests involving drugs.


The White Paper goes on to describe the dangers of excited delirium, both to the officer and the suspect. This information is important, and explains why the officers responded as they did:

Given the irrational and potentially violent, dangerous, and lethal behavior of an ExDS subject, any LEO interaction with a person in this situation risks significant injury or death to either the LEO or the ExDS subject who has a potentially lethal medical syndrome. This already challenging situation has the potential for intense public scrutiny coupled with the expectation of a perfect outcome. Anything less creates a situation of potential public outrage. Unfortunately, this dangerous medical situation makes perfect outcomes difficult in many circumstances.”

  • “LEOs must also be aware that remorse, normal fear and understanding of surroundings, and rational thoughts for safety are absent in such subjects.”
  • “ExDS subjects are known to be irrational, often violent and relatively impervious to pain. Unfortunately, almost everything taught to LEOs about control of subjects relies on a suspect to either be rational, appropriate, or to comply with painful stimuli. Tools and tactics available to LEOs (such as pepper spray, impact batons, joint lock maneuvers, punches and kicks, and ECD’s, especially when used for pain compliance) that are traditionally effective in controlling resisting subjects, are likely to be less effective on ExDS subjects.”
  • “The goals of LEOs in these situations should be to 1) recognize possible ExDS, contain the subject, and call for EMS; 2) take the subject into custody quickly, safely, and efficiently if necessary; and 3) then immediately turn the care of the subject over to EMS personnel when they arrive for treatment and transport to definitive medical care.”
  • “In those cases where a death occurs while in custody, there is the additional difficulty of separating any potential contribution of control measures from the underlying pathology. For example, was death due to the police control tool, or to positional asphyxia, or from ExDS, or from interplay of all these factors? Even in the situation where all caregivers agree that a patient is in an active delirious state, there is no proof of the most safe and effective control measure or therapy for what is most likely an extremely agitated patient.”
  • “There are well-documented cases of ExDS deaths with minimal restraint such as handcuffs without ECD use. This underscores that this is a potentially fatal syndrome in and of itself, sometimes reversible when expert medical treatment is immediately available”.

Each of these bullet points is of the utmost importance in understanding Chauvin’s state of mind. These points must be re-read and thoroughly understood before pronouncing judgment on an officer who was simply following these statements during the arrest. If you are skimming this article I advise you to spend time on these bullet points. Remember: the officer’s job is to follow protocol, not to re-write protocol during an arrest. It is the politician’s job to ensure that the protocols are correct, no the police officer’s.

There has been some controversy in the media regarding the legitimacy of ExDS as a true medical condition. It should be mentioned that ExDS is recognized by the American College of Emergency Physicians as a true medical emergency, and ACEP played a role in drafting the White Paper for ExDS. But regardless of its legitimacy, ExDS is recognized by the Minneapolis Police Department. It bears repeating that Officer Chauvin is not tasked with determining the legitimacy of the syndromes which his department and local government already recognizes. Any question of the legitimacy of ExDS must be lodged against the government of Minneapolis — Mayor Frey — and the MPD, not Officer Chauvin.

4. Neck restraint is common in ExDS, and ExDS suspects have died in all types of restraint

As noted earlier, the government complaint against Chauvin states that the officers suspected excited delirium:

Lane asked, “should we roll him on his side?” and the defendant said, “No, staying put where we got him.” Officer Lane said, “I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.” The defendant said, “That’s why we have him on his stomach.”

This excerpt is of twofold importance. First, it demonstrates that two officers suspected excited delirium. Second, it demonstrates that Chauvin was restraining Floyd in this position because he suspected excited delirium (“that’s why we have him on his stomach”). Restraining an individual on his stomach is common in ExDS encounters. This is called “prone restraint”. In fact, it is often the recommended form of restraint until the officers can safely put the suspect in a different position:

As mentioned before, people experiencing EXD are highly agitated, violent, and show signs of unexpected strength so it is not surprising that most require physical restraint. The prone maximal restraint position (PMRP, also known as “hobble” or “hogtie”), where the person’s ankles and wrists are bound together behind their back, has been used extensively by field personnel. In far fewer cases, persons have been tied to a hospital gurney or manually held prone with knee pressure on the back or neck.

Two years ago, the 8th circuit ruled on a case involving both prone restraint and ExDS, writing that officers are entitled to qualified immunity in cases involving prone restraint, specifically denying 4th amendment privilege against excessive force:

Officers determined that keeping Layton in a prone position was best given his continued resistance, and Baker pressed Layton’s shoulders to the ground while Groby held Layton’s thighs […] this court has not deemed prone restraint unconstitutional in and of itself the few times we have addressed the issue […] Under these cases, there is no clearly established right against the use of prone restraints for a suspect that has been resisting.

Now, qualified immunity is just that: qualified. The court ruled that prone restraint is not necessarily excessive in suspects who have been resisting arrest, even if that suspect is experiencing ExDS. This does not mean prone restraint is always justified, but that it isn’t always unjustified. We still must examine the use of prone restraint on a case-by-case basis.

Informational Asymmetry: what the police and EMTs know, and what the public knows

It’s important to understand that the public — including journalists — are not well-versed in ExDS, and consequently do not have a good intuition as to what constitutes excessive force. As noted in the white paper, “there is no proof of the most safe and effective control measure,” “any LEO interaction with a person in this situation risks significant injury or death”, “this already challenging situation has the potential for intense public scrutiny coupled with the expectation of a perfect outcome […] Unfortunately, this dangerous medical situation makes perfect outcomes difficult […].” It would helpful here to examine ExDS in depth, and compare it to the George Floyd case.

4.1 ExDS Encounters Explored

Willard Truckenmiller

Willard Truckenmiler was a sheriff’s deputy. While celebrating his birthday, he began to display “agitated and unusual behavior”. When officers arrived on the scene — many of them his colleagues— he did not recognize them and assumed a fighting stance. The responding officers suspected ExDS. The officers “handcuffed him and forced him to into a seated position on the ground”, and EMS personnel gave him ketamine. Moments later he experienced trouble breathing and went into cardiac arrest. He died two days later.

In the case of Truckenmiller, it is unreasonable to assume the police acted on prejudice — Truckenmiller was a colleague and police officer. It is unreasonable to assume that his cardiac arrest was due to use of force, because he was not held in prone restraint and was quickly given ketamine by the EMS. Despite all of this, Truckenmiller experienced trouble breathing, had a heart attack, and died. This demonstrates that ExDS is “potentially fatal syndrome in and of itself”, as the white paper used by the MPD notes. It is also proof that ExDS deaths are not necessarily caused by excessive force or prejudice.

Roy Scott

Roy Scott was 65 years old. Police were called to his residence. After coming outside with a pipe in his hand and pulling a knife out of his pocket, police decided to pat him down. The police handcuffed him and began patting him down when he began experiencing extreme emotional distress. The police tried to deescalate verbally, which did not work. They then tried keeping the suspect on his back, which did not work. They momentarily placed him in the prone position, and even engaged in neck restraint for less than a minute. The police are calm the entire time — one officer tells the other officer to “just keep holding him, he’s going to keep rolling around, he’s going to hurt himself”. The police eventually place him on his side in the recovery position, which is a candidate for the safest restraint position in ExDS encounters. They hold his head with their palms so that he doesn’t bang it on the ground.

The Roy Scott video — linked above — may just be the best case recorded of how police should deal with ExDS. Everything they did was correct. They went above and beyond in deescalating the situation. The officers had compassion for Roy Scott.

But Roy Scott still died. How?

As the Journal of Emergency Medical Services notes,

“The usual response by subjects to restraints is to either accept that fighting is futile or continue to be verbally abusive. The patient with excited delirium, however, continues to fight the restraints until cardiac arrest occurs.”

This is what happened to Roy Scott. It did not matter how the officers restrained him, because he would fight against the restraints past the point of exhaustion and into cardiac arrest.

More Cases of Note

  • It takes four officers to restrain this man experiencing ExDS in prone restraint until the EMT arrives (likely with ketamine).
  • In this case from 2011, the officers used a taser and knee-to-back prone-restraint.
  • In this more recent video, it takes six officers, a taser, and multiple batons to restrain the suspect. Even with six officers restraining him, he is still able to get halfway up. At 6:14 in the video, a Black police officer kicks the suspect near the head and then applies force near the suspect’s neck — this is appropriate use of force, even though it appears unnecessary, because the suspect was an extreme threat. This particular ExDS suspect was able to cause facial injuries to the officers despite being overpowered 6-to-1. As the white paper notes, ExDS suspects often “show signs of unexpected strength”.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Starrider said:

I’m sick of COVID-19. I’m sick of black vs. white. I’m sick of Democrats vs. Republicans. I’m sick of *** vs. straight. I’m sick of Christians vs atheists. I’m REALLY sick of the media. I’m sick of no one being allowed to think what they want & feel what they do without offending someone. I am sick of the nosey people who call the cops when anyone does anything they don’t approve of. I am sick of blaming the whole for the sins of a few.
We’re one race—the human race. You want to support system" rel="">support President Trump? You do you. It’s your choice. You want to support system" rel="">support Biden? Fine... also your choice! You want to believe in God? Okay, believe in God. You want to believe in magical creatures that fly around & sprinkle fairy dust to make life better? Awesome... you do you.
BUT stop thrusting your beliefs on others & not being able to deal with the fact that they don’t have the same exact mind-set as you. Having our own minds is what makes us all individual and beautiful. If you can’t handle the fact that you may have a friend that has opposing views as you, then you are not any better than the bigots and the racists. I don’t have to agree with everything you believe to be a decent human being & your friend.

 

 

Starr

Geez Starr.....you hit it out of the Park ... again.......(but I was so looking forward to another shot of "fairy dust")......

 

Seems I just heard those bells ringing....(name that movie)........another Angel just got her wings.....(you).....      CL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, coorslite21 said:

Geez Starr.....you hit it out of the Park ... again.......(but I was so looking forward to another shot of "fairy dust")......

 

Seems I just heard those bells ringing....(name that movie)........another Angel just got her wings.....(you).....      CL

It's a Wonderful Life

 

Jimmy Stewart was George Bailey

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

TITLE: Coleman Hughes: The Empirical Problems With 'Systemic Racism'

SOURCE: PhilosophyInsights

 

 

I am offended by those who say that I am responsible for 'systemic racism'. If you believe that there's a large swath of the American population that falls into this bucket, then you are RACIST based upon the Websters Dictionary definition.

 

Indy

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, bigwave said:

I thought he looked like this:

Derek Chauvin Could Receive $1 Million In Pension

vs this:

1*5ti98X2J-UYqo021bMlXDA.jpeg

 

Yeah the guy that has a "police" uniform on has had his nose broken and the guy in the orange jumpsuit on does not

I doubled checked my source on these photos and the source was posted by Brit Hume. I believe it is the same guy. 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/17/2020 at 8:26 PM, Bama Girl said:

Another Side To The George Floyd Death:

 

https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911


 

Why Derek Chauvin May Get Off His Murder Charge

A deeper look at the policies behind the death of George Floyd

Gavrilo David
Gavrilo David
Follow
Jun 11 · 24 min read
 
 
 
 
 
1*5ti98X2J-UYqo021bMlXDA.jpeg?q=20
1*5ti98X2J-UYqo021bMlXDA.jpeg

Pictured: Derek Chauvin (left) and George Floyd

The world has united in protest after a graphic video emerged showing a Black man dying under the restraint of a White police officer. The victim, George Floyd, was in clear distress. He was pinned to the ground by three officers, with one officer — Derek Chauvin — placing a knee on his neck. For over five minutes, he tells the officers that he is unable to breathe. George Floyd died as horrified bystanders told the officers they were killing him.

The video is unquestionably horrific.

But in our rush to condemn an aggressive use of force and pursue justice for George Floyd, we have ignored crucial information which is necessary in judging the conduct of the officers. While nothing can absolve George Floyd’s death, these facts do cast doubt on the appropriateness of a murder charge for Chauvin, and paint a more nuanced picture of the events leading up to the tragic encounter.

There are six crucial pieces of information — six facts — that have been largely omitted from discussion on the Chauvin’s conduct. Taken together, they likely exonerate the officer of a murder charge. Rather than indicating illegal and excessive force, they instead show an officer who rigidly followed the procedures deemed appropriate by the Minneapolis Police Department (MPD). The evidence points to the MPD and the local political establishment, rather than the individual officer, as ultimately responsible for George Floyd’s death.

These six facts are as follows:

  1. George Floyd was experiencing cardiopulmonary and psychological distress minutes before he was placed on the ground, let alone had a knee to his neck.
  2. The Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) allows the use of neck restraint on suspects who actively resist arrest, and George Floyd actively resisted arrest on two occasions, including immediately prior to neck restraint being used.
  3. The officers were recorded on their body cams assessing George Floyd as suffering from “excited delirium syndrome” (ExDS), a condition which the MPD considers an extreme threat to both the officers and the suspect. A white paper used by the MPD acknowledges that ExDS suspects may die irrespective of force involved. The officers’ response to this situation was in line with MPD guidelines for ExDS.
  4. Restraining the suspect on his or her abdomen (prone restraint) is a common tactic in ExDS situations, and the white paper used by the MPD instructs the officers to control the suspect until paramedics arrive.
  5. Floyd’s autopsy revealed a potentially lethal concoction of drugs — not just a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl, but also methamphetamine. Together with his history of drug abuse and two serious heart conditions, Floyd’s condition was exceptionally and unusually fragile.
  6. Chauvin’s neck restraint is unlikely to have exerted a dangerous amount of force to Floyd’s neck. Floyd is shown on video able to lift his head and neck, and a robust study on double-knee restraints showed a median force exertion of approximately approximately 105lbs.

Let’s be clear: the actions of Chauvin and the other officers were absolutely wrong. But they were also in line with MPD rules and procedures for the condition which they determined was George Floyd was suffering from. An act that would normally be considered a clear and heinous abuse of force, such as a knee-to-neck restraint on a suspect suffering from pulmonary distress, can be legitimatized if there are overriding concerns not known to bystanders but known to the officers. In the case of George Floyd, the overriding concern was that he was suffering from ExDS, given a number of relevant facts known to the officers. This was not known to the bystanders, who only saw a man with pulmonary distress pinned down with a knee on his neck. While the officers may still be found guilty of manslaughter, the probability of a guilty verdict for the murder charge is low, and the public should be aware of this well in advance of the verdict.

While we should pursue justice for George Floyd, we should be absolutely sure that we are pursuing justice against his real killers. A careful examination of the evidence points to the procedures and rules of the MPD, rather than the police officers following these procedures and rules, as the real killers of George Floyd. If anyone murdered George Floyd, it was the MPD and the local political establishment. This is why Attorney General Keith Ellison has expressed how difficult a conviction will be.

“Trying this case will not be an easy thing. Winning a conviction will be hard,” Ellison said.

There is still much to the case that remains unknown. As new information emerges, we should adjust our view accordingly. But a close inspection of all current information does not point to a murder charge being appropriate.

1. George Floyd’s symptoms started well before being restrained to the ground

From the original government complaint, we know that he was falling to the ground and claiming he couldn’t breathe while still standing up.

Mr. Floyd stiffened up, fell to the ground, and told the officers he was claustrophobic […] Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still […] While standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe.

From the 911 transcript, we know that George Floyd was acting “drunk” and “not in control of himself” before the police were called. The 911 caller is concerned that such an “awfully drunk” man would attempt to operate a vehicle. This is an important departure from the earlier media reports, which indicated the officers were only called over a counterfeit bill.

“Um someone comes our store and give us fake bills and we realize it before he left the store, and we ran back outside, they was sitting on their car […], and he’s sitting on his car cause he is awfully drunk and he’s not in control of himself” […] He is not acting right […] and [he’s] not acting right so and [he] started to go, drive the car.”

This information on its own is of no significance. In fact, aggressively restraining someone who is experiencing distress only makes that restraint all the more heinous. But as will be seen later, when this information is seen in light of George Floyd’s behavior, it led the officers to suspect he was suffering from ExDS — a far more dangerous scenario than simple distress.

2. The Minneapolis Police Department policy authorizes neck restraint for actively resisting suspects

The Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) recognizes two types of resistance to arrest. There is active resistance, defined as follows:

a response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. A subject engages in active resistance when engaging in physical actions (or verbal behavior reflecting an intention) to make it more difficult for officers to achieve actual physical control.

And passive resistance, defined as follows:

a response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. This is behavior initiated by a subject, when the subject does not comply with verbal or physical control efforts, yet the subject does not attempt to defeat an officer’s control efforts.

Passive resistance is when a suspect is non-compliant in an arrest, but will not act to stop an officer from enacting an arrest. Imagine a child in a supermarket who has a meltdown and drops to the floor — this is passive resistance, as guardian can easily pick up the child. Now imagine a child who not only drops to the floor but pulls against their guardian. This is active resistance.

The MPD allows the use of force in action resistance. Relevantly, the MPD allows neck restraint. It is defined as:

Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints.

There are two types of neck restraint. What we are interested is in conscious neck restraint, defined as:

The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure.

The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting.

We know from the original government complaint that Floyd was actively resisting, because they admit as much:

Mr. Floyd actively resisted being handcuffed.

We also know from the original complaint that he resisted again:

The officers made several attempts to get Mr. Floyd in the backseat of squad 320 from the driver’s side. Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still.

While standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe. The defendant went to the passenger side and tried to get Mr. Floyd into the car from that side and Lane and Kueng assisted.

The defendant pulled Mr. Floyd out of the passenger side of the squad car at 8:19:38 p.m. and Mr. Floyd went to the ground face down and still handcuffed

The three officers were unable to keep him in the police car. The little video evidence we have indicates that there was a struggle. “The defendant pulled Mr. Floyd out of the passenger side of the squad car” likely because they were unable to close the squad car door due to his resistance. A longer video was posted by the popular activist Shaun King which indicates a struggle. Shaun King believes this video shows the officers beating Floyd, however the government (who has access to the body cams) did not write this in their complaint (which they would, as it would help their case).

There appears to be two cases of active resistance, including immediately prior to prone restraint. As such, neck restraint was permissible in order to control George Floyd. Remember that the MPD guideline is to use light to moderate force. An officer placing a knee on a suspect’s neck does not mean he is exerting full force, and there is evidence that light to moderate pressure was used on Floyd. Given that Floyd was saying he couldn’t breathe while resisting being placed in the police car, the officers could not reasonably believe that light to moderate pressure would cause his proclaimed symptoms.

For reasons not yet known, Minneapolis is refusing to release the officers’ body cams of this moment. This information is important in order to determine how Floyd was acting the exact moment the officers pulled him from the police car. It is unconscionable that this information has not been released to the public. We must assume, given all relevant information already known, that their reason for pulling him out of the car was his continued resistance as noted in the government complaint.

(Note: the original page for the MPD detailing use of force has been wiped. Here is an archive hosted by — for some reason — the San Francisco police department. And here is an archive of the archive, just in case.)

3. The officers reasonably determined that George Floyd was suffering from Excited Delirium

In 2018, the MPD published a report on the use of ketamine in excited delirium. Attached to this report is an authoritative document on excited delirium entitled “White Paper Report on Excited Delirium”. A white paper is an authoritative report. The MPD attached this white paper because it was considered by the MPD the most authoritative document on excited delirium syndrome (ExDS).

The report specifies the nature of ExDS, the symptoms of ExDS, as well as what police officers should consider when dealing with those they suspect of suffering from ExDS. The report is long. First, let’s backtrack and establish that the officers did in fact suspect excited delirium. WaPo hosts the original government complaint:

Officer Lane said, “I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.” The defendant said, “That’s why we have him on his stomach.”

It must be understood that the public does not yet have enough information to conclude whether the police were accurate in their assessment of ExDS. We have some information indicating that the determination is correct, but absent the full body cam recording, we are unable to make a complete judgment on this point. This is discouraging, because the entire case rests on this point. We know that two officers believed he was experiencing ExDS, and that the other two officers did not comment to the contrary. We also know that George Floyd had some symptoms of ExDS, but we do not know if he had all symptoms of ExDS, or if he had any symptoms indicating the contrary. Below are the symptoms, affixed with whether we know he experienced the symptom or not:

  • Sweating [Y]
  • Police Noncompliance [Y]
  • Lack of Tiring [Y]
  • Unusual Strength [?]
  • Pain Tolerance [?]
  • Tachypnea [?]
  • Tactile Hyperthermia [?]
  • Bizarre behavior generating calls to police [Y]
  • Suspected or known psychostimulant drug or alcohol intoxication [Y]
  • Erratic or violent behavior [?]
  • Ongoing struggle despite futility [Y]
  • Yelling/shouting/guttural sounds [?]
  • Agitation [Y]
  • Inappropriately Clothed [N]
  • Mirror/Glass Attraction [?]
  • Suspected or known psychiatric illness [N]
  • Failure to recognize or respond to police presence at the scene [likely N]

Some of these symptoms can only be determined from body cameras. Unfortunately, other symptoms can only be determined by the officers’ account. It is not possible to know whether he was experiencing tactile hyperthermia except by asking the officers who had touched his skin. We will have to work with these limitations in our analysis of the event. However, that both the brand new officer (Lane) and the veteran officer (Chauvin) suspected ExDS is not poor evidence. And that no officer objected to this determination must also be considered.

There are also symptoms that we know in hindsight, but which the officers did not know. For instance, George Floyd had a history of stimulant abuse, as detailed in his arrest log, with four previous arrests involving drugs.


The White Paper goes on to describe the dangers of excited delirium, both to the officer and the suspect. This information is important, and explains why the officers responded as they did:

Given the irrational and potentially violent, dangerous, and lethal behavior of an ExDS subject, any LEO interaction with a person in this situation risks significant injury or death to either the LEO or the ExDS subject who has a potentially lethal medical syndrome. This already challenging situation has the potential for intense public scrutiny coupled with the expectation of a perfect outcome. Anything less creates a situation of potential public outrage. Unfortunately, this dangerous medical situation makes perfect outcomes difficult in many circumstances.”

  • “LEOs must also be aware that remorse, normal fear and understanding of surroundings, and rational thoughts for safety are absent in such subjects.”
  • “ExDS subjects are known to be irrational, often violent and relatively impervious to pain. Unfortunately, almost everything taught to LEOs about control of subjects relies on a suspect to either be rational, appropriate, or to comply with painful stimuli. Tools and tactics available to LEOs (such as pepper spray, impact batons, joint lock maneuvers, punches and kicks, and ECD’s, especially when used for pain compliance) that are traditionally effective in controlling resisting subjects, are likely to be less effective on ExDS subjects.”
  • “The goals of LEOs in these situations should be to 1) recognize possible ExDS, contain the subject, and call for EMS; 2) take the subject into custody quickly, safely, and efficiently if necessary; and 3) then immediately turn the care of the subject over to EMS personnel when they arrive for treatment and transport to definitive medical care.”
  • “In those cases where a death occurs while in custody, there is the additional difficulty of separating any potential contribution of control measures from the underlying pathology. For example, was death due to the police control tool, or to positional asphyxia, or from ExDS, or from interplay of all these factors? Even in the situation where all caregivers agree that a patient is in an active delirious state, there is no proof of the most safe and effective control measure or therapy for what is most likely an extremely agitated patient.”
  • “There are well-documented cases of ExDS deaths with minimal restraint such as handcuffs without ECD use. This underscores that this is a potentially fatal syndrome in and of itself, sometimes reversible when expert medical treatment is immediately available”.

Each of these bullet points is of the utmost importance in understanding Chauvin’s state of mind. These points must be re-read and thoroughly understood before pronouncing judgment on an officer who was simply following these statements during the arrest. If you are skimming this article I advise you to spend time on these bullet points. Remember: the officer’s job is to follow protocol, not to re-write protocol during an arrest. It is the politician’s job to ensure that the protocols are correct, no the police officer’s.

There has been some controversy in the media regarding the legitimacy of ExDS as a true medical condition. It should be mentioned that ExDS is recognized by the American College of Emergency Physicians as a true medical emergency, and ACEP played a role in drafting the White Paper for ExDS. But regardless of its legitimacy, ExDS is recognized by the Minneapolis Police Department. It bears repeating that Officer Chauvin is not tasked with determining the legitimacy of the syndromes which his department and local government already recognizes. Any question of the legitimacy of ExDS must be lodged against the government of Minneapolis — Mayor Frey — and the MPD, not Officer Chauvin.

4. Neck restraint is common in ExDS, and ExDS suspects have died in all types of restraint

As noted earlier, the government complaint against Chauvin states that the officers suspected excited delirium:

Lane asked, “should we roll him on his side?” and the defendant said, “No, staying put where we got him.” Officer Lane said, “I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.” The defendant said, “That’s why we have him on his stomach.”

This excerpt is of twofold importance. First, it demonstrates that two officers suspected excited delirium. Second, it demonstrates that Chauvin was restraining Floyd in this position because he suspected excited delirium (“that’s why we have him on his stomach”). Restraining an individual on his stomach is common in ExDS encounters. This is called “prone restraint”. In fact, it is often the recommended form of restraint until the officers can safely put the suspect in a different position:

As mentioned before, people experiencing EXD are highly agitated, violent, and show signs of unexpected strength so it is not surprising that most require physical restraint. The prone maximal restraint position (PMRP, also known as “hobble” or “hogtie”), where the person’s ankles and wrists are bound together behind their back, has been used extensively by field personnel. In far fewer cases, persons have been tied to a hospital gurney or manually held prone with knee pressure on the back or neck.

Two years ago, the 8th circuit ruled on a case involving both prone restraint and ExDS, writing that officers are entitled to qualified immunity in cases involving prone restraint, specifically denying 4th amendment privilege against excessive force:

Officers determined that keeping Layton in a prone position was best given his continued resistance, and Baker pressed Layton’s shoulders to the ground while Groby held Layton’s thighs […] this court has not deemed prone restraint unconstitutional in and of itself the few times we have addressed the issue […] Under these cases, there is no clearly established right against the use of prone restraints for a suspect that has been resisting.

Now, qualified immunity is just that: qualified. The court ruled that prone restraint is not necessarily excessive in suspects who have been resisting arrest, even if that suspect is experiencing ExDS. This does not mean prone restraint is always justified, but that it isn’t always unjustified. We still must examine the use of prone restraint on a case-by-case basis.

Informational Asymmetry: what the police and EMTs know, and what the public knows

It’s important to understand that the public — including journalists — are not well-versed in ExDS, and consequently do not have a good intuition as to what constitutes excessive force. As noted in the white paper, “there is no proof of the most safe and effective control measure,” “any LEO interaction with a person in this situation risks significant injury or death”, “this already challenging situation has the potential for intense public scrutiny coupled with the expectation of a perfect outcome […] Unfortunately, this dangerous medical situation makes perfect outcomes difficult […].” It would helpful here to examine ExDS in depth, and compare it to the George Floyd case.

4.1 ExDS Encounters Explored

Willard Truckenmiller

Willard Truckenmiler was a sheriff’s deputy. While celebrating his birthday, he began to display “agitated and unusual behavior”. When officers arrived on the scene — many of them his colleagues— he did not recognize them and assumed a fighting stance. The responding officers suspected ExDS. The officers “handcuffed him and forced him to into a seated position on the ground”, and EMS personnel gave him ketamine. Moments later he experienced trouble breathing and went into cardiac arrest. He died two days later.

In the case of Truckenmiller, it is unreasonable to assume the police acted on prejudice — Truckenmiller was a colleague and police officer. It is unreasonable to assume that his cardiac arrest was due to use of force, because he was not held in prone restraint and was quickly given ketamine by the EMS. Despite all of this, Truckenmiller experienced trouble breathing, had a heart attack, and died. This demonstrates that ExDS is “potentially fatal syndrome in and of itself”, as the white paper used by the MPD notes. It is also proof that ExDS deaths are not necessarily caused by excessive force or prejudice.

Roy Scott

Roy Scott was 65 years old. Police were called to his residence. After coming outside with a pipe in his hand and pulling a knife out of his pocket, police decided to pat him down. The police handcuffed him and began patting him down when he began experiencing extreme emotional distress. The police tried to deescalate verbally, which did not work. They then tried keeping the suspect on his back, which did not work. They momentarily placed him in the prone position, and even engaged in neck restraint for less than a minute. The police are calm the entire time — one officer tells the other officer to “just keep holding him, he’s going to keep rolling around, he’s going to hurt himself”. The police eventually place him on his side in the recovery position, which is a candidate for the safest restraint position in ExDS encounters. They hold his head with their palms so that he doesn’t bang it on the ground.

The Roy Scott video — linked above — may just be the best case recorded of how police should deal with ExDS. Everything they did was correct. They went above and beyond in deescalating the situation. The officers had compassion for Roy Scott.

But Roy Scott still died. How?

As the Journal of Emergency Medical Services notes,

“The usual response by subjects to restraints is to either accept that fighting is futile or continue to be verbally abusive. The patient with excited delirium, however, continues to fight the restraints until cardiac arrest occurs.”

This is what happened to Roy Scott. It did not matter how the officers restrained him, because he would fight against the restraints past the point of exhaustion and into cardiac arrest.

More Cases of Note

  • It takes four officers to restrain this man experiencing ExDS in prone restraint until the EMT arrives (likely with ketamine).
  • In this case from 2011, the officers used a taser and knee-to-back prone-restraint.
  • In this more recent video, it takes six officers, a taser, and multiple batons to restrain the suspect. Even with six officers restraining him, he is still able to get halfway up. At 6:14 in the video, a Black police officer kicks the suspect near the head and then applies force near the suspect’s neck — this is appropriate use of force, even though it appears unnecessary, because the suspect was an extreme threat. This particular ExDS suspect was able to cause facial injuries to the officers despite being overpowered 6-to-1. As the white paper notes, ExDS suspects often “show signs of unexpected strength”.

 

 

 

I have thought about this post more and if true, explains why the Prosecutor in Minneapolis was slow and cautious to bring charges. If the police were following approved and sanctioned procedures by the MPD, then a higher conviction - Murder 2, Murder 3, or even Manslaughter - may be difficult to get.

 

On the other hand, in Atlanta the Prosecutor there for the Rayshard Brooks incident charged the related officers with what I believe were over zealous and unachievable charges. The most likely scenario here is acquittal and I think that the Prosecutor in Atlanta will be shown to be politically influenced in the handling of this case.

 

In either instance, I think that the LAME-STREAM Media's reporting and handling of these situations has set the US on a path of sheer disappointment and crushed expectations when these verdicts are finally rendered. Get ready for bumpy times ahead (and by bumpy times, I mean more cities burning to the ground).

 

Indy

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Bama Girl said:

I doubled checked my source on these photos and the source was posted by Brit Hume. I believe it is the same guy. 
 

I'll I'm saying is seeing is believing. 

 

BTW I don't trust brit hume either.

 

Peace,

 

Come on RV.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.